#297 Gagan Sandhu: Redefining Wealth, Reinventing Work

Summary

Chief Change Officer Episode #297: Gagan Sandhu – Redefining Wealth, Reinventing Work

Release Date: April 13, 2025

In episode #297 of Chief Change Officer, host Vince Chen engages in a profound conversation with his Chicago Booth MBA classmate, Gagan Sandhu. This episode delves deep into the nuanced concepts of financial independence, the evolution of career paths, and the impact of modern financial tools on personal wealth management. Here's a comprehensive summary capturing the essence of their dialogue.

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1. Guest Introduction and Background

Vince Chen welcomes Gagan Sandhu, highlighting his journey from a mechanical engineering graduate to the founder of a fintech company focused on aiding Gen Y and Z in achieving financial independence. Gagan's transition from corporate roles to entrepreneurship underscores the thematic essence of the podcast—embracing change to outgrow oneself.

2. Defining Financial Independence

The conversation kicks off with Vince probing Gagan's interpretation of financial independence, distinguishing it from mere buzzword usage.

Vince Chen [04:37]: "You've become financially independent and then decided to start this company to help others achieve the same. What does financial independence mean to you?"

Gagan Sandhu [05:22]: "For me, financial independence meant I could leave my corporate job and go work on my own and build something from scratch... I do not have to be beholden to a paycheck."

Gagan emphasizes a calculated approach to financial independence, detailing his method of assessing required funds to sustain his family and entrepreneurial pursuits for five years. He breaks down the components into maintaining expenses (X), ensuring retirement security (Y), and funding his children's education (Z), culminating in the formula X + Y + Z.

3. Zillion’s Financial Independence Tool

Gagan introduces Zillion, his fintech platform designed to demystify financial independence through actionable tools.

Gagan Sandhu [09:45]: "We built tools within Zillion that allow users to visualize their financial independence timeline based on their assets, income, and expenditures."

Key features include:

• Financial Independence Timeline: Projects when users can achieve financial independence.
• Scenario Planning: Allows users to simulate the impact of income changes, educational expenses, and inflation.
• Comprehensive Analysis: Integrates various financial instruments like 401(k)s, real estate, stocks, and bonds to provide a holistic view.

By simplifying complex financial calculations, Zillion empowers users to make informed decisions without getting bogged down by intricate math.

4. Personal Perspectives on Financial Independence

Vince offers a philosophical counterpoint to Gagan's structured approach, emphasizing the psychological aspects of financial management.

Vince Chen [15:32]: "I don't actually believe in financial independence... life is unpredictable. It's about focusing on the present."

Vince argues that human desires continuously shape financial behaviors, making absolute financial independence elusive. He advocates for a present-focused strategy, balancing financial planning with life’s uncertainties and immediate passions.

5. Bridging Perspectives: Harmonizing Present and Future

Gagan and Vince find common ground by recognizing the inseparability of money from daily life and the importance of being conscious about financial goals while living in the present.

Gagan Sandhu [19:55]: "Financial independence lets individuals pursue passions and shape their present and future without being solely driven by income."

They discuss real-world applications, such as leaving a stable job to follow one's passion, illustrating how financial independence can facilitate meaningful life changes without compromising stability.

6. Financial Influencers (Finfluencers) and Authenticity

The dialogue shifts to the rise of finfluencers—financial influencers leveraging social media to disseminate money management advice—and their credibility.

Vince Chen [30:43]: "There's growing concern about the credibility of finfluencers, especially those lacking formal financial education."

Gagan Sandhu [31:10]: "Influencers have always existed, from newspaper columnists to TV personalities. The medium has evolved, but the essence remains the same."

Gagan asserts that while finfluencers provide bite-sized wisdom, their motivations often align with selling products or services, potentially compromising authenticity. He positions Zillion as an independent influencer, focusing on genuine value rather than affiliating with third-party influencers.

7. Navigating Career Transitions and Addressing Ageism

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to career transitions, especially in the face of ageism and evolving job markets.

