Chris Hare (5:47)

Yeah. So there's two very practical tools that I recommend, and if it's helpful, I can share a worksheet with you that walks through these that you could share with your guests. But the first exercise is what I call the movie theater. It's. And so it's a visualization where I have people think about their very first day of retirement. And some people say, okay, I'm never going to retire, so maybe the last week of life, right? When you're elderly, what I have people think about is, okay, yesterday you had a retirement party. They gave you a watch or a plaque, and today you have no more title, no more power, no more paycheck, also no more emails, Hooray. And all of those things. And so you decide to go to the movie theater. You buy a ticket for the blockbuster, for this blockbuster, and you go and sit in your favorite seed, and you have your Coke and you have your popcorn, and there's no one else in the theater. And the movie starts playing. And so then I have people visualize that movie that plays is actually not the blockbuster. It's actually your life playing and your career, not just your career, but your entire life, one scene after the next play. And the good, but also the bad, the people that you brought with you, the people you left behind, et cetera. And so I have people not just think about that, but feel that and sit in it and then start asking questions of what are some of the themes that you're seeing? What are you feeling good and bad? What might you call that movie and that sort of thing? And so what that does is help you see the trajectory that you're on, what you want that future to look like, but also what does your past look like and bringing up those scenes? And so that is one way of. It's interesting because it feels very peaceful in one sense. You're in this envisioning this quiet movie theater. But the other hand, it can be chaotic because you have all these stories that can come flooding in. So that's one exercise that can really stir that up. And then you can start to analyze, okay, what's the narrative that's going to get me there? If I want a different future, what's the narrative that's going to get me to that future? And then the other piece is the one that I think is the most practical if you want to find, uncover atomic stories that you didn't know were there, is doing the 360s. So. So what I would recommend is picking three to five people. And this is not the 360 that many of us from corporate America are used to, where you have people that there's all kinds of politics and they're evaluating you, potentially putting you down, being very critical. The goal here is not that. The goal here is to go and talk to three to five people who know you, care about you, and want you to succeed, and they know you in different spheres and ask them, spend 30 minutes, ask if you can record the call and ask them the first question based on how you've seen me live my life, what do you believe my number one value is? Or you could ask, what are my top two values? Whatever. And then the next question is, please tell a story that you believe best demonstrates that value. And there's other questions that you can ask. So if you're wanting to know thought leadership, for example, potential directions for thought leadership, what's the one thing that Vince should write about forever? If Vince could only talk about or write about one thing, what would that be? To put constraints on it. So you take those interviews, you record them, and then start looking at the patterns from them and seeing and looking at, okay, what are those stories that they told and how do they make me feel? How do they challenge my thinking? How might I synthesize those to shift the direction that I'm going? The great example of this was how I ended up bringing 360s into my methodology. But I had on Art Dela Cruz, who's the CEO of Team Rubicon, an amazing nonprofit that deploys veterans, gives veterans community and purpose by creating opportunities for them to go and serve after natural disasters. And so Art had an entire career in the Navy and was a Top Gun instructor as a fighter pilot or naval aviator and was a Top Gun instructor. He said the only thing that was true in the first Top Gun movie was when their plane went into a 360 spin. And that happened to him for 57 seconds their plane was plunging towards the desert and they did desert floor and they did all of the things to get out of the spin and they couldn't and so they had to eject. A 40 million dollar plane blows up in a fireball with I think 14,000 pounds of fuel and then they're parachuting down and have to maneuver their parachute so they don't land in the fireball. What was interesting, he talk through the narrative, the internal narrative and then how he navigated through that and then how he came back from that to fly again. A lot of people wouldn't be able to fly again. He took ownership even though he was mostly not at fault. What was interesting though is I posted about that on LinkedIn. It was the highest true engagement of any post I've ever had on LinkedIn. Because what was fascinating is person after person from across decades who have known him came and commented on who he was as a leader, how they owed him for what he taught them or people within the non profit that he works in telling just remarkable stories about who he was as a leader. And so this wasn't him saying how do I burnish my executive brand and how do I tell this story that positions me as a thought leader. It was him telling this very raw and vulnerable story. It was also the fact that he lived in those moments. He led in those moments across his career even when no one was watching or seemingly no one was watching. But because he had the guts to tell this story in that environment that opened up for people to come and share these perspectives that gave him an opportunity to hear those things that he might never have heard. So that's what sparked that. But I would say those are the two tools is one that future visioning and then the other is the 360 piece.

Vince Chen (12:20)

First, let me admit the movie theater exercise is something I'll definitely want to try. Please do send me the worksheet. I can imagine that if I were in that theater alone I would lightly cry, even though I'm not typically one to shed tears, not even happy ones. But picturing myself in that situation, not so much at retirement, but maybe at the end of my life, it would move me deeply. As for the 360 degree feedback, I actually did a version of this a few years ago, not with just three to five people, but with about 55, zero people across different periods of my life. Some friends from 30 years ago, others from 20 or 10 years back covering a range of relationships and contexts. I asked each of them to answer, what do you see as my superpower? And to share words that came to mind when they thought of me. Each one responded with their unique insights, elaborating on their thoughts. I took notes on everything, gathered the data points and even created a spreadsheet to track common themes. My Chicago training pushed me to analyze these patterns and it was fascinating to see the traits that surfaced across the board. That exercise gave me meaningful clarity and reinforced aspects of myself I felt aligned with. It was incredibly helpful.

