#318 Edward & Tricia: Collaborate to Compete—The Human Advantage

Summary

Podcast Summary: Chief Change Officer Episode #318 – Edward & Tricia: Collaborate to Compete—The Human Advantage

Release Date: April 23, 2025
Hosted by: Vince Chan

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Introduction

In episode #318 of Chief Change Officer, host Vince Chan engages in a profound conversation with Edward van Duden and Tricia Chiron, exploring the indispensable role of collaboration in today's workplace. The discussion delves into the challenges organizations face, the foundational principles of effective collaboration, and actionable strategies to foster a collaborative environment that drives innovation and competitive advantage.

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The Importance of Collaboration in the Modern Workplace

Vince Chan opens the episode by highlighting the pervasive issue of burnt bridges in professional environments:

"Today though is so easy to burn and build bridges you can add a friend in quotation in one second and just as easily delete them." [01:18]

He underscores the necessity of maintaining sustainable connections to enhance teamwork and achieve collective success. Vince introduces his guests, Edward and Tricia, who have transformed their decade-long professional relationship into a thriving business partnership and co-authorship of a book on collaboration.

Tricia Chiron elaborates on the critical role of collaboration, citing compelling statistics:

"In 2014, there were a couple different studies that said collaboration was the cause for 86% of workplace failures." [06:06]

She emphasizes that effective collaboration harnesses individuals' unique skills and fosters an environment where everyone feels valued and motivated.

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Challenges in Embracing Collaboration

The conversation shifts to the underlying reasons why collaboration remains a significant challenge in organizations. Tricia identifies several barriers:

1. Sense of Superiority: Individuals may believe certain tasks are beneath them or that they must work alone to maintain control.
2. Insecurity in Leadership: Leaders who feel unprepared may exhibit negative behaviors that hinder team collaboration.
3. Lack of Gratitude: Undervaluing team members' contributions can erode trust and willingness to collaborate.

Tricia poignantly states:

"Leadership is an inside game and collaboration is an inside game. And nothing changes outside until we change inside." [29:02]

Edward van Duden adds:

"We have to focus on ourselves and going back to that Gandhi quote, be the change that you seek." [31:41]

He highlights that organizational structures, often rooted in outdated competitive models, further complicate the adoption of collaborative practices.

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Introducing "Collaborate to Compete" and the Noble Purpose

The heart of the discussion centers around Edward and Tricia's book, "Collaborate to Compete," which advocates for internal collaboration as a pathway to external success. The concept of a noble purpose is introduced as a unifying vision that aligns individual and organizational goals.

Vince seeks clarity on the noble purpose:

"So tell me more about this noble purpose. How do you define it?" [12:27]

Tricia explains:

"Noble purpose is really a combination of vision and mission, but it's more than that... it gives us all some meaning in our lives." [12:27]

She illustrates how connecting daily tasks to a larger, emotionally resonant mission can significantly boost motivation and engagement among team members.

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The Five Collaborative Behaviors

A pivotal segment of the episode explores the five key behaviors essential for fostering collaboration:

1. Generosity
2. Co-Creation
3. Action
4. Resourcefulness
5. Gratitude

Edward emphasizes the primacy of these behaviors over mere task completion:

"The five behaviors are radically human and they have to be put in the first position because the how you work is based on it being more important than what you're doing." [19:47]

Tricia provides an in-depth overview of each behavior:

• Generosity: Encouraging a safe environment where team members feel valued and are willing to share ideas without fear.

  "Generosity is basically giving to others... creating a safe environment for people to Grow and contribute." [22:12]

• Resourcefulness: Leveraging tools, information, and networks creatively to solve problems.

• Co-Creation: Collaboratively brainstorming and developing solutions through active listening and open-ended questioning.

• Action: Encouraging proactive decision-making even in the face of incomplete information.

  "You will never have all the information you need to act, but if you take an action... you're going to make progress." [22:12]

• Gratitude: Recognizing and appreciating team members' efforts to foster a supportive and motivating work environment.

