← Chief Change Officer
Chief Change Officer
#293 Wayland Lum: From Booth to the Battlefield of the Mind
00:25:39
Wayland Lum walked away from big names like NVIDIA, Korn Ferry, and Chicago Booth out of conviction. In this episode, he shares how real leadership starts when you stop borrowing prestige and start building purpose. From coaching MBAs to private equity execs, he’s here to redefine leadership for a generation raised analog and reinvented digital.
Loading summary
Transcript33 lines
- [00:00]
USAA Auto Insurance
Auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it. So don't get stuck paying more for less coverage. Switch to USAA Auto Insurance and you could start saving money in no time. Get a quote today. Restrictions apply.
- [00:13]
Wayland Long
USAA I'm Neil, founder of Klaver. When I found ceramics, I realized my calling was to give others the space to be creative. So I set out to open my own studio. Having a Chase Inc. Card has allowed us to grow and bring people together. Now we're molding a creative community.
- [00:29]
Chase Inc.
Chase Inc. Business Cash Card Market. You can earn up to 5% cash back on business essentials so your business can go from here to possible Chase for business. Make more. What's yours? Real business owner compensated for their participation cards issued by JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. If you've been having your McDonald's sausage McMuffin with an iced coffee from somewhere else, now is a great time to reconsider.
- [00:56]
McDonald's
In the Pacific Northwest, it's never too cold for an iced coffee in the morning. Grab yourself a medium caramel, French vanilla or classic iced coffee for just $2.29. Warning beverage may cause craving for McMuffin or hash browns. Prices and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer or combo meal.
- [01:17]
Shopify
Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. But for millions of businesses, Shopify is the ultimate partner. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% ecommerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Build a stunning online store with Shopify's ready to use templates, boost content with AI powered product descriptions, page headlines and enhance photography. Marketing is easy with built in tools for email and social media campaigns. Plus, Shopify simplifies everything from inventory to shipping and returns. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com try go to shopify.com try shopify.com try.
- [02:24]
Vince Chan
Hi everyone. Welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer hi, I'm Vince Chan, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change, progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today's guest is from Austin, Texas in the United States. Wayland Long. His career in HR has nothing short of remarkable. Back in college he studied industrial and organizational psychology. Then, after graduation, he worked at some of the biggest and most influential institutions in the world, including the highest valued company of the present day, Nvidia, and a global organizational consulting firm, Coinferry. He also spent eight years at Chicago Booth School of Business, helping MBA students shape their career futures. Now he's in Texas, running his own leadership practice. On this show, we'll explore three areas of interest. First, his career evolution from big corporations to consulting to business school and private practice. Second, the eight principles of modern leadership he creates for his leadership clients. Third, his vision for human and AI coaching partnerships. Let's get started. Wayland, welcome to our show. Finally. I got you on the call with me.
- [04:26]
Wayland Long
Yeah, no, it's great. Thanks for having me, Vince. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
- [04:31]
Vince Chan
If my memory serves me right, last time we met in person it was in London. And last time I went to Texas, it was before COVID for South by Southwest. The time flies. Yet I'm happy that we've kept in contact, we've reunited at some point. And now you come to my show to share your wisdom and insights with the audience. Thank you so much. How are you doing?
- [05:03]
Wayland Long
I'm doing well, Vince. Yeah. It's another balmy day in Austin, Texas, and I'm looking forward to the summer as we chatted about before. So. Yeah, and also excited to be with you and have a great conversation.
- [05:17]
Vince Chan
Weilan, let's start with your history. Your career in HR has been nothing short of remarkable. Back in college, you studied industrial and organizational psychology. Then after graduation, you've worked at some of the biggest and most influential institutions in the world, including the highest value company of the present day, Nvidia, a global organizational consulting firm, Coinferry. You've even spent eight years in Chicago and London shaping the careers of MBA students at the Top 1 Business School, Chicago Booth. Now you're in Texas running your own leadership practice. Can you walk us through your career evolution?
- [06:13]
Wayland Long
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Vince. So I think early on, going back to undergrad, I knew early on that I had a desire to meld the disciplines of psychology and business. And so it was a very easy choice for me to study industrial organizational psychology. Did that at San Jose State. Go Spartans. And. And from that experience launched my career into hr, which got me close to talent, organizational talent, first in Silicon Valley, in high tech, and then more broadly across to New York and then other parts of the country as well. And I would say against the thing that has been a prevailing theme in my career is how to work with and provide value to the best talent in the world. And so if you look at my career trajectory, it's really been a journey and a sort of quest, if you will, to find who those individuals are or those groups of people and be able to work closely with them, to really help them to develop their maximum potential and become the now the folk that I have now, the leaders that they are meant to become. And by doing so, we know that the world is more positively impacted and becomes a better place.
