A (3:40)

Yeah, and I think that's kind of the point of today, if you think about, okay, well, maybe I don't remember a specific episode, but there are ways in which my life is different or there are ways that I think about something in a different way. And today we want to just highlight those, because one way we can look back on what happened in the previous year is to say, well, how is my life different?

B (4:02)

Love it. All right, Ginger, why don't you lead off, since this was your brainchild.

A (4:09)

Okay. All right, I'll start with the easy one, which was Ron, Ron Babcock, who, when he was on the show, we talked a lot about budgeting. And I've been thinking about it because it was at the beginning of the year, and I had said, hey, this is the year for me. I'm going to really get into budgeting. And I did. I started to track everything, and I have learned some things, and I still have some more things to learn. But the thing that I remember from that interview was Ron talking about when his child was little and he would go out in the mornings and get a coffee, and he'd have the stroller, and he'd give his wife a minute. And of course, every day, going out to get coffee eventually becomes a tremendous expense in the budget. And the reason I remember it is he was saying, I wouldn't trade that for anything. And I think about that often because, you know, it's connected to this idea of the seasons of life. But it also is a way to sort of pull back and say, well, what are those things that I'm not going to regret? And I kind of have a similar story in terms of when my child was small and things were hard, as things often are. And I do remember thinking to myself, like, 50 year old ginger wants you to treat yourself. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. You know, and having a realization for the things that I am purchasing now are not things I'm going to need to purchase in two years because I'm not going to have the same needs, I'm not going to have the same stresses. And I do think that it's so important when we talk about, like dialing in your budget to also be thinking about what is most important at this time in my life.

B (5:48)

Yeah, yeah. The seasons of life are important. And I think it's very important to understand that spending is okay. Right, Right. I think there's. Sometimes we beat ourselves up because we're the frugal community, or this is the caricature, or the miserly might be the caricature. I think we are frugal, by and large, and that's fine. I embrace that term. But spending is okay, too. And a life devoid of spending is not a happy and successful life. So this is not a race to some number on a spreadsheet. And I think that's what I've always tried to get across, is it really is okay to spend on what you value. But let's be entirely clear, you have to make decisions. Right. We live in a world of finite resources. Obviously, if we all were making millions of dollars, this would be moot. We wouldn't have this podcast. We wouldn't be talking about it. We'd all be rolling in our money. So we have constraints. We do. So we have to make choices. And one of those choices is we have to save a good bit of money to ever reach financial independence ever. Even by 70 or 80. Right. Just by its very definition. You have to save, so it's important. But Ginger, I agree with you. There are things that are really important, maybe as a through line throughout your life that you want to spend on, but also in different times. Like Ron was saying, like, yeah, did he have to buy that coffee on these stroller rides? No, he didn't. You could make the argument, but. And I don't remember precisely the. Since we didn't prepare for this in that regard, but I. So I didn't go back and listen to exactly what he said. But could he have walked his child without the coffee? Yeah, of course. And saved the whatever, three, five, six bucks each time or I think he lives in California, so maybe more than that. But was that a fun part of it? And did he regret any of those times or the money he spent? No, of course not. So that's not something you should ever look back on and say, oh, I should have saved those $78 each month. Like, who the heck cares?

A (7:44)

Yeah, I said it was helpful for me during that time to kind of look to the future and say, well, what would 50 year old ginger think or want for you? What do you think if I kind of turn that question and I say, so you're 46.

B (7:59)

46, yeah.

A (8:00)

Is there anything that you wish 36 year old Brad had spent money on that he was maybe too frugal about?

B (8:08)

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, maybe. I mean, I suspect definitely yes is the answer. But it's hard to think right off hand. I'm not sure when I started really focusing on my health and fitness. It probably was right around that time. It could have been slightly before. So maybe we'll say my 30 year old self, I was a little overweight. I didn't really focus on the food I put into my body. I didn't really focus on my health and fitness. I didn't do anything like that. And now this is a real big focus of my life because I want to live a really long and healthy life and I spend a decent bit of money every single month on my health and fitness and I don't think twice about it. So yeah, I mean that is a massive one. I think when you have young children, it's easy to get lost in those young children and not make time for yourself or for young, your friends, family, significant others. I think it's very, very easy to get lost in those children thinking you're doing the right thing. And it is wonderful. It's a privilege obviously, but I suspect I neglected all those other relationships and myself during those early years. So I probably would have spent more money and time and effort focusing on other relationships other than just myopically focused on my kids. So yeah, again, that's not a, not a bad thing. Very, very fortunate that I got to spend all that time. But I think out of balance might have been the way to Put it. And I suspect that would have shown up in my spending as well.