  "Gratitude is how you respond to generosity and to work... It's really important for teams to have recovery and rest." [22:12]

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Implementing Collaborative Practices: Practical Insights

Towards the end of the episode, Vince seeks actionable advice for listeners aiming to enhance collaboration within their teams. Edward suggests:

"Take just a quick informal poll of yourselves. Which one of these collaborative behaviors am I good at that I understand and I show consistently at work?" [34:57]

This self-assessment encourages leaders to identify and leverage their strengths in the five behaviors, fostering a foundation for a more collaborative team dynamic.

Tricia adds practical methods to nurture these behaviors:

• Generosity: Create opportunities for team members to share ideas and recognize their unique contributions through personalized acknowledgments.
• Co-Creation: Facilitate environments where open dialogue and brainstorming are encouraged without immediate judgment.
• Action: Promote a culture where taking initiative is valued over perfection, allowing for learning through experimentation.
• Resourcefulness: Encourage continuous learning and networking to enhance problem-solving capabilities.
• Gratitude: Implement regular recognition practices, such as thank-you notes or celebratory team events, to maintain morale and appreciation.

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Concluding Thoughts

The episode wraps up with Vince expressing enthusiasm for the forthcoming book and encouraging listeners to apply the discussed principles:

"For today's listeners, whether they're managing a team, building a startup, or even a CEO of a larger firm...any quick practical advice for them?" [32:17]

Edward and Tricia reinforce the importance of starting with self-improvement and embedding collaborative behaviors into daily practices to achieve sustainable success.

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Key Takeaways

• Collaboration is Essential: Effective collaboration can address major workplace challenges, including innovation stagnation, employee engagement, and stress.
• Five Core Behaviors: Embracing generosity, co-creation, action, resourcefulness, and gratitude is foundational to building collaborative teams.
• Noble Purpose: Aligning individual roles with a larger, meaningful mission enhances motivation and team cohesion.
• Overcoming Barriers: Addressing internal and structural barriers is crucial for fostering a truly collaborative environment.
• Practical Application: Leaders should assess their strengths in collaborative behaviors and actively cultivate these traits within their teams.

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Notable Quotes

• Tricia Chiron on Collaboration’s Role:

  "Collaboration is two or more people working toward a common goal where they are using all of their knowledge, skills, resources and potential to achieve it." [06:06]

• Vince Chan on the Book’s Concept:

  "So that's why the name of the book is Collaborate to compete. Collaborate internally to compete successfully externally, right?" [11:32]

• Tricia Chiron on Noble Purpose:

  "We're designing spaces and rides that are fun... but what continues to drive you is the memory of doing this for a family to connect and see each other." [15:59]

• Edward van Duden on Internal Change:

  "We have to focus on ourselves and going back to that Gandhi quote, be the change that you seek." [31:41]

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Conclusion

Episode #318 of Chief Change Officer provides a comprehensive exploration of the pivotal role collaboration plays in modern organizations. Through the insights of Edward van Duden and Tricia Chiron, listeners gain valuable strategies to overcome collaborative challenges, implement foundational behaviors, and align their teams with a noble purpose. This episode serves as a crucial guide for leaders aiming to cultivate a harmonious and innovative workplace.

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For more insights and episodes, join the Chief Change Officer community on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

Transcript

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[Vince Chan]

Hi everyone, welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer hi, I'm Vince Chan, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change. Progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world don't burn bridges. Keep up with business connections and personal relationships because you never know when that connection or person could become your collaborator, business partner or referral to a great opportunity. That's how I landed five job offers within three months after leaving a role that led to mental depression years ago. Today though is so easy to burn and build bridges you can add a friend in quotation in one second and just as easily delete them. This use of friendly in quotation UI UX experience has seeped into our modern mindset, making it effortless to kick people out of our own circles or lives. But without sustainable connections, how can we collaborate, build stronger teams and create outcomes that benefit everyone? In today's episode, I sit down with two guests, Edward van Duden and Tricia Chiron to talk about connection and collaboration. Yesterday, Edward and Trishear reflected on their own collaborative journey which started 10 years ago at Disney. They turned a positive work relationship into a sustainable personal friendship that has now grown into a business partnership and a co authoring collaboration on a book about collaboration. Today, Part two will dive into the vision and framework for collaboration centered on a noble purpose and five key behaviors. What are these behaviors, how can we practice them and why is collaboration so challenging? Today, I assure you the method isn't just another software solution is far more human centered than what we're used to seeing. Let's start collaborating before we dive into the five principles in your book and the noble purpose behind it, I want to ask why does this book Matter. On the flip side, what is the problem you're trying to solve with the book? From what you've shared with me so far, you believe collaboration is the solution to many of the biggest workplace challenges. So if collaboration is the key, that means there are a lot of issues in the workplace today. What are those problems as you see them?

