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Chief Change Officer™
Colin Savage: A Change Addict’s Quest Across Borders—From Canada to Japan and Beyond — Part Two
00:31:01
A special three-part series with Colin Savage. A self-proclaimed change addict turned change guru. Colin’s career spans continents, cultures, and industries—seven countries lived in, seven more seconded to, and projects in over 70 nations. From organisational transformation to personal reinvention, he's mastered the art of driving change and applying those lessons to life. Part Two.
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- [00:00]
Capella University Representative
At Capella University, learning the right skills could make a difference. That's why our business programs teach you relevant skills you can take from the course room to the workplace. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Edu.
- [00:16]
OnDeck Representative
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- [00:48]
Capella University Representative
Sweetheart, what about this one?
- [00:50]
Colin Selvage
Um. Nah, fam.
- [00:51]
Vince Chen
That's a little sus.
- [00:52]
Walmart Representative
Shopping with teenagers can be hard between figuring out what they like and what they mean. But with Walmart, at least shopping for their next pair of glasses is easy. With the Walmart app, you can virtually try on frames at home, upload prescriptions and get new glasses delivered right to your door. It's an easier way to get stylish glasses they'll actually like.
- [01:10]
Colin Selvage
Now these new glasses, Total vibes.
- [01:13]
Walmart Representative
Buying new glasses has a new look. Welcome to your Walmart. Valid prescription required.
- [01:19]
Colin Selvage
Cheers to a great day and this ice cold Corona. You know what would make this day even better? My grandma's carne asada. Or your grandma here with us making carne asada. She does love a cold Corona.
- [01:29]
Trevor Sikoma
Throw in some dancing, we can watch the game.
- [01:32]
Colin Selvage
I'll drink to that. So a backyard concert with football, food, dancing and Corona and your grandma. Or we could keep it simple. Simple is good.
- [01:40]
Vince Chen
Want a Corona?
- [01:41]
Colin Selvage
Thanks. Salute to the perfect day.
- [01:43]
OnDeck Representative
Corona la Vida Mas. Get your corona@order corona.com Relax responsibly. Corona Extra beer imported by Crony Port Chicago, Illinois.
- [02:01]
Vince Chen
Hi everyone. Welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer, I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change. Progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. This is a three part series with Colin Selvage. In part one, the first episode, we'll dive into Colin's fascinating journey as a self proclaimed change addict turned change guru. Colin's career spans continents, cultures and industries. Seven countries lived in seven more seconds and projects in over 70 nations. From organizational transformation to personal reinvention. He has mastered the art of embracing change and applying those lessons to life. In this conversation, Colin unpacks his unique perspective on change, how throwing himself into the unknown led to unparalleled growth and insight. From leaving Canada with nothing but a suitcase and ambition, to navigating industries from telecommunications to financial services, Colin shares how the constant evolution around him became his greatest teacher. In the next episodes, we'll explore the learning required for transformation, why Colin believes lifelong learning is outdated, and skills decking is the future. And finally, in part three, we'll tackle AI human intelligence and why every one of us needs a personal AI strategy. Buckle up. This one is a ride. Like you said, one of the threats running through your experience is change and strategy. You've worked with so many firms and organizations, guiding them through their transformations, so you must have seen countless business cases unfold. What have you learned from these consulting projects and organizational change initiatives that could apply to individual situations? Are there lessons from these business cases that also resonate on a personal level, especially when we face dilemmas or crossroads in our own lives?
