Erika Ayers Badan: Why “No One Cares About Your Career” Might Be the Best Advice Yet – Part Two

Summary

Chief Change Officer: Episode Summary - Erika Ayers Boden on "Why 'No One Cares About Your Career' Might Be the Best Advice Yet – Part Two"

Introduction

In this compelling second installment of the two-part series featuring Erika Ayers Boden, CEO of Food52 and former CEO of Barstool Sports, host Vince Chan delves deeper into Erika's life, career, and the profound insights from her book, No One Cares About Your Career. This episode explores Erika's upbringing, leadership philosophy, perspectives on career progression, and her vision for fostering positive work environments.

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1. Erika’s Early Life and Family Influence

Erika Ayers Boden opens up about her childhood, highlighting the significant role her parents played in shaping her business instincts and character. Growing up in Colorado, her father was a math teacher and later a school principal, while her mother balanced roles as a vocational teacher and homemaker.

Erika Ayers Boden [06:18]: “We didn't have a TV for a long time... I learned how to negotiate because my brother and I really had to duke it out to figure out what we were watching.”

Her recounting of negotiating TV time with her brother exemplifies early lessons in negotiation and compromise, foundational skills that have undoubtedly contributed to her success. Erika also shares insights into how her parents' dedication to teaching instilled in her a love for learning and a desire to inspire growth in others.

2. The Importance of Titles in Career Progression

Shifting the conversation to her professional journey, Erika discusses the evolving significance of job titles. Initially valuing titles as markers of advancement, she now prioritizes the scope of responsibility and impact over nomenclature.

Erika Ayers Boden [10:50]: “One of the things I write about in the book is, are you doing the same exact thing you did six months ago... I think that's way more important than title chasing.”

Erika emphasizes that continuously taking on more responsibility and embracing new challenges are far more indicative of true career growth than merely accumulating prestigious titles. She contrasts the differing perceptions of titles across industries, noting that in some sectors, like advertising agencies versus tech giants, titles can hold varying levels of significance.

Vince Chan relates to her perspective, sharing his own experiences in the financial services industry where titles often directly influenced salary scales. He echoes Erika's sentiment that impact and responsibility outweigh the allure of titles, especially in dynamic fields like technology and startups.

3. Embracing Failure as a Path to Success

A pivotal part of Erika's philosophy revolves around her positive outlook on failure. She advocates for a "fail always mode," viewing failures as opportunities for growth and innovation.

Erika Ayers Boden [14:53]: “If you feel like you are failing, it means... you're pushing yourself. I value people who endeavor to make something happen even if it doesn't happen.”

Erika believes that failure signifies a willingness to take risks and explore uncharted territories, essential traits for sustained success. She points out that avoiding failure often leads to stagnation, while embracing it fosters resilience and continuous improvement.

4. Cultivating a Growth-Oriented Work Culture

Moving beyond individual perspectives, Erika outlines her approach to building a company culture that encourages growth, collaboration, and resilience. She describes herself as a leader who demands high standards and embraces change, fostering an environment where team members are motivated to push their boundaries.

Erika Ayers Boden [18:03]: “I am a leader that wants growth. I insist on collaboration... I love the little jobs. So I also am a person who will dig and get into the trenches with everybody else to make something happen.”

Her leadership style is hands-on and participatory, aiming to build trust and mutual respect within her teams. Erika highlights the importance of aligning team dynamics with the company's mission, ensuring that each member is both accountable and empowered to contribute meaningfully.

5. Addressing Toxic Work Cultures

The discussion transitions to the pervasive issue of toxic work environments. Erika shares her aversion to negative workplace behaviors such as gossiping and complacency, emphasizing the need for individuals to take proactive steps in either improving their environments or seeking healthier workplaces.

Erika Ayers Boden [22:41]: “I have to find a way to either protect yourself from the environment or get out of that environment.”

She advocates for clarity and specificity when addressing workplace dissatisfaction, encouraging open dialogue about the root causes of negativity. Erika underscores that creating a positive work culture is a collective responsibility, where both leaders and employees play pivotal roles in maintaining a healthy and productive environment.

6. Guidance for the Next Generation and Parenting Insights

When asked about advising her teenage children in the context of an ever-evolving job market, Erika stresses the importance of resilience, work ethic, and a willingness to learn.