[Tricia Chiron]

We see collaboration as two or more people working toward a common goal where they are using all of their knowledge, skills, resources and potential to achieve it. And that's important because they have to feel like they're also uniquely contributing. Like you were, Vince, in that job where you were so excited to get out of bed. So it's important that they feel that. I think also then the problem when people say collaborate, I'll back up. In 2014, there were a couple different studies that said collaboration was the cause for 86% of workplace failures. And that was Salesforce. And there was another study done that they were looking at Australia, and if they could just solve the problem of collaboration, they would make another 46 billion a year. And Australia is a fairly small economy compared to some other countries, and that's a significant amount of money. And as we look at these statistics of people measuring problems in the workplace place of not being engaged and quiet quitting and having stress, like the youngest generation coming into the workforce, 91% of them experience at least one kind of stress, which is basically saying everyone is stressed. We do think collaboration is the solution because the way we have designed it, you can design it into yourself and into your team and into your company. We're saying that you should design meaning and purpose, which is the noble purpose for the company and for the individuals. And we're saying you should always be leveling up yourself in these behaviors of generosity and resourcefulness and co creation and action, gratitude. Because all five of those, we pick them for certain reasons, because they interact and support each other and build on each other, and they actually impact our brain in different and similar ways that help us to think better, to be more resilient, to be more confident, to be happier and all these other things. But we also have seen that people say, oh, go collaborate. But they don't understand what that means. What we have discovered in our work or what we believe from the work that we've done is that people just simply don't understand what collaboration is and they're spending billions of dollars on a problem they don't understand. Two issues with that. People think that the core unit of collaboration is teams or tools or technologies, but we're Saying no, the core unit of collaboration is the individual. And so we all have to work on our individual skills first or we won't be able to collaborate with anyone. There's this other piece of collaboration is not one action, it's a collection of actions or behaviors. So you need. That's why we say these five behaviors. If you have these, you will be collaborative and your team will be collaborative. And so those misunderstandings, it's like people say, go collaborate when they, like they say, go ride a bike. You didn't learn how to ride a bike by doing one thing. You had to learn how to pedal the wheels and balance and use the handlebars and there's all these other things. So. So it's actually a slightly more complex activity. But once you get it, we believe that you will become an incredibly high performer and develop a high performance team.

[Edward van Duden]

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, Trish. I believe the problem that we solve with collaboration is radically increasing innovation. Every CEO, every C suite leader, every middle manager is trying to increase innovation. That's the problem that collaboration solves is we deliver innovation not only in leadership and building teams, but using the five behaviors, as Tricia says, to be more efficient, to drive career growth, to drive better solutions because they're collaborative decisions and solutions in a virtual world where running a business has never been more difficult. So the why is expanding innovation. And we reflect that in our book title, which is Collaborate to compete. Let's not compete with our colleagues. Wasted effort, waste of time. We collaborate so we as a company can innovate and compete better with others outside the company. So it's really the focus of what we want to do is collaborate. And the why, Vince, with your excellent question is to increase innovation exponentially.

[Vince Chan]

So that's why the name of the book is Collaborate to compete. Collaborate internally to compete successfully externally, right?

[Edward van Duden]

Yes. But don't become a competitor. Use the same. To your excellent earlier question, Vin and Trish, as we're all talking about, use the behaviors, use the noble purpose outside as well. Don't turn into a different person once you're outside the company. You're a collaborative leader, you've built a collaborative team, extend those behaviors and noble purpose and process and roadmap that Trish was describing to your life. That's the true, we feel innovation here.

[Vince Chan]

So tell me more about this noble purpose. How do you define it?