- [05:16]
Colin Selvage
One example is going to be a bit of a surprise to people because they will have read potentially how traditional this country is. And this was Japan. So I lived in Japan, as I mentioned, for quite a long time. I'm with the Japanese life insurance company. We're in Brazil. We're seeing thing it's a bit unique in Japan. One of the largest minorities, Brazilian. And they are people who travel to Japan as youth. They have access to visas and other things and they start their working life in Japan. So they're actually indoctrinated. They learn working culture from being in Japanese companies. A lot of the men, otherwise they learn things like, hey, life insurance is important, you need to have it. The discussion was, how are we going to go build this business idea? And what came about was I learned that change, individual, team and otherwise, comes from talk doing a lot of promotion. So Japan is a lot about individual conversation to get support or get direction. Big organizations are great at providing that direction, but often indirect. You have to be acute to the human. So hey, why don't we consider this? Why do we do that? But also it's measured and it's planned change. You can't just come up with an idea and throw it at people and get them to say yes or no. You've got to research your idea. This is the market side. These are the people who look, they would buy. This is how it would benefit them if they stayed where they are or then when they moved back. This is how we could link a dovetail or a pipeline into getting new people in a new market, we might. So it took a lot of time, but I was very surprised and very proud that we actually managed to get this kind of. We. I got support from lovely people within the organization. They provided their time to me. We moved ahead. It would took two years, but the change did happen. And it was actually a real shining example of. Just because you think a culture and a group of people are traditional in their practices doesn't mean they're averse to change. You just need to be. Again, from that change addict thing we were talking about, not willy nilly not, hey, let's just do it for the sake of doing it. Be measured, be strategic, be researched in what you want to change and then find the kind and sport of voices. And if you find enough of them, you'll get groundswell and you'll be able to do it. If you don't, maybe your idea really isn't that great. Maybe you need to go back to the drawing. So learn to take the. The interest and the novelty and the energy that comes from a potential change and have it fuel you to do the really important steps. The fundamental steps to maybe make that change happen in the flip side would be actually back here in Canada, I work for a quite traditional marketing company. Probably if I tell you who it is, people will know right away. They brought me in as a changed person. That's how I was recruited. Please come here. We know our industry is on the decline. We're not really entirely sure where to go with it. We've seen what you did in other places. We're eager to change. We want a chance for. They used all the right words. They were very receptive to the idea. Before I moved in house, I got in there and I asked, do you want me to be disruptive? Would you like me to push new initiatives? Absolutely. This is what we want. And within a month of me doing that we don't really like, or that was a little too much. The reality is they were a different kind of ad. They were hooked on a legacy of very high revenue and high profit margin. And they weren't willing. They really weren't willing. And they hadn't done the time to figure out, do we want to change? Are we willing to forego some of that to potentially make it somewhere else? Or maybe not. And even though they had all of the support, allegedly support from people above and their ownership and others, they were incredibly reluctant to do it. So I was sitting in a role where change was in my title. But I couldn't do anything. And I had tried. I had built up goodwill, I'd got some champion. I was doing everything that change management told you to do. Pushing the needle here, scaling it here. And for the time period that I was there, they were wholly unwilling to take long. And at a certain point I had to you know what? It isn't going to work for me. I'm pushing the rock up Ill is as whatever the Greek method and I'm not getting anywhere and I'm being told two different stories. So we dig into it with really like an external push from other people so we don't want to do it. And it ended up being a failure for myself. And it's something that I've taken on and I accept. I learned a lot of really good lessons from it and frankly had some work with some wonderful people that were driven do it. But when the entire organization has been dictated change and not really trusting of the person who's supposed to pilot it, then not going to happen. But in this instance it's a little bit about. It's maybe less about the change addict thing, but learning about change guru, if that's a good word or change guide, which is all right, maybe we need to take step back and figure out what is your definition of change. Is it collectively the same? Do we all think this is a good idea? Okay, maybe we need to tailor it a little more specifically and then move on from there. And that's hopefully where I am now and how I actually go about it. A little bit more. There's a little bit less. Less. Put on the gas more. Let's put the car in park for a second and let's have a talk. We'll drive a block down the road and then we're going to have another talk. And that way we can get to the kind of again change that we're all trying to achieve and back to that definition of success. It's not just keep that directed by the outside or financial reasons wrongly the wholesome way that we're going to evolve and change for the better.
- [12:05]
Vince Chen
I can totally relate to your Canadian example. I've had a similar experience myself. We can chat more about it offline. But eventually it led to me leaving that company. If I think about it in a more personal context, like within a family, change isn't just about one person. It's a group decision that can lead to challenges too. For example, when I used to help younger professionals plan their MBA career paths, many of them would Ask me, Vince, should I apply to this school or that school? Should I study in this city or another city? Often these decisions weren't just about them. They were married, so the decision had to include my answer to them was, this isn't just about you. What does your husband or wife think? Have you discussed whether it will mean long distance for two years? Will they move with you? If they do, will they be able to work? If not, what happens then? That's where the tension often starts. One partner wants to change, but the other doesn't, or they see the change differently. It creates conflict, and that's not unlike what happens in a business setting. One stakeholder might push for a big transformation while others hesitate or resist because the interpretation of change is different. So, yes, I think that dynamic applies across contexts, personal or professional.
