← Chief Change Officer
Chief Change Officer
Wayland Lum: From Art Supplies to Executive Boardrooms —The Art of Betting on Yourself
00:25:39
Wayland Lum’s leadership journey started in an unexpected place—selling art supplies. Fast forward, and he’s now the CEO of Copperbox Leadership Advisory, with a resume that boasts Korn Ferry, Nvidia, and Chicago Booth. So how did he go from canvases to coaching top executives? In this episode, Wayland talks about the fear-courage tightrope, the power of leading with authenticity, and why stepping outside your comfort zone isn’t as scary as you think.
Loading summary
Transcript34 lines
- [00:01]
AT&T Representative
AT T Mobile we'll give you four free 5G phones and four lines for only $25 per line per month with eligible trade ins. And no, it's not a contest. It's every day for a limited time. Everyone's a winner on America's largest 5G network.
- [00:13]
Minimum of 4 lines for $25 per line per month with autopay discount using debit or bank account $5 more per line without autopay up to $830 off each phone via 24 monthly bill credits plus taxes, fees and $10 device connection charge. 4 well qualified customers contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance on required finance agreement due bill credits and if you pay up devices early ct mobile.com.
- [00:31]
Talkspace Representative
This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself? Talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code SPACE80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace. Do $80 with code SPACE80@Talkspace.com this podcast.
- [01:32]
IQ Bar Representative
Is sponsored by IQ Bar.
- [01:34]
Will
I've got good news and bad news. Here's the bad news. Most protein bars are packed with sugar and unpronounceable ingredients. The good news? There's a better option. I'm Will and I created IQ Bar Plant protein bars to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low sugar, brain and body fuel. IQ bars are packed with 12 grams of protein, brain nutrients like magnesium and Lion's Mane and Zero Weird Stuff. And right now you can get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Try our delicious IQ Bar Sampler Pack with seven plant protein bars, four hydration mixes and four enhanced coffee sticks clean ingredients, amazing taste and you'll love how you feel. Refuel smarter, hydrate harder, Caffeinate larger with.
- [02:19]
IQ Bar Representative
IQ Bar go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20. To get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiqbar.comand enter code BAR20. Reward your appetite for life with the AMEX Gold Card. Find out how to access over $500 annually with benefits across dining and travel. Gold makes every experience more rewarding. Terms apply. Learn more@americanexpress.com US Explore Gold Foreign.
- [02:55]
Vince Chen
Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change, progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today's guest is from Austin, Texas in the United States. Wayland Long. His career in HR has nothing short of remarkable. Back in college, he studied industrial and organizational psychology. Then after graduation, he worked at some of the biggest and most influential institutions in the world, including the highest valued company of the present day, Nvidia, and a global organizational consulting firm, Coinferry. He also spent eight years at Chicago Booth School of Business, helping MBA students shape their career futures. Now he's in Texas, running his own leadership practice. On this show, we'll explore three areas of interest. First, his career evolution from big corporations to consulting to business school and private practice. Second, the eight principles of modern leadership he creates for his leadership clients. Third, his vision for human and AI coaching partnerships. Let's get started. Wayland, welcome to our show. Finally, I got you on the call with me.
- [04:55]
Wayland Long
Yeah, no, it's great. Thanks for having me, Vince. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
- [05:00]
Vince Chen
If my memory serves me right, last time we met in person it was in London. And last time I went to Texas it was before COVID for South by Southwest. The time flies. Yet I'm happy that we've kept in contact with reunited at some point and now you come to my show to share your wisdom and insights with the audience. Thank you so much. How are you doing?
- [05:32]
Wayland Long
I'm doing well, Vince. Yeah. It's another balmy day in Austin, Texas and I'm looking forward to the summer as we chatted about before. So yeah, and also excited to be with you and have a great conversation.
