#303 Holly Bond: Fixing Recruiting Without Losing the Human

Summary

Chief Change Officer Podcast Summary: Episode #303 with Holly Bond - "Fixing Recruiting Without Losing the Human"

Introduction

In Episode #303 of the Chief Change Officer podcast, host Vince Chen engages in an enlightening conversation with Holly Bond, a seasoned recruiter who has recently re-entered the recruitment industry with a transformative approach. Titled "Fixing Recruiting Without Losing the Human," this episode delves deep into Holly's journey, her human-centric recruitment philosophy, the integration of AI in recruiting, and invaluable advice for job seekers navigating today's complex job market.

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1. Holly’s Journey Back to Recruiting

Holly Bond's return to the recruitment industry is not merely a career move but a mission to redefine how recruitment should be practiced. Twenty years after her initial stint as a recruiter, Holly reconnects with the field, driven by a desire to infuse empathy and genuine care into the recruitment process.

• Initial Hesitations: Holly shares her initial reluctance to return, citing past frustrations with the transactional nature of traditional recruiting. “Most recruitment companies work almost like real estate agents here in Canada where they're paid 100% commission,” she explains (03:33).

• Transformation and Partnership: Partnering with Royer Thompson under the leadership of Kim West, Holly found an environment that aligned with her values. This partnership allowed her to establish a new division focused on empathy-driven recruitment, moving away from the commission-based model that often prioritizes profits over people (05:20).

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2. A Human-Centric Approach to Recruitment

Holly's approach centers on treating candidates with the respect and attention they deserve, challenging the often impersonal practices prevalent in the industry.

• Empathy Over Revenue: A pivotal moment led Holly to reject the conventional revenue-driven mindset. Recounting an interaction with an emotional candidate, she realized the futility of assigning monetary value to human connections. “How can you possibly assign a dollar value to sitting in front of somebody while they're crying and they trust you so much that they're crying and they need your help?" she reflects (07:15).

• Authentic Interactions: Unlike traditional recruiters who may use generic templates, Holly emphasizes personalized communication. She ensures that every message to a candidate is tailored, demonstrating genuine interest and understanding of their unique backgrounds (12:05).

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3. The Role of AI in Recruiting

While Holly champions a human-centric approach, she acknowledges the potential benefits of AI in enhancing recruitment efficiency without compromising the personal touch.

• AI as a Tool, Not a Replacement: Holly discusses how AI can assist in sourcing candidates and managing administrative tasks, allowing recruiters to focus more on building meaningful relationships. “AI should be used to make us more efficient so that we can spend more time on personal connection,” she states (16:45).

• Limitations of AI: She cautions against over-reliance on AI, highlighting its inability to replicate empathy and emotional intelligence. AI lacks the nuanced understanding required to navigate complex human emotions and relationships, which are crucial in effective recruitment (17:10).

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4. Advice for Job Seekers in an AI-Driven Market

Holly offers practical and heartfelt advice for job seekers, particularly those in mid to late career stages, to effectively position themselves in a landscape increasingly influenced by technology.

• Networking is Key: Emphasizing the importance of building and maintaining a robust network, Holly encourages job seekers to engage in genuine networking activities. “Your personal connections are invaluable,” she advises (25:17).

• Continuous Learning and Adaptability: She underscores the necessity of embracing lifelong learning and staying adaptable, especially with the integration of AI in various industries. Demonstrating adaptability showcases a commitment to growth and resilience (25:50).

• Authenticity Matters: Holly highlights the importance of being genuine in resumes and interviews. Authenticity builds trust and fosters genuine relationships, which are foundational to successful career transitions. “Be authentic. If you pretend that you know how to do something that you don't, it’s going to be rocky,” she explains (30:22).

