#296 Gagan Sandhu: Engineer Your Independence

Summary

Chief Change Officer Podcast Summary

Episode #296: Gagan Sandhu – Engineer Your Independence
Release Date: April 13, 2025
Host: Vince Chen

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Introduction

In episode #296 of the Chief Change Officer podcast, host Vince Chen engages in a profound conversation with Gagan Sandhu, a Chicago Booth MBA alumnus and founder of the fintech company Zillion. This episode delves into Gagan's journey from a mechanical engineering background to achieving financial independence and his mission to empower others through innovative financial tools.

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Guest Background and Career Journey

Gagan Sandhu begins by sharing his immigrant experience, moving from India to the United States in the early 2000s to pursue graduate studies at Arizona State University. With an undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering, Gagan initially intended to enter the tech industry. However, the tech sector was hit by a significant recession during his graduation, leading him to return to mechanical engineering. Persistence paid off, and by 2005, he successfully transitioned into the tech industry, securing a position at Akamai Technologies in Boston.

Key Milestones:

• Early Career: Transition from mechanical engineering to tech amid a recession.
• Geographical Moves: Relocated from Boston to Silicon Valley to access broader markets and opportunities.
• Entrepreneurial Leap: Founded Zillion two years prior to the interview, aiming to assist Gen Y and Z in achieving financial independence.

"[...] by the time I got into tech, I was 29 plus years old. So close to 30. I was married and I had a child by then. So I just want people to realize and know that you can change careers and nothing's going to stop you if you put your mind to it."
— Gagan Sandhu [05:09]

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The Role of Knowledge in Career Success

Gagan emphasizes the centrality of continuous learning in his career trajectory. Transitioning from mechanical engineering to tech required him to constantly upgrade his knowledge base. This commitment to learning not only facilitated his career shifts but also laid the foundation for his entrepreneurial venture.

Key Points:

• Knowledge as a Catalyst: Recognizing himself as a knowledge worker, Gagan consistently sought to expand his expertise to stay relevant.
• Educational Pursuits: Attended business school not to change careers but to fill knowledge gaps in economics, marketing, finance, and accounting, which enhanced his ability to engage with business partners effectively.
• Entrepreneurial Insight: The inception of Zillion stemmed from witnessing peers struggle with financial independence, propelling him to create tools that demystify financial planning.

"Seeking knowledge has proven for me to be the ultimate success criteria. And every time I've increased knowledge, the dividends have been tremendous."
— Gagan Sandhu [10:40]

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Defining Financial Independence

Vince Chen poses a critical question to Gagan: "What does financial independence mean to you?" This sets the stage for a deep dive into Gagan's personal wealth philosophy versus commonly held perceptions of financial independence.

Gagan's Perspective:

• Personal Definition: Financial independence (FI) for Gagan signifies the ability to leave a corporate job and pursue personal ventures without being constrained by financial obligations.
• Mathematical Approach: Gagan calculated the necessary funds to sustain his lifestyle and cover essential expenses (including his children's education) for five years, providing a concrete target for FI.
• Challenges for Others: Many people struggle with FI due to lack of awareness about their monthly expenditures, insufficient investment practices, and misguided strategies like over-reliance on real estate without ensuring cash flow.

"For me, financial independence meant I could leave my corporate job and go work on my own and build something from scratch."
— Gagan Sandhu [16:35]

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The Zillion Tool for Financial Independence

Recognizing the complexities surrounding FI, Gagan co-founded Zillion, a fintech platform designed to simplify financial planning and make FI attainable for a broader audience.

Features of Zillion:

• Financial Independence Tool (FIT): Allows users to input their financial data (assets, income, expenses) to visualize their FI timeline and understand the impact of various financial decisions.
• User-Friendly Interface: Transforms complex financial calculations into intuitive visuals, enabling users to adjust variables like income growth, educational expenses, and inflation to see real-time effects on their FI goals.
• Educational Component: Incorporates hard data on investment returns (e.g., S&P 500 averages) and asset performance to provide users with a realistic outlook on their financial prospects.

"We made the math so easy and so visual that people are able to now see what financial independence would mean for them and whether and when they are likely to reach that."
— Gagan Sandhu [18:52]

Case Studies:

• Career Transition: A customer decides to quit a corporate job to teach, using Zillion to ensure their FI status remains secure.
• Family Planning: Couples can plan for children's education expenses without jeopardizing their FI goals, allowing them to focus on family and personal growth.