- [05:47]
Vince Chen
Weilan, let's start with your history. Your career in HR has been nothing short of remarkable. Back in college, you studied industrial and organizational psychology. Then after graduation, you've worked at some of the biggest and most influential institutions in the world, including the highest value company of the present day Nvidia, a global organizational consulting firm, Coinferry. You've even spent eight years in Chicago and London shaping the careers of MBA students at the Top 1 Business School, Chicago booth. Now you're in Texas running your own leadership practice. Can you walk us through your career evolution?
- [06:42]
Wayland Long
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Vince. So I think early on, going back to undergrad, I knew early on that I had a desire to meld the disciplines of psychology and business. And so it was a very easy choice for me to study industrial organizational psychology. I did that at San Jose State. Go Spartans. And. And from that experience launched my career into hr, which got me close to talents organizational talent, first in Silicon Valley and high tech, and then more broadly across to New York and then other parts of the country as well. And I would say, Vince, the thing that has been a prevailing theme in my career is how to work with and provide value to the best talent in the world. And so if you look at my career trajectory, it's really been a journey and a sort of quest, if you will, to find who those individuals are or those groups of people and be able to work closely with them, to really help them develop their maximum potential and become the now the folks that I have now, the leaders that they're meant to become. And by doing so, we know that the world is more positively impacted and becomes a better place.
- [08:00]
Vince Chen
Here's what I find truly admiring and courageous of you. You've taken the leap from these large, prestigious organizations to running your own leadership practice. Many people were shying away from that, sticking to the conference zone, the stable paycheck and the prestige of a big corporate name and a nice business card, but you did not. What was the pivotal aha moment that led you down this path of building your own practice? Was there a specific experience that made you think, this is it, I just need to do this? And once you made that decision, how did the transition actually play out?
- [08:52]
Wayland Long
Yeah, so the decision was really many years in the making. And it really started, Vince, as I coach a lot of the leaders that I work with and understand more about them, it really does start with early formative experiences. Right. Growing up, when I was thinking about career and stuff, I actually thought I was going to be an artist like my dad. He was a graphic artist. I enjoyed oil painting, using Prismacolor, drawing, etc. And that creativity has always stayed with me. And then when I moved into business psychology, industrial organizational psychology, that creativity and wanting to innovate really manifested itself in now this new area of interest for me that became my career. And so I always had that. And when I was at these larger organizations, I felt that I wasn't fully able to express that sort of creativity and maybe perhaps fully work with leaders in the way that I wanted to, which would be much deeper, more transformational, and really wanting them to make significant changes in terms of who they were and then in turn make changes in who they were as leaders. One thing that I often coach my clients on, and indeed as coaches and consultants, particularly as coaches, we have and leaders, we've got to walk our talk. And so we cannot simply be coaching other leaders on what they may need to do and how they need to change, but we also need to step into our own, change ourselves and be held accountable for that. And so I'd often coach my leaders to be bold, courageous in their decision making, to really go with their intuition, follow their heart, and really step out into the directions in which they believe they need to. They need to go. And when it came down to the fundamental question I asked myself is way, are you going to stay within a large organization, rely on the reputation of this firm, the resources, the beautiful steel and glass building that you walk into every day, and with all the nice facilities and the office environment that you have privilege of having access to, or are you going to go step out and bet on yourself? And when I frame the question like that, Vince, the answer became very clear. I had to go step out and bet on myself as I would have coached and encouraged my leaders that I work with to do. And I can say that I have not regretted a single moment. It's been absolutely amazing.
- [11:29]
Vince Chen
I am 200% agreeable with your choice in walking the walk and talking the talk. In a world where a lot of people just talk, a lot of times they talk very, very loud without much substance at all. Walking the walk and talking to talk becomes very precious and courageous. Unfortunately, it is also something that is silenced by the noise in the world. But that's what makes a true leader.
- [12:06]
Wayland Long
I absolutely agree.
- [12:08]
Vince Chen
You are a coach, yet I'm curious, have you ever been on the other side of the coaching relationship? What was it like being coached? And how has that experience shaped your approach with your own clients today?