Erika Ayers Boden [26:27]: “My kids should apply themselves... give yourself to it and humble yourself to learn something.”

She reflects on her own upbringing without the conveniences her children enjoy, expressing a desire to instill in them the ability to navigate challenges independently. Erika's parenting philosophy balances encouragement of self-reliance with fostering environments where her children can explore and grow without being overly sheltered by technology or overprotective measures.

7. Future Aspirations and Ongoing Growth

In discussing her future endeavors, Erika reveals a plethora of ambitions ranging from creative pursuits like writing and painting to entrepreneurial goals such as establishing a clothing company in Africa.

Erika Ayers Boden [30:21]: “I have a dream to go back to Africa and make a clothing company with a women's collective... I'd like to read more.”

Her multifaceted interests demonstrate a commitment to personal growth and societal contribution, highlighting her belief in lifelong learning and the pursuit of diverse passions. Erika's openness to the unknown future underscores her adaptability and readiness to embrace new challenges as they arise.

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Conclusion

This episode of Chief Change Officer offers a deep dive into Erika Ayers Boden's journey, philosophies, and strategies for both personal and professional evolution. Erika's candid discussions on the diminishing importance of titles, the constructive role of failure, and the cultivation of positive workplace cultures provide invaluable insights for anyone striving to outgrow themselves and harness change as a catalyst for success. Her emphasis on resilience, continuous learning, and authentic leadership serves as a guiding beacon for growth progressives and changemakers aiming to make meaningful impacts in their respective fields.

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Notable Quotes:

• Erika Ayers Boden [06:18]: “I learned how to negotiate because my brother and I really had to duke it out to figure out what we were watching.”

• Erika Ayers Boden [10:50]: “Are you doing the same exact thing you did six months ago... I think that's way more important than title chasing.”

• Erika Ayers Boden [14:53]: “If you feel like you are failing, it means... you're pushing yourself.”

• Erika Ayers Boden [18:03]: “I love the little jobs. So I also am a person who will dig and get into the trenches with everybody else to make something happen.”

• Erika Ayers Boden [22:41]: “I have to find a way to either protect yourself from the environment or get out of that environment.”

• Erika Ayers Boden [26:27]: “My kids should apply themselves... give yourself to it and humble yourself to learn something.”

• Erika Ayers Boden [30:21]: “I have a dream to go back to Africa and make a clothing company with a women's collective... I'd like to read more.”

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This episode serves as a testament to the power of personal evolution and the importance of embracing change with vigor and intent. Erika Ayers Boden's experiences and wisdom offer a roadmap for listeners aiming to navigate their own career paths with authenticity and ambition.

Transcript

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[Vince Chen]

Hi everyone. Welcome to our show Chief Change Officer, I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. In the last episode, we started our two part series featuring Erica Ayers Boden, the current CEO of Food52, a leading innovator in the food, cooking and home space. Before her time at Food52, Erica was the first ever CEO of Barstool Sports and her career spans across media, marketing and tech with roles at companies like Fidelity Investments, Microsoft, AOL and Yahoo. She is also the author of a new book called no One Cares about yout Career. In the last episode, we dive into the book why she wrote it, why now, and why this title? We also unpack some key nuggets of wisdom, including five Simple Things Anyone can do to Succeed at Work. In this episode, Erika will open up about her life and career experiences, her upbringing, her parents, her leadership approach, and even her thoughts on toxic work cultures. And here's something you won't hear in other interviews. What career advice would Erica give her own to middle school children? Given the fact that we are in such rapidly changing workplace, let's dive right in. I found that in my life and in the lives of many successful people. I know their career decisions, how they present themselves and what they care about often link back to the past, whether is the family upbringing, early experiences, or even history of their parents or grandparents. These impact who they are today. Could you share a bit more about your younger years? Maybe something from your family life or childhood that nurtured your business instincts despite not going to business school? Was this something from your past that help shape the person you are today? Motivated, ambitious, successful, yet always true to yourself?