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5. Notable Quotes

• Holly Bond on Traditional Recruiting:
  “How can you possibly assign a dollar value to sitting in front of somebody while they're crying and they trust you so much that they're crying and they need your help."
  07:15

• On AI's Role:
  “AI should be used to make us more efficient so that we can spend more time on personal connection.”
  16:45

• Advice to Job Seekers:
  “Be authentic. Whether you're writing a cover letter or interviewing, if you're genuine, you're going to develop a relationship based on honesty.”
  25:17

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6. Conclusion

This episode of Chief Change Officer with Holly Bond offers a refreshing perspective on the recruitment industry, advocating for a balance between technological advancements and the irreplaceable value of human connections. Holly's insights underscore the importance of empathy, authenticity, and continuous personal development in both recruiting and job seeking. For listeners seeking to navigate career transitions or improve their recruiting practices, this episode provides actionable wisdom rooted in real-world experience and heartfelt commitment to human-centric change.

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Listen to Episode #303

For a deeper dive into Holly Bond's transformative approach to recruiting and her invaluable advice for job seekers, tune into Episode #303 of the Chief Change Officer podcast, available on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube @chiefchangeofficer.

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Timestamp Reference

<a id="timestamp"></a>

• 03:33: Holly discusses initial hesitations about returning to recruiting.
• 05:20: Partnership with Royer Thompson and alignment with Kim West’s vision.
• 07:15: Realization of the importance of empathy over revenue in recruitment.
• 12:05: Emphasis on personalized communication with candidates.
• 16:45: Holly on the role of AI in making recruitment more efficient.
• 17:10: Limitations of AI in replicating human empathy and emotional intelligence.
• 25:17: Holly’s advice on the importance of networking for job seekers.
• 25:50: Importance of continuous learning and adaptability.
• 30:22: The necessity of authenticity in resumes and interviews.

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Note: Timestamps are based on the provided transcript and correspond to the moments when the quotes and discussions occur.

Transcript

[Holly]

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[Vince Chen]

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[Holly]

Foreign.

[Vince Chen]

Welcome to our show Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a Modernist Humility for Change. Progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. In the last episode, part one, we heard Holly's story of being a mother of two and taking 17 years to earn her college degree. All while starting and building a successful fitness franchise business. Now in part two, Holly will share with us why she decided to re enter the recruitment industry. This time she is the boss heading up a head hunting business. She will tell us about her human first approach to survey not only her corporate clients, but also the candidates themselves. She will also offer valuable down to earth advice to job seekers. Holly, you've come full circle. You started as a recruiter, went through numerous transformations and challenges and now you're back in recruiting. This time though, you are doing it your way. What made you decide to return to recruiting and how do you want it to be different this time?

[Holly]

