#352 Wayne Turmel: Leading Without Micromanaging in the Hybrid Mess

Summary

Chief Change Officer Podcast Summary

Episode #352: Wayne Twirl – Leading Without Micromanaging in the Hybrid Mess
Release Date: May 7, 2025
Host: Vince Chen

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Introduction

In episode #352 of the Chief Change Officer podcast, host Vince Chen engages in a profound conversation with leadership expert Wayne Twirl. The episode delves into the intricacies of long distance leadership in an era dominated by evolving communication technologies and hybrid work models. This discussion is particularly timely, coinciding with Amazon CEO’s announcement of a return-to-office (RTO) policy for 2025, a move that has ignited substantial debate within the corporate world.

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Wayne Twirl’s Background and Expertise

Wayne Twirl brings over two decades of experience in communication and leadership, positioning him as a leading authority on long distance leadership. Originating from Canada and initially pursuing journalism and stage performance, Twirl transitioned into the corporate realm, emphasizing the pivotal role of effective communication in leadership.

Wayne Twirl [03:10]: “The number one factor in how you're perceived as an executive, as an employee, is your ability to communicate.”

His collaboration with Kevin Eikenberry led to the creation of three influential books on leadership and remote work, solidifying their partnership as a powerhouse in the field of organizational transformation.

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Defining Long Distance Leadership

Long distance leadership transcends the mere physical separation of team members. Twirl defines it as the application of traditional leadership principles in environments where team members aren't co-located.

Wayne Twirl [05:43]: “Long distance leadership is taking what we know makes good leaders and always has and applying it when you are not always or sometimes ever in the same physical space as the people that you lead.”

He underscores that leadership roles—such as hiring, training, delegating, and coaching—remain constant, but the methods adapt to the mediated communication technologies. Effective long distance leadership demands intentionality and mindfulness to maintain trust, proactivity, and avoid micromanagement.

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Evolution of Leadership in the Hybrid Era

The transition to hybrid and remote work models has transformed leadership dynamics. Twirl emphasizes that technology has both facilitated and complicated leadership practices. Leaders must navigate the nuances of electronic communication to ensure that their teams remain cohesive and productive.

Wayne Twirl [07:43]: “If you think about the roles of a leader, a manager, an entrepreneur, you need to hire, you need to train, you need to delegate, you need to coach. Yep, all those things need to happen. But how we do it becomes different when we're mitigated and mediated by technology.”

Twirl points out challenges such as proximity bias in hybrid settings, where in-office employees may inadvertently receive more attention and opportunities than their remote counterparts. This bias can erode team morale and equity if not addressed with deliberate strategies.

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Second Edition Insights: Updates Post-COVID

The second edition of Twirl’s book introduces approximately 25% new or updated content, reflecting significant changes observed since the first edition’s pre-COVID publication. The primary updates focus on advancements in communication technology and the widespread adoption of remote work practices.

Wayne Twirl [13:37]: “The technology has just changed. When we wrote the book, Zoom was not a thing. Skype for Business was Microsoft's enterprise tool. Now it's Microsoft Teams.”

Additionally, Twirl highlights the increased familiarity with remote work among senior leaders post-pandemic, leading to a more profound understanding of its potentials and pitfalls. The concept of hybrid work has evolved from a mere compromise to a strategic balance of synchronous and asynchronous work, tailored to individual and organizational needs.

Wayne Twirl [18:53]: “Hybrid work in its most effective form... includes the concept of time, what work gets done where and when.”

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Applying Leadership Models to Amazon’s RTO Policy

Responding to Amazon’s controversial RTO announcement, Twirl offers critical insights into how his leadership models could assist the tech giant in navigating this transition. He emphasizes that effective leadership is crucial in mitigating high turnover rates and fostering a positive work environment.

Wayne Twirl [21:24]: “We know that people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses.”

Twirl suggests that Amazon’s high turnover rate—a staggering 150% annually—is symptomatic of underlying leadership issues. By enhancing leadership training, particularly in remote and hybrid contexts, Amazon can potentially reduce turnover and improve employee satisfaction.

