Chief Change Officer Podcast Episode #380: "Employment Is Dead—Now Let’s Rebuild It — Part One" with Josh Drean

Release Date: May 22, 2025
Host: Vince Chan
Guest: Josh Drean, Harvard MBA, Startup Founder, Co-Author of "Employment Is Dead"

Introduction: Challenging Traditional Employment Models

In the #380 episode of Chief Change Officer, host Vince Chan engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Josh Drean, a Harvard MBA, startup founder, and co-author of the provocative book "Employment Is Dead." The episode sets the stage for a three-part series that delves into the inadequacies of traditional employment models, the transformative impact of emerging technologies like Web3 and AI on the workforce, and actionable strategies companies must adopt to thrive in this evolving landscape.

Vince Chan (00:13): "Chief Change Officer isn’t just another podcast... it's a space for transformation gurus, bold hearts, black sheep, and unsung visionaries."

Josh Drean’s Journey: From Employee Engagement to Reimagining Work

Josh Drean opens up about his passion for employee engagement and experience, which stems from his early career experiences and academic background.

Josh Drean (02:27): "My passion is rooted in employee engagement and employee experience. Making sure that we are helping employees have the best experience possible so that they can do their best work possible."

Josh recounts his time at the Harvard Innovation Labs, where he co-founded a startup focused on real-time sentiment analysis to enhance employee engagement. He critiques traditional annual surveys, highlighting their inefficacy and the mistrust they foster among employees.

Josh Drean (04:15): "A lot of it seemed performative and employees weren't very trusting of an organization so they weren't being honest on these surveys."

The Flaws in Traditional Employee Surveys and Engagement Practices

Josh critiques the conventional methods companies use to gauge employee satisfaction, emphasizing their sporadic nature and lack of depth.

Josh Drean (05:10): "The idea is let's ask employees how they're feeling. It's a great concept, but the way that we were doing it was just completely flawed in my mind."

He discovered that many organizations were not genuinely interested in employee feedback but used surveys as a facade for increasing productivity or justifying layoffs.

Josh Drean (06:00): "Most companies don't actually want to know how employees are feeling... they were giving lip service to it or they really just wanted to know for their own benefit so that they could push the employees harder or know who to fire."

This realization led Josh to conclude that the issue isn't solely a people or leadership problem but a systemic one driven by short-term shareholder value.

Josh Drean (07:20): "The system is designed for short term shareholder value which often neglects employees needs."

The Short-Term Mindset: A Barrier to Employee-Centric Practices

Vince Chan resonates with Josh’s observations, discussing the inherent tension between doing good for employees and maintaining financial viability.

Vince Chan (06:29): "Even with the best intentions, a competent, capable and purpose driven CEO... still has to balance doing good with making money."

He highlights the hypocrisy in corporate messaging, where organizations proclaim that "people are our greatest asset" yet treat employees as expenses in financial statements.

Vince Chan (08:00): "People are our greatest asset. But on the financial statements, people are not listed as assets. They are categorized as an expense item."

This disconnect underscores the systemic challenges that prevent genuine employee-centric transformations within organizations.

From Psychology to Web3: Bridging Human Experience and Technological Innovation

Josh narrates his transition from studying psychology to embracing business and, ultimately, Web3 technologies. This journey underscores his commitment to enhancing employee experiences through innovative solutions.

Josh Drean (13:39): "Web3 presents this blue ocean of opportunity where we can continue to live those psychological principles."

He draws parallels between his son's experience with online communities in games like Roblox and Minecraft and the potential of Web3 to foster meaningful digital interactions within the workforce.

Josh Drean (14:10): "My son... created a friend group and a community with people all over the world that he's never actually met in person."

Redefining Employee Experience with Emerging Technologies

The conversation shifts to how Web3 and other emerging technologies can serve as bridges to redefine the employee experience, making it more flexible, autonomous, and aligned with modern work-life dynamics.