[Erica Ayers Boden]

Okay, so I had I was born in Colorado and my dad was a math teacher in Colorado. My mom made all of our food. My mom was very busy. She was also a teacher and she had stopped working to have my brother and I. My brother and I are a year apart in age. We moved back east when I was probably five or six and both my parents went back to work. My dad became the principal of the school of the town I lived in and my mom was a vocational teacher in the next town over. Our childhood, if I had to describe it was you could read, you could play sports, you could hang out with your friends, but you'd have to go find something to do with yourselves. You could stack wood or do chores. And that was pretty much it. We didn't have a TV for a long time and then we got a TV and my brother and I shared an hour of TV a week between us. And I always say that's where I learned how to negotiate because my brother and I really had to duke it out to figure out what we were watching. And ultimately we had to learn that if we both compromised to watch something we both wanted, we instead of getting a half hour each, we could get a full hour of television. I also learned my mother used to block mtv, which MTV was huge when I was a kid, so I would just call the cable company every month and say that I was my mother so that I could get the MTV turned back on. So I learned a lot of lessons, I think, just from how we were raised. I think with your when your parents are teachers, it's a selfless job and it's a super hard job. But it really is an incredibly generous job because you are trying to impart a love of knowledge and learning and you're really trying to inspire growth in other people, which I think is just really admirable. Also, it's strange to have my dad be the principal. I can remember my first day of middle school and someone scratching Erica Ayres is a blank, like, horrible word and so is her dad. They scratched it on the bathroom wall. So it also was in some ways sobering to have an authority figure in my school be my dad. I would say I learned a lot from both of those things, or all of those things. I think I really love to teach, and I think my parents gave me that. I think I have a fairly strange relationship with authority. I think that also comes from my childhood. But I also have an incredible desire to learn, and I think that's also what my parents gave me.

[Vince Chen]

It sounds like you grew up to be pretty independent, solving problems on your own. Recently I saw a post on social media talking about Generation X. They call it the figure it out Generation. They said we had to learn how to solve things on our own because our parents were too busy to hover over us. I'm Gen X2 and I can definitely relate to that. Your story reminds me of that experience. I also grew up in a disciplined environment and my parents actually blocked me from watching tv. Not just mtv, but all tv. The funny thing is, I am a visual learner, so I realized later that I learned best when I'm stimulated by visual images.

[Erica Ayers Boden]

Yeah, same.

[Vince Chen]

Now you've become CEO of two companies. Let's talk about your adulthood. In particular about building career from your perspective. Are titles at work really that important?

[Erica Ayers Boden]

I don't really care about titles now. I think that I can say that now. And it's a little bit hypocritical because a CEO is a great title. I did care a lot about titles in my formative years of my career and in the Hustle years where I was really trying to advance. I. I think here's how I feel about titles. One is, you should always be endeavoring to take on more than you had six months ago. One of the things I write about in the book is, are you doing the same exact thing you did six months ago. Without learning or growing or tripping on yourself or taking on something you didn't know exactly how to do. I think it's important to continue to grow in your career and in your purview. Do you have more problems that you're responsible for? Do you have more puzzles that you can't figure out? Do you have more poise? Do you have a bigger platform? I think that's way more important than title chasing. As I think about my career, yes, I definitely cared about titles. I care less about them now. I can remember going to Microsoft and Microsoft to be a vice president at Microsoft. What meant you had to spend 30 years at Microsoft to be a vice president at an ad agency? They gave those titles out like candy. So in a lot of ways, titling is different by industry, by company, by sector. But the sheer fact of what you oversee and what you are capable of doing stands irrespective of the title or regardless of a title. So I really feel the most important thing is that purview. It's that level of responsibility, it's your resilience, it's your capacity for impact is far more important than any title. And I tend to care about that it now in my job. But I also understand that as people look to grow, they want a title and a salary that's commensurate with the level of advancement and growth.

[Vince Chen]

Yeah, I must admit I used to be quite conscious about titles, especially in the financial services industry where titles often aligned with salary. If you don't have a MD title, for example, the salary range can be significantly lower. So in the first few years of my post MBA career, titles become a way to measure growth and progression. They were not and obsession, but they definitely mattered. For a lot of people, titles are still tied to career advancement. On the flip side, in the tech and startup world, titles like CEO have become much more democratized. But like you said, it's not really about the title is about the impact you make. With great titles comes great responsibility. That leads me to my next question as a leader. Beyond titles, how do you define success and how do you define failure? In your book you mentioned that failure is actually a good thing. I'd love to hear your perspective on failure versus success.