- [14:05]
Colin Selvage
My neck is hurting from how much I'm nodding, figuring that because one of the reasons and one of the benefits that I had is partner that I'm with. And she's actually been my sage, she's been my guide. The example that you, somebody from China wanting to give an mba, they're married, what are they going to do? I have basically dragged my partner and then our kids around the world. It was only until the sort of the last one or two times that I realized I need to sit down and I need to talk to her. I need to ask her, what are you? What do you think about it? Not just me moving for a job and to be the traditional one at the time, but not anymore, but the breadwinner, Uli, she has been the one that said, okay, so we're moving. All right, where are we moving? And then hit the ground running. And it was only later on, the last couple times that I've asked and I'm concerned about this, or I'm not sure how that's going to work, or what are we going to do in this instance? And a lot of the things she's done is really ground why we were going to go and move somewhere, why we were going to make significant change in our lives. To your example, I'm going to take it on, and then everything's going to be hunky dory and we're all going to be happy. But they weren't. They didn't know that they could voice it. And so now it's more like a collective. So now we're sitting around in Canada and we're thinking, so what's the next step? And my first step now is to go and talk to my two teenage sons and my wife and say, hey guys, what do you think about this? And the reality is whatever our age is and wherever our life is taking us, they'll come up with questions and problems and scenarios or that's, that's a chance, that's difficult and you've got to be a little bit more soul searching to figure out is this really right for me? Is this really what should happen and if it does, how is it going to go and how can I deal with it as and where it goes?
- [16:08]
Vince Chen
Actually, you have so many degrees that people often ask me, vince, are you collecting degrees? Are you sure? You laugh it off and say, no, I have three and I took each one very seriously. I don't even bother explaining why I pursued two MBAs anymore. But looking at you, Colin, you have even more. Would you consider yourself a lifelong learner? I imagine you have some strong opinions on that term. A lot of people lean on lifelong learning when they are at the crossroads or want to make a change in their lives. They fall back on education, upskilling, retooling, whatever the buzzword of the day might be. But you've shared some interesting ideas with me about skill stacking and how that might offer a more impactful approach. So what do you think of lifelong learning as a concept? How do you see it evolving and where does skill stacking fit into the equation?
- [17:28]
Capella University Representative
Sweetheart, what about this one?
- [17:30]
Colin Selvage
Um, nah, fam, that's a little sus.
- [17:32]
Walmart Representative
Shopping with teenagers can be hard between figuring out what they like and what they mean. But with Walmart, at least shopping for their next pair of glasses is easy. With the Walmart app, you can virtually try on frames at home, upload prescriptions and get new glasses delivered right to your door. It's an easier way to get stylish glasses they'll actually like.
- [17:50]
Colin Selvage
Now these new glasses Total vibes Buying.
- [17:53]
Walmart Representative
New Glasses Has a New Look. Welcome to youo Walmart. Valid Prescription Required.
- [17:59]
Capella University Representative
Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life. At Capella University, our flexpath learning format lets you learn on your own schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Edu.
- [18:15]
Colin Selvage
Very recently I found myself and I think I this also leads a little bit to my love for novelty. I don't think a day goes by where I don't find the topic that I go, hey, you know what, I should really study this. And then I go and I start spend 10 minutes looking for universities where I could go and I can study and I don't know if I'm ever actually going to get over that practice. But to talk to your specific comment about light blonde learning to skill Decker. So I am the product to academic people. So both of my parents were educators. They both were educators at all different levels. They were both academically inclined and so was our family. And it was ingrained in us very young in two ways. And the first one was we always had a room in our house that was more of a study than den. It was a room where there was a lot of books, a lot of things on the wall, inspirational quotes, all that kind of. And my parents often argued about who got to use the big desk and do their writing and do their research and whatever else. And on one of the walls were all of their degrees. So that's it. From a very early age, I'd look up at a wall and I'd see lots of people with paper and very nice brain. Oh, what are those? Well, that's my degree in education. So that was the first. And then the second one was, and this came more from a grandparent who actually didn't have a lot of education. He would relay to us as little kid all the time, you know what? Like, somebody can, they can take away your house, they can take away your possessions, they can take away your money, they can take your family, they can take your health, they can do all that kind of stuff. The only thing that they cannot take away from you is your education. And so I still believe that. I still believe that's very true. And so anyway, from a long, from my early age with those kind of two things, it was education is important, right? And you should constantly be learning. Right? And I don't, I didn't know at the time that you have to constantly be learning. Now it's related to keeping technology and technological advances and things like generative AI that I'm now studying all that. It was more like you just should keep learning all the time. My parents were very flexible and it didn't really matter what, but it was important that it was with somebody who knows it. So there was an expert. And at the end there was going to be some kind of, there was going to be a degree, a diploma, letters behind your name, whatever it is. So that's lifelong learning for me. There's continually learning from established institutions, programs gathering up the diplomas and other things, and really the area doesn't matter. Lifelong learning, learn