Podcast
CHINA-MENA
Hosted by Atlantic Council · EN
China in MENA Information Series Promotes Informed Discussion on Chinese Influence in the Middle East and informs US and MENA audiences in the policy and business communities about the nature of China’s outreach to the region.
11episodes
Episodes
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Unpacking Influence: China's Impact on US Strategy in the Middle East
Jun 17, 202400:42:40Tap to summarizeIn this episode of China-MENA, titled "China's Challenging Role in US Policy in MENA," join our host Jonathan Fulton featuring Dana Stroul, director of research and senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, as they explore China's evolving role and its impact on US policy in the Middle East and North Africa. This episode delves into global partnerships like the US-UAE-G42-Microsoft collaboration, the strategic significance of 5G technology and cloud computing, and the economic factors supporting Iran. Dana also discusses the China-Arab States Cooperation Forum and recent geopolitical events.Join us for an insightful discussion on the future of US and allied strategies in the region.TakeawaysUS vs. China in Regional InfluenceImportance of International OrderUS Strategic PartnershipsChina’s Regional ImpactQuotes"China, as the sole competitor shaping the global order, inspires us to uphold equity, cooperation, and shared prosperity." - Dana Stroul“The importance of the Rules-Based International Order lies in preventing unilateral changes or use of force to alter recognized boundaries" - Dana StroulFeatured in the EpisodeDana StroulResearch Director, The Washington Institute for Near East PolicyGuest LinkedIn: Dana Stroul | LinkedInJonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Assistant Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction03:51 - Navigating Biden's China Challenge in the Middle East08:46 - Safeguarding Strategic Partnerships Amidst China's Rise11:41 - Exploring China's Economic Development15:00 - Contrasting US and China Infrastructure Support20:19 - Assessing China's Trade Influence22:23 - Impact of the International Order on Gulf Economies24:30 - Insights from the China-Arab States Cooperation Forum29:18 - China's Prioritization of its Immediate Periphery34:04 - Cooperation and Countering Iran's Influence38:19 - Iran's Behavior Changes and China's Role39:51 - Evading Sanctions: Iran, Russia, and China42:22 - Outro
Transcribe →From the Red Sea to the Indo-Pacific: Expanding Cooperation Between the Gulf and Asia
Jun 6, 202400:46:18Tap to summarizeIn this episode of China-MENA, titled “From the Red Sea to the Indo-Pacific: Expanding Cooperation Between the Gulf and Asia," host Jonathan Fulton engages in a compelling conversation with Dr. Hasan Alhasan, a senior fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. They discuss China's role in Saudi Arabia's energy sectors, the impact of Indian and Chinese diasporas in the UAE, and India's naval presence in the Gulf. Dr. Alhasan also explores the Gulf States' views on the Indo-Pacific, defense and geoeconomic priorities, and the influence of the US, China, and India on Gulf alliances.Join us to understand how Gulf-Asia cooperation addresses future challenges and opportunities, from the Red Sea to the Indo-Pacific and beyond.TakeawaysChinese Involvement in the GulfRegional Geopolitical TensionsIndo-Pacific and Global Power DynamicsQuotes“'A realm where defense and geoeconomics distinctively part ways, shaping unique alliances and rivalries.” - Dr. Hasan Alhasan“The Gulf States perceive the varied and vibrant Indo-Pacific through the distinct lens of their own interests, seizing each opportunity uniquely.” - Dr. Hasan AlhasanFeatured in the EpisodeDr. Hasan AlhasanSenior Fellow for Middle East Policy at the IISSGuest LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hasan-t-alhasanGuest Website: Dr Hasan AlhasanJonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Assistant Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction01:53 - Exploring Gulf-Asia Economic Ties.04:07 - Gulf States' Quest for Global Indispensability.07:41 - Saudi Arabia's Drive for Economic Influence.11:48 - India's Leadership in the Global South.14:49 - Gulf States' Strategic Engagements with China, India.18:28 - India's Naval Strategy and Evacuations.23:02 - Gulf States' Distanced Relationship with Asia.27:11 - Regional Competition and Strategic Shifts.31:34- India Expands Indo-Pacific Framework.35:43 - Assessing Indo-Pacific's Impact on Gulf Security.40:43 - Geoeconomics and Alliance Dynamics.43:43 - Gulf States Prefer US AI, Diverse Partnerships.45:58 - OutroPowered by Heartcast Media
Transcribe →The View from New Delhi: Can IMEC rival China’s Belt and Road?