He also critiques the conventional approach to hybrid work, advocating for a more intentional strategy that respects individual work preferences and promotes flexibility without compromising organizational goals.

Wayne Twirl [18:53]: “If your job is to check things off your task list, going into the office may not be the best way to get those tasks completed.”

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Regional Perspectives on Remote Work

Twirl contrasts the contentious nature of remote work in the United States with its reception in Asia, particularly in densely populated cities like Hong Kong. He explains that in regions where living spaces are smaller, and commuting is more arduous, remote work is often the more practical and preferred option.

Wayne Twirl [27:45]: “The remote work conversation in the US is very different than it is in Western Europe and Asia... In Hong Kong, it's the preferred place to get work done.”

This regional disparity highlights the need for leadership strategies to be adaptable to cultural and logistical contexts, ensuring that policies are equitable and effective across diverse work environments.

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Future of Work and Leadership Adaptation

As organizations continue to grapple with defining the "new normal," Twirl anticipates ongoing experimentation and adjustment in work models. He points out that many traditional industries, such as high finance, are now re-evaluating long-standing mentorship and networking practices that were previously reliant on in-person interactions.

Wayne Twirl [32:30]: “If we think about high finance, for 200 years, the business model has been one of mentorship. It has been one of long hours in close proximity.”

Twirl envisions a future where organizations like Amazon may see substantial turnover as they shift towards or away from remote work models, depending on how well they can implement effective long distance leadership practices.

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Conclusion and Final Insights

The episode underscores the critical importance of intentional leadership in the evolving landscape of remote and hybrid work. Wayne Twirl advocates for leaders to remain adaptable, maintain clear and consistent communication, and foster an inclusive environment that values all team members equally, irrespective of their physical location.

By embracing these principles, leaders can not only navigate the complexities of long distance management but also drive their organizations towards greater resilience and success in an increasingly digital world.

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Notable Quotes

• Wayne Twirl [03:10]: “The number one factor in how you're perceived as an executive, as an employee, is your ability to communicate.”
• Wayne Twirl [05:43]: “Long distance leadership is taking what we know makes good leaders and always has and applying it when you are not always or sometimes ever in the same physical space as the people that you lead.”
• Wayne Twirl [07:43]: “If you think about the roles of a leader, a manager, an entrepreneur, you need to hire, you need to train, you need to delegate, you need to coach. Yep, all those things need to happen. But how we do it becomes different when we're mitigated and mediated by technology.”
• Wayne Twirl [13:37]: “The technology has just changed. When we wrote the book, Zoom was not a thing. Skype for Business was Microsoft's enterprise tool. Now it's Microsoft Teams.”
• Wayne Twirl [18:53]: “If your job is to check things off your task list, going into the office may not be the best way to get those tasks completed.”
• Wayne Twirl [21:24]: “We know that people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses.”
• Wayne Twirl [27:45]: “The remote work conversation in the US is very different than it is in Western Europe and Asia... In Hong Kong, it's the preferred place to get work done.”
• Wayne Twirl [32:30]: “If we think about high finance, for 200 years, the business model has been one of mentorship. It has been one of long hours in close proximity.”

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This episode of Chief Change Officer offers invaluable insights for leaders navigating the challenges of remote and hybrid work environments. Wayne Twirl’s expertise provides listeners with actionable strategies to enhance their leadership effectiveness, ensuring that teams remain engaged, productive, and cohesive regardless of physical distances.

Transcript

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[Vince Chen]

Hi everyone. Welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer, I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change, progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today, I'm sitting down with Wayne Twirl to dive into a crucial long distance leadership in an era where communication technology is rapidly evolving for both workers and leaders. Yes, you heard that right. Long distance leadership, not long distance relationships. But just like with any relationship, maintaining, nurturing and fixing long distance leadership is far from straightforward. This conversation couldn't be more timely. When we recorded this episode, Amazon's CEO had just announced their RTO return to office policy for 2025 and so far the media narrative surrounding it hasn't been exactly positive. So how can Wayne and his team provide solutions as remote and hybrid work models continue to change shape? Let's find out.