Gagan Sandhu [33:24]: "A typical career today spans about 10 years, necessitating regular rediscovery and skill upgrades."

He shares his own experiences of transitioning from engineering to programming, management, and eventually entrepreneurship, advocating for continuous skill enhancement to stay relevant. Gagan downplays traditional notions of ageism, attributing perceived age-related challenges more to skill gaps than to age itself.

8. Practical Advice for Career Transitioners

Gagan offers actionable tips for individuals facing layoffs or contemplating career changes:

• Embrace Continuous Learning: Stay updated with emerging technologies like AI to remain competitive.
• Balance Work and Skill Development: Allocate time to both fulfill job responsibilities and acquire new skills.
• Leverage Financial Tools: Utilize platforms like Zillion to understand and manage financial implications of career shifts.

9. Hiring Practices and Inclusivity

Addressing the concern of ageism in hiring, Gagan emphasizes meritocracy over age, focusing on skills and experience.

Gagan Sandhu [38:19]: "I would hire the best person for the job, regardless of age. Skills and experience are paramount."

He underscores that startups like Zillion prioritize specific skill sets tailored to their unique needs over demographic factors, fostering an inclusive hiring environment that values competence.

10. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

As the conversation wraps up, Vince and Gagan reiterate the importance of balancing financial planning with personal fulfillment. They highlight the role of innovative financial tools in empowering individuals to navigate career changes and achieve financial stability without sacrificing life's passions.

Key Takeaways:

• Financial Independence: A personalized and calculated approach can facilitate meaningful career transitions and life choices.
• Financial Tools: Platforms like Zillion simplify complex financial planning, making independence more attainable.
• Career Agility: Embracing continuous learning and skill development is crucial in today's dynamic job market.
• Authentic Financial Guidance: Strive for genuine, value-driven financial advice over potentially biased influencer content.
• Inclusive Hiring: Focus on skills and experience to foster a diverse and competent workforce.

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This episode of Chief Change Officer offers a rich exploration of financial independence intertwined with personal and professional growth. For listeners seeking to redefine their relationship with money and navigate career transitions, Gagan Sandhu's insights provide valuable guidance backed by practical tools and philosophical reflections.

Join the conversation and outgrow yourself by subscribing to Chief Change Officer on LinkedIn, Apple, Spotify, and YouTube @chiefchangeofficer.

Transcript

[Vince Chen]

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[Gargan Sandu]

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[Vince Chen]

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[Dr. Horton]

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[Vince Chen]

Hi everyone. Welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer, I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change, progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today, I'm thrilled to be speaking with my Chicago Boo MBA classmate Gargan Sandu. Like many of my previous guests, Gargan is an immigrant who moved from India to the states about 20 years ago. With a mechanical engineering background, he began his journey as a grad student. About two years ago, he founded a fintech company aimed at helping Gen Y and Z achieve financial independence. Speaking of financial independence, I've always been skeptical of it, seeing it more as a myth or a marketing buzzword. In true Chicago booth style, Garden and I will be exchanging viewpoints on this topic, agreeing to disagree while appreciating and understanding our different perspectives in a sensible manner. On top of that, Gargan will share invaluable insights on managing career paths. I really appreciate that before our interview, despite his busy schedule Gargan made it a point to thoroughly understand the scope of my show. He asked for examples and even took the time to write down his career insights to share with me ahead of time.

[Gargan Sandu]

Hey, thank you so much, Vince. Thank you so much for reaching out and rekindling old memories from business school. And I'm so happy to be doing this with you and I'm a fan of you and what you're doing. So thank you so much.

[Vince Chen]

You've become financially independent and then decided to start this company to help others achieve the same. This makes me wonder, what does financial independence mean to you? I'm very eager to hear about your personal wealth philosophy. The term financial independence is heavily used online, in fact, often misused or reduced to just a buzzword. But I'm interested in your genuine perspective and practices. How do you interpret and apply this concept in your life?