A (9:40)

Yeah. Okay, what's something you remembered?

B (9:43)

Yeah, there's so many. I'm not doing this in any order, but something that just jumped out to me was people in the FI community are doing amazing things. And Ryan Brennan, you're gonna have to be more specific. Yeah, that's a little vague. So Ryan Brennan came on the podcast in episode 548 to talk about the FI Service Corps and how he's taken the idea of having these FI meetups where we see campfi and all sorts of different in real life get togethers and put it around a service project. And I just think that's. That was a really great idea. I mean, we have such a wonderful community of people who have time, resources, who have financial resources, intelligence skills, etc. Why not do something like this? People are crying out to do incredible things. And I just, I thought that was awesome.

A (10:34)

Yeah.

B (10:34)

You know, that's but one example, of course. Like, then down to Stephen Boyer in Warner Robbins, Georgia. Stephen is the creator of Campfire. He saw his co housing community come to real life fruition this year and it's been amazing to see. This is something he planned. I think it was way back in 2018. And in fact, like, my two rental properties that I've talked about in Georgia were part of this community in terms of, hey, let's accumulate a bunch of these properties and maybe someday we can get people to move down and create an actual FI community. And it actually, it really happened in 2025. I sold my two properties to people who moved down there. And it's just, again, there's so many cool things happening in the FI community. These are but two examples. And I just really wanted to highlight them.

A (11:20)

Oh, man. When I was talking about Frank's rule about travel and how like, I like rules, it made me think about, I read somewhere like, or heard someone, I don't even remember the source of it, but they were talking about generosity and how when you have an urge to give and that you should do it immediately because you will talk yourself out of it. And I want to be a more generous person. So that kind of stuck with me. And that's something that I have tried to do, which is like, that's not something that I want to have a lot of back and forth about. And so when you said that about the FI service, I remember being really inspired by this episode and I instantly donated. Right. And it's that example of I wouldn't have if I had been like, oh, well, is this really where I want my give money to go, you know, this month? Or I would have forgot about it. And so that was one of those rules that I think is helpful or.

B (12:16)

Guidelines that is really cool. Yeah. And I know we had that episode way this was not in 2025, but we had episode 483 was effective giving strategies for FI, which I thought was a really awesome one. And Rebecca from that episode, who has a a website called yieldandspread.org actually got in touch with me recently to talk about something with, I think it's a philanthropy she called the Philanthropy Pledge. And yeah, she was just on the Money with Katie show, so that's something if anybody wants to listen to. She's a really great guest and I'm going to definitely try to have her back on the podcast here shortly. But yeah, there's lots of cool things. Again, just people doing neat things in the fight community. You see it all the time and it's really inspiring.

A (13:02)

Yeah.

B (13:03)

All right, Ginger, what's next?

A (13:04)

I'm thinking about a lot of what I took from interviews that I did this year, and I think a lot of them are about mindset and sort of made me think about something differently. And that change in thinking has really held. So one of them was Anne from Anchorage, who we talked a lot about her big move from her big family house, downsizing, moved to a different state, started her five life. And she I wanted to talk to her about it because I feel so attached to my house and I feel so attached to my things. And I was saying, well, how did you. How are you able to walk away from those things and be feeling good? And she had said. And I think I either had this idea in my head or I said it out loud, but I was thinking, I have all of these great memories of my child being little in the backyard and like watching him chase a chicken with an egg, trying to give it back to her. And I just like, how could I. How could I leave this house? And she said, you already don't have that. It's already gone. And that really struck me and stuck with me of like, you are thinking you're going to have to grieve this thing when you leave. But the truth is you already have what you're going to have from that, which is the memory. And so that has helped me. I haven't moved since then, but both in just kind of removing my unhealthy attachment to the house maybe, but also just to things in general when I'M like, what I'm grieving is a symbol or a memory, and to recognize those are things that I can keep.

B (14:44)

Yeah, yeah. You can keep them where it matters most, in your memory and in your mind and in your heart. Right. And it's not the actual tangible thing. Those four walls will not bring back that memory. The memory is in your brain, and that's a beautiful thing. So, yeah, I mean, this is, I think, by virtue of me moving a couple times in the last couple years and really moving towards much more minimalist life, I've really tried to break that attachment with things. And I just found that it's taken a real load off my shoulders. I just don't. I don't think about things anymore at all. And I try not to accumulate anything. I know this always piques your interest.

A (15:24)

Was it hard?

B (15:25)

No. Yeah. I don't mean to say that so flippantly. It honestly, it wasn't hard. I mean, I think I have a couple of boxes of like, keepsakes, I call them.

A (15:35)

Yeah.