whatever. But lifelong learning is, I think it's an outdated concept and particularly because it just lacks focus. I may Be an example of that. And that's where I studied English literature, I studied philosophy, I studied liberal art. Then I went to Japan and then I did a master's degree in Modern Japanese literature. Okay, there's a little bit of a connection there with literature, but different cultures, different languages. Then I go to the UK and I do a master's degree in social anthropology in Southeast Asia. Learning Burmese. I lived in lots of countries, so that's what they and cultures these people come from I can back up again. In hindsight I can connect them, but they didn't really have a focus on building expertise. They were disjointed variety of individual levels or understandings and mastery of skills and discipline. And then I had to actually build pathways. And one of the pathways that helped me do that was doing an MBA at Durham in the uk. And so I connected social anthropology, I connected multi generational stuff and I connected performance management for business to figure out a metric to understand how to support multigenerational organizations with different levels of performance management and guidance. But it wasn't purposeful. Fast forward a few years. Now we're into the pandemic. I'm living here in Canada. I'm sitting like most of us were in our own little home offices. I'm going to think LinkedIn learning in other places and I'm noticing connectivity between hey, what if I learn how to be better at doing online presentation and whatnot from this short course? Then I can use the skills that I learned as a lecturer to maybe coach it in house in my company so everybody will be better at sitting in virtual meetings. Hey, there's this new performance management tool online because we're all living remotely so we're worried about efficiency and all of those kind of things. How could I learn the technology behind it to maybe adapt it so we can add it to the practices we have in health? But there's still a little bit curious keeper big building and building and building. So what happened was I'm not entirely sure that stacking is the right word. I think it's more like staircase and you've got overlapped half or a little bit more. But then you branch off into new areas but you're constantly building your thought. And now to round off my comment, now I'm learning for the last two years generative AI and the large language model development, I've learned prompt engineering, all those kind of things. But now that's actually connecting back in like almost reverse skill tracking with clear thought and clear writing. If you're not A good writer and you're not good at generating good writing good step by step rate to do something to build the proper prompt. It can't do what you want, it doesn't deliver what you would like. And so you'll spend extra time tweaking it and tailoring it. Finally get to what you would. But if you were good at writing, which comes from spending a lot of time in literature, and you're good at research, which helps you figure out the steps to be able to get the result you'd like, combining those and learning how and understanding how AI, generative AI in particular, and prompt engineering the skill that you need to do it. You're stacking those or you're staircasing all of those and you're going to be able to generate way better results in generative AI on theme. And more importantly, even with people being able to guide them through a process, you're going to get the results matched there, which is better for everyone. Hopefully that's not a cheating roundabout way to get there. But I think, yeah. Now lifelong learning is an outdated concept and it lacks focus for some people where the skill stacking is a little more concentrated and it will help you really build expertise. But again, it's not going to be specific in an area, but you can apply it across swath of areas and it'll really help you advance your career and advance whatever you want to do to be a standout kind of person.
- [25:50]
Vince Chen
I kind of agree or disagree with what you just said. Lifelong learning is about the attitude. In my opinion, lifelong learning isn't just about acquiring new knowledge. It's about figuring out how you learn best. Some people thrive in classroom settings or in person workshops, while others prefer self paced digital formats. The methods vary, but the goal is the same, which is to keep growing, to keep learning. When it comes to skill stacking, I see it as something deeper. You mentioned it's about purposefully merging diverse skills to solve complex challenges. And I think you're right. What's often missing isn't the means to learn. We have more access than ever to tools, training and knowledge. The gap lies in connecting the dots between those skills and leveraging them in meaningful ways to multiply the impact. In my view, we are living in a tool economy tool. T o o L Everything is about the tool. Whether it's ChatGPT today, Google yesterday, or whatever the next hot thing will be. The mindset is if you have a problem, there's a tool for that. Need a solution? Just grab a hammer, a screwdriver, what is the problem? Most of the time those tools are just solving surface level symptoms, not addressing the deeper underlying issues. It's like putting a band aid on a cut without treating the infection. Sure, the immediate problem looks solved, but the root cause persists and people end up repeating the same mistakes. I see this pattern a lot, especially among knowledge workers. They buy into the idea of lifelong learning, sign up for courses, pay for certifications and stack up all these skills. But they don't actually go anywhere with them. Why? Because the key isn't just acquiring skills, it's in connecting them, applying them to real life scenarios case by case, and solving problems with them in an integrated manner. So the missing piece is less about technical skills and more about human skills. What most people call solved skills, problem solving, critical thinking, emotional intelligence, communication. These are the connective tissue that make skill stacking impactful. Without them, you're just collecting tools in a toolbox you don't know how to use effectively. That's where I think the future of lifelong learning needs to focus. Not just teaching new skills, but on helping people build the connections between them and apply them in meaningful, impactful ways. It's not about the tools themselves, it's about what you build with them.