May 14, 202400:32:12Tap to summarizeIn this episode of China-MENA titled “The View from New Delhi: Can IMEC rival China’s Belt and Road?”, our host Jonathan Fulton and guests Ambassador Navdeep Suri and expert Kabir Taneja explore the India, Middle East, Europe Economic Corridor (IMEC) and its ties to China's Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). We unravel India's significant strategic interests in the Middle East and how these regions perceive India's expanded role in driving economic prosperity and enhancing regional security. Join us for an enlightening conversation that bridges continents and cultures on the China MENA podcast.TakeawaysIndia, Middle East, Europe Economic Corridor (IMEC)India's Strategic Interests in the Middle EastRegional Dynamics and Diplomatic EngagementsQuotes“IMEC propels us towards future-proof economies, blending technology and energy integration.” - Navdeep Suri "The geopolitical dynamics of the Middle East offer both a landscape of opportunities and a complex set of challenges for India."- Kabir Taneja Featured in the EpisodeNavdeep SuriFormer Ambassador of India to UAE & Egypt, High Commissioner to AustraliaGuest LinkedIn: https://in.linkedin.com/in/navdeep-suri-2930452bGuest Website: Navdeep SuriKabir TanejaFellow Strategic Studies Program, Observer Research FoundationGuest LinkedIn: https://in.linkedin.com/in/kabirtanejaJonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Assistant Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction01:39 - Geopolitical and Geoeconomic Considerations03:16 - Challenges and Ongoing Interest07:17 - IMEC's Focus on Technology in Transportation11:28 - Economic Growth in Gulf Linked to India14:11 - Growing Strategic Relationships in UAE, Saudi Arabia17:55 - Exploring Potential Funding Sources19:11 - Positive Momentum in the Region25:12 - India's Role in Global Supply Chains29:51 - Risk Distribution and US-China Contest31:11 - Outro
Transcribe →China vs. IMEC: the Minilateral Movement in the Middle East
Apr 17, 202400:43:43Tap to summarizeIn this episode, China vs the IMEC Corridor in the Middle East, Dr. Jean-Loup Samaan from the Middle East Institute of the National University of Singapore joins to discuss minilateral initiatives' impacts in the region. Explore the ongoing significance of the International Maritime Exercise (IMEC), Israel's post-Gaza war role, and complexities of regional dynamics. Unpack France's strategic trilateral partnership with the UAE and India to navigate tensions with China. Join us for a deep dive into these shifts, evaluating their implications on alliances and power balance in the Middle East on China-Mena.Takeaways:International Maritime Exercise Initiative (IMEC) and Geopolitical ContextFrance's Strategic Involvement in IMECUncertainties Surrounding IMECQuotes"The benefit of mini laterals is creating new discussion mechanisms among countries, crucial in regions like the Middle East lacking strong security frameworks."-Jean-Loup Samaan“The introduction of new methods brings hope and progress in the absence of a strong security structure.."-Jean-Loup SamaanFeatured in the EpisodeDr. Jean-Loup SamaanLinkedin: https://sg.linkedin.com/in/jean-loup-samaan-512a782Website: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/expert/jean-loup-samaan/Jonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Associate Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction00:23 - Exploring Middle East Mini Laterals05:41 - Analyzing the US-led I2U2 Initiative06:58 - Middle Eastern Caution Towards a New Quad11:28 - Research Challenges in a Changing Middle East15:04 - Jordan's Vital Role in Regional Stability18:37 - Unpacking China's Regional Influence23:35 - Shifting Foreign Policies Amid US-China Competition26:31 - Innovations in Security via Mini Laterals30:08 - Insights on Middle Eastern Politics and China's Responses35:28 - UAE and India: Infrastructural Investments and Rebranding38:27 - Issues with IMEC Format and Financing Concerns40:24 - Uncertainties Surrounding Israel's Role43:12 - Outro
Transcribe →The Political Thought of Xi Jinping and its Impact on MENA