B (15:35)

But even them, I think about a lot of the things that are tangible and I can just digitize them. I think a lot of this stuff, I'm actually, that's my next step. And it's not that there's some end state. The end state is not, I own a fork and a plate and, you know, two outfits and that's it. Like, there's no end state here. It's. It's just more like, what do I need? What do I need around me? What if this stuff actually works and works for me? And I'm just finding as I've had some of these quote unquote keepsakes for decades and I never look at them. Like, could I just digitize them for the next time that I do look at them 10 years from now? And I don't know, it's just. I find this sense of satisfaction and ease when I'm able to donate things. Like, for instance, we had a choose of a local case study meetup here in Richmond about a month ago. And the admin Ron mentioned, oh, bring some books that you have lying around. We'll. We'll do a book swap to everybody. And I took it as this opportunity of like, oh, goodness, I can give away like a couple dozen books. So I. I grabbed my entire bookshelf because I'm like, realistically, these are sitting here as trophies. Right. If we're honest with ourselves, that's what our bookshelves are or our libraries and our houses, they are trophies of. Look at how Smart. I am. Or, oh, like, look at what I read. If you're honest with yourself, you're never going to read them again. And you certainly could always grab it from the library. And I, believe me, I'm as big a book fan as they come. But if we're all intellectually honest, that's what it is, Brad.

A (17:04)

I'm gonna read it again.

B (17:06)

Ginger. Well, for the five books that you're gonna read again, because, I mean, that's another sobering thing. This is similar to, I know you're joking, but, like, that article, the tail end that I always talk about from the website. Wait, but why? Where they visualize a lifetime in boxes. And it's the sobering thing of, by the time your child is 18 years old, you've spent about 90% of the time you'll have ever spent with them, which is incredibly sobering and sad if you really think about it. But, like, I am now, again, not in a negative or morbid way, but I'm looking at my lifespan in terms of, oh, wow, how many more times am I going to do this? Or for books, like, if you read a book a week with, let's be clear, most people are not reading 52 books each year, Right? But you read a book a week. I've got, what, maybe 40 years left? So I have 2,000 more books left in me. That's it. Like, am I really going to reread these 300 books again when I only have 2000 books left in me? Like, that doesn't make any sense. So it's a wild mental construct to think that way, but I think it's healthy instead of morbid. And that was a perfect example of, hey, I've got these wonderful books. I just brought everything I had. I brought a couple dozen books, and they all got scooped up, and it was great.

A (18:21)

Yeah, I think, I mean, I have a slightly different perspective on the book thing. You're like, oh, you were joking. I was not joking.

B (18:27)

Okay, tell me.

A (18:29)

And I think part of this is just like, being a different kind of person, and part of it is maybe about that attachment to things, but sometimes it's hard for me. Like, my husband says exactly what you said, which is, I can get it at the library. Right? But then it won't be my copy. It won't be my copy that I wrote in, that I underlined things in that I, like, had this emotional experience with, and that's the copy that I want to have in my house. That's the copy that I want to pick up again. But I take your point that if you get real with how often are you going to pick up that book or how fully are you going to re engage with that book, then I'm probably really overestimating that. And I have thought about the book thing because it freaks me out too. The quantity thing where you're like, oh, I don't like this book. Should I keep going? I only have this many left.

B (19:22)

Life is too short to read books that you don't like. I'm in that. I put down books all the time at this point and I'm a voracious reader, let's be clear. But like, I have no qualms whatsoever with just putting a book down.

A (19:33)

Oh my gosh. I, I, and we're getting off topic, but I struggle with that because on the one hand I think you're correct. I think that's the right way to live. But then I also worry that just like, as a culture, we're like, oh, this thing isn't exactly how I want it to be or I'm not immediately engaged or where there could be some value in continuing. And so I think I probably take that too far.

B (19:56)

But I, there's no right or wrong though, Ginger. That's the cool thing about all of this stuff. It's not like my way's right or your way is right. It's we all fall in some spectrum and that's what's really great.

A (20:06)

We might be right on that one.

B (20:08)

I don't know.

A (20:08)

I don't know.