[Gargan Sandu]

Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with you that there is a lot of noise around this term. Financial freedom, financial independence, financially independent, retire early, there's a whole fire movement. And also especially ever since the social media became a dominant force in the society, there are just too many people out there trying to almost. Some of them sound like snake oil salesmen. They're like, oh yeah, I'm financial independent. I just have this social media or I do XYZ and I make enough money, blah blah blah. So I'll tell you what my criteria was. It was fairly straightforward and I will actually contextualize, right. I am careful to use the word financial independence and not retirement because those two are different terms, very different context and very different overall outcomes. For me, financial independence meant I could leave my corporate job and go work on my own and build something from scratch. When I was able to do that, I said I am financially independent because I can do what I want with my time. So I earned that independence and I don't have to be beholden to a paycheck and do that or to something else, right? In this case it was paycheck. And for me, it actually, I'm an engineer after all, and I actually did a very mathematical thing. I figured out how much money I would need to sustain for at least five years so that I can build something on the side while not starving. My family and I did some math and not super rigorous. We are all pretty good at doing basic math. And I did that. I'm like, okay, five years. Our yearly spend is about this much. My kids, one of my kids is going to go to college in this much amount of time. So here's that. And Also, while I build, I will not have an income. So my retirement account has to be in a certain shape or form so that I'm not insecure about that. So that's going to be another amount. Let's say X and Y is going to be the amount that is going to be needed for just maintaining and sustaining for five years while I build something. And Z is the amount that is needed to send, let's say, one or two kids to college during that time. So X plus Y plus Z. I felt that once I reached that number, that would be my financial independence. And what I realized was that it was a number, right? I think the specifics are not super important. I think everybody's circumstances are different. And what I realized was that it was easy for me to do this, almost like a mental math, but for a lot of people, it was a much hard calculation. Not because the math is hard, but because I think the reason it's easy for me is because I'm able to keep track of things much, much better than an average person. For instance, I know what my monthly expenses are. I've known it since I was in college. And I have always maintained spreadsheets. I can tell you what my monthly expenses were in 2005, for instance, right? I've maintained spreadsheet. So it's very easy for me to do that. It's just a habit. The second is I'm pretty decent at also managing cash flow and investing. So all of that combined, it became a pretty, I would say, attainable and achievable goal for me personally and me and my wife as a family, as a unit. But what I realized is for a lot of people, it's much harder because a lot of people don't know how much they actually spend in a month. B, a lot of people do not really start investing early enough to actually gain the compounding effect, the magical compounding effect to actually see their savings grow and that actually also stops them. Or C, this is relevant very into the question you specifically asked. A lot of people actually go in directions that they are told that will lead them to financial independence, but it's not. For instance, a lot of people are like, hey, I only buy real estate because somebody told me that's what I should do. If you're gonna own only real estate doesn't yield cash returns, which means you'll be cash poor. But asset rate, that's not financial independence. So understanding those things helped me build my viewpoint. And now my goal is to help others see that viewpoint and build Financial independence in a way that works for them. And actually in that respect, another thing that you know, because you and I went to a really good school and some of the things were hammered into us completely while we were at Booth, which is the stock market returns, right? I think you can wake up any UChicago Booth alum in the middle of the night and say, hey, what are long term s and P500 returns? And I think before they even gain a little bit of sense of the world, they'll be like 10%, right? That's one of those things. And I think what I realized is that very few people actually know this very fundamental thing that you can get these kind of returns. And also if you diversify a little bit better, you can probably get a little bit more. Or if you're conservative, you can get a little bit less. But what we did at Zilion was we helped people visualize financial independence. So we built tools within Zilion and we actually call this tool financial independence tool, the fit. So how fit you are or how. When are you likely to hit financial independence? As soon as you tell us what you own and where your money is and how much you earn and how much you spend, we can actually tell you exactly. Hey, you're going to reach financial independence in 2034, for instance, or 2020 37. And you can change things. You're like, oh, what if my income increases by 20,000 per year? How will that impact? We will show you how will that impact. You're like, oh, what if I have to pay 100% of my child's college education? How will that impact my financial independence? For those of us who are not very good at mental math, we built this tool so you can just plug that number and say, okay, my child is going to go to some XYZ college, 200k expense coming up in 5 years. How will that impact my financial independence? So we actually made the thinking part super easy and we took the assumptions out. Also, how will inflation impact my financial independence? Like I can say, oh, I need a million dollars to retire, because that's a number thrown around. Or these days It's I think 2.2 million. That's the number that's thrown around. But hey, if I'm going to live for another 40 years, is it going to be enough? How will it inflation impact that you can actually adjust for that. So the overall thing we have done is, what I realized is some people are very good at this math, but a lot of people are not. And what we did Is we made the math so easy and so visual and so easy to understand and grab and actually play with that. Now financial independence should seem like a tangible thing. So much so that a customer of ours, I was meeting with them and it was in a social setting and I was explaining what we do and I was talking to somebody, asked a question, hey, government, how do I know how much money I need? I'm like, we built a calculator. Exactly. We built a product just for this. And a customer of ours, he was also in that. And he was also right next to me. Oh, that. The number I see on the top right corner, I'm like, yeah. So the idea, the thing is that we made it this whole complex thing and we simplified it and we made it visually so appealing and so easy to use that people are able to now see what financial independence would mean for them and whether and when they are likely to reach that. And also once they reach, are they at the risk of running out of money or not? If somebody decides, I want to send two kids to college and retire at 42 and I want to travel the world and I'm going to have no income, our product will show them if they are likely to run out of money maybe by the age of 65 or 70, or they are not going to run out of money and they can comfortably even retire. For them, financial independence might mean retire for some, it might mean they go from full time to part time, or it might mean they, rather than just working for money, they can now pursue a passion where they will have a lower income. Let's say some people want to. One of my co workers at School Square, he quit his corporate job and became a teacher. Now, following that passion, I'm sure he took a huge pay cut, maybe 60, 70, even 80% pay cut. But my guess is that this person is really good at doing the math and they can say, yeah, I can do this. One of our customers, they both work and one of them decided after using Zillion, they're like, hey, listen, one of us is going to quit and focus on family and just take some time off. Because we know our financial independence is not at stake. Our tools help people do that.