Apr 8, 202400:48:16Tap to summarizeJoin us on China-Mena as we delve into Xi Jinping's political philosophy and its effects on the Middle East and North Africa. Discover Xi's global vision, autocratic alliances, and conflicts with leaders like India's Modi. With expert insights from Steve Zhang, we'll unravel Xi Jinping Thought, explore the Belt and Road Initiative, and China's diplomatic strategies. Delve into power dynamics, internal party debates, and Xi Jinping's quest for superpower status, exploring its impact on the MENA region.Takeaways:Xi Jinping's Vision versus Other Global South LeadersChina's Redefinition of International OrderThe Ideology of Xi Jinping ThoughtGlobal Diplomacy and Foreign Policy under Xi JinpingBelt and Road Initiative and Global South RelationsQuotes"Let's aim to radiate beauty, not just for ourselves but for the Global South and the world. - Steve Tsang"Embrace and uphold Xi's leadership and political thought, fostering unity and determination, even in discomfort." - Steve TsangFeatured in the EpisodeSteve TsangDirector of the SOAS China InstituteLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-tsang-3b937012/Website: https://www.soas.ac.uk/about/steve-tsangJonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Associate Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction04:17 - China's political evolution under Mao and beyond.09:16 - Evolving Chinese economic system: state vs private.12:19 - Xi Jinping requires widespread support for his ideology.14:39 - Xi Jinping's vision: unity, control, national rejuvenation.21:32 - Xi Jinping aims to reshape global power dynamics.24:07 - China leading democratization of international order, global South.29:58 - Overview of China's global engagement and state-centric approach.34:03 - Global South: diverse, India-China tension, leadership struggle.39:15 - Navigating Soft Power and Wolf Warrior Diplomacy Under Xi Jinping44:58 - Steering China's Assertive Stance and Western Relations49:10 - Outro
Transcribe →China's Law of the Sea in the Middle East
Mar 6, 202400:48:15Tap to summarizeJoin us as we dive deep into China's maritime dynamics with Isaac B. Kardon, a top expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Isaac's expertise in maritime disputes, global port development, and PLA activities sheds light on China's evolving role in shaping international waters.Discover Isaac's groundbreaking book on China's maritime strategies and delve into his research on China's impact beyond its shores. Uncover China's ambitions in global waters, from deep-sea mining to infrastructure development with dual implications.Tune in for an engaging discussion on China's maritime might and its implications for the global order.Takeaways:China's Maritime ExpansionGlobal Maritime StrategyMaritime Capabilities and International Maritime OrderNaval Presence in the Middle EastCommercial Ports and Industrial ParksGeopolitical ImplicationsQuotes"The power differentials have become significantly important. It has made your ability to resort to international law as a regional actor less effective and more diluted." - Isaac B. Kardon"China is heavily invested in transportation infrastructure due to its economic priorities as the world's largest trading nation."-Isaac B. KardonFeatured in the EpisodeIsaac B. KardonSenior Fellow For China Studies At The Carnegie Endowment For International PeaceLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isaac-b-kardon-7ba90416/Website: https://www.isaacbkardon.com/Jonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Associate Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction07:08 - Disrupting Norms: China's Impact on the International Maritime Order11:17 - Probing Regional Responses to China's13:26 - Delving into China's Emphasis on Sovereignty Concerns18:42 - Shifting Tides: Increasing PLA Deployments and Global Dynamics20:14 - Navigating Challenges: China's Maritime Interests and Complexities24:58 - The Precarious Balance: China's Posture Changes and Potential Conflicts28:05 - Strategic Stronghold: Djibouti's Significance in Chinese Diplomacy30:25 - Bridging the Divide: Chinese Perspectives on Overseas Actions34:56 - Anticipating Support: Political and Security Pathways for China39:50 - Economic Priorities: Balancing Development and Security in China44:05 - Strategic Insights: Evaluating Military Missions and Facilities45:27 - Tactical Transactions: Chinese Military Utilization of Commercial Spaces47:49 - Outro
Transcribe →Middle East Instability: A Chinese Perspective to the Latest Flashpoint