B (20:09)

All right, so I'm going to pick up on my next one. So we had an interesting year with the supposed middle class trap, which we talked about on a bunch of episodes. Our friends Scott and Mindy over at Biggerpockets Money talked about this a number of times early in the year, I think even late 2024. And when it came to my attention, I just really, I had a visceral reaction to this because it was, it was being propagated as if it were this horrible thing like your money stuck in your 401ks and your houses. And you know, the implicit, and I'm not saying necessarily that Scott and Mindy were saying this, but like, the implicit implication was like, fi doesn't work because there were all of these weird conflated things like people aren't going to be able to sell their assets. It was, it just kept spinning out of control. And it just seems so fear based to me. And I just, I think we have spent the last nine plus years here at Choose a virtual. Trying to explain how this phi path is this absolute superpower. And I believe that with every fiber of my being. And of course, if I was presented with viable information that proved otherwise, I'm hopefully intellectually honest enough that I believe to change and be open minded to that. But I've yet to see it and I just, I hate to see when people are doing something that is an almost unmitigated good, which is saving money, trying to max out or benefit from pre tax vehicles which supposedly quote, unquote, are trapping their money. But yet we've shown dozens of times with world class experts how you can access this money early at essentially a 0% effective tax rate or very low, just a couple of percentage points of tax. Like we have found these strategies to win at life and then to see people just get afraid that for some reason, but based on no fact other than a YouTube poll, that people are going to have a hard time selling their assets or they feel trapped. And then to render the entire FI concept as if it doesn't work was just, it was just a bridge too far for me. So I know I received just a ton of feedback, positive feedback from our community. Just saying thank you for being so outspoken about this and making me feel better, frankly, that I don't have to fear about this. This is what winning looks like. This supposed BS trap that other people are peddling is actually what winning is. And we've proven it over and over and over again. And episode 553 I did with Cody Garrett was fantastic. And it was basically putting to bed the nonsense of this middle class trap. And another great episode was episode 560 with Marla, which was showing somebody who is really living off the 4% rule. She is selling assets and living off of the 4% rule. I think that's another thing that people are afraid about. And let's also be clear, I'm not trying to minimize fear because I think the psychological side of FI is very important and it's very real. And I'm not trying to downplay that. So I know that these fears exist. And some people are worried. Like, I've been a saver my entire adult life. How am I going to sell my assets? And my response was, okay, you have won the game, right? Like, you've done this, Ginger. You've done this so well. Are you going to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory like the exact opposite thing you're supposed to do, just because it's a little uncomfortable for five minutes when all you have to do is log into your brokerage account and experience just a couple of minutes, five minutes of discomfort when you log in and you click sell for that first time. Like that is going to be difficult. I understand that. Psychologically that's going to be difficult. But you're an adult and you do hard things. And that's just the deal. You deal with hard things. We have to. We. We are human beings. We deal with hard things all the time. And to just capitulate and say, oh, this doesn't work because you're going to be uncomfortable for a few minutes is just. I mean, frankly, it's pathetic. It is not the way to live. And I just can't stand for that. Like, it makes me still viscerally angry to think about this. I mean, it's unbelievable. So it was nice to see Marla in episode 560 as an example of somebody who is doing this. And there are tons of examples. We just log in, we hit sell, and we go on with our merry way knowing that we've won the game.

A (24:36)

I'm not surprised that you brought this up as a moment that you remembered from the year of doing episodes because you were so emotionally invested, because you were so riled up by it. And of course that is like part of what encodes like as a memory is that emotional experience. I remember one kind of emotional moment for me was in 5:50 with Megan Combs. The reason that it was emotional for me is because she kind of turned the table and she started asking me some questions. And I love asking other people questions, but I do not love being on the other end. So I remember just kind of panicking as she started to ask me questions. But it was really useful because she had said we were talking about the concept of the mini retirement and I had this quick answer for her where I was like, oh, that's not doable for me. I've thought about it. I have a kid. This wouldn't work. And the reason I had such a quick answer is because I really had thought about it. It is something I'm interested in. But then she kind of pushed back a little. So it got me thinking. After we had finished recording, I really did kind of sit down, think, like, why was I so quick to dismiss this idea? And if I really look at my life, this idea that this is not available to me is not true, right? It's just that it's a little bit more complicated. And then that kind of settled in my soul a little bit and I just kind of kept touching it right Like I kept thinking about it to the extent that now I have a different high yield savings account that I'm putting into every month for my mini retirement that I'm going to take in four years.

B (26:25)

Wow.

A (26:25)

And it was because she had asked that question that I had already asked myself. But there's something about like having someone else push you just a little bit or hearing someone else talk about like how they think about it that can really, if you, if you let it right. Can really change your mind. She changed my mind about it, yes.

B (26:45)

And that pushback is important. I love how you said the idea that this isn't possible just isn't true. I think. I don't know if I got every word just right there, but I tried to quickly jot that down. But yeah, like it's so easy to dismiss things. It really is as, oh, that's for somebody else. And I don't know what that is. If we're just sometimes closed minded, if it seems a bridge too far, if we don't believe we can do it.