Josh Drean (16:26): "Web3, Metaverse, and all these emerging technologies are essentially bridges, tools that help us redefine the employee experience... for our lives, our productivity, our outcome and our well being."

Josh introduces the "10 Operating Principles of Work3" from his book, emphasizing non-negotiable elements that modern employees seek, such as flexibility, autonomy, and ownership.

Josh Drean (17:05): "If you can offer any of these today, why should they work for you?"

He contrasts the outdated 9-to-5 structure with a more dynamic approach that accommodates various work rhythms and personal responsibilities.

Josh Drean (17:45): "It's tragic to see that we are returning to the office so forcefully in this 9 to 5 structure instead of moving forward in a way that makes sense for the employee and their work life balance."

The Power of Web3 in Building Trust and Collaboration

Josh delves deeper into how Web3 technologies, including decentralization and smart contracts, can revolutionize workplace dynamics by fostering transparent and trust-based relationships between employers and employees.

He envisions a future where digital avatars coexist with physical interactions, creating hybrid environments that offer the best of both worlds.

Josh Drean (15:50): "If you feel like the Metaverse is dead, you are greatly mistaken... due to the expectations of employees."

This vision aligns with his mission to marry workforce strategies with technological advancements, ensuring that employee experiences are both human-centric and technologically empowered.

The Story Behind "Employment Is Dead"

The episode touches upon the collaborative journey between Josh and his co-founder Deborah Perry Piccione, detailing how their partnership and shared vision led to the creation of their influential book.

Josh Drean (18:50): "If you are writing a book with Harvard Business Review Press... that's the opposite of what happened with Deborah."

While the transcript cuts off before Josh fully elaborates, it's clear that their shared experiences and complementary expertise culminated in a comprehensive exploration of why traditional employment models are unsustainable and how to rebuild them.

Looking Ahead: Rebuilding Work for the Future

As the episode concludes, Vince Chan teases the next installment, promising an in-depth look at the behind-the-scenes process of bringing "Employment Is Dead" to publication, including the pivotal moments that transformed a cold call into a major publishing deal.

Vince Chan (19:18): "In the next episode, George takes us behind the scenes of his book... Don't miss it."

Key Takeaways

1. Traditional Employment Models are Failing: The emphasis on short-term shareholder value and rigid structures like the 9-to-5 workday neglects modern employee needs for flexibility, autonomy, and meaningful engagement.

2. Employee Engagement Surveys are Ineffective: Annual, lengthy surveys often lack authenticity and fail to capture the true sentiments of employees, leading to mistrust and superficial engagement initiatives.

3. Emerging Technologies as Solutions: Web3, AI, and decentralized platforms offer innovative ways to enhance employee experiences, fostering greater trust, flexibility, and collaboration in the workplace.

4. Systemic Change Over Individual Efforts: Addressing employee engagement and satisfaction requires systemic transformations rather than isolated attempts by compassionate leaders or HR departments.

5. Future of Work is Hybrid and Digital: Combining digital avatars and virtual collaboration tools with in-person interactions can create more dynamic and inclusive work environments that cater to diverse employee lifestyles and preferences.

Notable Quotes

• Josh Drean (02:27): "My passion is rooted in employee engagement and employee experience. Making sure that we are helping employees have the best experience possible so that they can do their best work possible."

• Vince Chan (06:29): "Even with the best intentions... still has to balance doing good with making money."

• Josh Drean (16:26): "Web3... are essentially bridges, tools that help us redefine the employee experience... for our lives, our productivity, our outcome and our well being."

Join the Conversation

With over 130,000 followers, Chief Change Officer invites listeners to continue the dialogue on transformative workplace practices. Follow the podcast on LinkedIn, Apple, Spotify, and YouTube @chiefchangeofficer to stay updated on future episodes that challenge conventional thinking and inspire actionable change.

Note: This summary is based on the provided transcript excerpts up to 19:18 minutes into the episode. For a comprehensive understanding, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode.