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Chief Change Officer
#396 Colin Savage: Why Skill Stacking Is the New Lifelong Learning — Part Two
00:31:07
For Colin Savage, change isn’t something you manage—it’s a lifestyle. After 70 countries, 7 secondments, and too many reinventions to count, Colin Savage wants you to stop chasing lifelong learning—and start building skill stacks that actually stick.
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- [00:13]
A
Hi everyone. Welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer, I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist humility for change. Progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. This is a three part series with Colin Selvich. In part one, the first episode, we'll dive into Colin's fascinating journey as a self proclaimed change addict turned change guru. Collins career spans continents, cultures and industries. Seven countries, lived in seven more, seconded to and projects in over 70 nations. From organizational transformation to personal reinvention, he has mastered the art of embracing change and applying those lessons to life. In this conversation, Colin unpacks his unique perspective on change. How throwing himself into the unknown led to unparalleled growth and insight. From leaving Canada with nothing but a suitcase and ambition to navigating industries from telecommunications to financial services. Colin shares how the constant evolution around him became his greatest teacher. In the next episodes, we'll explore the learning required for transformation, why Colin believes lifelong learning is outdated and skills decking is the future. And finally, in part three, we'll tackle AI human intelligence and why every one of us needs a personal AI strategy. Buckle up. This one is a ride. Like you said, one of the threats running through your experience is change and strategy. You've worked with so many firms and organizations, guiding them through their transformations, so you must have seen countless business cases unfold. What have you learned from these consulting projects and organizational change initiatives that could apply to individual situations? Are there lessons for these business cases that also resonate on a personal level, especially when we face dilemmas or crossroads in our own lives?
- [03:34]
B
One example is going to be a bit of a surprise to people because they will have read potentially how traditional this country is. And this is Japan. So I lived in Japan, as I mentioned, for quite a long time. I'm with a Japanese life insurance company. We're in Brazil. We are seeing something that's a bit unique in Japan. One of the largest minorities, Brazilians. And they are people who travel to Japan as youth. They have access to visas and other things and they start their working life in Japan. So they're actually indoctrinated. They learn working culture from being in Japanese companies, a lot of them. Otherwise they learn things like hey, life insurance is important, you need to have it. The discussion one, how are we going to go build this business by here? And what came about was I learned that change, individual, team and otherwise comes from doing a lot of promotion. So Japan is a lot about individual conversations to get support or get direction. Big organizations are great at providing that direction, but often indirect. You have to be acute direction. So hey, why don't we consider this, why don't we do that? But also acute. It measured and it's plan the change. You can't just come up with an idea and throw it at people and get them to say yes or no. You've got to research your idea. This is the market side. These are the people, what they would buy. This is how it would benefit them if they stayed where they are or then when they move back, this is how we could think, dovetail or a pipeline into getting new people in a new market we might make. So it took a lot of time, but I was very surprised and very proud that we actually managed to get this kind of religion. We I got support from lovely people within the organization. They provided their time to me. We moved ahead. It took two years. But the change did happen. And it was actually a real shining example of just because you think a culture and a group of people are traditional in their practices doesn't mean they're averse to change. You just need to be on that change addict thing we were talking about. Not willy nilly, not, hey, let's just do it for the sake of doing it. Be measured, be strategic, be researched in what you want to change and then find the kind and support avoidance. And if you find enough of them, you'll get groundswell and you'll be able to do it. If you don't, maybe your idea really isn't that great. Maybe you need to go back to the drawing. So learn to take the interest and the novelty and the energy that comes from a potential change and have it fuel you to do the really important steps. The fundamental steps to maybe make that change happen in the flip side would be actually back here in Canada, I work for a quite traditional marketing company. Probably if I tell you who it is, people will know right away. They brought me in as a change person. That's how I was recruited. Please come here. We know our industry is on the decline. We're not really entirely sure where to go with it. We've seen what you did in other places. We're eager to change. We want to transform. They use all, all the right words. They were very receptive to the ideas before I moved in house. I got in there and I asked, do you want me to be disruptive? Would you like me to push new initiatives? Absolutely. This is what we want. And within a month of me doing that we don't really like or that was a little too much the reality is they were a different kind of ad. They were hooked on a legacy of very high revenue and high profit margin. And they weren't willing. They really weren't willing. And they hadn't done the time to figure out do we want to change? Are we willing to forego some of that to potentially make it the morale? Or maybe not. And even though they had all of the support, allegedly support from people above and their ownership and