- [07:30]
Vince Chan
Here's what I find truly admiring and courageous of you. You've taken the leap from these large, prestigious organizations to running your own leadership practice. Many people will shine away from that, sticking to the comfort zone, the stable paycheck and the prestige of a big corporate name and a nice business card. But you did not. What was the pivotal aha moment that led you down this path of building your own practice? Was there a specific experience that made you think, this is it. I just need to do this? And once you made that decision, how did the transition actually play out?
- [08:23]
Wayland Long
Yeah, so the decision was really many years in the making. And it really started. Vince, as I coach a lot of the leaders that I work with and understand more about them, it really does start with early formative experiences. Right. Growing up, when I was thinking about career and stuff, I actually thought I was going to be an artist like my dad. He was a graphic artist. I enjoyed oil painting, using Prismacolor, drawing, et cetera. And that creativity has always stayed with me. And then when I moved into business psychology, industrial organizational psychology, that creativity and wanting to innovate really manifested itself. And now this new area of interest for me, that became my career. And so I always had that. And when I was at these larger organizations, I felt that I wasn't fully able to express that sort of creativity and maybe perhaps fully work with leaders in the way that I wanted to, which would be much deeper, more transformational, and really wanting them to make significant changes in terms of who they were and then in turn make changes in who they were as leaders. One thing that I often coach my clients on, and indeed as coaches and consultants, particularly as coaches, we have and leaders, we've got to walk our talk. And so we cannot simply be coaching other leaders on what they may need to do and how they need to change, but we also need to step into our own change ourselves and be held accountable for that. And so I'd often coach my leaders to be bold, courageous in their decision making, to really go with their intuition, follow their heart, and really Step out into the directions in which they believe they need to, they need to go. And when it came down to the fundamental question I asked myself is way, are you going to stay within a large organization, rely on the reputation of this firm, the resources, the beautiful steel and glass building that you walk into every day and with all the nice facilities and the office environment that you have privilege of having access to, or are you going to go step out and bet on yourself? And when I frame the question like that, Vince, the answer became very clear. I had to go step out and bet on myself as I would have coached and encouraged my leaders that I work with to do. And. And I can say that I have not regretted a single moment. It's been absolutely amazing.
- [11:00]
Vince Chan
I am 200% agreeable with your choice in walking the walk and talking the talk. In a world where a lot of people just talk, a lot of times they talk very, very loud without much substance at all. Walking the walk and talking to talk becomes very precious and courageous. Unfortunately, it is also something that is silenced by the noise in the world. But that's what makes a true leader.
- [11:37]
Wayland Long
I absolutely agree.
- [11:38]
Vince Chan
You are a coach, yet I'm curious, have you ever been on the other side of the coaching relationship? What was it like being coached and how has that experience shaped your approach with your own clients today?
- [11:56]
Wayland Long
Yeah, early on in my career, when I was just starting out in hr, I actually did hire a coach for myself and my coach. The reason why I hired him, and this is way back in the gosh, early, early 2000s, I wanted to become a coach. And therefore I thought a good way to do that would be to get mentorship and be able to learn from a really experienced executive coach. And I remember, I think one of the most important things that he taught me because he used to continuously push me and say, waylon, you can do this. You can work with these types of leaders. You can have the type of impact that you want to have with a certain level of leader. And at the time, Vince, I didn't quite believe him or I didn't feel ready. And that's probably understandable given I was much younger and didn't have the experience and the tools and I would say even the life experience that I have now. However, that experience of working with him has influenced the way that I develop others. And so I'm always pushing them to be more than what they envision themselves being at this point in time. And I do that with my team and certainly do that with the client leaders that I work with as well. And what I found is that when you have that expectation of people, more often than not they're able to rise to the occasion and they will become more than they have thought possible. And that's really awesome to see. I think in terms of coaching, I highly recommend that to anybody. And whatever sort of aspect of your life that you might want coaching for, I do encourage you to explore that. Of course you need to find the right person, the right fitness, but I found it for myself to be tremendously rewarding. I still work with some business coaches here and there to help me with thought partnership and just being a good counterpoint or a good thought partner as I think about growing my own business and also how I am leading others.
- [13:56]
Vince Chan
So on your LinkedIn profile you have this statement, we develop modern leaders to face the biggest threat business challenges. Speaking of leaders, who are the people you typically work with? Can you paint a picture for our listeners of the kinds of leaders you coach?