Yeah, when I talked to my friends, when I told them that I was going to do this, they all were shocked and they all laughed at me because I was a recruiter 20 years ago. And there was elements that I really liked about it, but there was a lot that I didn't. And I left and I left because in recruiting we're dealing with people, people with families, people with emotions. And people are complex. Right at the end of the day, what we always have to remember as recruiters, people are very complex. And the parent company of my company is Royer Thompson. And Royer Thompson's been around almost 30 years. And Kim west is the president of Royer Thompson and about seven years ago she bought the company and she rebranded it. She breathed a new, more innovative breath into it. And they're spectacular. The process is very filled with empathy and curiosity. And I have known Kim for years. And Kim came to me and asked me if I would open a new division of Royer Thompson, open a new, basically a new company. Royer Thompson does the C suite, board and academia. And when they were successfully conducting the searches they would inevitably be asked to work on other searches. Executive directors, senior managers, so that intermediate manager to more of a VP role. So we play in that space. And when she came and asked me, I said no. And I actually said no for almost two years because I remembered what it was like when I was a recruiter before. And many recruitment companies work almost like real estate agents here in Canada where they're paid 100% commission. So recruiters, not only do they go out and get the business, so they have to find the client. And when they find the client, that doesn't mean the client's going to give them a search. So they find the client and they have to network and build that. When they do get a search, they place candidates and then they send the invoice and they probably get 50 to 60% of that invoice, whatever the company allows them to get. So it's very commission based and you can make a lot of money. When I did it 20 years ago, when I was leaving, I was making a lot of money. It's very compelling, right? And the more you do it, the more network you have, the bigger network is and the easier it is to do the searches. I remember one day I was in my office speaking to this man. He was, I remember it exactly, he was 42 years old. He did not have his degree and at that time I did not have my degree. I was close, but I didn't have it. And he didn't have his degree and he was working with his company for over 20 years and he was let go. They did a restructuring and he Was let go. He had a wife and a daughter and every morning they would go off to school and work. He had been traveling 80% of the time for his work. So he was getting depressed and anxious and he was frozen. He was frozen like in a panic. He didn't know what to do. He's in my office and he gets very emotional. And then I talk to him about how to find a job. I was going through all the steps, this is what you're going to do. And he was leaving and he said, I feel so much better, thank you so much. He said, but I know tomorrow morning I'm going to feel like rubbish. This wave of panic, I can't explain. And I said, then you call me every morning for 10 minutes. We will go over what you're going to do that day. And he called me every day for 10 minutes. And he ended up getting three job offers, none from me or my firm, but he had three job offers. And he wrote the president of my company and said how much I helped him. However, he was in my office for an hour and a half and the comment from one of my teammates was, this is non revenue generating time that you just spent. And when those words were uttered, I realized I was in the wrong place. Because how can you possibly, how can you possibly assign a dollar value to sitting in front of somebody while they're crying and they trust you so much that they're crying and they need your help. So I realized that wasn't the space for me. So fast forward a couple four years ago when Kim west comes to me and says, can you open a new division? And I said, absolutely not. I never. No, I know recruiters have a bad reputation and because they are commission based, their focus is on pleasing the client, not the candidate. We had these conversations on and off, and then finally she said, what would it take? And I said, what it would take is for me to do it different, hire people. I will not pay commission. We will hire people and pay them a wonderful salary. And we want them to do the job because they love helping people find the place that they need to be and that they put that time in and have the empathy and the curiosity and they just do it because they love it. And so she said, okay, do that. For a lot of companies, this is what they want and that's okay. I'm not saying the contingency recruiting is bad, but it's just not for me. But what recruiters in contingency say is, vince, I can find that person for you, but I'M going to charge you 22, 25% of first year salary. But if I don't find that person, you don't have to pay me. So you have nothing to lose. Vince, why wouldn't you use me? But what that means internally to me as a recruiter, it means, Vince, I'm going to look and if I can't find something, somebody really quickly, if it's really complex, if it's hard and it's taking up all my time, I'm not going to do it because I'm not going to get the money because I'm on 100% commission. Right. So it doesn't, to me, it doesn't work when you're dealing with people. So I came on board, I did focus groups and Vince, everything that you can possibly imagine somebody saying about a recruiter was said in that focus group. So I had 25 to 50 year olds in a focus group. They answered anonymously the questions that we had. And so the first question was, what words would you use to describe a recruiter? And I knew it was going to be negative, most of them, but I thought it was actually quite funny, tragic, the words that they were using. Bloodsucker, just the worst words. Selfish, high commission, you name it, it was, they were just not good. I had an analogy of somebody saying a recruiter will treats you like a canned good in a pantry. They will reach in the very back of the pantry and grab you like you're an old can of beans. Blow the dust, wipe the dust off the top. They will present that to the client. And if the client doesn't want that can of beans, they'll put it back in the very back of the pantry and you will never hear from them again. And, and I thought that was. And when, so when we started, when I started the company, I said, okay, that's easy, we won't do that. That's very simple. That's easy. We'll treat candidates with the respect that they deserve. And we will answer them when they email, we will answer them when they call because they don't get answers. Right. And so yes, so we started fast. We launched it almost two years ago. The folks group helped with the name and then I hired my first employee and we worked on the website together. Then we hired our director and then we, all three of us were working on this. Now there's six of us and we're going to be growing in the fall. We're doing work across Canada. Now we're moving in the United States and in the Search that's coming up soon. We're doing it with empathy and caring for the people in their lives. I'm constantly saying to the team, we are changing lives. So you could be sitting at your desk, you're not looking for a job, you're just existing. You're not living. You're just doing your job. And somebody calls you and you pick up the phone, like happened to me. And that changed my life that day. That person called me and said, do you know anybody that would be good for the pulp and paper industry? What if I didn't get that call, Vince? What would I be doing right now? I don't even know. It's like life is pinball game, right? Where you're hit off a bumper and then you're going in a different direction. That phone call, I hit a bumper and it went off in a completely different direction. And that's what we do for people. They. We send them an email or a phone call and we say, this is what we're thinking. What do you think? They're so excited that they can't believe that this is even happening. And then they go through the interview process, which we also make caring and lovely. And we hear that all the time. We hear, this has been so much fun. When do you go to an interview and someone says, this has been so much fun because it should be fun. And that's how. That's how you get to know people. And there's no AI tool that can make an interview fun. And where you get people to drop their guards and open up. That's when you know the real them. And when you know them as a person and as a potential employee, then. And it's genuine. Then you know what would work best for your client. Because when you know your client, really, you go, oh, my gosh, that is a perfect match. It's a little bit like matchmaking, right? So we're growing so rapidly. We're having so much fun. I love it. I love making that phone call and changing people's lives and telling people that push back. Like when you called me, when you sent me a message, Vince, and you said, you should be on my podcast. And I said, oh, I don't have anything to say that anybody would listen to. And you came back to me again, and I said, I don't think I'm the person that should be on your podcast. And you said, yes, that's what we do the same thing. We say, what about this opportunity? And they say, I don't have this. And this. I Don't know. You get them excited and then you hold their hand and you take that next step together. And I think that's what I love about it. Wow.