- [12:26]
Wayland Long
Yeah, early on in my career, when I was just starting out at hr, I actually did hire a coach for myself and my coach. The reason why I hired him, and this is way back in the, gosh, early, early 2000s, I wanted to become a coach. And therefore I thought a good way to do that would be to get mentorship and be able to learn from a really experienced executive coach. And I remember, I think one of the most important things that he taught me because he used to continuously push me and say, waylon, you can do this. You can work with these types of leaders. You can have the type of impact that you want to have with a certain level of leader. And at the time of insight, I didn't quite believe him or I didn't feel ready. And that's probably understandable given I was much younger and didn't have the experience and the tools and I would say even the life experience that I have now. However, that experience of working with him has influenced the way that I develop others. And so I'm always pushing them to be more than what they envision themselves being at this point in time. And I do that with my team and certainly do that with the client leaders that I work with as well. And what I found is that when you have that expectation of people, more often than not they're able to rise to the occasion and they will become more, more than they have thought possible. And that's really awesome to see. I think in terms of coaching, I highly recommend that to anybody. And whatever sort of aspect of your life that you might want coaching for, I do encourage you to explore that. Of course, you need to find the right person, the right fit, but I found it for myself to be tremendously rewarding. I still work with some business coaches here and there to help me with thought partnership and just being a good counterpoint or a good thought partner as I think about growing my own business and also how I am leading others.
- [14:25]
Vince Chen
So on your LinkedIn profile, you have this statement, we develop modern leaders to face the biggest business challenges. Speaking of leaders, who are the people you typically work with? Can you paint a picture for our listeners of the kinds of leaders you coach?
- [14:48]
Wayland Long
Yeah, absolutely. And that statement, talking about walking the talk, then we develop modern leaders to face their biggest challenges. That is really a derivation also of what the vision of Copperbox is, which is to prepare leaders to confront and address the greatest challenges of our time. And that is both our vision. It's also an aspirational goal that we have for our firm. And it goes beyond the realm of business and into areas such as government policy, certainly large, big problems that the world faces, such as climate change and misinformation, loneliness, et cetera. And so that's our aspiration. Now, how do we do that in more sort of purposeful and day to day terms is through our work with business leaders. And so one area that we are very focused on and do a lot of work in is private equity and supporting private equity operating companies and their executives. As we know, private equity moves at a very fast pace. Firms have investment theses that they need to that they need to achieve and fulfill, and they do that through the talent that they have at their portfolio companies. A lot of our work is really helping those leaders to quickly identify the areas of their leadership that need to be the gaps need to be quickly closed and to really partner with them closely at pace in order to do that. And when I mean at pace, I really mean on a quarter by quarter basis, which is the cadence of business in general. That's certainly the cadence of business within private equity, where they're trying to achieve very specific objectives and goals quarter by quarter.
- [16:33]
Vince Chen
You know, we hear the term modern leadership thrown around a lot these days. I was wondering, what does that actually mean to you? How would you define modern in the context of leadership?
- [16:52]
AT&T Representative
AT T Mobile we'll give you four free 5G phones and four lines for only $25 per line per month with eligible trade ins. And no, it's not a cont, it's every day for a limited time. Everyone's a winner on America's largest 5G network.
- [17:04]
Minimum of 4 lines for $25 per line per month with auto paid discount using debit or bank account. $5 more per line without autopay. Up to $830 off each phone via 24 monthly bill credits plus taxes, fees and $10 device connection charge. 4 well qualified customers contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance on required finance agreement too. Bill credits end if you pay up.
- [17:20]
Talkspace Representative
Devices early ct mobile.com this podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com, match with a licensed therapist. Today at talkspace.com save $80 with code.
- [18:20]
IQ Bar Representative
Space80@Talkspace.Com this podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar.