[Tricia Chiron]

Noble purpose is really a combination of vision and mission, but it's more than that. So you have your company vision and mission, but then you might have a team who is doing a project within the company. And so you want to take that noble purpose for the company. Let's say the noble purpose for the company is we make diapers and deliver them 24 hours a day to serve families at the messiest time in their life. And so that's an important thing. Like you're literally saving some mother's sanity and some little baby from diaper rash. That's the big emotional, noble purpose of it. So there's like what you are physically doing and the customer, the value and the change and the impact that you're having on their lives now, that can get lost when you're just a little person on a team maybe developing a new app for the company, you're the person programming and you can lose sight of the noble purpose for the company. And so we always ask the leaders that you have to take that noble purpose and explain it to your team, the importance of this app for your end customer. Right? Not just for the company. Roi, this app is going to now be accessible to the mother or father for them to access and order diapers to be delivered within eight hours. Then with that like programmer, you also want to let them know, look, this app wouldn't happen without your unique skills. And our team wouldn't even function that if you didn't have that sense of levity in your work and the outgoing curiosity that you have. So a leader wants to bring that noble purpose to the individual in a very specific and unique way so that person feels seen and valued for everything that they're bringing to the job and to the company and to the people they are serving in the bigger world.

[Edward van Duden]

We don't spend enough time, first of all, articulating what the noble purpose is and the why. So link that, Vince, to your earlier question about you being motivated to want to go to work at one of your past workplaces. What happens? We are in back to back meetings for 10 hours a day. We're just trying to get tasks done. But we need to spend time, as Trish says, sharing what is the noble purpose with the team and with each individual to ensure they understand the why. And tie it back to Vince, what you said so that I do feel like I want to get my head off the pillow and go to work, which I did at Disney, because the noble purpose is incredibly motivating at Disney to create things every day. So tie the noble purpose, explaining the why, making sure it resonates and is real for the team member so that they want to get their head off the pillow. And want to go to work and also at the end of the day, have a dinner conversation. That's exciting. Oh, this happened at work today. Oh, this team member did this. Our leader shared this information with me. Those are the deeply human metrics that drive collaboration and I think we were able to do that.

[Tricia Chiron]

Edward and I were both at Walt Disney Imagineering, so we were working to design the theme parks and experiences around the world. And one of my very first attractions that I did was in Epcot. And it was a small little attraction where you design a robot and then you race on a dance pad. You have these different winners. Opening week, there was this family that came in to play. It was a father and mother, a very like, annoyed, cynical looking teenage boy and a little girl. They start playing the game, they're looking, and then they start getting a little competitive with each other. Then they race. And when they left the attraction, they were literally like walking off the dance pads. And the son and the father like high fived each other and the son's face was so transformed, like he had had fun and laughter. And their engagement while they were playing, it created a different space for them to engage. How they looked at each other was different and how they experienced each other was different. The dad put his arm around his son as they were walking out and I literally almost started crying. I might have been crying because that's the noble purpose for imagineers. Yes, we're building these beautiful spaces and these rides that are fun. But what continues to drive you when you're working 247 trying to install an attraction or something is the memory of, I'm doing this for that family that has no other place where they can connect and see each other in the most important way. Fulfilling that desire that a parent has to connect with their kid and have a memory, express love in a way they can't express it. That's what noble purpose when you can explain it to your team members, it's powerful and it gives us all kind of meaning in our lives.

[Vince Chan]

As I'm listening to you, I'm visualizing this noble purpose as being at the top. And then these five principles you mentioned serve as the pillars supporting and driving that purpose. If I'm understanding correctly, these principles are the foundation for everything. I love. To learn more about each of these fundamental behaviors, could you walk me through them?

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[Edward van Duden]

I would offer that the five behaviors of generosity, co creation, action, resourcefulness and gratitude are first in collaborate to compete. Why are they first? Because they really about how we work is much more important than what we're doing. You need the what. But in most performance management systems that we've all been in, we've created, we've designed, we've led, and we've had to communicate to our team members. Put what first? What are your goals? Oh, okay, you did your goals wonderfully. Okay, you were a nice person at the same time, but oh, sometimes you weren't a nice person, but that's okay because you accomplished your goals. In a way, the five behaviors are radically human and they have to be put in the first position because the how you work is based on it being more important than what you're doing. Now the noble purpose as we've just been talking about is vital and has to happen as well. But it happens next. That makes sure that we're all aligned. But first we focus on as Trish said, the unit of collaboration is not the tool or whatnot. It's the human, it's the team member. And that's why that focus on the behaviors first and foremost and consistently demonstrating are really important. And then we add the noble purpose.