[Wayne Twirl]

Thank you for having me. This is really exciting.

[Vince Chen]

Vince, Wayne, let's start with a bit of your background. How does your past experiences make you the perfect sister it to write several books about long distance leadership and communication for leaders?

[Wayne Twirl]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to intentionally stop myself from going down rabbit holes because it has been a long winding trip. But the short answer is that I'm originally from Canada while I was in school studying journalism as a stage performer and eventually, like most stage performers, had to get a real job in the real world. And I started in the presentation skills arena because I learned at the age of 8 how powerful it was to be able to communicate that the number one factor in how you're perceived as an executive, as an employee, is your ability to communicate. I was always fascinated by that. And that's where I started from. And I started in traditional stand at the front of the room presentation skills, but about 20 years ago realized that electronic communication at the time WebEx was the main tool was going to change how we work. And so while I was teaching and studying leadership and other things, the electronic communication really became my focus. So I've been studying that for over 20 years. And then about 10 years ago, Kevin Eikenberry and I merged. He bought My company, we merged his expertise with traditional, what we think of as leadership skills and my expertise in the remote and electronic world. We now have three books later established ourselves really as leaders in the field. If that doesn't sound too arrogant, I was just going to say the big thing for me is that I learned so early that how you communicate is how you're perceived. And so many people are subject matter experts. They're incredible, incredibly smart, but they struggle taking what's in their head and putting it in the minds of their customers, their employees, and other people. As consultants, you know your business. My job is to help you communicate that to the world.

[Vince Chen]

What exactly does long distance leadership mean? How would you define it?

[Wayne Twirl]

Yeah, we get awfully hung up on, are my people remote? Are they in the office? Long distance leadership is taking what we know makes good leaders and always has and applying it when you are not always or sometimes ever in the same physical space as the people that you lead. And it's funny because there has always been some version of long distance leadership. Genghis Khan ruled half the world and never held a webex meeting. Julius Caesar did great out in the field. It's when he went back to the office that things went a little bit pear shaped. So we've always had to find ways to do this. And as technology has changed over the years, it's becoming both more common and, and easier, technically easier to do. But technology changes how we as humans communicate. And so if we aren't aware of those dynamics, it's very easy to get stressed or even lost in the weeds and not do the things that we know leaders need to do. The role of long distance leaders leader. It's not so much what you do, because if you think about the roles of a leader, a manager, an entrepreneur, you need to hire, you need to train, you need to delegate, you need to coach. Yep, all those things need to happen. But how we do it becomes different when we're mitigated and mediated by technology. So our job is to help leaders understand the nuances and adjust their behavior based on the circumstances in which they find themselves.

[Vince Chen]

How have these changes helped or disrupted the way we lead and manage teams? In other words, how have you seen long distance leadership evolve? What changes have you noticed in terms of how it works, how fast it's changing, and the direction it's heading?

[Wayne Twirl]