Chris Hare (14:36)

Yeah. So I think some of it is what will people take on? And so for some of my clients, talking to three or four people, that might be a lot for them. But on the flip side, I'm actually working with a founder named Dr. Tammy Wang. So she used to be the VP of Machine Learning and analytics at Korn Ferry and her co founder is a leadership development professor at Columbia. And so we're actually taking my storytelling frameworks and the first one we're doing is Atomic360 and we're putting it on their AI leadership development platform. So it'll give you a tool where you could actually do that at scale and so stay tuned on that. So I'll definitely share that with you so that you could go to 50 or 100. But yeah, I think absolutely, if somebody wants to do that and can do that, I think that's amazing. There could also be the danger with people can give us feedback based on the version of us. So if we're living by a particular narrative and we're presenting in the world based on that narrative, people could actually end up reinforcing that narrative. That needs to change.

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Chris Hare (16:05)

Now show your love Discover all our black founded brands@walmart.com blackandunlimited I had a client recently when I met with one of his 360 interviewees. Highly successful businessman, phenomenal. And what I actually realized is what my client's internal narrative was had been shaped by an interaction that he had with this friend and business leader years ago. And what this business leader had done is he had actually projected his narrative on my client and kind of infected his narrative. And so my client took that on and it created significant discontent and shifted his trajectory based on that. So if I had said hey, this is truth. Or if you'd had 50 people that were also saying and I actually did have other people say similar things, that would have kept my client embracing the wrong narrative. And so I think we just have to be careful and think about them in terms of these are inputs, but we need to synthesize them and frame them up against that future that we want to create.

Vince Chen (17:19)

All the lesson I learned goes back to my days as an MBA admissions interviewer. You mentioned input and output, and it got me thinking about how MBA and law programs and similar institutions often shape future alumni and leaders. It's not only about the narrative they tell, it's about how they select candidates. They choose specific types of people with qualities that maximize the likelihood of success. That's why these schools can point to impressive alumni is by design. Why does this relate to the feedback exercise I did with my 50 friends? Because I was equally thoughtful about who I chose. First, I knew they would be willing to give me a solid 30 minutes of their time or even more. Second, I selected those who knew me well enough. Spending various parts of my life, some friendships going back 30 years, others from the last decade I intentionally created a diverse pool to get a wide range of viewpoints. Additionally, these friends saw me in different roles and at different times, so they each had unique perspectives on my evolution. I aimed for a meaningful balance enough for people to get diverse insights, but not so many that the feedback would become irrelevant. I felt 50 was just right, nor wouldn't have added value if the people were not as closely connected with me.

Chris Hare (19:35)

And I'm curious, so what was your conclusion based on all of that input in terms of what your superpower is?

Vince Chen (19:43)

Superpower? First of all, most of them mentioned that I am a deep thinker. Words like logical, analytical, and persistent came up frequently. Once I decide to pursue something, they see me as unwavering in following in through. Interestingly, some offered perspectives I had not considered myself. For example, Waverly Dorch, my former professor from Chicago, Booth, who is also my guest on the show in season two. If anyone is interested, she commented on my ability to do math and tell stories, which in her words is a rare combination. I took this as a positive compliment given her unique background. She is a PhD in theater history with an undergrad degree in computer science, combining both artistic and quantitative strengths in her teaching of entrepreneurship and business. Her lens on my skills was influenced by her own experience as someone who bridges the gap between art and science. One takeaway here is that the people you choose to ask for feedback come with their own perspectives. The insights into your strengths are inevitably influenced and limited by their backgrounds. That's why selecting a diverse group, thoughtfully chosen for their varied experiences is key to gaining a well rounded understanding of your superpowers.

Chris Hare (21:56)

Yeah, I think what's coming to mind as you're saying that too is there's what's also challenging. So the work that I'm doing is very like, it's very unstructured data. Right. Like it's based on a conversation. And it's also part of it is reading the energy of the person and the stories that they're telling. And for example, although I think it would be good to introduce this as well, here's 10 questions. Answer A, B and C on each one of them. But in terms of the inputs, with these conversations, it can be 100 to 150,000 words from these interviews. You also introduce the challenge of when you're interviewing these people, you also, like, we unknowingly put weight on more weight on some people's opinions than others, whether it's because of the friendship or the level of friendship, or whether it's because of the position they have or the power that they have or their role that they've had. Right. So like Jonathan Adler, he teaches at Department of Psychology at Olin College of Engineering and then also Harvard Medical School. He talks about the fact that if I'm telling you a story, if we had our cameras on right now, I'm never telling the same story twice. I'm rewriting the story as I'm telling you based on your face, how your facial expressions, your body language, your tone of voice, the fact that you say something, the fact that you don't say something. Right. So there's all those factors that play into it that make it incredibly complex.

Vince Chen (23:28)

Right, exactly. And that's the key point I want to emphasize. This is precisely why AI cannot replace the human touch. AI has incredible data capacity and can assist in generating a vast amount of content, but it lacks the nuanced understanding that comes from genuine human, human connection. Hallucination issues aside, even when it comes to reading emotions, we still don't have technology that truly reflects the depth of understanding needed. Some advancements are being made in emotion detection, but it's far from capturing the authentic experience of sitting across from someone, reading their body language, responding naturally, and engaging in a meaningful, unscripted conversation. That's where the human element remains irreplaceable.

Chris Hare (24:41)

Yeah, exactly. Because I've seen if you looked at the transcripts from some of my interviews, if a machine were to read it, there's nothing there. They were just saying something, talking about some interaction they had at an office that was incredibly minor, therefore it's not important. But if you were to see the person and see their smile or see the light in their eyes that shifted or hear the rise in their energy, that's a clue that the machine would not have picked up. Right?

Vince Chen (25:10)

Chris, I really want to thank you for your time today. You've been incredibly generous actually giving me a full 90 minutes of your time.

Chris Hare (25:21)

I love it. Thank, yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing, amazing conversation. The questions you ask are extraordinary.

Vince Chen (25:32)

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top rated reviews. Check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.