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Vince Chen’s Perspective on Financial Independence

Vince introduces a philosophical counterpoint to Gagan's definition of FI, questioning its attainability based on human nature and psychological factors.

Vince's Viewpoints:

• Desire-Driven Behavior: Human desires, whether for material possessions or personal passions, continuously influence financial decisions, making true FI elusive.
• Present-Centric Philosophy: Advocates for focusing on the present rather than long-term financial planning due to life's unpredictability.
• Humanist Approach: Emphasizes that wealth management should align with one's life philosophy and psychological well-being rather than purely mathematical calculations.

"Managing personal wealth is less about math and more about one's life, philosophy, psychology and the ability to tune out the noise and adapt to changes around us."
— Vince Chen [29:05]

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Bridging Perspectives: A Harmonious Dialogue

The conversation evolves into a thoughtful exchange where Vince and Gagan find common ground despite differing viewpoints. Vince acknowledges the role of FI tools like Zillion in providing clarity and assurance, even as he maintains his skepticism about the concept's ultimate feasibility.

Key Points of Agreement:

• Interconnectedness of Money and Life: Acknowledging that financial status significantly influences daily living and life choices.
• Utility of FI Awareness: Understanding FI empowers individuals to make conscious decisions about their present and future, enabling them to pursue passions without financial constraints.

"Knowing about independence helps you define the present and be very conscious about that."
— Gagan Sandhu [31:26]

Gagan's Reaffirmation:

• Educational Empowerment: Zillion not only provides tools but also educates users on fundamental financial concepts, bridging knowledge gaps that hinder FI attainment.
• Customization: Tailors financial planning to individual circumstances, ensuring that users can navigate their unique financial landscapes effectively.

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Conclusion

In this enlightening episode of Chief Change Officer, Gagan Sandhu articulates a practical and mathematically grounded approach to financial independence, underscored by his commitment to continual learning and empowerment through technology. While Vince Chen offers a philosophical critique, the dialogue underscores the importance of balancing financial planning with personal fulfillment. Together, they highlight the multifaceted nature of financial independence, blending actionable strategies with introspective considerations.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Seeking knowledge has proven for me to be the ultimate success criteria."
  — Gagan Sandhu [10:40]

• "For me, financial independence meant I could leave my corporate job and go work on my own and build something from scratch."
  — Gagan Sandhu [16:35]

• "Managing personal wealth is less about math and more about one's life, philosophy, psychology and the ability to tune out the noise and adapt to changes around us."
  — Vince Chen [29:05]

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Join the Conversation:

For those inspired to outgrow themselves and pursue transformative change, follow Chief Change Officer on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Become part of a community dedicated to personal and professional growth, guided by the wisdom of extraordinary thinkers and doers.

Transcript

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[Vince Chen]

Hi everyone. Welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer, I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change, progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today, I'm thrilled to be speaking with my Chicago Booth MBA classmate Gargan Sandu. Like many of my previous guests, Gargan is an immigrant who moved from India to the states about 20 years ago. With a mechanical engineering background, he began his journey as a grad student. About two years ago, he founded a fintech company aimed at helping Gen Y and Z achieve financial independence. Speaking of financial independence, I've always been skeptical of it, seeing it more as a myth or a marketing buzzword. In true Chicago booth style, Gaugin and I will be exchanging viewpoints on this topic, agreeing to disagree while appreciating and understanding our different perspectives in a sensible manner. On top of that, Gargan will share invaluable insights on managing career paths. I really appreciate that. Before our interview, despite his busy schedule, Gargan made it a point to thoroughly understand the scope of my show. He asked for examples and even took the time to write down his his career insights to share with me ahead of time. So for the next 45 minutes I guarantee you'll learn a lot from him. Let's begin, shall we?

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Hey, thank you so much, Vince. Thank you so much for reaching out and rekindling old memories from business school. And I'm so happy to be doing this with you. And I'm a fan of you and what you're doing. So thank you so much.

[Vince Chen]

You're really a key part of this bigger journey. You started off some time ago. It feels like just yesterday, maybe a year or two back when we got on that call, as you were beginning your venture, you had just left your corporate job to dive headfirst into your new endeavor. But before we dive into that, let's take a step back. I'd love to hear more about your background. What have you done before this? Let's explore some of the major milestones. Moving across borders, adapting to different cultures, and how you've embraced change throughout your life so far. Let's start there.