[Vince Chen]

Based on what you just said, it sounds like I could be a perfect headhunter myself. Though I have to admit, I haven't had any pleasant experiences with headhunters in my life so far.

[Holly]

Yes, you would.

[Vince Chen]

We can surely talk about this offline. Aside from that, I believe a host, a headhunter and a CEO are no different. We have a certain kind of superpower in seeing the potential in a person before they see it themselves or believe in it themselves. Don't you agree?

[Holly]

Yes. The other day I said I had this incredible role. I cunt the first person that popped into my head. I thought, oh my goodness, she would be perfect. I sent her a text message. I've known her many years. I said, take a look at this. And she looked at it and she texted me back and she said, I think I might know a couple people to connect you with. And I said, no, no, you this. I want you to talk to me about this rule. And she said, me? And I said, yes, read it again. You could do this. And she called me and she goes, oh my gosh, I can, I could do it. She said, but I'm in my 60s. And I said, nobody cares. I don't care. We don't care. Age is a number. You're so wise. You've done this job a million times. You can do it. But she was hung up because she's in her early 60s. And I wanted to tell people that doesn't matter. That's when you're just, you have so much, so much mind share of what you're working on and those are the people that. I just love it to find people that haven't really pictured themselves in that role and then to tell them what the reasons why they should.

[Vince Chen]

Just a few weeks ago, I released an episode where I talked to a good friend of mine, Mary Shay, who is now partnering with an AI driven HR tech company. They help corporate recruiters and executive search firms locate desirable candidates not just for transactional positions, but also for unique senior opportunities. In that interview, Mary explained how the technology works. I also shared my experience at age 51, having job interview with some corporate recruiters that felt completely dehumanized. We discussed how AI might make the experience more personalized for experienced workers. Anyone interested can check out episode four in season two. But back to you, Holly. You're very much a people person, human centric in your view? Not to ask you to be an oracle, but I would like to know, in your opinion, how might AI technology add value to your process of searching for the right candidates? On top of that, what do you think is the competitive advantage of you as a human recruiter that AI cannot replace?

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[Vince Chen]

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[Sponsor]

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[Holly]