A (27:10)

Well, that's the thing. I think it's about conflating. It's about we kind of very quickly are confusing a belief for a fact. And so once we have to like recognize, oh, this is a belief that I have, here's what's underneath those beliefs. Like what would it actually take for this to be true or not true. And once we actually start kind of digging into that, then you have something you can work with. But if it's just, well, this is my belief, this isn't for someone with my kind of job. The end. And we move on too quickly.

B (27:45)

Yeah. Which is the hard part about beliefs in general. Right. It's easy to just, I mean facts don't have anything to do with beliefs. Right. So when you conflate them. Yeah, that is a very slippery slope mentally. And yeah, I want to go back to the pushback, but this reminds me of episode 573, three where we had Jasper Leon to talk about cognitive behavioral tools for Phi. And it reminded me like he said something to the effect of like, you should challenge and replace unhelpful thoughts with balanced perspectives. And the book that he mentioned, the Happiness Trap, is one that I actually went out and purchased. And one of the things that they present you with is, is this thought helpful? And it's just kind of a cool little pattern interrupt I've found of hey, is this thought actually helpful to me? Because sometimes a lot of us have runaway thoughts and it starts spiraling. It's Almost like the Viktor Frankl the space between stimulus and response. Like for me, that's what this is. It's this pattern interrupt of is this thought helpful? And yeah, I think that's, that's a great one for as you're saying, like, okay, it is impossible. But is that actually true? That's the pattern interrupt on that reflexive response and just going to pushback. And of course, our choose of I local case studies are always confidential. We don't ever talk about them and I would never, ever give any kind of identifying information or anything. But we had a case study this year in 2025 where a lot of us were trying to give really constructive feedback. And the person who was the subject of the case study, they like reflexively said, oh, that's not for me for a variety of reasons. And you could see a lot of people getting increasingly frustrated. Not that you expect your advice to be taken right away. And it's okay, you're going to change your life, but just think about it. Just take a step back, take a beat. I think that's what we should all do. I think that's what this whole last five minutes is. Ginger. Right. It's like in every aspect of your life, just take a step back, take a breath, take a beat and maybe even just open yourself up to the possibility that this could work for me. This could be true. It doesn't mean you have to change. Right. On a dime. But like you're saying you thought about that with Megan for days, weeks, months, and look at where you are now. You have a high yield savings for four years from now that I didn't know about until right this minute, which is amazing.

A (30:03)

Yeah. We can even take one step back if you're listening and you're like kind of new to this idea of thinking this way. Is this thought useful or is this thought helpful? Is really a good way to go. But you can even go back farther and just recognize like this is a thought. Right? Like that's the first step is recognizing this is not a fact, this is a thought. And that when we can start to do that right, then we can start to say, okay, well what's the function of this? Or how is this useful or not useful?

B (30:34)

Yeah, that's great. I love that.

A (30:37)

Okay, I want to talk about a more recent episode that I did with Maggie Tucker of Inside Out Money, who is such a delight. And one thing she said that I've thought a lot about is so she had this really high paying job and she retired when she was I think 41. And I said, do you ever think about how rich you could be if you would have stayed at your job? Like, surely this is something you think about sometimes, that there's like some loss there of a lifestyle you could have had. And she said, you know, I was never going to be the kind of person who spent $50,000 on plane tickets, even if I had an extra $50,000. Yes. To me, that is so useful. That is so helpful to think about because it's something that I kind of think about too, right? Like, I'm going to retire early, and if I didn't, and I have such a high savings rate, if I didn't, I could really have this stack of cash. And do I, like, do I really want to trade that for my time? I think I do, but do I? And then when she said that, I was like, that is exactly me. Like, even if I had the money, I don't want to spend like a rich person spends. Like, I don't want to spend $50,000 on plane tickets ever. And that kind of settled something inside me in terms of that I felt like I was on the right path for me.

B (32:07)