- [18:25]
Will
I've got good news and bad news. Here's the bad news. Most protein bars are packed with sugar and unpronounceable ingredients. The good news? There's a better option. I'm Will and I created IQ Bar Plant protein bars to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low sugar, brain and body fuel. IQ bars are packed with 12 grams of protein, brain nutrients like magnesium and Lion's Mane and Zero Weird Stuff. And right now you can get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Try our delicious IQ Bar Sampler Pack with seven plant protein bars, four hydration mixes and four enhanced coffee sticks. Clean ingredients, amazing taste and you'll love how you feel. Refuel smarter, hydrate harder, caffeinate larger with IQ Bar.
- [19:12]
IQ Bar Representative
Go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20 to get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiqbar.com and Enter code BAR20.
- [19:23]
Wayland Long
Yes, so modern leadership is really about the many demands of a leader today that didn't exist or they didn't have those expectations put upon them even, let's say four or five years ago, pre Covid, but in a post Covid era, and particularly with the challenges that we face today, societal, not to mention in business. Right. Modern leadership is required. And so how I define it, and I know we'll talk in a moment, Vince, about the eight principles, but how I really define it is taking a more timeless view on leadership based on understandings of human nature, based on understandings of patterns that we've seen occur throughout history, and based on an understanding of the on the ways in which people typically react and respond to different types of stimuli in their environment. So those are just a few examples, but what we're really looking at here is understanding leaders and leadership and how to lead from a much more systemic point of view and not simply, oh, I'm interacting with this individual or this group, but really understanding that individual and that group within the context of a system. And more timeless principles about how individuals and groups operate.
- [20:57]
Vince Chen
Yes, your eight principles of modern leadership. I read them all before our call today. I'm so impressed. For example, one of those is nature as majestic teacher you write, nature serves as a timeless source of wisdom. Wisdom is both ancient and modern. Here's another one. Embrace life's stages and seasons. Every person is born, lives and dies. We have seasons in life, spring, summer, fall and winter. On this show, unfortunately, we can go through all of those principles in details, but could we explore those a bit? Maybe you could share some real world examples of stories that illustrate them that you use to help your clients become a modern leader, to face, to embrace, and to master the biggest challenges.
- [22:06]
Wayland Long
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, Vince. So the eight principles are our perspective, our copper box, our ethos, if you will, about how we think about modern leadership. So at the end of the day, you must help business leaders achieve their outcomes. And so that is first and foremost. And that being said, working with them is an opportunity to go for transformational change for the leader. And we know that when they achieve transformational change, when they become stronger leaders, not only in work, but also in different aspects of their life, there is a much more powerful cascading benefit and impact that is much more far reaching. And that's what we want to help them achieve. And so when we think about the APE principles, we have that in mind that it's not simply about business outcomes, but we are confident that when we help leaders to become more modern, to achieve transformation, inevitably that is going to have great impact on the businesses that they lead and they run. So when we think about the principles, the first, really, it does start with getting grounded in core purpose. And there's a lot of talk about purpose. There's a lot of talk about finding your purpose or finding your why. And in essence, it is where everything starts. Core purpose is understanding both your deeply held values, how you move in the world, what's important to you, what you'll put a stake in the ground for. It's also about the values and gifts that you bring to the world and that you want to use. We call them your superpowers. And the combination of your values and your gifts are very powerful. And when you're able to combine both of those and then channel that into your purpose, you really do become unstoppable. So I've seen that in my own life, being more to have the renewed energy to really drive my business and to have the impact on leaders. But I also see that in the lives of others, both my team members and also our clients. And the last thing I'll say about grounded in core, getting grounded in core purpose, is that we talk a lot about inspiration and leadership, but really to be inspirational, you Yourself have to be inspired. And so what is it in the world that inspires you, that gets you up in the morning and how you're able to bring that energy, which by the way, other people can see very quickly whether you have it or not. But as a leader, it is important to have. And so how are you bringing that? So therefore, those that you lead can also be inspired because hey, way Waylon's got a light, an energy, a spark that's being driven deep within. And that intrigues