Feb 20, 202400:44:53Tap to summarizeWelcome back to the China-Mena podcast! In today's episode, titled "Middle East Instability: A Chinese Perspective," our host Jonathan Fulton and guest Chuchu Zhang explore China's evolving role in the region. They discuss recent events, including the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and China's growing presence, and how these shape China's approach to the Middle East. Gain valuable insights into the complex geopolitical landscape and global power dynamics. Get ready for a thought-provoking discussion!TakeawaysChinese View of Palestinian-Israeli ConflictTesting US Hegemony in the Middle EastOverlapping Interests with the United StatesMiddle Eastern Actors' Diversification of PartnershipsConcerns About Regional Stability and ConflictQuotes"The reconciliation between Saudi Arabia and Iran reminds us that sectarian confrontation in the region is not inevitable, transcending the need to highlight China's greatness." - Chuchu Zhang"There are common interests promoting peace, but it's not a comprehensive solution to all problems. Yet, there is another perspective on promoting peace through development." - Chuchu ZhangFeatured in the EpisodeChuchu ZhangAssociate Professor of International Relations in the School of International Relations and Public Affairs at Fudan UniversityJonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Associate Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction00:26 - Analyzing China's Role in the Middle East - Insights from an Expert04:28 - China's Collaboration in Belt and Road Development08:38 - Exploring China's Growing Involvement in Middle Eastern Affairs12:44 - Spotlight on Current Middle East-China Relations16:01 - The Rising Importance of the Middle East18:42 - Examining US-Israel Goals, China's Concerns, and Global Impact20:46 - Chinese Leaders' Perspectives on a US-Centered Middle East24:07 - Unpacking China's Presence in the Middle East and Its Implications27:44 - Proxy Warfare, Non-State Actors, and China's Dilemma Summarized30:57 - Major Powers' Engagement with Armed Groups35:26 - China's Preference for Bilateral Relations in the Middle East39:58 - Debating the Interpretation of China's Regional Cooperation Proposal41:19 - Seeking Flexibility: China's and Middle East's Mutual Goal44:25 - Outro
Transcribe →Domestic Drivers of China's Foreign Policy in MENA
Feb 7, 202400:46:47Tap to summarizeWelcome to the China-Mena podcast, where we explore China's foreign policy in the Middle East and North Africa. In this episode, host Jonathan Fulton and guest Kerry Brown discuss the domestic drivers shaping China's international engagements. They unravel the complexities of China's internal landscape, including the middle class aspirations and the impact of Xi Jinping's leadership. They also analyze China's growing influence in the Middle East, shedding light on its diplomatic decision-making and potential implications for the region. Join us for a thought-provoking exploration of China's foreign policy strategy and domestic underpinnings.TakeawaysChina's Domestic Drivers of Foreign Policy in MENAChina's Core Interests and Soft Power Projection in MENAChina's Global Role and Soft Power ChallengesChina's Influence in the Middle East and Domestic Influences on Foreign PolicyQuotes"It's strange how China tries to change public opinion while facing an image problem. People love their cuisine and kung fu, but the political system makes it challenging for them to win hearts."- Kerry Brown"Understanding China is complex, but it's crucial to find a balanced perspective in Western discourse."- Kerry BrownFeatured in the EpisodeKerry BrownProfessor of Chinese Studies, and Director,Lau China Institute, King's College, LondonLinkedin: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/kerrybrownWebsite: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/kerry-brownJonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Associate Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction04:47 - Concerns about leadership future raised by Premier's performance08:23 - China's passive stance in world affairs11:20 - Impact of changes in US leadership on China's strategy15:22 - Reshuffling of China's internal priorities during the Trump presidency18:26 - Chinese middle class's interest in international relations21:05 - Summary of Evan Osnos' article on Chinese concerns25:31 - Intrigue within the party and navigating power dynamics27:35 - China's core interests defined as stability with internal link31:51 - China's focus on regional stability and development36:36 - China's dominance reshaping the world with little commonality39:45 - Comparison of envy towards South Korean culture and China43:10 - China's crucial role in the Middle East45:27 - Taiwan's Unresolved Status: A Ticking Time Bomb46:21 - Conclusion
Transcribe →China's Role and Impact on MENA's Air Domain