Our first rule in our book is think leadership first, location second. We believe if you think of what you need to do as a leader, you'll find a way to make it work. If you are not confident in yourself as a leader. If you do not exhibit great leadership behaviors, remote is going to make it harder. Because if I struggle to give people feedback on a regular basis, if I'm in the office with them, I'm going to physically see them and my brain goes, aha, that's Vince. I should talk to him about X. If we're working remotely and I don't see see you, I may not give you the feedback that you need in a timely manner that's going to impact the quality of your work, it's going to impact the quality of our relationship, and ultimately it's going to impact the quality of the team. So we have to be more mindful of including all the members of the team, no matter where they are, and we don't get the benefit of physical proximity. So I still need to coach you, I still need to include you and delegate you tasks and check on your work and all those things still need to happen. But I need to be more mindful and intentional about making that happen. Or we had a conversation a week ago and our next team meeting is two weeks from now and I may not communicate with you, you during all that time. A lot can happen if I have not developed a relationship with you where you're comfortable coming to me. If you have a question, I'm going to assume that everything is fine because you didn't say anything. As I said, what we have to do, the individual tasks that we have to do as leaders are the same as they've always been. But there's this piece of information intentionality and making sure that we have the information flow that we need, but also the relationship that we need. Trust, proactivity, avoiding micromanagement. Those kinds of things are different in degree in a long distance work relationship. And as we begin to settle into what we're calling hybrid work, which usually isn't hybrid work, but that's a different discussion where you've got some people in the office and some people not and some are. In a couple of days we develop another layer of challenges which are things like proximity bias, where the people in the office get our attention. The people in the office are given perhaps more opportunities and considered more valuable than the people who are not. And that can impact the team negatively as well. One thing that we found before COVID was the rules for how do you get promoted and how do you get your performance evaluation. All those things favored the people who were in the office most often intentionally or unintentionally. And in a little bit I think we're going to talk about some instances where companies make very specific decisions about these things. If you're consciously deciding that the people in the office get the advantage, that's fine. That's a legitimate business decision. The problem is when it's not a conscious decision, when you think you're being equitable to all your employees, no matter where they are. And yet the people in the office feel very differently than the people who are working remotely. So there's a level of intentionality and mindfulness to remote work that good leaders are probably doing very well anyway, and poor leaders are the ones where the gap becomes wider and wider between the good leaders and the poor. Everybody listening to this has worked for people who are okay, or maybe they're not okay. But we also immediately have those leaders in our lives that we go, that's the guy, right? That's the person that we want to follow. And when I say that guy, that could be gender neutral, right? Of course. But that's the person I want to follow. Or that's the kind of leader I want to be. The first edition of the book came out in 2018. What we were really trying to do was help leaders realize that as stressful and different and unusual as this can feel, you can apply all the things that make you a remarkable leader in this new environment. We want to help you be the leader that people point to as exceptional, interesting, and excellent.

[Vince Chen]

You've released a second edition of this book. Why now? What's changed since the first edition came out in 2018?

[Wayne Twirl]

That's a great question. Because the first edition, of course, came out pre Covid. It came out in 2018, and it was very well received. It sold very well. We're in seven languages, including Cantonese and Mandarin and Korean and Polish and Lord knows what all else. But the world has changed a little bit. I think there are two, maybe two and a half primary things in terms of the book itself. It's about 25% new or updated material. And it falls into two areas. The first, as you say, is the technology. Technology has just changed. When we wrote the book, Zoom was not a thing. Skype for Business was Microsoft's enterprise tool. Now it's Microsoft Teams. So while we are not a technology book, and we don't want to get hung up on the technology, the way that we work is different now than it was six years ago. So the technology is certainly a piece of it. The second piece is that now that we've gone through this change, more people in North America, for example, 50% of the workforce worked from home at least part time, some of the time during COVID which means that people have a lot more experience now, including senior leaders. Pre Covid, many senior leaders had never worked anywhere other than the office before. So they had no frame of reference to say, oh, people can be successful, they can be productive, and so a lot more people have experience. So as we started to say, are we going to return to the office? Are we not going to return to the office? We're in this state of flux. As I said, we're in the middle of this seismic change that we're all trying to figure out. And the answer for many people has been we're going to get people to come back to the office. Some of the time the word that they use is hybrid. It's not really hybrid. What most organizations have done is not so much a strategy as it is a hostage negotiation. The company says, how much can we make them come back to the office before they quit? And there's too much turnover and too much chaos and the employees are saying, how much can we resist going back to the office before we get fired? And I guess we've settled on three days a week and there you are, that's a compromise. It might be working for you, but. But it's not really a strategy. Hybrid work in its most effective form, and we're seeing this in organizations, is more than just what work gets done where. It includes the concept of time, what work gets done where and when. For example, do you really have a hybrid strategy? If I'm working from home, but I have to log on at the same time as all of my peers in the office get there and log off at the same time? Does it matter if I'm doing deep thought, analytical work that I do that between the hours of 9 and 5, New York time, we are a hybrid organization. At the Kevin eikenberry group, I'm 3 hours time difference from Kevin in Indiana. There are a number of hours a day that we overlap that were synchronous, but he doesn't manage my time. If I want to start very early in the morning and knock off in the afternoon, as long as my work gets done, as long as the clients are getting serviced, as long as my teammates can reach me in a effective manner, that works for us. And that's where what we call hybrid work really becomes something different, the balance of synchronous and asynchronous work. What we're hearing from our clients, for example, is we want people to come in three days a week so that they have time to collaborate and get to know each other and brainstorm. That sounds great in theory. What we're hearing though is people are complaining when they go into the office. Oh, I can't get any work done because people are talking to me and there's noise in the office and people are stopping by my desk constantly and there's cake in the break room because it's Alice's birthday and I have to go deal with that. And then when I work from home, I can't really get any work done because I'm on zoom calls from morning till night.