[Vince Chen]

Let me share my take on financial independence if you will allow me. Interestingly, I don't actually believe in it. And my reasoning isn't about the math. It's about human nature and psychology. We humans have desires at every stage of our lives, whether it craving the latest iPhone when we are younger or simply needing a functional phone as we grow older. Our desires shape our financial behavior. I believe as long as we have desires, we can never be truly financially independent because our decisions are influenced by our pursuit of these desires and the financial means to fulfill them. Personally, I'm not just about numbers. I consider myself a philosopher at heart. Despite studying finance and accounting and spending a decade in financial institutions helping people manage money, I'm fundamentally a humanist. Life is not only short, it is unpredictable. We might plan to achieve certain things by a certain age, but there's no guarantee we'll have the time. So for me, it's about focusing on the present. Like building a good show here. Yes, I need to make and spend money to sustain it, but I do stress over really long term financial plans because the future is, after all, uncertain. To me, managing personal wealth is less about math and more about one's life, philosophy, psychology, and the ability to tune out the noise and adapt to changes around us. That's my perspective on financial independence.

[Dr. Horton]

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[McDonald's]

McDonald's meets the Minecraft Universe and Grimace, Birdie and Hamburglar just spawned in the Overworld. Now for a limited time, you can get one of six McDonald's collectibles when you order a Minecraft movie meal.

[Gargan Sandu]

Ooh.

[McDonald's]

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[Gargan Sandu]

For a limited time.

[McDonald's]

A Minecraft movie only in theaters.