others, they were incredibly reluctant to do it. So I was sitting in a role where change was in my title, but I couldn't do any. And I had tried, I had built up goodwill, I'd got some champion. I was doing everything that change management told you to do. Pushing the needle here, scaling you here. And for the the time period that I was there, they were wholly unwilling to take on. And at a certain point I had to. You know what? It isn't going to work for me. I'm pushing the rock uphill as whatever the Greek myth did, and I'm not getting anywhere. And I'm being told two different stories. So we dig into it, we find a really like an external push from other people so we don't want to do it. And it ended up being a failure for myself. And it's something that I've taken on and I accept I learned a lot of really good lessons from it and frankly had some work with some wonderful people that were driven to do it. But when the entire organization has been dictated change and not really trusting of the person who's supposed to pilot it, then it's not going to happen. But in this instance, it's a little bit about. It's maybe less about the change addict thing, but learning about that change guru, if that's a good word or change guy, which is all right, maybe we need to take a step back, figure out what is your definition of change. Is it collectively the same? Do we all think this is endured idea? Okay, maybe we need to tailoring a little more and then move on from there. And that's hopefully where I am now and how I actually go about it. A little bit more, there's a little bit less. Less. Put on the gas more. Let's put the car in park for a second and let's have a talk. We'll drive a block down the road and then we're going to have another talk and that way we can get to the kind of again change that we're all trying to achieve and back to that definition of success. It's not just keep that directed by the outside or financial reasons, only the wholesome way that we're going to evolve and change for the better.
- [10:23]
A
I can totally relate to your Canadian example. I've had a similar experience myself. We can chat more about it offline. But eventually it led to me leaving that company. If I think about it in a more personal context, like within a family, change isn't just about one person. It's a group decision that can lead to challenges, too. For example, when I used to help younger professionals plan their MBA career paths, many of them would ask me, vince, should I apply to this school or that school? Should I study in this city or another city? Often these decisions weren't just about them. They were married, so the decision had to include the spouse. My answer to them was, this isn't just about you. What does your husband or wife think? Have you discussed whether it will mean long distance for two years? Will they move with you? If they do, will they be able to work? If not, what happens then? That's where the tension often starts. One partner wants to change, but the other doesn't, or they see the change differently. It creates conflict. And that's not unlike what happens in a business setting. One stakeholder might push for a big transformation while others hesitate or resist because the interpretation of change is different. So, yes, and think that dynamic applies across contexts, personal or professional.
- [12:23]
B
My neck is hurting from how much I'm nodding, figuring that because one of the reasons and one of the benefits that I've had is partner that I'm with. And she's actually been my sage. She's been my guide. The example that you wish, somebody from China wanting to give an mba, they're married and what are they going to do? I have basically dragged my partner and then our kids around the world. It was only until the sort of the last one or two times that I realized I need to sit down and I need to talk to her. I need to ask her, what do you think about it? Not just me moving for a job and to be the traditional one at the time, but not anymore, but the breadwinner, Perfumely. She has been the one that said, okay, so we're moving. All right, where are we moving? And then hit the ground running. And it was only later on, the last couple times that I've asked and I'm concerned about this, or I'm not sure how that's going to work or what are we going to do in this instance. And a lot of the things she's done is really ground why we were going to Go and move somewhere else. Why? We're going to make significant change in our lives to your example. I'm going to take it on and then everything's going to be hunky dory and we're all going to be happy and. But they weren't. They didn't know that they could voice it. And so now it's more like a collective. So now we're sitting around in Canada and we're thinking, so what's the next step? And my first step now is to go and talk to my two teenage sons and my wife and say hey guys, what do you think about this? And the reality is whatever our age is and wherever our life is taking us, they'll come up with questions and problems and scenarios or that that's a chance that's difficult and you've got to be a little bit more soul searching to figure out is this really right for me? Is this really what should happen and if it does, how is it going to go and how can I deal with it as and where it goes?
- [14:26]
A
Actually you have so many degrees that people often ask me Vince, are you collecting degrees? Are you sure? Laughing off and say no, I have three and I took each one very seriously. I don't even bother explaining why I pursued two MBAs anymore. But looking at you Colin, you have even more. Would you consider yourself a lifelong learner? I imagine you have some strong opinions on that term. A lot of people lean on lifelong learning when they are at the crossroads or want to make a change in their lives. They fall back on education, upskilling, retooling, whatever the buzzword of the day might be. But you've shared some interesting ideas with me about skill stacking and how that might offer a more impactful approach. So what do you think of lifelong learning as a concept? How do you see it evolving and where does skills stacking fit into the equation?
