Vince Chen (8:52)

Yeah, I agree with you on this totally.

Richard Carson (8:56)

A lot of times what happens is whether it's a elected board or a board of directors for a company, they will tell you what the problem is. They'll say, here's a problem we want you to fix. And my first reaction is maybe I'm not going to start from a position of this is the problem, I'm going to fix it. I'm going to start from the position of I'm going to talk to people internally and externally and ask them what they think. In other words, like, I will start with the front counter line staff who, you know, do the customer service and I'll start with at that level and say what do you think works around here and what do you think doesn't? And then can then take it to outside stakeholders, to managers in Filigetti 360° look at what people are thinking about what works and what doesn't. And then I'll go back to the people who hired me and basically say, look, this is what I found out. Now you can deal with it or not, you want to deal with it, then I will give you some recommendations. By the way, when I talk about recommendations, I use internal staff to develop answers and that's because I want buy in from them. I'll give an example of something I was thinking about the other day has to do with Trump and Musk and their Dodge or Department of Government efficiency. This was done before by President Clinton and Al Gore, but the way they did it was they went in and they basically engaged the staff to help find solutions and it was by all accounts very successful. Whereas Trump and Musk are basically coming in and threatening people their jobs. And they're going to have a very hard time getting those people to be part of the solution. There's going to be a great deal of resistance to them from day one. Not because they deserve it, but because of just people are afraid, change scares people. And the first thing you have to do, at least what I, I do, is sit down with folks and say, look, if you do this, if you work on this, your life, your career, your work environment will be better, not worse.

Vince Chen (11:49)

Yeah, of course everyone has their own idea of what getting better means and in the office environment is not Just about change. There's politics, power dynamics and other things that aren't even part of the equation. When we talk about improving or evolving, some people resist change not because they don't understand it, but because change threatens the status quo. And for them, that's uncomfortable.

Richard Carson (12:31)

The mantra usually to begin with is, but we've always done it this way. Why change it? We've done it this way for a decade.

Vince Chen (12:43)

Now. You've written a book called the Book of Change. You also hold a doctoral degree in organizational change, so I imagine you've studied a wide range of change models. Obviously we don't have time to go through all of them here. You probably need a full course just to do that. But I'd love to get your quick tick from your perspective and your studies. How have these models evolved over time? Has the way we think about change stayed more or less the same over the years, or has it shifted drastically? Feel free to connect this with what you mentioned earlier about employees being part of the solution or what happens when there is resistance even in personal change. Has the approach to change itself changed?

Richard Carson (13:55)

Let's start with a quick note about centuries. I won't go back a lot on this, but in 500 BC a Greek philosopher said, nothing endures but change. And that's what change is, a constant. It's hard for people to get their head around that, especially when you go in and try to work with them because like I said, their attitude is, you've always done it this way. I think the recent history of change management starts in 1947 with Kurt Lewin, who created the first change management model. He did a lot of other things. He came up with force field analysis, action research, but change management, he came up with a three phase model which was freeze, moderate and then refreeze. Almost every model, including mine, almost every model since 1947 has followed that. Those basic three phases, one way or another. Sometimes it's five, sometimes it's seven. But they all basically say you go in and shake it up, you reform it, then you maintain it. And you may do that several times. But so since 1947, there's. Ross came up with the kind of stages of grief model, which was actually a change management model. Edward Deming came up with a more statistically based model, mainly for the Japanese. He couldn't sell it to the American auto industry here until Japanese picked it up and made a success out of it. And then all of a sudden the American automakers were interested in the Deming method. Carter later came along with one Crosslyer to have the ad car. They're basically all the same, the two. So I came up with, I looked at Navy, over 100 models. I came up with 22 from about, from Kurt Lewin to about 2016. I really haven't found much since then. What I really looked at was trying to take it the next step. So what I've done, instead of, even though it was, it's very generalized, three to five steps, I came up with the same three phases, a little bit different name, but they're basically the same. Then I took those into 10 steps and then I took those into 39 separate actions. Each with each action has a lot of detail about exactly what you can do to accomplish that particular action. So I took my own experience as a manager of organizations, as a consultant working with organizations, and as an academic who learned about these different models and applied all of that to this particular model that we're talking about.

Vince Chen (17:06)

So let me try to recap and you tell me if I got it right. You would think that in modern history, Starting from the 20th century, a lot of the current models still trace back to Kurt Lewin's work, the classic three step model. And since then, most of the newer models basically follow a similar structure. Three, maybe five stages moving from where you are now to where you want to be, with some kind of transition or shift happening in between. So would it be fair to say that even with all the new frameworks, the core idea hasn't changed all that much since Kurt Lewin?

Richard Carson (18:03)

Yes, for the most part, even though a lot of these models were developed earlier, there wasn't a lot of interest until the book In Search of Excellence came out. That really made a big difference. And that was the beginning of people and mainly in the business arena looking at it and saying maybe there's a better way to do this. Almost a decade later, In Search of Excellence, kind of mort into Reinventing Government, which was another book that was the one that both Clinton and Gore picked up on in terms of implementing what that was about. So the whole idea of, I think the word reinventing is really key there. The whole idea of changing your organization and the fact that you, given what happens externally and internally, that forces change means you just can't ignore it. You shouldn't ignore it. It's like you said, change for the sake of change is ridiculous. But understanding the forces internally and externally and how to deal with all of a sudden became very, I guess, popular.