- [29:43]
Colin Selvage
I agree. Yeah, you, you have brought the other hand that I'm not going to say that I forgot but what I would add to what you're saying and sweetly chord in the skill stacking I differentiate between calling the person and calling the professional all the time. So skill stacking, those are skills stack forward. My calling the person, that's where lifelong learning for me and always grow. And so I'm very clear on what's the differentiator because what you can do is if you're people like us or those listening that are like us, if you've brought all crazy horizon of areas that you're interested in and you've read about, studied, done, whatever to build up knowledge. It can be impossible to connect all the dots and make them all skip. I love reading modern African history. I have three shelves of books in my house that are all about the Democratic Republic of Congress. I am never going to use that, at least not now. Oh, I gotta go get that PhD in or I need to go in. This thing that I've been invested in for a long time and I enjoy reading about and it is a form of learning doesn't need to be something that I'm going to incorporate into my work life and I purposely keep it separate and that's the same thing of the Musical instruments that happen to be gathering bust unfortunately in the back of my room. Those are also skilled that I'm learning throughout my life just for my own enjoyment. And I'm totally with you on the law of the instrument. Right? If everything, if you've got a hammer and you're good at it, then look like Neil. I sit on a number of groups where we support startups and tech founders and entrepreneurs and the drive to just leap to the solution because I think I can sell a widget to somebody rather than understanding to your point like is this actually a problem or is this a system or something else. It just drives me nuts. And so we're just going to end up with now the toolkit is going to have 7,000 tools, 6,800 of which I don't know how to use and 50 that are actually useful for me to figure out any kind of a dilemma that I'm. I think, yeah, I think you've done Vint a good job of reminding me that maybe the lifelong learning thing should be just for life and that guilt, that should be where we focus on potentially getting the right kind of multi skilled person who to your point, doesn't just look down and build a tool but is able to interact with others, is able to be empathetic, show emotional intelligence, all those kind of things that I think maybe sometimes get sharp to the side over the. Let's build the technical experience and skill ourselves up with now I know not just C, but I also know all of these other JavaScript and other kind of software so I can build my own AI mock. Let's go. Right.
- [33:04]
Vince Chen
Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Vin, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.
- [33:39]
Capella University Representative
Is it time to reimagine your future? The right business skills may make a difference in your career. At Capella University we offer a relevant education that's designed to focus on what you need to know in the business world. We'll teach professional skills to help you pursue your goals like business management, strategic planning and effective communication. And you can apply these skills right away. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Edu.
- [34:09]
OnDeck Representative
How do you feel when you switch to GEICO and save on your car insurance? It's like going to work on one Thursday morning and thinking to yourself just one more day until Friday. But then somebody in the elevator says Happy Fri. Yay. Then you check your phone quickly and discover today is actually Friday. So yes, Happy Friday, random stranger in the elevator. Happy Friday indeed. Yep, switching and saving with Geico feels just like that. Get more with Geico.
- [34:40]
Trevor Sikoma
Hey everybody, I'm Trevor Sikoma, host of the PFF NFL show, here to tell you what you can find on all of our shows throughout the week. On Mondays, we have the Grade Release show, where myself and Dalton Wasserman break down every single game that you just saw in the NFL. On Tuesdays, we have the Quarterback Breakdown with Seth Galena. On Wednesdays we've got the Rookie Review with John Ledyard and the preview for the upcoming week in the NFL. So make sure you are subscribed to the PFF NFL show wherever you get your podcasts.