Yeah, I like that a lot. I think that's an add on to a thought experiment which I think is useful for a lot of us, which is, okay, what if I happened upon. What if I hit the mega millions when it's a billion dollars and I have 400 million after whatever taxes and time value money dropped into my bank account? How would my life actually change? And everybody's going to have a different answer, of course. But I don't know that my life would materially change. And I think that was a really cool realization this year of I am living into the life that I really want. And this entire five plan that I've had for my entire adult life. It feels like I'm finally flexing my five muscles in terms of the time that I spend. My priorities, my relationships, my friends, my everything. Like, it feels so real. And honestly, Ginger, like, my life does not costs very much. It really doesn't. And I think if you exclude money that obviously I spend on my kids and such, if it's just like my lifestyle post fi, let's say five or six years from now, I think I only spend about $35,000 a year or something crazy like that. It is minuscule and ginger to a lot of people, that would sound like a life of deprivation. But I think anybody who is a fly on the wall in my life would say, wow, this guy is living just an incredible life. And I think it's about priorities. And frankly, like, I don't spend on cars. That's not something that's ever going to be an expense. I don't go out to eat all that often, but I cook incredible, delicious, healthy food at home. I go to the gym for hours a day. Like, that only cost me $70 a month. Like, it doesn't matter if I go for six hours a day or one hour a week. It's the same $70. Right? Like, that's a really cool thing. I think on my thought experiment, if I had hundreds of millions of dollars, I would fly private. So, you know, it's funny, like, if we're doing this crazy thought experiment of like, okay, if you had hundreds of millions, I would fly private because I think that would actually make a material difference. But to your question, like, would I ever buy the first class tickets under a real construct of a life where I had a couple extra million dollars? Like, would I spend $50,000 on first class tickets to Japan? No. No chance. There's no world where I'd ever do that. If money was literally no object, I probably would actually do something that would materially make a difference, which is I roll up to my private airport, I walk onto my plane and the plane takes off. Like that would actually make a difference. You know, you avoid tsa. You avoid all those things, like getting to the plane early. Like that would make a difference. Maybe, maybe, maybe I would have a private chef. But even that, I don't know that I would. I really don't. So I'm not sure what else I would spend money on.

A (34:53)

Yeah, it's a good place to be. Speaking of your personal life and your personal airport.

B (34:59)

Yeah.

A (35:01)

What do you remember from our episode when I interviewed you?

B (35:05)

Yeah, that was one I had on my list. So episode 533 was getting personal with Personal finance with Brad and Ginger doing the interview.

A (35:16)

Before you jump in, I really want to hear what you have to say, but I want to share one thing I remember because it was before we hit record, and you were like, we're only going to talk about the divorce for four minutes. I was like, no, we're not. We're going to talk about it more than four minutes, Brad. So I remember that. But part of that was because you were feeling, I think, really hesitant to get personal about that or to share too much or to be vulnerable and. And you were kind of concerned about what other people might think about that episode.

B (35:47)

Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for so deftly handling that episode and that interview. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. And yeah, I mean, I was really nervous because for the entirety of this show I've been this family guy and I've talked about my family and it's hard to publicly come out and say, hey, I'm getting a divorce. And I know it happens, obviously to tens upon tens of millions of people and it's nothing to be ashamed of, but nevertheless, it was not easy. And I've also seen people in our community like Pete, Mr. Money, Mustache, and even Paula pan to a lesser degree. Like, people get kind of attacked when they come out and say they're getting divorced, which is insane and just so preposterous. And I didn't want it to take away from Fi and like all the hard work that so many of us have put into like, to making this a really viable path of life. And I know that sounds silly and maybe even grandiose, but like, I just didn't want my own personal life to take away from something that I think can really help millions upon millions of people. And really, to our community's great credit, I had an outpouring of support after that episode. I was really nervous. I genuinely was. And don't get me wrong, I didn't go on Reddit or the other cesspools of the universe because I know there was some bad stuff there, but I must have gotten 150 emails and the word, actually the word you use, vulnerable, came up in almost every single one of them. And it was, yeah, I think people appreciate the honesty. Always people appreciate honesty. People appreciate vulnerability. That's how you get close to people. And I think that is a big learning that I've had just in my life in general is you don't have to be the perfect person. You don't have to. And I hopefully never really did this all that much. You don't have to pretend to be somebody. You should just be you and Ginger. It's funny because I sent this little screenshot to my daughter yesterday and it was from a newsletter by this guy, Sean Purry, who's a host of my first Million. And part of it was, quote, people only remember you're weird. And it's kind of an oddly phrased thing, but I think, I think a lot of us strive to be normal throughout life and like not ruffle feathers, not just fit in. And something I've tried to tell to Anna, my older daughter, who's a 17 year old teenage girl who is into Roller coasters and into all these other, you know, really just fun, interesting, quirky things and not makeup and TikTok and other nonsense that a lot of people are her age. I've tried to tell her something to the effect of people only. Remember, you're weird. Like, you're not looking to fit in with everybody. You're looking for those special people in your life, and people gravitate towards you, not some fake manifestation of you or. Or this faux Anna. They want to get in touch with you. And I think letting that show to people is what brings them in. It doesn't repel people. It's going to repel certain people, but those are the people you want to repel. It's going to bring in the people that you want to. So, anyway, that's a very long way of saying, like, I know being vulnerable is important. And. Yeah, it was just. I really. I was so appreciative of our community and how everybody responds to that. So thank you again.