- [15:46]
B
Very recently I found myself and I think I this also leads a little bit to my love for novelty. I don't think a day goes by where I don't find the topic that I go hey you know what, I should really study this. And then I go and I start spend 10 minutes looking for universities where I could go and I can study and I don't know if I'm ever actually going to get over that practice. But to to talk to your specific comment about lifelong learning to skill Decker. So I am the, the product to academic people. So both of my parents were educators. They both were were educators at all different levels. They Were both academically inclined, and so was our family. And it was ingrained in us very young in two ways. And the first one was we always had a room in our house that was more of a study than den. It was a room where there was a lot of books, a lot of things on the wall, inspirational quotes, all that kind of. And my parents often argued about who got to use the big desk and do their writing and do their research and whatever else. And on one of the walls were all of their degrees. So that's it. From a very early age, I'd look up at a wall and I'd see lots of pieces of paper and very nice frame. Oh, one of those. Oh, that's my degree in education. So that was the first. And then the second one was. And this came more from. From a grandparent who actually didn't have a lot of education. He would relay to us as little kid, a lot, all the time. You know what? Like, somebody can. They can take away your house, they can take away your possessions, they can take away your money, they can take your family, they can take your health, they can do all that kind of stuff. The only thing that they cannot take away from you is your education. And so I still believe that. I still believe that's very true. And so anyway, from a long. From my early age with those kind of two things, it was, education is important, right? And you should constantly be learning. Right? And I don't. I didn't know at the time that you have to constantly be learning. Now it's related to keeping technology and technological advances and things like generative AI that I'm not studying all that. It was more like you just should keep learning all the time. My parents were very flexible, and it didn't really matter what. But it was important that it was with somebody who knows it. So there was an expert. And at the end, there was going to be some kind of. There was going to be a degree, a diploma, letters behind your name, whatever it is. So that's lifelong learning for me. There's continually learning from established institutions, programs, gathering up the diplomas and other things. And really the area doesn't matter. Lifelong learning. Learn whatever. But lifelong learning is. I think it's an outdated concept, and particularly because it just lacks focus. I may be an example of that. And that's where I studied English literature, I studied philosophy, I studied liberal art. Then I went to Japan, and then I did a master's degree in Modern Japanese literature. Okay, there's a little bit of a connection there. With literature, but due to different cultures, different languages. Then I go to the UK and I do a master's degree in social anthropology in Southeast Asia learning Burmese. I lived in lots of countries, so that's where the interesting cultures, the people come from. I can back up again. In hindsight I can connect them, but they didn't really have a focus on building expertise. They were disjointed variety of individuals, level or understanding and mastery of skills and discipline. And then I had to actually build pathway connect. And one of the pathways that helped me do that was doing an MBA at Durham in the uk. And so I connected social anthropology, I connected multigenerational stuff and I connected performance management from business to figure out a metric to understand how to support multi generational organization with different levels of performance management and guidance. But it wasn't purposeful. Fast forward a few years. Now we're into the pandemic. I'm living here in Canada, I'm sitting like most of us were in our own little home offices. I'm going through things like LinkedIn learning in other places and I'm noticing connectivity between hey, what if I learned how to be better at doing online presentation and whatnot from the short course? Then I can use the skills that I learned as a lecturer to maybe coach it in house in my company. So everybody will be better at sitting in virtual meetings. Hey, there's this new performance management tool online because we're all living remotely so we're worried about efficiency and all of those kind of things. How did I learn the technology behind it to maybe adapt it so we can add it to their practices? We have an out there still a little bit traditional paper baby building and building and building. So what happened was I'm not entirely sure that stacking is the right word. I think it's more like staircase and you've got overlapped half or a little bit more but then you branch off into new area but you're constantly building your thought. And now to round off my comment, now I'm learning for the last two years generative AI and the blurred large language model development, I've learned prop engineering, all those kind of things. But now that's actually connecting back in like almost reverse skill tracking with clear thought and clear writing. If you're not a good writer and you're not good at generating good writing, good step by step read to do something to build the proper prompt. It can't do what you want, it doesn't deliver what you would like and so you'll spend Extra time tweaking it and tailoring stuff, finally get to what you would like. But if you are good at writing, which comes from spending a lot of time in literature and you're good at research, which helps you figure out the steps to be able to get a result you'd like combining those and learning how and understanding how AI, generative AI particular and prompt engineering the skill that you need to do it, you're stacking those or you're staircasing all of those and you're going to be able to generate way better results in generative AI on things. And more importantly, even with people being able to guide them through a process, you're going to get the results faster which is better for everyone. Hopefully that's not a too roundabout way to get there. But I think yeah, now lifelong learning is an outdated concept and it's then it lacks focus for some people where skill stacking is a little more concentrated and it will help you really build that expertise. But again it's not going to be specific in an area but you can apply it across swath of area and it'll really help you advance your career and event whatever you want to do to be a standout kind of person.