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[Gargan Sandu]

I think we are talking about the same thing. Maybe we are talking about the two different sides of the same coin. What you are saying is living in present. One fact I think we both have to agree on. In the modern world, the concept of money and wealth is enmeshed with our daily lives. We just can't separate, right? How we live our lives is influenced by money whether we like it or not. But that's how the world is structured today. To your point, living in the present, I agree with you 100%. Knowing about independence does is it helps you define that present and it helps you be very conscious about that. So one of one example that I gave you was my co worker who left a very comfortable corporate job to become a teacher. Now that person, they actually walked away from a lot of future wealth, but they pursued passion. Now the idea is that financial independence let them pursue a passion and shape their today and their tomorrow. They are living in the present. So they didn't wait until a lot of people wait until they retire, pursue their hobbies and their passions. This person, probably in their late 40s, walked away from a corporate job and is now working with the kids. Another the couple that I mentioned for them living in the present is that their kids are young and they actually until now they were thinking they need to keep earning a lot of money because they just need to have a lot of money because they have two kids and they live in a very expensive area here in Silicon Valley and they just can't keep up. And knowing for them, financial independence was something they couldn't wrap their heads around because of the way their thought processes worked. But by knowing what was needed, they were able to sift the signal from the noise and they were like, oh, okay, we can actually spend more time raising our kids and building the family and building the foundations of the family and not just keep earning more because we have reached a point where financial independence is within reach. So my point is, even if you want to live in the present, I think be aware of the pitfalls and also the possible rewards of financial independence. I think knowing those two is of extreme utility, is of extreme usefulness. So let me finish your thought. What you started on the financial independence part, I would say yes, we provide assurance, but more than that, we also actually infuse knowledge in the product that is otherwise not very well known. For instance, a lot of people are like, hey, I have three or four properties, so that should do it. What we provide is. And people generally, it's not, as I said, like people. Most people don't know s and P500 long term returns, believe it or not. Even though to us it's always at the tip of our tongue and it's always at our fingertips. We know it and people don't know what the returns are for real estate in the long term. I'm talking about American market. Asian markets are different, but American markets. So we bake these, the data. We also bake hard data. If somebody has XYZ amount of funds in their 401k, which is the retirement account in the US and they have some stocks in their brokerage account and they have some real estate and they have some treasury bonds and they have some cash, we are able to pull all that together and say we know real estate grows about 3 to 3.5% per year. Based on what you have, here's where you can expect this thing to grow. You have some cash is not going to grow. It's actually going to lose value. You have some bonds, you have some this thing. So we are able to build that model. So there is the math there. Even though I said it's easy for people like you and me, but for most people it becomes very complicated very quickly. And that's where we come in and we help.

[Vince Chen]

When it comes to the customers you've worked with, I'm curious about something specific. What's the Persona of your ideal customer?

[Gargan Sandu]

Who's our ideal customer? Our ideal customer is someone who is earning a decent amount of money. We say $100,000 or more per household. Typically a young family and also quite often an immigrant family. And they are so busy working full time jobs, raising kids that they don't have time for pretty much anything else. And when they see Zyllion, they're like, okay, this helps me because now I don't have to do all the research all the time. You guys do all this for me and I'm able to spend five to ten minutes a week. And Zylian will A tell me whether I'm on a, you know, sustainable path to financial independence or not. B, if I'm not, Zilian will tell me, hey, we have too much cash here. Invest that into stocks. What kind of stocks? Here are the stocks you can invest in. Also you have a 401k account that is actually, you're paying too much fee there. Change that and optimize it in such a way we actually show step by step. So a typical customer will get a lot of value because they're pressed for time. This is the money thing is it's always like item number five or six or seven on their list. But then number one is don't get fired in this economy. So keep working, keep putting in long hours. Number two is make sure kids are raised properly and the groceries are done. And other things meet with certain people so you don't. You're not a social zombie. So by the time you come to okay, I also need to look at all my finances and see what I need to do. It's always number five, number six number maybe during tax time it bumps to number two or number three or we have to file taxes. But planning for financial independence is and I would encourage you to talk to some young parents and to just to validate this on how much do they actually are able to think about these things. And that's where we believe our opportunity. Young families. And also I would say some of the Gen Z especially who are not yet married and have kids but they are like okay, I am finally making some money and I'm able to pay off my student loan or I should I pay off my student loan or should I invest this money and pay the minimum in student loans? We have tools for those people as well and they are also a big part of our audience. They're like, hey, should I buy a house with this cash I have or should I invest somewhere else? So what we do is our pitch is if you are a professional and I could go back to this if you're a knowledge worker. And today we are in the knowledge economy. The best use of your time is to increase your knowledge and increase your earnings through improved knowledge. We help you by taking care of a lot of your financial nitty gritty. We help you to stay focused on increasing your knowledge so that you can accelerate your career more and accelerate your earnings more. And we that's where we are seeing the success.