A (38:48)

Okay, well, this talk of vulnerability makes me think about the interview I did with Katie Donegan. I think that was 5:23. And we talked a lot about perfectionism, and I really appreciated her perspective on how that can show up in relationships, which maybe I hadn't thought about before, where she said, okay, you want to, like, do this thing perfectly, this thing, whatever it is, right? But then when you think about a relationship, there is no, like, done, Right. And so you can never, like, do it perfectly. And so one example that she gave was about texting and emails and how when you text someone and they text back and then you text them, it can never be done. You can never be like, I have finished this and done this perfectly. And that's something that I've thought about a lot, too, about, like, the things that are dynamic versus the things that are static, and how when we're trying to be perfect versus vulnerable, kind of how that can show up in our lives.

B (39:53)

Yeah, that's interesting. And, yeah, it is hard just with any kind of interpersonal communication. Right. I think about emails, you try to get to inbox zero, whether that's a goal or not, and you just sent out 20 emails. And what is that? Emails beget more emails. Right. So emails come pouring in, and you're never at zero. So you quickly come to the realization that I can't ever really be at zero. And that maybe puts you at peace a little bit.

A (40:18)

Yeah.

B (40:18)

All right, Ginger. One that jumped out to me, which I talked about in passing in the podcast and in my newsletter this Year was new Phi math. And this is something that I, that I coined. I always say the little things are the big things in life. And really in phi, little things can add up to something significant. And we've always taken that. The example that I've always used is for every hundred dollars you cut out of your monthly budget, so a hundred dollars out of your monthly budget is a full $30,000 less you need to reach Fi. So just real quick math is a hundred dollars a month is $1,200 a year. And to get our FI number, we multiply by 25, right? So 1200 multiplied by 25 is $30,000. So if you cut that $100 out a month, you need 30,000 less to reach FI. But interestingly, the part that I've always neglected, which makes it way, way, way more powerful, is you're not just throwing that money out. Obviously you're going to then invest that money. So you invest that money in low cost index funds at let's say, 8% annual return, which of course you can't promise, but over decades you would imagine it's going to come out to something like that. And Ginger, after 20 years investing that $100 a month, you have $60,000 sitting in your investment account just from that hundred dollar change. So not only does your fine number go down 30,000, but your investment balance is now a positive 60,000. So the change, it's a $90,000 change on $100 a month that you cut out. So don't let anybody tell you the little things don't matter on the path to fi. Now again, this doesn't mean be ultra frugal and, and miserly and save every dollar because, oh, Brad said every dollar means this and that and whatever. But realistically, if you cut a $500 car payment out of your life and you drive an old car, well, that could be worth, in this case, $450,000. That's not insignificant at all. So that was a really cool bit of math.

A (42:27)

Okay. One that maybe this is a little bit more controversial. Not really. Not really. But when I.

B (42:34)

You like controversy, Ginger, do it.

A (42:37)

I'm like, not quite sure how to talk about it, but I was thinking about what I remember from the Vicki Robin episode, which was 5:41. And we talked a lot about death and we talked a lot about values. And Vicki said that the most important thing is our relationships. But the thing that she said that really struck me was about being careful to really nurture your in person community. And I had kind of this gut reaction to what she said, she was saying something about like, oh, your online connections aren't as real. And my gut reaction was like, no, Vicki, we're friends. We're going to be friends. Right? Because I was thinking about how I had just made this connection with this person in the online world. But you know what? Of course I haven't kept up with Vicki. And the part that feels controversial to me is like, I know that real, lasting, authentic relationships happen online. I have some of those relationships of people that I have met that way, but they are not as robust, they are not as important as the relationships that I have in my daily life. I don't know. What do you think about that?

B (43:53)

Yeah, I mean, I think getting together in person deepens relationships no matter what. And I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting. Do I have any close friends that I would say are online only? So somebody that I've texted or message or email only? Yeah, probably not. So I would expand like the in person to. Also, video calls nowadays are fantastic. So like, to me that counts as like a quasi in person. But it is amazing how we can find our people. We can find our tribe online, which is really great. It's not. It's not taking away because. Yeah, I mean, you see forums everywhere. You know, we have our choose of I forums and yeah, people get a lot of great knowledge, certainly. But yeah, are you making lifelong friends that way without getting together in person or on video calls or something? Probably not.

A (44:46)

I know, I like that you brought up the video calls because it shows the way that these things aren't necessarily distinct or the ways that we're understanding relationships differently than we were maybe 20 years ago, where we have different tools to strengthen those relationships. But I guess it's important to me in terms of the. Those online connections are really fun to me and that has value and that's great. And it allows you to have a broader network. And in terms of thinking about how you spend your energy, thinking about how you spend your time, making sure that the thing that you are investing in most is that coffee that you have down at the bakery is that time you spend in the sauna with a friend that you see once a week and how those are the things that are going to ultimately sustain you or bring satisfaction to your life.