[McDonald's Ad]

Great. So my story is not very different from a typical immigrant to the US and the US Is a is a big magnet for immigrants. So I came here in the early aughts, 2001, 2002, to pursue grad school at Arizona State. And I like the way things are here. I got a job incidentally though, even though I came here to do something related to tech, my undergrad was in mechanical engineering. But I'm like, yeah, mechanical engineering. A lot of innovations happened in the 20th century. I should switch to something related to tech. So I went to grad school for that. By the time I graduated, nobody wanted to hire in tech because we were going through a huge recession. And what happened? I ended up again working in the mechanical engineering industry here in the US that was my first job, but I kept at it. I kept working on the side and just doing things on my own, which helped me secure a job in tech. Actually, that happened back in 2005. I know I'm dating myself here, but that happened in 2005. And one quick note, I want to share with the audience, given that people are looking for nuggets in terms of career and how to grow. I do want to share that by the time I got into tech, I was 29 plus years old. So close to 30. I was married and I had a child by then. So I just want people to realize and know that you can change careers and nothing's going to stop you if you put your mind to it. I remember when my wife was pregnant with our first child and I was preparing on the side. I would take printouts, read all the time I would install software on my laptop and write programs and write code and all that. And sometimes when my wife would have to, I would have to take her to the doctor's appointment for the wellness checks and all that. While we were waiting for the doctor, I would be combing through the notes and the PDFs and all those things and just studying, just reading. And all that paid off. I got into Tech in 2005. I moved to Boston, worked at a tech company called Akamai Technologies. Worked there for many years, first as an engineer, then as a manager. Then I realized that Boston is too small for market, which we will talk about in more detail. But I realized that since I was 8,000 miles away from where I was born and where a lot of my loved ones lived, moving a couple thousand miles within the US wasn't going to make a big difference to me. So we moved about. This was around the time when I was still in business school, we were still at Chicago Booth and I got a job in Silicon Valley. And I moved about 10 years ago to Silicon Valley. And I've been here, I've been working in many different companies. And then two plus years ago, I decided to launch Zill, which is the name of my company, X I L I O N. And we'll discuss more in detail in a little bit. But the idea was I became financially independent and I want looked around and I saw that other people, especially people who were similar to me, people who work in, you know, comfortable jobs, have decent income, and I looked around and typically immigrants, I'm like, hey, I think I'm ready to hang up my boots, so to speak, to take a leap and build something on my own. They're like, how come? I'm like, I think I have enough to, as you said, I have enough to achieve financial independence. And then they're like, but I don't. And I'm like, okay, here's the things I did. Have you done the same things? They're like, I didn't know that I needed to do those things. And I kept talking to different people, kept getting on similar story. And then I realized that actually there is need for something like Zillionware, which can help people make great financial decisions and become financially independent sooner.

[Vince Chen]

Reflecting on my career, there are lots and lots of twists and turns, much like yours and those of many guests I've had so far on this show. I always ask this question. As we progress, often without realizing it, we uncover themes, motivations, or drivers that push us from one milestone to the next. Although these stages might not appear linked on the surface, they are often connected by underlying forces. So it's clear our choices aren't as random as they might seem. Something is always guiding us. Have you thought about what drives you? What are your key motivators? What recurring themes have you noticed in your journey?