[Vince Chen]

How do you position your company? Is it mainly a software development company, a money management firm or something else?

[Gargan Sandu]

Yeah, so software company, you pay us a small fee and it's $19 a month. And with that you get access to all our tools so that you can manage money like a professional Wall street person. You'll have the same tools as those Available to the Wall street big egos, and you pay us a small fee. But if you are like, hey, listen, I also need to talk to someone. Because for money, I don't just trust some numbers blinking on the screen. I also need you to talk to someone that we offer you that service as well. You can talk to a certified financial expert and you pay us $79 a month. And it's straightforward, simple. We're not an education platform. Education happens through osmosis. But it's. That's not our goal, that's not our desire. We believe that there is enough content available just on YouTube itself and overall on the Internet that anybody who really wants to learn, there are plenty of avenues available, plenty of resources available for you to learn. We are not here to teach you, we are here to help you. And that's how we position ourselves in your industry.

[Vince Chen]

There's a new type of stakeholder known as fin freelancers, financial influencers. The younger generation often turns to them for money management advice via social media. It's easily accessible and they seem to crave all kinds of information. But there are growing concerns about potential conflicts of interest and the credibility of these influencers, especially since they may lack formal financial education. Given this backdrop, and considering your goal to help people become more knowledgeable about managing their money, which also positively impacts their lives, what's your take on this trend? How do you engage with these influences, perhaps promoting a product? And how do you assist your clients in becoming better decision makers and effectively multiplying the money? As your tagline on LinkedIn suggests, the.

[Gargan Sandu]

Term is new, but the concept is not. If you go back, there are a couple of people who come to mind. Dave Ramsey, he's. I don't know, I think he's in the late 60s or maybe early 70s. He's been an influencer for finance since like the 80s. Sue Orman and there are many others. Right. So influencers have always been there. The movie keeps changing. Before that, there were newspaper columnists. They were always there. You have people who would write letters, hey, what should I do this? How should I do that? So there were. There have always been influencers. They started with newspapers and magazines, then to tv, then to cable, and then to Internet and some user groups and discussion boards, and now to social. Media hasn't changed so much, but it has fragmented. There's one Bill Ramsey, one Sue Zorman, and there were probably like a dozen of them, say 30 years ago, and there is probably thousands of them, if not millions now. I think there is a place for them. They provide bite size wisdom. I am in my own very small right. I'm also a finfluencer. I post my videos on LinkedIn, Twitter, TikTok everywhere. You can easily find me Zillion or Gagan Sundry if you search for it. So I post nuggets as well. But I believe that influencers, they do have a motive. Typically they're typically tied with someone. They're either selling, hey, this JP Morgan bank account is really good, you should get it and they get some money. I think that model has a place. We are not doing that. We don't tie up with influencers or influencers. We believe that it's less authentic. I would rather be selling our own product and not just using an influencer. We want to be an influencer ourselves rather than use other influencers.

[Vince Chen]

As we near the end of our interview, I think is the perfect time to ask this question. You made a conscious decision to leave a tech company in your 40s and dive into entrepreneurship. Yet today, many people in their 30s, 40s or even 50s are facing layoffs and still compelled to change their career have they're also concerned about ageism in the workplace. Could you share some practical advice for these folks?