- [14:19]
Wayland Long
Yeah, absolutely. And that statement, talking about walking the talk. Then we we develop modern leaders to face their biggest challenges. That is really a derivation also of what the vision of Copperbox is, which is to prepare leaders to confront and address the greatest challenges of our time. And that is both our vision, it's also an aspirational goal that we have for our firm. And it goes beyond the realm of business and into areas such as government policy, certainly large, big problems that the world faces such as climate change and misinformation, loneliness, et cetera. And so that's our aspiration. Now how do we do that in more sort of purposeful and day to day terms is through our work with business leaders. And so one area that we are very focused on and do a lot of work in is private equity and supporting private equity operating companies and their executives. As we know, private equity moves at a very fast pace. Firms have investment theses that they need to, that they need to achieve and fulfill and they do that through the talent that they have at their portfolio companies. A lot of our work is really helping those leaders to quickly identify the areas of their leadership that need to be the gaps need to be quickly closed and to really partner with them closely at pace in order to do that. And when I mean at pace, I really mean on a quarter by quarter basis, which is the cadence of business in general. That's certainly the cadence of business within private equity where they're trying to achieve very specific objectives and goals quarter by quarter.
- [16:04]
Vince Chan
You know, we hear the term modern leadership thrown around a lot these days. I was wondering what does that actually mean to you? How would you define modern in the context of leadership?
- [16:22]
USAA Auto Insurance
Auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it. So don't get stuck paying more for less coverage. Switch to USA Auto insurance and you could start saving money in no time. Get a quote today. Restrictions apply.
- [16:39]
Chase Inc.
If you've been having your McDonald's sausage McMuffin with an iced coffee from somewhere else, now is a great time to reconsider.
- [16:48]
McDonald's
In the Pacific Northwest, it's never too cold for an iced coffee in the morning. Grab yourself a medium caramel, French vanilla or classic iced coffee for just $2.29. Warning beverage may cause craving for McMuffin or hash browns. Prices and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer or combo meal.
- [17:09]
Wayland Long
Yes, so modern leadership is really about the many demands of a leader today that didn't exist or they didn't have the those expectations put upon them. Even let's say four or five years ago pre Covid, but in a post Covid era, and particularly with the challenges that we face today societal, not to mention in business. Right. Modern leadership is required. And so how I define it, and I know we'll talk in a moment, Vince, about the eight principles, but how I really define it is taking a more timeless view on leadership based on understandings of human nature, based on understandings of patterns that we've seen occur throughout history, and based on an understanding of the on the ways in which leaders people typically react and respond to different types of stimuli in their environment. So those are just a few examples, but what we're really looking at here is understanding leaders and leadership and how to lead from a much more systemic point of view and not simply oh, I'm into I'm interacting with this individual or this group or but really understanding that individual and that group within the context of a system. And more timeless principles about how individuals and groups operate.
- [18:43]
Vince Chan
Yes, your eight principles of modern leadership. I read them all before our call today. I'm so impressed. For example, one of those is nature as majestic teacher you write, nature serves as a timeless source of wisdom. Wisdom is both ancient and modern. Here's another one. Embrace life's stages and seasons. Every person is born, lives and dies. We have seasons in life, spring, summer, fall and winter. On this show, unfortunately, we can go through all those principles in details, but could we explore those a bit? Maybe you could share some real world examples of stories that illustrate them that you use to help your clients become a modern leader to face, to embrace and to master the biggest challenges.
- [19:52]
Wayland Long
Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely, Vince. So the, the eight principles are our, our perspective, our copper box, our ethos, if you will, about how we think about modern leadership. So at the end of the day, you must help business leaders achieve their outcomes. And, and so that is first and foremost, and that being said, working with them is an opportunity to go for transformational change for the leader. And we know that when they transformational change, when they become stronger leaders, not only in work, but also in different aspects of their life, there is a much, a much more powerful cascading benefit and impact that's much more far reaching and that's what we want to help them achieve. And so when we think about the APE principles, we have that in mind that it's not simply about business outcomes, but we are confident that when we help leaders to become more modern, to achieve transformation, inevitably that is going to have great impact on the businesses that they lead and they run. So when we think about the principles, the first really, it does start with getting grounded in core purpose. And there's a lot of talk about purpose, there's a lot of talk about finding your purpose or finding your why. And in essence, it is where everything starts. Core purpose is understanding both your deeply held values, how you move in the world, what's important to you, what you'll put a stake in the ground for. It's also about the values and gifts that you bring to the world and that you want to use. We call them your superpowers. And the combination of your values and your gifts are very powerful. And when you are able to combine both of those and then channel that into your purpose, you really do become unstoppable. So I've seen that in my own life in more to have the renewed energy to really drive my business and to have the impact on leaders, but also see that in the lives of others, both my team members and also our clients. And the last thing I'll say about grounded in core, getting grounded in core purpose, is that we talk a lot about inspiration and leadership, but really to be inspirational, you