Vince Chen (19:18)

So stakeholder, basically managing the stakeholder perspective, the involvement, their needs, their concern Is that what you mean?

Richard Carson (19:27)

Yeah, exactly.

Vince Chen (19:30)

You have developed a new model. What's the name of it?

Richard Carson (19:35)

It's people. Sustained organizational change management. And I use the word people. Very intelligent on purpose. Because organizations consist of people and it's people that are the problem, people that are the solution. And the only way you're going to sustain change is to create that mindset in the people who work in the organization. I'll give you really an example. Before I wrote the book, when I was implementing change in my organization, I did two things that really helped. Consultants will give you a set of recommendations, they'll give it something in a binder and here you go. And a lot of people will just put that on a shelf. So the trick is to be successful is how do you maintain that? So two things you can do. Number one is to develop a, a multi year strategic plan that dedicates accountability resources to affect the change. The other thing I did was I created a position of change manager. Now you go into organizations and you aren't going to find a lot of titles of change manager. And this particular person, this woman, basically I gave her the authority to walk around the organization and say to individual managers, okay, you were given this task to be done on this date with these resources, how are you doing? And she would keep on. They had to meet those, meet those benchmarks. And so the strategic plan was implemented and there was a person making it happen. It isn't. You can't really be the manager because the manager has other things to worry about. But you need somebody whose job is to change manager. Having a multi year strategic plan with resources and a change manager really makes a big difference.

Vince Chen (21:47)

Yeah, I was just about to ask you about your model. You mentioned that it's built on Kurt Lewin's three step change framework. I'm curious, how is your model different from his or even from the other models out there? Give us an overview. How does your model work? What makes it similar to the classics and what makes it stand out?

Richard Carson (22:16)

It's similar in that the three phases are to initiate an organizational assessment, to implement organizational change and really to maintain that change. So that's basically the same as Kurt Lewin's model. The detail on it is. One of the things that's really trying to emphasize that he didn't touch on is the human aspect. You have to really have engaged people in the process. And I go into a lot of detail from the very beginning to the very end about how you use human resources. It isn't you. You need to Obviously have buy in from the leadership, but you have to have a process by which you engage the entire organization and everybody in it. Give them a role in making the process successful. And a lot of times what will happen is that a consultant comes in, makes recommendations. The leadership basically goes to the managers and says this is it, do it. And no one has had any input and are basically clueless in terms of what happens. A lot of times what happens is it won't work because the consultant didn't real, didn't dig down in the organization to find out what the real problem was or even if you knew what the problem was, how do you successfully implement it? I'm very concerned about a lot of consultants, okay, are basically selling a product over and over and over to different organizations. And they go in basically with a mindset that okay, this is it, this is what you're going to do. This is what I'm going to tell you. I have Xerox. This is actually, I'd say funny, but it actually is sad. Somebody actually gave a report to an organization and they just basically xeroxed, changed the name, but forgotten and mystical. So the organization is reading this recommendation. All of a sudden this other company name starts showing up. It's just like how embarrassing is that? And I totally understand their credibility. But oh, every exercise has to be unique and it has to basically be very sensitive to the people in the organization. And you really, it's important to really listen. And that's why we I. The initial phases of the model are sitting down with managers, line staff, stakeholders. If you were in a corporation, the consumers as well as supply. So really sitting down with those people and listening to what they are saying before you come to any conclusion at all.

Vince Chen (25:35)

So back to your model is people sustained. So while it includes the classic three stages, you've also built in several other steps and actions. What are they? Can you walk us through those? How do they come together in your model?

Richard Carson (25:57)

I'll go through the 10 steps, basically. First steps. Number one is first steps, problem identification, scoping out the problem. Second is there's a kickoff that explains the program, the process, everybody in the organization. So you don't just send out an email. You sit down with each of the organizations working groups and answer their. Take them through the process and get their buy in. Get them to understand that change can be difficult. But they will be part of the process and will have input all through the process. Then there's data collection and assessment. This is probably the most boring part because. Because you end up reading a lot of annual reports, a lot of statistical analysis, media press information, anything that's written or data driven. Then you go out to the stakeholders and meet with the individual stakeholders, whether they're vendors, consumers, whatever, however they touch the organization, you get, get that feedback. Then you go next into the actual organizational change. And I won't go through that in detail, but that's the diagnostic portion of the model. And what I ended up doing was I ended up using diagnostic model by the National Institute of Health, which was a medical diagnosis process. And what I, what I found was that organizations and people are remarkably the same in terms of their ailments and symptoms and how you can diagnose them because organizations are made up of people. And so that I've used that diagnostic model. Then you implement the change, there's process mapping, re engineering, then you lock in change. There's a number of ways to lock the change in, from executive leadership coaching to staff training, tqm, things like that. And then finally you maintain the model. And that's like I said, you can do that through multi year strategic plans and budgeting primarily. But you also need a feedback loop that constantly goes back on an annual basis and kind of looks at the benchmarks that you set to see if you are achieving those in one month.

Vince Chen (28:51)

That's it for today. We've heard how Richard stumbled into consulting, survived a time tracking nightmare and started seeing patterns in all the wrong problems. But next we get into the real playbook, the book of change. Why 39 steps might not be too many and human stuff consultants usually skip. See you in part two. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top rated reviews. Check out our website and follow me on social media. On this channel, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.