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Yeah, great question. I think if, as I said in the first question there, I started as an undergrad in mechanical engineering and what I realized was I worked in the industry for three years after college in India. And one of the things I realized while working it was an automotive manufacturing facility. My biggest learning there was that a lot of the innovation in manufacturing and automotive had happened. Pace of innovation had slowed down considerably. If you go back and I'm talking about 98 and 99, 2000 around that time, if you think about it, the internal combustion engines were running really well, highly efficient. A lot of the electronics was already factored in. A lot of innovation had happened. And when I looked around, I felt that by graduating from college as a technical person, even if it's mechanical engineering, I was hungry for knowledge. So I realized very early on in my career that I am a knowledge worker. And for me to continue to be successful as a knowledge worker, I had to consistently update my knowledge. And that actually has been the theme of my career all along. What I mean by that is that once you realize that something is critical, like in my case I figured it is knowledge. So after about a year of working in mechanical engineering industry, I decided that I needed to upgrade my skills and get into this new industry. Back in the late 90s, tech was brand new. Internet had just started to become popular and a lot of things were happening, exciting things. So I decided that I was going to get into tech. So I decided to come to the us. So I took the GRE exam for grad school and started my journey. That journey took, if you think about it, 98. I graduated from college and 2005 is when I actually entered the knowledge industry, the tech industry. The journey wasn't simple, it wasn't straightforward, it wasn't even a straight line journey. It took many different turns, many different jobs, two different continents, many different cities. But I was able to make that journey. But one thing that was consistent and constant in that journey was knowledge. And this is something I would like to share with all your listeners is we actually are in the. I would still say in the beginning, but definitely our generation, Gen X and Gen Y and Gen Z, we are firmly in the knowledge economy. Unless you are doing Something with your hands. Let's say you are a construction worker or you are a gardener or you are a farmer, that's different. But if you're not, if you're working in any other kind of job, whether it's a research associate or a professor or tech person, data scientist, we are part of the knowledge economy. And you always have to seek to increase your knowledge to improve that skill. And that doesn't come automatically. You have to always go for it and find new avenues to improve your knowledge. It could mean going deep and becoming a super specialist in your area, or it could mean going broad and finding more about certain areas, or it could mean learning one area and picking totally different area and learn more about it because you might have learned most of the things that had to be learned in your previous role in your previous avatar. So to answer your question succinctly, I would say seeking knowledge has proven for me to be the ultimate success criteria. And every time I've increased knowledge, the dividends have been tremendous. And I should add here, since you and I share that background. For me, going to business school was purely a knowledge decision. I didn't go there to change careers. I was working in tech. I continued to work in tech. I didn't expect a huge jump. I was working as a senior manager. Then I became a director after that. It was a pretty linear path, but I went there to learn about things that as a person working in tech, certain things like economics and marketing and finance and accounting, those things were my blind spots. And as I was growing in my career, I realized that I needed that knowledge in my toolbox to be able to have a coherent conversation with some of my business partners at work. Even if I'm the tech person, I'm still expected to know a little bit more about how accounting works, how the basic unit economics of certain product work, how the cost accounting work. And for that I went to business school. So that has been my constant journey. And even starting zilian, one of the reasons was I learned a ton while working at different companies. And I'm like, my learning has slowed down and plateaued. One of the best ways to learn more is to start something from scratch. And so I would argue that even starting zillion was a step in that direction, which is to actually increase knowledge at a rapid pace.

[Vince Chen]

You've become financially independent and then decided to start this company to help others achieve the same. This makes me wonder, what does financial independence mean to you? I'm very eager to hear about your personal wealth philosophy. The term financial independence is heavily used online, in fact often misused or reduced to just a buzzword. But I'm interested in your genuine perspective and practices. How do you interpret and apply this concept in your life?

[Gargan Sandu]