yourself have to be inspired. And so what is it in the world that inspires you, that gets you up in the morning and how you're able to bring that energy, which by the way, other people can see very quickly whether you have it or not. But as a leader, it is important to have. And so how are you bringing that? So therefore, those that you lead can also be inspired because, hey, Waylon's got a light, an energy, a spark that's Being driven deep within. And that intrigues me. And as my leader, I know that he's operating from a place of a real inspiration, a real purpose, and I'm inspired by that. And secondly, Vince, it's interesting because I found time and again, and this is very consistent across organizations, is that leaders, certainly, they've got big titles, right? We work with. We work with leaders that have really big titles, really big roles, but they sometimes see leadership as a responsibility as opposed to a choice. And what I mean by that is, yeah, there are responsibilities to leadership, but leadership really starts with the choice. And so we talk about picking up the torch of leadership. And picking up the torch is a conscious choice. And there's two things to that. When you pick up the torch, you can certainly. And it's a great metaphor, you can light the way for others as a torch bearer, but at the same time, if you pick up the torch, there's. There is a bit of playing with fire, and you can get burned. So you understand that as a leader, there is going to be a certain level of personal discomfort. There's going to be sacrifice. If you're not sacrificing, then that there's an aspect of leadership, there's. That is about sacrifice. So I would argue if you're not sacrificing, then there's not full or true display of leadership on your part. Because if you didn't have to sacrifice, it'd be easy, and leadership isn't easy. And so picking up the torch, I think, is really critically important. And making that decision for every leader is this first step. And. And I guess the last thing I'll say about picking up the torch is leadership can be scary. I've found myself fearful in different situations and just had to clench my teeth and move forward. But I think one thing, perhaps, maybe might be comforting to leaders, or at least a good reminder of what you're there for and why you're there, is that fear is a precursor to courage. So these two aspects of the human condition, they always appear in that order. You do not get courage without first experiencing fear. And so as you understand that, when you understand yourself in those kinds of situations, you understand that you're probably in the places that you need to be making the decisions that you need to be making, and that's leadership.
- [24:54]
Vince Chan
Wow. As I was listening to you, two things really jumped out at me. First, you've hit on this idea that leadership is a choice. That actually takes me back to my days at Chicago Booth. There was this Professor, Linda Ginzel, who Used to drill that idea into our heads constantly. Leadership is a choice, she would say. And hearing what you talk, it's clear that idea really lines up with what you're describing. The other thing that struck me was your take on fear and courage. It reminds me of this animated movie, Inside Out. Have you seen it yourselves? They just released the sequel. The movie is all about human emotion. And there's this interesting dynamic between joy and sadness in the movie. At first they seem like totally opposites. Right. But as the story unfolds, you start to see how they're actually connected. The big lesson is that you can't really appreciate joy if you've never experienced sadness. I see a similar principle in what you are saying about fear and courage. They are not as separate as we might think they are. Two sides of the same coin, each one giving meaning to the other. The resonate with what you're getting at.
- [26:38]
Wayland Long
Yeah. So it's Vince, I love what you're sharing here. And actually I need to catch that movie myself. I've been meaning to do that because I've been hearing such great things. And when it comes to these, these sort of like these emotions that are juxtaposed or two sides of the same coin, it's a good lesson for us as leaders, generally speaking. You know, another one, as I was listening to you, that comes to mind is love, for example, the love that you have for somebody else. A deep love. And with deep love can also come profound grief. Right. When losing a loved one, let's say. And so these, these strong emotions and the best of the emotions that you can experience in the world, such as joy, such as love, they do come with also other profound emotions that can also be at times devastating in one's life. Right. Understanding both of those things, accepting that and going seeking love out anyways, or wanting to be joyful, knowing that there'll be days when there will be profound sadness and understanding and accepting that, I think is a bit of wisdom that we're talking about here in terms of modern leadership, because it's really an understanding of human nature, both the human experience for oneself, but also for others.
- [28:00]
Vince Chan
Weilan has loved us so much to reflect on and explore. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show. Leave us. Top rated reviews. Check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.
- [28:43]
Chevrolet
For all of life's adventures, the all new 2025 Chevrolet Equinox is the SUV to help you do it. It's loaded with tech including an 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen with easy access to your apps, maps, music and more. And Equinox is now available in a brand new trim named Aktiv, featuring a rugged off road inspired design for those whose passion begins where the pavement ends. The all new 2025 Chevy Equinox. It's everything you want in an SUV. Learn more at Chevy.com Equinox with the.
- [29:13]
Chase Inc.
Chase Inc. Business Unlimited card, you can earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase so your business can go from here to possible Chase for business. Make more What's Yours? Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [29:29]
Chevrolet
We interrupt this program to bring you an important Wayfair message. Wayfair's got style tips for Every Home this is Nicole Byer helping you make those rooms flyer. Today's Style Tip when it comes to making a statement, treat bold patterns like neutrals. Go wild like an untamed animal. Print area rug under a rustic farmhouse. T table from Wayfair.com oh fierce. This has been your Wayfarer style tip to keep those interiors superior.
- [29:56]
McDonald's
Wayfair Every Style Every home.