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[Wayne Twirl]

That's the result of not being intentional about what work gets done where when you you're right. If your job is to check things off your task list, going into the office may not be the best way to get those tasks completed. It doesn't mean there isn't important work that has to happen there. So how about you decide? All the meetings that I have, or as many as possible are going to take place when we're all together, right? As a leader, I'm going to do my coaching sessions when people are in the office and we can be face to face. And on the days when they're not in the office, I'm not going to have them on meetings from morning till night because that's when they're going to do that. Task completion, getting stuff done, deep, focused thought that is best done uninterrupted. And if they want to do that at 8 o'clock at night when the kids go to bed because they can think better, I don't care as long as that report is in on time, it's up to the quality and standard that we expect and you are available to your teammates and adding to the value of the team. Now that's a hybrid solution as opposed to merely a compromise.

[Vince Chen]

This interview feels super tiny, especially with Amazon CEO announcing that starting in 2025, corporate staff will return to a five day work week. There's been a lot of buzz around us so far the reaction has been mostly negative. Some people say it's the end of remote work. Others say they will quit over it. What's your personal take on this? Or let's imagine if Amazon invited you to help with this transition, how would you apply your leadership models to their situation. Maybe you can give us a quick overview of your models and how they could fit into Amazon's latest development.

[Wayne Twirl]

Okay, so the first thing is to say we can help them because even though I'm here talking about long distance leadership, the Kevin Eikenberry group as a whole focuses on leadership. And so there's all of Kevin's remarkable leadership, which is in the DNA of our remote content. And our remote content is totally consistent with remarkable leadership. So we can address anything. The second thing is that we often get lumped in with the remote work zealots, the people, death to the office and the four day work week and all of that. And while we certainly embrace that as an option, we believe that every organization is different and needs to do what it does. Amazon intentionally has a very 20th century factory model. The nature of what they do, it's 90% warehouses and deliveries. Those are in person, pick it up, stock the shelves in person functions. They also, by the way, have 150% turnover every year. They churn and burn people and have throughout their entire history. That is their business model. And so if they decide this is what we're going to do, it's easy to say we're coming back to the office and so we have no remote employees. But that's not true. If I am a regional manager, I might have employees in 12 different warehouses. We are not physically together. We might be working the same hours, but I can't see what you're doing in each of those locations. So it's really important that you get back to that. You don't get hung up on the fact that we're not all in the same place. If we are in the same place, great. We need to think like leaders, right? We need to coach and present the vision and give feedback and all of that stuff. And if I have people who are in different locations, I need to exhibit those exact same behaviors, adjusting for the difference, the distance. And so we would go back to, why do you have 150% turnover every year? We know that people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses. We know that when leaders exhibit good coaching, good feedback, fairness, all the things that good leaders do, those teams tend to have less turnover and less chaos. So let's improve the leadership mindset of everybody from the new supervisor. The skills of moving from a employee to a leader need to be trained and coached and carefully defined. And then as you become a leader of more and more people, there's likely to become a distance component. It might be physical distance it might be that Amazon is a 24 hour operation. If I am the warehouse manager, I'm going to have leaders and teams that are working when I'm home in bed. How am I going to establish the expectations, establish the standards, coach and develop people so that the operation is running when I'm not there? We're on a 24 hour clock. Okay. We have to make sure we're communicating between the different shifts. How are we doing that? I have 12 warehouses that I'm responsible for. Okay. How are you going to communicate? Set the expectations, manage the performance with the people in those different locations. And once we get back to what is leadership, what is good leadership, what do good leaders do? The specific circumstances you can adjust for.