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Simple. Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with you that there is a lot of noise around this term. Financial freedom, Financial independence, Financially independent. Retire early. There's a whole fire movement. And also especially ever since the social media became a dominant force in the society, there are just too many people out there trying to almost some of them sound like snake oil salesmen. They're like oh yeah, I'm financial independent. I just have this social media or I do XYZ and I make enough money, blah blah blah. So I'll tell you what my criteria was. It was fairly straightforward and I was actually contextualized. Right? I am careful to use the word financial independence and not retirement because those two are different terms, very different context and very different overall outcomes. For me, financial independence meant I could leave my corporate job and go work on my own and build something from scratch. When I was able to do that, I said, I am financially independent because I can do what I want with my time. So I earned that independence. And I don't have to be beholden to a paycheck to do that or to something else, right? In this case, it was paycheck. And for me, it actually. I'm an engineer, after all. And I actually did a very mathematical thing. I figured out how much money I would need to sustain for at least five years so that I can build something on the side while not starving my family. And I did some math, and not super rigorous. We are all pretty good at doing basic math. And I did that. I'm like, okay, five years. Our yearly spend is about this much. My kids, one of my kids is going to go to college in this much amount of time. So here's that. And also, while I build, I will not have an income. So my retirement account has to be in a certain shape or form so that I'm not insecure about that. So that's going to be another amount. Let's say X and Y is going to be the amount that is going to be needed for just maintaining and sustaining for five years while I build something. And Z is the amount that is needed to send, let's say, one or two kids to college during that time. So X plus Y plus Z. I felt that once I reached that number, that would be my financial independence. And what I realized was that number. Right? I think the specifics are not super important. I think everybody's circumstances are different. And what I realized was that it was easy for me to do this, almost like a mental math. But for a lot of people, it was a much hard calculation. Not because the math is hard, but because I think the reason it's easy for me is because I'm able to keep track of things much, much better than an average person. For instance, I know what my monthly expenses are. I've known it since I was in college. And I have always maintained spreadsheets. I can tell you what my monthly expenses were in 2005, for instance, right? I maintained spreadsheets. So it's very easy for me to do that. It's just a habit. The second is I'm pretty decent at also managing cash flow and investing. So all of that combined, it became a pretty, I would say, attainable and achievable goal for me personally and me and my wife as a family, as a unit. But what I realized is, for a lot of people, it's much harder because a Lot of people don't know how much they actually spend in a month. B, a lot of people, some do not really start investing early enough to actually gain the compounding effect, the magical compounding effect to actually see their savings grow and that actually also stops them. Or C, this is relevant very into the question you specifically asked. A lot of people actually go in directions that they are told that will lead them to financial independence, but it's not. For instance, a lot of people are like, hey, I only buy real estate because somebody told me that's what I should do. If you're going to own only real estate doesn't yield cash returns, which means you'll be cash poor but asset rich, that's not financial independence. So understanding those things helped me build my viewpoint and now my goal is to help others see that viewpoint and build financial independence in a way that works for them. And actually in that respect, another thing that, you know, because you and I went to a really good school and some of the things were hammered into us completely while we were at Booth, which is the stock market returns, right? I think you can wake up any uchicago Booth alum in the middle of the night and say, hey, what are long term s and P500 returns? And I think before they even gain a little bit of sense of the world, they'll be like 10%, right? That's one of those things. And I think what I realized is that very few people actually know this very fundamental thing, that you can get these kind of returns. And also if you diversify a little bit better, you can probably get a little bit more. Or if you're conservative, you can get a little bit less. But what we did at Zilion was we helped people visualize financial independence. So we built tools within zillion and we actually call this tool financial independence tool, the fit. So how fit you are or how. When are you likely to hit financial independence? As soon as you tell us what you own and where your money is and how much you earn and how much you spend, we can actually tell you exactly. Hey, you're going to reach financial independence in 2034, for instance, or 2020 37. And you can change things. You're like, oh, what if my income increases by 20,000 per year? How will that impact? We will show you. How will that impact? You're like, oh, what if I have to pay 100% of my child's college education? How will that impact my financial independence? For those of us who are not very good at mental math, we Built this tool so you can just plug that number in, say, okay, my child is going to go to some XYZ college, 200k expense coming up in 5 years. How will that impact my financial independence? So we actually made the thinking part super easy and we took the assumptions out. Also, how will inflation impact my financial independence? Like, I can say, oh, I need a million dollars to retire because that's the number thrown around. Or these days It's, I think 2.2 million. That's the number that's thrown around. But hey, if I'm going to live for another 40 years, is it going to be enough? How will it in inflation impact that? You can actually adjust for that. So the overall thing we have done is, what I realized is some people are very good at this math, but a lot of people are not. And what we did is we made the math so easy and so virtual and so easy to understand and grab and actually play with that. Now financial independence should seem like a tangible thing. So much so that a customer of ours, I was meeting with them and it was in a social setting and I was explaining what we do and I was talking to somebody, asked a question, hey, Gagan, how do I know how much money I need? I'm like, we built a calculator. Exactly. We built a product just for this. And a customer of ours, he was also in that. And he was also right next to me. Oh, that the number I see on the top right corner, I'm like, yeah. So the idea, the thing is that we made it this whole complex thing and we simplified it and we made it visually so appealing and so easy to use that people are able to now see what financial independence would mean for them and whether and when they are likely to reach that. And also once they reach, are they at the risk of running out of money or not? If somebody decides, I want to send two kids to college and retire at 42 and I want to travel the world and I'm going to have no income, our product will show them if they are likely to run out of money maybe by the age of 65 or 70, or they're not going to run out of money and they can comfortably even retire. For them, financial independence might mean retirement for some people. It might mean they go from full time to part time, or it might mean they, rather than just working for money, they can now pursue a passion where they will have a lower income. Let's say some people want to. One of my co workers at Square, he quit his corporate job and became A teacher. Now, following that passion, I'm sure he took a huge pay cut, maybe 60, 70, even 80% pay cut. But my guess is that this person is really good at doing the math. And they can say, yeah, I can do this. One of our customers, they both work and one of them decided after using Zillion, they're like, hey, listen, one of us is going to quit and focus on family and just take some time off because we know our financial independence is not at stake. Our tools help people do that.