Yes. And that's that of course is the hottest topic I think in every sector, in every organization and certainly with this one and both Royer Thompson and Facet, we, we are very aligned. I think if you're doing mass recruiting, I think that AI would be extremely helpful. You know, so if you're for many reasons but I for example, if you're opening a new Walmart in a new city, I think AI would help you immensely if you have to hire hundreds of people. I really do and I think AI, and we are using AI at facet. We are not built for speed. We have a process and it works, and we go through that process. So each of our searches take about 10 weeks, and we have it down perfectly, but there are places in those phases. So it's four phases that we go through. And there are certainly times where AI will help us, especially help us not miss anything, help us become more efficient. Every month we have an efficiency meeting and we always talk about AI. So with LinkedIn Recruiter, for example, that uses AI, we will use that to help source candidates and add to our pool. You've received this, Vince, where you get a message on your LinkedIn inbox and it goes, hi comma. And then it'll have somebody asking you if you're interested in a job, and they've sent it out to 3,000 people. That's not us. We will never do that. We will Never use the LinkedIn AI tool to have a template to send the same message to people. We will look at their background and it does make it slower, but we're okay with that because, again, we're dealing with people. So we will look at their LinkedIn profile or the resume and we will send a message to them, not a template. We will say, hey, I see that you're over in Prince Edward island, or you're in Toronto, I see that this is happening. Or we will make sure that they are. When they read it, they know an AI bot has not sent them a message. We need them to know that the beginning of the search starts with caring and curiosity, and an AI bot doesn't have either. One of those things where AI is really helpful is when you're interviewing 20 people, 30 people for a role, and it'll help transcribe your thoughts and put it into a very. And very quickly. And they will. It'll do that in a succinct way where you can. When you go to your client for the shortlist meeting, you say, these are the five candidates, here's the resume, and here is a succinct and concise description of them and their qualities and their characteristics and why they. You know, we always say, you know, we're looking for these four legs of the stool. They need to have these four things. So what is it that they have? But AI tools can really help with that, and it makes us more efficient. But AI doesn't have. And I'm not against AI, I use ChatGPT all the time. But it doesn't have empathy and emotional intelligence. So if I, and I always think back to myself. I didn't have my degree. It never stopped me from being headhunted. It never stopped me from doing any job. I was a headhunter and didn't have my degree and I was interviewing people that were much more well educated than I was. And that's why if you put in the Boolean search for your AI tool, they would never have picked me up. I would have slipped through the cracks. You need to have a human eye. And if you only look use AI to source individuals, you are going to miss some of the most incredibly talented people for this role. So we understand and respond to emotions, right? And we have years of nuanced understanding. So we have this intuition that has developed as we have those trips around the sun. But AI relies on data patterns and they will miss that. There's also so many gray areas. Human beings are meant to navigate complex dilemmas and work in the gray area, but an AI can't. When I look at role, when we, I shouldn't say I. When we look at a role, we will say, what adjacent careers would this person have had? That. And I'm going to use think outside the box. Like thinking outside the box. Where else could this person be? Instead of, we're looking for a senior director of finance, what else? Where else could they be? Senior director of marketing in the ocean tech sector. But where else could they be? Could they be in the agricultural sector, thinking outside the box and offering creative solutions that go beyond any algorithms? And then to me, the reason why you get into recruiting or the reason why you get into doing podcasts like yours is the personal connection. Building a personal relationship is uniquely human. You can inspire people, you can transform people, you can change the trajectory of their life because you care that AI cannot. So AI to me and to my group, it should be used to make us more efficient so that we can spend more time on personal connection. That's what we're using AI for, more time with people. And you have to be a job seeker in an AI driven market, right? So you need to know how to balance both.

[Vince Chen]

Now, now you've just brought up the final question of the day. Job seekers, whether they like it or not, have to navigate an AI driven recruitment market. Personally, I still believe in the creativity, the human creativity you mentioned, as well as the human elements that make someone stand out as a desirable candidate. But not every recruiter is like you and not every firm has policies and approaches like yours. So if you could give advice to job seekers, regardless of age or culture, what would it be, especially for those in their late 40s, 50s, or even 60s, who might have been in one industry for a long time, but whose skills and experiences could be applicable across different sectors? For candidates seeking changes and new opportunities, how can they position themselves better and stronger for this new norm?