[Gargan Sandu]

I think some of the things that I'm going to say are probably going to be controversial, but I'm just going to say it anyway. There are many aspects of this. I'll focus on one or two. Regarding ageism, I think I'm less worried about that. But the way I think about it is as compared to say 20, 30 years ago today, in this economy, especially in the US and maybe in other places as well, a career is not. It doesn't span 30, 40, 50 years anymore. A typical career, this is my reading is about 10 years. Every 10 years or so. You need to rediscover your career. I have done it. I started as a mechanical engineer. Seven years later I became a programmer. Another five years later I became a manager. Another ten years later I became a leader in tech overall. And five years later I started a company. So I have changed career basically three or four times in the less than three, two and a half decades that I've been working. I think this is going to be the norm and it's less about ageism, it's about discovery. For instance, right now we are in this hype cycle, which is somewhat real, but definitely we are in the cycle. I shouldn't say hype cycle. We're in the cycle where some of the old guard technologies are getting replaced with New guard technologies like AI, for instance, if you are, whether you're 40 or you're 20, if you are not exploring AI as a technology, as potentially an enabler of new opportunities for you, then you're falling behind. And what happens is, I think the ageism is the name we give to the skill gap. Someone coming out of college is probably well equipped with the technologies that have come out in the last couple of years, AI being one of them. Somebody who's been working in corporate and doing certain job is less likely to have used those tools because those tools are new and their job didn't require. So I think as an individual, I think it. I think the onus is on me to discover those things and learn those things on my own so that ageism doesn't become a place for me to put the blame on. It should be skills and skills are something that we unfortunately or fortunately live in. A time when skills have to be updated and upgraded, constant. That's one second thing is I tell anybody who I worked with, anybody who has been on my team, I ask them to work hard. Jeff Bezos famously has said, work hard, work smart, work long, and you can't choose between them. When anybody joins at Amazon, they're told they have to do all three things. You have to work hard, you have to work smart, and you have to work long. I think what happens is when once we start working, get married, we have kids, we have more social life, we have more obligations. I think the work long part falls off, which is natural, but I think we need to find those times in your career where in our careers where we can work long for periods of time to build more equity, so to speak, with our employer or to build more skills. So maybe we are not. The work long part is we are doing somewhat long at the work, but also we are putting extra time to learn more skills. And that way we can actually, I think we can mitigate the side effects of ageism a decent bit. Does that make sense?

[Vince Chen]

Yes, it makes sense. But in recruitment, there's always a focus on cost. HR and CEOs might lean towards hiring younger individuals because they offer lower salaries. Even though the older candidates might be more experienced and competent. Sometimes they come up with their own justification that younger people are simply more creative or tech savvy. This happens quite often in tech ventures. Given that you run a tech venture as the CEO, would you consider hiring someone in the 40s who's been pushed out of corporate life and is looking to start a new chapter by building a tech venture with you.

[Gargan Sandu]

Will I hire someone who's older? So let me address that. So Vincey also asked whether I would hire someone who is, let's say over 40 and comes to zillion. I think the honest answer is yes. I consider everyone and one of the things I learned early on in my career is to hire the best person for the job. So if right now, if I'm looking for, let's say a marketing person who can come in and really take our marketing to the next level, I'll be looking for the skills that will help us get there. If that those skills are in a 23 year old or a 35 year old or a 47 year old doesn't make as much difference as what is the specific thing I'm looking for. And sometimes experience is an asset there and I would definitely look at that. So I don't think it's ageism as such. I would put it as its skills if you have those skills that I'm looking for. And again, we are a small company. We are a startup. Our needs, our skill needs might be different from let's say Google that is a 27, 26 year old company. They might probably even 30 year old company at this point. Our needs are different and our skill needs might be different as compared to some of the established companies.

[Vince Chen]

Gorgan, I've really enjoyed our conversation today. I know we've gone over time, but you have so much valuable insight to share. I didn't want to cut you off. I truly appreciate your time and all that you've shared with us.

[Gargan Sandu]

Thank you so much Vince. This was so much fun. Thank you.

[Vince Chen]

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.

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