[Vince Chen]

Let me share my tick on financial independence, if you allow me. Interestingly, I don't actually believe in it. And my reasoning isn't about the math. It's about human nature and psychology. We humans have desires at every stage of our lives. Whether it's craving the latest iPhone when we are younger or simply needing a functional phone as we grow older, our desires shape our financial behavior. I believe as long as we have desires, we can never be truly financially independent because our decisions are influenced by by our pursuit of these desires and the financial means to fulfill them. Personally, I'm not just about numbers. I consider myself a philosopher at heart. Despite studying finance and accounting and spending a decade in financial institutions helping people manage money, I fundamentally a humanist. Life is not only short, is unpredictable. We might plan to achieve certain things by a certain age, but there's no guarantee we'll have the time. So for me it's about focusing on the present. Like building a good show here. Yes, I need to make and spend money to sustain it. But I do stress over really long term financial plans because the future is after all uncertain. To me, managing personal wealth is less about math and more about one's life, philosophy, psychology and the ability to to tune out the noise and adapt to changes around us. That's my perspective on financial independence.

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I think we are talking about the same thing. Maybe we are talking about the two different sides of the same coin. What you are saying is living in present. One fact I think we both have to agree on in the modern world, the concept of money and wealth is enmeshed with our daily lives. We just can't separate, right? How we live our lives is influenced by money whether we like it or not. But that's how the world is structured today. To your point, living in the present. I agree with you 100%. Knowing about independence does is it helps you define that present and it helps you be very conscious about that. So one of one example that I gave you was my coworker who left a very comfortable corporate job to become a teacher. Now that person, they actually walked away from lot of future wealth, but they pursued passion. Now the idea is that financial independence let them pursue a passion and shape their today and their tomorrow. They are living in the present. So they didn't wait until a lot of people wait until they retire, pursue their hobbies and their passions. This person, probably in their late 40s, walked away from a corporate job and is now working with the kids. Another the couple that I mentioned for them living in the present is that their kids are young and they actually, until now they were thinking they need to keep earning a lot of money because they just need to have a lot of money because they have two kids and they live in a very expensive area here in Silicon Valley and they just can't keep up. And knowing for them, financial independence was something they couldn't wrap their heads around because of the way their thought processes worked. But by knowing what was needed, they were able to sift the signal from the noise and they were like, oh, okay, we can actually spend more time raising our kids and building the family and building the foundations of the family and not just keep earning more because we have reached a point where financial independence is within reach. So my point is, even if you want to live in the present, I think being aware of the pitfalls and also the possible rewards of financial independence, I think knowing those two is of extreme utility, is of extreme usefulness. So let me finish your thought, what you started on the financial independence part. I would say yes, we provide assurance, but more than that, we also actually infuse knowledge in the product that is otherwise not very well known. For instance, a lot of people are like, hey, I have three or four properties, so that should do it. What we provide is. And people generally, it's not, as I said, like people. Most people don't know s and P500 long term returns, believe it or not. Even though to us it's always at the tip of our tongue and it's always at our fingertips. We know it. And people don't know what the returns are for real estate in the long term. I'm talking about American market. Asian markets are different, but American markets. So we bake these the data. We also bake hard data. If somebody has XYZ amount of funds in their 401k, which is the retirement account in the US and they have some stocks in their brokerage account and they have some real estate and they have some treasury bonds and they have some cash, we are able to pull all that together and say we know real estate grows about 3 to 3.5% per year. Based on what you have, here's where you can expect this thing to grow. You have some cash is not going to grow. It's actually going to lose value. You have some bonds, you have some this thing. So we are able to build that model. So there is the math there. Even though I said it's easy for people like you and me, but for most people it becomes very complicated very quickly. And that's where we come in and we help.

[Vince Chen]

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show. Leave us top rated reviews. Check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Liz Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.

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