[Vince Chan]

When it comes to these five behaviors. Generosity, resourcefulness, co creation, action, and gratitude. I know each one could probably have an entire episode of its own with so much depth behind them, but I still love to get an overview of what they mean. In the context of your methodology, how do these behaviors show up? How can we nurture and manifest them not just for our own benefit, but also for the benefit of the team?

[Tricia Chiron]

I can add to what Edward said. Let's just start with generosity. Generosity is basically giving to others. So it's about how you give to others and it's always about assuming positive intent. When you are engaging with generosity and learning how to just be better at it and be more generous. You end up creating a safe environment for people to Grow and contribute, to speak up and to share crazy ideas like ones that might be really innovative. And so safety is really important for people to feel like they belong and to speak up and contribute the next one. Resourcefulness, it's a very practical thing that you can grow, but it's all about growing your tools, your information and your network. Not just having them, but seeing different ways of using them and connecting them so that you can always find the answers that you need. Which kind of leads into then co creation. You can't always figure it out yourself. So having another person there is really helpful. And co creation is an area of, as a leader, there's a lot of skills in there that you really do need to develop ongoing that are going to help you with brainstorming, with coming up with new ideas. But at the foundational level, co creation requires that you listen very well and that you ask open ended questions, more expansive questions so that you're gaining information versus judging or being a naysayer up front. So co creation is going to help you come up with new solutions for problems or those innovations or if something went terribly wrong and you pull your C suite together and you need, you're the CEO and need a bunch of ideas. You have the smartest people in the company there, so you don't want to screw it up and say, we've tried that before. You want to really ask open questions to get the best of everyone in the room in a way that's positive and playful because that's when they do their best. Then you're the leader, you have to take action. And a lot of people think they have to wait until they have all the information to act. And we're very much against that. You will never have all the information you need to act, but if you take an action, even if it's failed, you're going to learn and get more information and be able to make progress towards your goal or pivot. The last one is gratitude. You think about a high performance team, even athletes, they need to rest after delivering something or doing a lot of work. And gratitude is the thing that helps people breathe, even if it's for a moment or have that recovery. And so gratitude is how you respond to generosity and to work. We always say, don't just make it a feeling like, oh, I feel grateful. Show it. How are you showing? Thank you. And Edward would do this great thing of sending a little thank you card with a coffee card inside for one of our teammates who did a good job, which it's just thoughtful. It's just, it's not just the handwritten note, it's oh, go get a coffee and brainstorm with a friend. Or we would have special lunches to celebrate a big milestone and use those lunches to thank every person individually in front of the entire team and make a note of some unique contribution that they made. Sometimes it's like the big celebration at the end of the project. Gratitude is really important for teams to have recovery and rest and then rebuild that excitement to go get it again.

[Edward van Duden]

Not just feelings that are ambiguous. Tricia and I made a commitment to each other with senior leadership when we had to update them over the three year lifespan of our project as we did it together. And I think that was important so that we were hearing the same thing. It also showed that we were truly collaborative. We were showing up collaboratively. The visual is sometimes very important so that the collaboration looks like in big actions, small actions, every action are collaborative. It's a practical example of how we did that. We also depended on partnering with our leaders in this three year knowledge transfer project that we led. So we were very grateful and generous at the same time in providing feedback to the leaders in specific thank you written form for the contribution that they made to our project and that not had happened that often. So they remarked to us that they really liked that. Finally, the other leaders of the people that were on our team noticed. Hey, what are you guys doing over there? People love going to your meetings. They want to be on your collaboration team. Would you please come and speak to my leadership team about what you're doing over there in collaboration? So I feel that that was co creation. We were helping them out, but we were also generous with sharing our time. And when people are generous in sharing your time in the organization, that's another example of a collaborative behavior.

[Vince Chan]

Trisha, you've quoted some important statistics about the scale of these problems and we've gone deep into the method and solutions. But I want to shift from the macro view to a more micro view. We know these issues have economic implications, but why do we even have these problems in the first place? Another way to look at it is why is collaboration in organizations so difficult to embrace and practice? Is it due to office politics, ego, inexperienced or something else? Could you highlight some of the key hurdles you see when it comes to fostering real collaboration within a team?