[Vince Chen]

Here's my personal experience. Except for the first few years of my corporate life, most of my career has involved a good degree of remote or hybrid work. I've worked with colleagues and supervisors scattered across different locations. So I got used to working with people across time zones, staying up late or waking up early to make it work. I've also experienced the evolution of technology from working without a BlackBerry, then with a BlackBerry, and later moving on to other devices. Now as an entrepreneur, to work with people from all over. I've noticed that in the US remote work has become a very contentious issue, whereas here in Asia or in Hong Kong is a different story. Hong Kong is a dense, highly populated city and the concept of remote work doesn't carry the same weight. Many people just head back to the office. As the living spaces here are typically smaller than in the US for those with families or children, the office actually becomes the preferred place to get work done.

[Wayne Twirl]

Again, what are your individual circumstances? The remote work conversation in the US is very different than it is in Western Europe and Asia, because you're right, people in the US say, I have a spare room and that's where I do my office. If I live in Tokyo, what's a spare room? And it gets back to Amazon, even in Amazon. I talked to somebody in Seattle yesterday and they went, oh, great. If Amazon really does this, I don't work for Amazon. But They've just added 15 minutes to my commute because the traffic around the Amazon headquarters is already a nightmare. It's going to become so much worse. So the people that say I have to drive to work and now it's an extra half hour out of my life may decide to work from home more often. There are ripple effects, and this goes back to what we were talking about that nobody really knows what the new normal is going to be because we're going through these changes. The second thing that is really important to what you said is I've always worked remotely because of my circumstances, and that's really critical. We've always been able to work, make it work. I believe William Burroughs said, the future is here. It's just not widely distributed. And what we found during COVID was the people like you, like me, who had always been working remotely due to our circumstances. What's the big deal? But people who had never worked in that environment got bussed into the deep end of the pool and had to figure it out. We're going through this period where the people who learned it during COVID got very surprised. A lot of senior leaders got very, very fooled. They said, oh, there will be no employee engagement. People won't get their work done. In the first six months of the pandemic, when more people went home, employee engagement actually went up. Productivity did not drop off nearly as much as people expected it to. So our assumptions pre 2020are now being examined and tested and applied in different ways. And so it's going to be very interesting the next few years while we figure out what work looks like. Jamie Dimon made a very famous speech. He said, starting immediately, we want everybody back in the office. If you choose to work remotely, we will continue to pay you as long as you do your job. But you have taken yourself off the career track. We are no longer thinking of you as the same kind of valuable employee as the person who comes to the office every day. There was massive outrage. And all the remote work people lost their minds. And I found myself in the strange position of cutting him a little slack. Because if we think about high finance, for 200 years, the business model has been one of mentorship. It has been one of long hours in close proximity. That's how you learn the business. That's how you network. That's how you do those things. And so the people in the leadership positions in high finance only know one way to do this. Now, there are some companies that are experimenting and asking, okay, this is how it's been done for 200 years. Is it the only way to do it? Great. Come here. We're trying this new thing, which is part of seeing how all of this shakes out with Amazon. A lot of people are going to quit. Amazon is planning next year a 15% reduction in their middle management. They are increasing by 15%, the number of direct reports each manager has. The fact that people are going to quit, I suspect, and I don't know this, but I'm guessing is as much a feature as it is a bug, right? They're going to lose a certain number of people, but they were going to lose a certain number of people anyway. So let people select whether they're the ones that lead.

[Vince Chen]

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show. Leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm this Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.

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