Jan 10, 202400:52:38Tap to summarizeWelcome to the China-MENA podcast. In this episode, host Jonathan Fulton discusses China's influence on the air domain in the Middle East and North Africa with guests Dr. Assaf Heller and Sarah-Masha Fainberg. They explore potential biases in analyzing China's strategy, its limited security role, concerns about its presence, and its strategic objectives in the region. Gain insights into the implications of China's expanding presence and its effects on military capabilities. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation on this important topic.TakeawaysPresence in the MENA RegionImplications on the Air Domain and Military CapabilitiesConcerns about Chinese Exports and Technology TransfersChinese Technology Transfers and Impact on the Air DomainUnderstanding China's Presence in the RegionQuotes"The Chinese influence in the Middle East should not be overlooked. It encompasses both strategic and operational impact, and we must consider it seriously."- Dr. Assaf Heller"China seeks to restore and preserve its position as a global power through a national rejuvenation journey." - Sarah-Masha FainbergFeatured in the EpisodeDr. Assaf HellerColonel ReservesLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/assaf-heller-242323137/Sarah-Masha FainbergLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-masha-fainberg-phd-2602821a9/Jonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Associate Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction03:53 - Sophisticated Weapon Systems: Development and Transfer by China07:54 - Balancing China's Strategic Objectives: The Key Challenge13:42 - Shifting Stance: China's Evolving Role in the Middle East17:03 - Arab and Jewish Political Influence: Examining China's Perspective20:59 - Seeking an Unbiased Operational Perspective: Hope of Analysts22:34 - Potential Confrontation and Implications: Israel-China Dynamics28:08 - Military-Civil Fusion Concerns: Exploring the Chinese MCF Concept31:42 - Technology and Arms Exports: Concerns over China's Influence35:47 - Beto Satellites and Dual Technology Purpose: China's Approach36:49 - Cooperation Agreements: Lack of Specific and Quantifiable Details42:41 - Impact on Regional Security: Discussing China's Technological Influence44:55 - Forecasting Advanced Technology and Arms Transfers by China47:23 - Seizing Opportunities: China's Role in the Middle East52:10 - Conclusion
Transcribe →Performative or Substantive Engagement? China & Russia in the Middle East
Dec 21, 202300:46:50Tap to summarizeIn this episode of China-Mena titled "Performative or Substantive Engagement? China & Russia in the Middle East," our host Jonathan Fulton and guests Dr. Li-Chen Sim and Mark Katz explore the growing collaboration between China and Russia and its impact on the Middle East. We unravel the complexities of Sino-Russian engagement in the region, discussing Russia's interests, China's role, and the influence of the Ukraine war. Join us as we navigate the evolving geopolitical landscape of this crucial region.TakeawaysChina-Russia Collaboration in the Middle EastChina's Activities and Interests in the Middle EastPerceptions of Great Power Competition and Influence in the Middle EastQuotes"There is room for negotiation and cooperation between the US and China, transcending any cold war-like conflict." - Mark Katz"Together, as a force multiplier, they amplify their interests and narratives in the Middle East, projecting greater collective power and influence."- Dr. Li-Chen SimFeatured in the EpisodeDr. Li-Chen SimPolitical Scientist At Khalifa University Abu Dhabi United United Arab EmiratesLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/li-chen-sim-3098035a/Mark KatzProfessor of Government and Politics, George Mason University--Schar School of Policy and GovernmentLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-n-katz-0707b213/Jonathan FultonNonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Associate Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabihttps://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414bhttps://twitter.com/jonathandfultonChapters00:00 - Introduction03:13 - Russian Weaponry and Reactor Sales: Driving Middle East Cooperation10:01 - Amplifying Influence through Media Collaboration: The Force Multiplier13:42 - Middle East's Perspective: Russia as Muscle, China as Financial Power16:07 - Russia's Challenges as a Weapon Supplier: The Impact of Ukraine19:06 - Changing Power Dynamics: China's Role in the Gaza Conflict23:24 - China's Benefits from Russia's Non-Compliance with OPEC28:14 - Prospects for Saudi Nuclear Energy Cooperation: A Realistic Outlook30:08 - Middle Easterners' Support for Russian Influence in 201532:32 - US Concerns and Attention-Seeking in Response to Russia's Actions38:48 - Acting with Diplomatic Considerations: Weighing Repercussions42:08 - Inevitable Cooperation: China, Russia, and the Middle East44:26 - Exploring Cooperation: Russia, Ukraine, West, and the Middle East46:23 - Outro
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