[Erica Ayers Boden]

Oh, I love failure. I call it fail always mode. And the reason I say I love failure is I don't like to fail at all. But if you feel like you are failing, it means a couple things. If you can take a step back, it one means that you care if you feel something about what you're doing, you care about it. And two, it means you're trying something new or you're doing something that you don't exactly know how to do the right way, or you haven't figured out the right way for you to do this thing. And I think that's a great way to feel because it means that you're pushing yourself. And what I really believe and value as a leader is people who push themselves. I value initiative. I value entrepreneurial thinking. I value people who endeavor to make something happen even if it doesn't happen. I personally will always reward the person who tried versus the person who played it safe and didn't evolve or change anything. So I think one thing that's hard for people, and myself included, is that it stings if you don't get something right. It can hurt. It can make you feel ashamed. It can make you feel inferior or stupid, and it stinks to feel that way. But the more you push and try and explore, the more you can ultimately take on and the better you will get at doing those things. And when you look back over the course of time, it's the people who kept pushing and trying and experimenting and failing and learning. It's those people who ultimately become more successful and who are able to stay successful because they have learned and tried a great deal more. And I think it's very dangerous to make your world really small and to only do things that you know 100% you will be perfect at doing. One, I think it's a little bit boring, and two, I think it doesn't change your world ever.

[Vince Chen]

So would you say the kind of culture you're building leans more towards a growth mindset? You've mentioned that you prefer employees to take risks, try things out, and even if it doesn't work out, you value the effort and the approach. Is that how you foster a culture of continuous improvement where the process gets refined over time and eventually leads to better results? A related question would be, how would you define your leadership style and approach?

[Erica Ayers Boden]

I am. I'm a leader that wants growth. I'm a leader who embraces change. I am highly collaborative. I insist on collaboration, want people who want to work with other people. I really value people who can perform and work independently, but who have a desire to play and win as a team. So I would say I'm tough. I have a high standard. I have a high pain threshold and a tolerance for being uncomfortable, for trying things. And I think that can be hard for some folks. But I also think it can be incredibly invigorating for others and a lot of being at a company, it's just alchemy. It's trying to find the right people who you work for as a boss and who work with you and push you and expect the same of you. I think I'm a leader who gets her hands dirty. Like I don't believe in a lot of times when people get to the executive space, they seem above doing the little jobs. Like I love the little job. So I also am a person who will dig and get into the trenches with everybody else to make something happen. And I think that's important because I think that's critical to having people trust your leadership and buy into your leadership and want to be a part of your leadership.

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[Vince Chen]

When we talk about work culture, whether on social media or in actual conversations about the job market, one term that keeps coming up is toxic culture. Personally, I think office politics is one source of toxicity. Yet it's almost inevitable when you have people working together. But beyond that, there are plenty of other factors that can contribute to a negative work environment. From your experience, what's your take on toxic culture? What experiences have you had in dealing with negativities in the office environment?

[Erica Ayers Boden]

Yeah, I have. I am allergic to complaining office gossip. Just inertia. It makes me crazy at work. I don't like, I don't like cultures like that. I don't like to be part of culture like that. I think it's is. I think environments are relentless and if you spend your time at work next to people who just complain or who are apathetic or who are bored or too busy gossiping or pontificating to do anything, I think that rubs off on you. So I think the biggest thing I would say is I think it's important to really be choosy about the environment you put yourself in. And if you are in an environment that is like that, then and you don't like it, you've got to find a way to either protect yourself from the environment or get out of that environment. I also think people, if Gen X is the figure it out group, I don't know what the millennials and the post millennials are, but I do think people throw the term toxic workplace around a lot. And a lot of times I'm not sure what it means anymore. In some cases, toxic workplace can relate to just to people having a bad boss and to a boss that is negative or a boss that is micromanaging or a boss that's inept. And when I'm at work anyways, I try to spend as much time as I can really getting to the heart of what someone is saying. If someone's saying, hey, I'm unhappy here because of XYZ buzzword, I try to spend as much time as I can to say, all right, let's get specific. What's going on? Do you have a chance to grow and thrive here? Are you able to do your best work? Are there high expectations of you? Are you clear on what those expectations are? Are you a positive member of a unit or a team? Are you collaborative? And the same questions for people's bosses and the same questions for people who work for people. But really what I believe is that work is truly what you make it. And if you are punishing and punitive and negative at work, you're not going to get a whole lot out of it. In the same way that if you're a victim at work and you want to put the blame for everything going wrong in your career on someone else, that's not going to get you very far either.