me. And as my leader, I know that he's operating from a place of real inspiration and real purpose. And I'm inspired by that. And secondly, Vince, it's interesting because I found time and again, and this is very consistent across organizations, is that leaders, certainly they've got big titles, right? We work with, we work with leaders that, you know, that have really big titles, really big roles. But they sometimes see leadership as a responsibility as opposed to a choice. And what I mean by that is, yeah, there are responsibilities to leadership, but leadership really starts with the choice. And so we talk about picking up the torch of leadership. And picking up the torch is a conscious choice. And there's two things to that. When you pick up the torch, you can certainly, and it's a great metaphor, you can light the way for others as a torch bearer, but at the same time, if you pick up the torch, there's. There is a bit of playing with fire and you can get burned. So you understand that as a leader there is going to be a certain level of personal discomfort. There's going to be sacrifice. If you're not sacrificing, then that there's an aspect of leadership, there's. That is about sacrifice. So I would argue if you're not sacrificing, then there's not full or true display of leadership on your part. Because if you didn't have to sacrifice, it'd be easy. And leadership isn't easy. And so picking up the torch, I think is really critically important. And making that decision for every leader is this first step. And I guess the last thing I'll say about picking up the torch is leadership can be scary. I found myself fearful in different situations and just how to clench my teeth and move forward. But I think one thing perhaps, maybe might be comforting to leaders, or at least a good reminder of what you're there for and why you're there, is that fear is a precursor to courage. So these two aspects of the human condition, they always appear in that order. You do not get courage without first Experiencing fear. And so as you understand that, when you understand yourself in those kinds of situations, you understand that you're probably in the places that you need to be making the decisions that you need to be making, and that's leadership.
- [27:08]
Vince Chen
Wow. As I was listening to you, two things really jumped out at me. First, you hit on this idea that leadership is a choice. That actually takes me back to my days at Chicago Booth. There was this professor, Linda Ginzel, who used to drill that idea into our heads constantly. Leadership is a choice, she would say. And hearing what you talk is clear. That idea really lines up with what you're describing. The other thing that struck me was your take on fear and courage. It reminds me of this animated movie, Inside Out. Have you seen it yourselves? They just released the sequel. The movie is all about human emotion. And there's this interesting dynamic between joy and sadness in the movie. At first they seem like totally opposites, right. But as the story unfolds, you start to see how they are actually connected. The big lesson is that you can't really appreciate joy if you've never experienced sadness. I see a similar principle in what you are saying about fear and courage. They are not as separate as we might think they are. Two sides of the same coin, each one giving meaning to the other. Does that resonate with what you're getting at?
- [28:52]
Wayland Long
Yeah. So it's. Vince, I love what you're sharing here. And actually, I need to catch that movie myself. I've been meaning to do that because I've been hearing such great things. And when it comes to these. These sort of like, these emotions that are juxtaposed or two sides of the same coin, it's a good lesson for us as leaders, generally speaking. You know, another one, as I was listening to you, that comes to mind is love, for example. Love that you have for somebody else, a deep love. And with deep love can also come profound grief. Right. When losing a loved one, let's say. And so these. These strong emotions, and the best of the emotions that you can experience in the world, such as joy, such as love, they do come with also other profound emotions that can also be at times devastating in one's life. Right. Understanding both of those things, accepting that and going seeking love out anyways, or wanting to be joyful, knowing that there'll be days when there will be profound sadness, and understanding and accepting that, I think is a bit of wisdom that. That we're talking about here in terms of modern leadership, because it's really an understanding of human nature. Both the human experience for oneself, but also for others.
- [30:14]
Vince Chen
Wayland has left us so much to reflect on and explore. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show. Leave us top rated reviews. Check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm this is Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.
- [30:56]
TurboTax Representative
This is a message from sponsor Intuit. TurboTax Taxes was getting frustrated by your forms. Now Taxes is uploading your forms with a Snap and a TurboTax expert will do your taxes for you. One who's backed by the latest tech which cross checks millions of data points for absolute accuracy. All of which makes it easy for you to get the most money back guaranteed. Get an Expert now on TurboTax.com, only available with TurboTax Live full service. See guarantee details@turbotax.com guarantees.