[Tricia Chiron]

Yes, that's a really good point. There are barriers to collaboration. They sneak up on you and they can be barriers that are inside us that we don't maybe recognize or inside someone else. And we don't know why we think they're being a jerk, but really they have some barrier that speaks to a wound in their life in some way. But those barriers that we see most often are people who have a sense of superiority. So they don't think they have to do the work or it's beneath them or they have a big ego and want all the attention or I have to do everything myself. They like too self reliant and they think everyone else doesn't do it their way. And sometimes it's okay for people to do it a different way. And the one that is a little sneaky is insecurity. Where a leader, they might have just been put in a position that they're not fully equipped for. So their insecurity can come out in a negative way. But if you recognize what's going on, you can help them gain the tools and confidence that you need. And then the last one is really just about being ungrateful, like having ingratitude to see that you actually have some great people working around you who want to help you, that you have all these tools and these people. And so all these things are again, they speak to the behaviors. There are these internal things when you get in a work situation. To your question, the reason we I'll fail a lot is there hasn't been a lot of focus necessarily on developing what character looks like or what morality looks like in the workplace or doing the right thing or virtue even. It's like almost sounds old fashioned once you get into the workplace. We see each other and we're working with each other and it's a very external, internal thing. It's oh, I need this report. So I'm going to do this report. Oh, I need to serve this salad. So I'm making this salad. I need to build a construction project. It's all very external. We can get caught up in thinking that life is external. So much of what we experience is very internal. I think we've lost sight that leadership is an inside game and collaboration is an inside game. And nothing changes outside until we change inside.

[Edward van Duden]

We have to focus on ourselves and going back to that Gandhi quote, be the change that you seek. And I feel that we have to focus first on ourselves and that's important in collaboration. And the external influences, as you say Trish, are very strong. But it really has to start with the internal. We also have the challenge of company structures and resources and rewards really being based on a 1900s industrial competitive, productive model.

[Vince Chan]

Yes.

[Edward van Duden]

So not only are we needing as Trish brilliantly says, start with ourselves. Recognize how difficult it is to be collaborative when we're competing for bonus dollars, we're competing for headcount, we're competing for promotions. It's very counterintuitive. That's why, again, we call the book Collaborate to Compete. Because sometimes those collaboration behaviors are rewarded or recognized or valued. As Trish says, the values are off, but we feel that our noble purpose is really important with collaboration and can make a vast difference, as we've talked about in innovation, engagement, efficiency, career development, happiness, and many things. Being able to say, going back to our metric, I love my job.

[Tricia Chiron]

Yes. I just want to emphasize what Edward just said, because we're both designers and so we were like, how do you design collaboration onto a team? But what he just said is a truth that companies, their design, their structures are designed not necessarily to support collaboration or to reward teams, they reward individuals. And so there is a lot of external design that fights against us in a lot of ways.

[Edward van Duden]

You bet.

[Vince Chan]

I had the privilege of getting a sneak peek at the framework of your book. You've interviewed a lot of experienced and interesting figures to gather stories and lessons. I can't wait to read it myself once it hits the market. For today's listeners, whether they're managing a team, building a startup, or even a CEO of a larger firm. Want some actionable DIY do it yourself tips they can start implementing right after listening to this episode. Edward, you mentioned before that collaboration is a process. So what's something they can do now to kickstart that engine and move forward? More collaborative outcomes. Any quick practical advice for them?

[Edward van Duden]

Thank you and great question, Vince. I love the application because that's what we're all trying to do as leaders, is be better every day. One of the things we recommend is with the five behaviors, generosity, co creation, action, resourcefulness, and gratitude. We ask leaders to take just a quick informal poll of yourselves. Which one of these collaborative behaviors am I good at that I understand and I show consistently at work on the team with my peers. So pick the one or two of these five collaborative behaviors and recognize that you're good at this. Because we as leaders are not starting from scratch when we launch a new leadership model or trying to be better. We're always building and improving and also leveraging what we've done in the past. So we feel that one, two, or possibly even three of these collaborative behaviors leaders are already demonstrating now, but spend the time to understand them and keep demonstrating and applying them on the job.

[Vince Chan]

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show. Leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.

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