[Vince Chen]

With four or five generations currently in the workforce, each having different experiences and perspectives, I imagine even the same situation can be seen through very different lenses. I know you have two teenagers in your family, and if they come to you for advice about their careers, not now, but maybe in a few years, they're considering what to study in college. What kind of advice would you give them? Not as a successful CEO or social media figure, but as a parent, how would you guide them about their future, considering what you see happening in today's workplace?

[Erica Ayers Boden]

I think in one way, Vince, I would say I would answer it the same as I would for anybody else, which is I think my kids should apply themselves. I think they should be students. I think they should. It doesn't really matter what you do first, just so long as you do something and you apply yourself to it and you give yourself to it and you humble yourself to learn something. That's what's most important to me, that these kids have a good work ethic, that they are resilient, that they are polite and show gratitude when someone offers to teach you something or someone gives you feedback. I think a lot of times it's very easy to reject feedback now and just say, I'm above feedback, or I don't agree with the feedback, versus saying, hey, someone's trying to teach me something. So on one part, I would say all those same things. On the other part, it's hard. I didn't grow up with a lot of the advantages that my kids have, and I spend a lot of time worrying that those advantages are actually disadvantages. I didn't get on an airplane for a long time until I was probably, I think, in high school. I didn't have the exposure to the things that my kids have. And in some ways, I think I'm a little bit soft as a parent, which I get on myself about. And in other Ways I think back to my childhood and the fact that we didn't have screens and we had to make the most of every day just with your brain and a little bit of mischievousness and you had to pass the time. How do I put my kids in environments where they have to figure things out for themselves and they are not coddled by me or coddled by a screen? And that's where my head is at right now. I think having middle schoolers are fun. It's an awesome, terrible age and it's a really hard age. There's a lot happening. There's a lot of hormones, there's a lot of anxiety and I feel the pressure of time because I also, I really feel middle school is the end of the clay hardening and these kids are going to be these kids pretty soon. And my. The impact I can have or that their environment can have on them is pretty close to being baked. So I spend a lot of time thinking about that.

[Vince Chen]

Yes, for sure. Kids these days have access to so much so easily. I didn't even get on a plane until I was 11. And now you see kids flying business class at such a young age, traveling the world with the parents, getting sent to boarding schools. Things we couldn't imagine back then. But anyway, that's probably a topic for another episode on parenting. So for my last question, looking ahead, what's your next challenge? Maybe it's not just the next one. Perhaps you already have a few things in mind. Or maybe it's about a single life mission that you've been pursuing all along, with each project being another step towards that goal. Can you share with us your business goals, life goals, or any future projects you're planning to embark on?

[Erica Ayers Boden]

Oh, I have so many goals and I have so much to learn and I don't. I don't even know what the future will hold. So I also love that, which is there's a great unknown. I feel this year was a big year for me where I took a new job after a decade. In my past job, I wrote a book. I launched a book. So I feel, to be honest, Vince, I'm still getting my sea legs of figuring out what this new place in life is like. I think for the future, I really did love the writing. So I would like to do more writing. I think that is something that I'm interested in. I don't know what that will look like yet. I'm very interested in food 52 and schoolhouse and dansk and this company that I'm leading now. And I'M spending a lot of time thinking about what I could make this into and where this could go and what it could be. So I'm spending a lot of time thinking about that future. I have a dream to go back to Africa and make a clothing company with a women's collective. I have this idea that I'm going to learn how to paint. I'd like to read more. So all sorts of things. I'd like to have a Maine coon cat. So very random, Vince. But there's all sorts of things I'd like to do.

[Vince Chen]

Maybe another book on parenting, for example, like I just mentioned.

[Erica Ayers Boden]

Oh gosh, I don't know about that.

[Vince Chen]

Thank you, Erica. I really enjoyed our conversation. You are a busy experience executive and as I said at the beginning of our part one together, that's the last episode. I feel like I hit the jackpot locking you down for an hour for this interview. Your nuggets of Wisdom, including those 90 second pieces of advice on your YouTube channel, are truly valuable.

[Erica Ayers Boden]

I love your energy. I think it's great.

[Vince Chen]

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, Leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm this Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, Take care.