- [23:21]
A
I kind of agree or disagree with what you just said. Lifelong learning is about the attitude. In my opinion, lifelong learning isn't just about acquiring new knowledge. It's about figuring out how you learn best. Some people thrive in classroom settings or in person workshops, while others prefer self paced digital formats. The methods vary, but the goal is the same, which is to keep growing, to keep learning. When it comes to skill stacking, I see it as something deeper. You mentioned is about purposefully merging diverse skills to solve complex challenges. And I think you're right. What's often missing isn't the means to learn. We have more access than ever to tools, training and knowledge. The gap lies in connecting the dots between those skills and leveraging them in meaningful ways to multiply the impact. In my view, we are living in a tool economy tool T o o L. Everything is about the tool. Whether it's ChatGPT today, Google yesterday, or whatever the next hot thing will be. The mindset is if you have a problem, there's a tool for that. Need a solution? Just grab a hammer, a screwdriver. What is the problem? Most of the time those tools are just solving surface level symptoms, not addressing the deeper underlying issues. It's like putting a band aid on a cut without treating the infection. Sure, the immediate problem looks solved, but the root cause persists and people end up repeating the same mistakes. I see this pattern a lot, especially among knowledge workers. They buy into the idea of lifelong learning, sign up for courses, pay for certifications, and stack up all these skills. But they don't actually go anywhere with them. Why? Because the key isn't just acquiring skills, it's in connecting them, applying them to real life scenarios, case by case, and solving problems with them in an integrated manner. So the missing piece is less about technical skills and more about human skills. What most people call soft skills, problem solving, critical thinking, emotional intelligence, communication. These are the connective tissue that make skill stacking impactful. Without them, you're just collecting tools in a toolbox you don't know how to use effectively. That's where I think the future of lifelong learning needs to focus. Not just teaching new skills, but on helping people build the connections between them and apply them in meaningful, impactful ways. It's not about the tools themselves, it's about what you build with them.
- [27:14]
B
I agree. Yeah, you, you have brought the other hand that I'm not going to say that I forgot, but what I would add to what you're saying and equate the court in the skill stacking, I differentiate between calling the person and calling the professional all the time. So skill stacking, those are skills stacked for my calling the person. That's where lifelong learning for me exists and always grows. And so I'm very clear on what's the differentiator. Because what you can do is if you're people like us or those listening that are like us, if you've got an old crazy horizon of areas that you're interested in and you've read about, studied, done, whatever to build up knowledge, it can be impossible to connect all the dots and make them all skipped. I love reading modern African history. I have three shelves of books in my house that are all about the Democratic Republican Congress. I am never going to use that. At least not now. Oh, I got to go get a PhD in writing or I need to go in this thing that I've been invested in for a long time and I enjoy reading about. And it is a form of learning, doesn't need to be something that I'm going to incorporate into my work life. And I purposely keep it separate. And that's the same thing of the musical instruments that happen to be gathering dust unfortunately in the back of my room. Those are also skills that I'm learning throughout my life just for my own enjoyment. And I'm totally with you on the law of the instrument. Right. If everything, if you've got a hammer and you're good at it, then everything look like Neil I sit on a number of groups where we support startups and tech founders and entrepreneurs and the drive to just leap to the solution because I think I can sell a widget to somebody rather than understanding to your point like is this actually a problem or is this a system or something else? It just drives me nuts. And so we're just going to end up with now the toolkit is going to have 7,000 tools, 6,800 of which I don't know how to use and 50 that are actually useful for me to figure out any kind of a dilemma that I'm I think, yeah, I think you've done a good job of reminding me that maybe the lifelong learning thing should be just for life and that guilt, that should be where we focus on potentially getting the right kind of multi skill person who to your point, doesn't just look down and build a tool but is able to interact with others, is able to be empathetic, show emotional intelligence, all those kind of things that I think maybe sometimes get sharp to the side over the. Let's build the technical experience and skill ourselves up with. Now I know not just C, but I also know all of these other JavaScript and other kind of software so I can build my own AI model. Let's go. Right.
- [30:38]
A
Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.