[Holly]

It's really. Back when I was a recruiter, I would put a job in the paper and then come into work in the morning and I'd have resumes on the fax like people would fax their resumes in. It's so funny how things have changed, isn't it? Half the people listening don't even know what a fax machine is. I think it's not funny. So one of the things that we do at fastest is building your network. It doesn't matter where you are in the world, it doesn't matter who you are, your personal connections are invaluable. There's the old fashioned, I always think the middle aged white man standing with your suit and tie and your drink and that kind of networking. Younger people don't want that anymore. I don't want that anymore. And those men don't want it anymore. So we have networking events that we've created where people a learn how to network, especially through Covid, those skills have declined and younger people who went to university and graduated through Covid, they didn't really learn how to do that. So showing them that networking is an art form and that it's an easy one, but it's an art form and it's something that you need to devote time every week to and do it in a genuine way because personal connections, they are invaluable. You have to attend what is your favorite industry, attend those industry events, go to the webinars, put your camera on networking groups to build those relationships and get insights into the job opportunities. Vince, I can't tell you how many times I am working with a client. They tell me the strategy and in that strategy they will say next year we're going to hire this role, this role. And so I know these organizations and what they're going to do be looking for. When I'm talking to somebody, I can say, oh my gosh, you know what? Next year this person is exactly who they're looking for. And I will contact my client and I'll say, look, I know that you don't have the job right now, but I have somebody that is perfect for the culture of your organization. You would love them. Can I make the introduction? And they do. And then they offer them a job that they've created a year early. So not all jobs are posted. And when you. This is going to sound a little bit out there, but I do believe that we are on a journey and when you put it out there to the universe will conspire to get you what you want. If I want to move into another kind of sector, then I will attend those industry events, I will talk to people, I will think about it, I will read about it, and I will tell people, look, I'm looking for a job in this industry. Do you know any roles? And then you have informational interviews. Could I have 20 minutes of your time just to learn about you? Everybody loves talking about themselves. Tell me about you and your journey. And then after you're done, do you know two other people that you could introduce me to? And then they will. And then you keep. And that's how you network and you keep building it and they will give you two people and then you just know who they are. Next time you're at an event or, you know, embrace lifelong learning in technology. AI, it just shows adaptability and a commitment to growth. And make sure that you update your resume. I tell people when I hire people, and it's really funny because I see their faces when I say it. Their first day at the job, I go, okay, you know the very first thing you need to do? And they say, no, I said, you need to get your resume and put it on your desktop. You have the job description now, because I just hired you and this is the job description. Update your resume. And they look at me like, do you want me to leave? I'm like, always have your resume on your desktop. Because when you have that big sale or you improve efficiency by 30% or whatever it is, go into your resume, make the change. And then it's always up to date. It's like a will. Your will should be up to date and so should your cv. But the. I had a resume the other day and it, at the bottom it said, last three books I read. And I thought, I really like that. I haven't seen that before. It shows me what a little bit. It gives me a clue of what they're like when it's leveraging AI wisely. Mary Shea, her podcast will explain that. And there's other tools and resources and I won't go into those. You know, you need to be caught in. If they're going to do a Boolean search, if they're going to do and use an AI tool to capture resumes, you refine your resume and cover letter and to the specifications that they're looking for. You know the keywords that they're that are going to catch your resume and cover letter but just make sure that the reflect your true personality and your experience and customize each application to the job in the company. Don't do have one resume and just send it out. You're not going to get the job. Be authentic. I had a job that was posted. I'm done the interviews. I submitted my shortlist and I have eight incredible candidates. This person emailed me an hour before my shortlist meeting with the client. And the shortlist meeting is very intense because they're asking you a ton of questions about the people that you've interviewed and you need to be on. You need to be really good. So an hour before I looked at my email and this person emailed me. She said, I know that you are probably finished the search and you've probably talked to your client and so I don't want to interrupt your process. And she was thinking of me when she was emailing, but I would really, this job speaks to me and if they don't find the person in this go around, I would love to be considered. She didn't demand, she didn't call and leave a message on my machine. She just said this. And I said, can you talk right now? And I talked to her 15 minutes. She took the risk. She just put herself out there. And I said, I'm going to put you forward. I don't even, I haven't even interviewed you. I don't even know you, but I get such a great sense from you. I'm going to put you on the list and tell them about my conversation and that I think that they should consider meeting you. And they are. She's going to get an interview even though it was really shut down. So it's putting yourself out there and going after. So if you see a. You wouldn't believe how many times I say to people that are looking for jobs, I'll say, I've been here my entire life. I have not left the east coast of Canada. And so my network is very deep and broad. And I will say to people, look, before you apply for a job, contact me. And just in case I know somebody there because I can make a warm introduction and very few people take me up on that. And I'm always, because they know me, they know I'm genuinely meaning this. Very few people do. And I'm always curious as to why because I'm happy to help Them. So if you're going to apply for a job, go into LinkedIn, see who you know that's connected to anybody in the company and go that route first. Find out, do research. Don't just apply for the job, do your research first and get in and find somebody who knows somebody. Then work your way back from there. The most important thing, though, is to be genuine. Whether you're in your writing a cover letter or interviewing. It's like any relationship. If I'm genuine and I'm telling you what I'm great at, what I love to do, what I'm not so great at and what I don't really like to do, and I'm telling you the honest truth and the client is telling you the honest truth about their culture and how, how you can help them, and you're both telling each other you're both being genuine, then you're going to develop a relationship based on honesty, just like any other relationship, any other human relationship, it'll be genuine and honest and it'll work. If you pretend that you know how to do something that you don't. If you are not genuine and honest, like any relationship, it's going to be rocky. Right. And so I think it's that and networking. I can't stress it enough. The AI is out there, but it's not a person. And people will help you. And you just need to expand the network and have fun doing it and make it part of your daily, weekly routine. And you learn so much by having these conversations. But you know what? I forgot one of the best things about networking, one of the best things about having a very large network, it's easier to help people. Right. So it's not just networking so that you have numbers and they can help you with their career. It is when somebody calls me and they need whatever, it doesn't matter, like they want to start a business or they need a job or whatever, the issue that they're having. My network is so broad now that I'm able to help people and not just myself, but help others and connect others. And that's the best part about having that network.

[Vince Chen]

Absolutely. That is reciprocity, the core essence of building relationships, every kind of relationship. Holly, thank you so much for not only your time, but your honest sharing. A lot of posts I can create from your interview. So much information, really valuable information. Thank you so much.

[Holly]

It has been such a pleasure speaking with you and the questions that you asked me were, I just, I love them, but it actually, it's almost like therapy. Vince. So you're asking me these questions that I don't talk about these things every day. I don't even think about them every day. But when you gave me a chance to reflect, and I'm so happy about my path, like, you've made me realize, when I look back and see my path, I'm so happy with the journey that I've been on and where I'm at right now. And thank you for that. It's. You've opened up my eyes to that, and I really appreciate you allowing me that. I feel honored to be on your show, and I was. I felt honored when you sent me a message to be on your show because I've listened to the podcast. Your guests are phenomenal, and I will continue to listen in the future. But it's so important, and your podcast is. It's different. I was on. I was listening to a podcast the other day. There's, like, three people on a panel, and I had to turn it off because everybody's talking over each other, and it was like. It was just frustrating to try to listen to. And yours are calming. And the questions. You're asking the right questions. The questions that if you ever listen to a talk show, an interview on the news, you're like, ask them this. Ask them this, but they don't ask this, oh, agenda.

[Vince Chen]

Because you.

[Holly]

Yes, exactly. And. And even Oprah Winfrey. I'm like, I asked them this question. Why aren't you asking? But you ask the exact questions, and they're. They're talking, and then I'm like, what about this, though? And then you ask that question, the next question. It's like, you're in my head. Yeah. I just love them. I've had interviews where I'm going through my career, but that's different. This is different. This is walking through my journey and talking about it in a very human, centric, and emotional way. And I just feel. I feel different. I feel. So. It's, like, cathartic for me. I feel like I just had a. A therapy session, and it made me stop and think about why did I do what I do? So, thank you very much. That is the value. That's the huge value for the people. Your guests on your podcast is that you give them the opportunity to think about things, that. They're busy people. Everybody's busy, but they're busy doing what they're doing. But you give them an opportunity to reflect on why they're doing it. And that is an. That's an incredible gift. That's the gift that you're giving people, Vince. So thank you very much.

[Vince Chen]

Wow. This is truly amazing to to get this kind of feedback from a guest on the spot during the show. I'm very, very grateful. Holly, thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show. Leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Vin Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.