B (45:41)

Yeah, agreed. And let's be clear, it takes effort, right? It actually. It really does take effort to get together with people because it's always easier to do the default, which is to not see somebody, to not reach out to not take time out of your schedule and do something. But I think you lose a good portion of the richness of life that way. And I've just. The last couple weeks I've been trying to take phone calls and take coffee meetings with friends and even loose acquaintances and just, just do it. I've had I think four zoom calls in the last three weeks with people who I've never had a zoom call with. And it's been fantastic. It's been really, really cool. And yeah, I had two coffees recently which were fun. And it also ties into. So this really ties into two things that I had on my list, totally unbeknownst to you, junji, but episode 532 I had Jonathan, my co founder of Shoes of I on the podcast and as he called it a wouldn't it be cool if episode. And we thought we were going to do these every four or so months and I think that was the only one we did in 2025. Because honestly, Jonathan has been building this choose a five platform and now app that. I mean he spent literally thousands of hours on many, many, many thousands of hours on. And really the whole goal has been to create the ability for people to have a lot of these in real life meetups. And we've always had our choose a by local groups on Facebook, which if we're all honest with ourselves, Facebook is horrible and nobody wants anything to do with it. They are a terrible partner. They think only short term, which is the opposite of, of what people in the FI community think. They think the opposite of building relationships. Like just for instance, anytime myself or another admin puts an event out, we're lucky if a couple percent of people in the group sees that post because Facebook throttles every type of link that's to any kind of outgoing thing. It's a terrible, terrible platform. And I mean, frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves. So what we did was we created something. We created something great. And now Jonathan has this up and running. Where is it perfect? No, it's not perfect, but it's probably 98% of the way there. And it's to the point where like it is finally fulfilling these dreams Ginger, that I've had for nine years of making this happen where if an admin of a local group creates an event, it gets emailed out to every member of the local group and they're not beholden to this Facebook algorithm and you can rcp, you can add it to your calendar, you get notifications from us on when the event's Happening. This is all free, of course. This is choose a vi. You don't pay for anything. So this is not for us to get any kind of enrichment in any way. This is to create and facilitate the community that we've built over the last nearly decade. And it's finally there. And the cool thing is again, you don't have to be an admin to set up an event. You can create an event. Hey, I'm going to a coffee shop next Saturday. Let's see who wants to come from the FI community and it'll show up. Everybody gets a weekly digest on Wednesdays with their local events and the local admins can approve all these events. Of course, you know, there is always spam and such, so we need to make sure there's some layer of somebody approving it. But how cool is this? Like I want to go on a hike. I'm going to go anyway. Let me throw it open to my local group because like you said, these real life meetups, they enrich and it's just so neat to see that Jonathan was able to build something really special. So yeah, if you're interested, go to choose a comm slash local. And yeah, you'll just start getting emails and that weekly email digest of the local events. And it's really cool. And this ties in just finally, Ginger, with episode 572 with Emily and Emily about the adventure lists, which I thought was really cool and, and it's just a neat way to really think about. Okay, I know I want to do fun things, but if I just go through my normal life, I'm going to opt just to go the status quo. Right. It's just, it's hard to step outside of your comfort zone if you don't think about it, if you're not prepared for it. And having a list of things that I want to do both broadly and large scale but also micro of. Here are the 24 things I want to do in my Richmond local area. I've got three hours this afternoon. Let me just look at my list and let's do one of those things. Like having that list allows you to spontaneously have an adventure.

A (50:07)

Okay, Brad. Well that makes me think about when you were saying those in person connections require effort. And it made me think about this quote from M. Scott Peck who says that every act of love is a sacrifice. There are no exceptions. And I think about that a lot. Right. So the example that I think he gives or that I made up is that if someone gives a really big gift, right. We could think of, oh, what an act of love. But if it's not a sacrifice for them because they have a lot of money, then that is actually an act of maybe generosity, but it's not an act of love. And so for it to be an act of love, there has to be an element of sacrifice. And that's kind of part of what we're talking about. About. Well, the in person connections are so important because we make effort for each other, we make sacrifices for each other. So maybe we can kind of end on this idea of. Because I bet we can all kind of agree with that we want more love in our life and we want more connection in our life. So think about what tiny sacrifice you can make that can even be picking up the phone when you want to text for someone who, you know, enjoys having a phone conversation. Right. So what is some effort that you can apply? What is a sacrifice that you can make for someone that you care about or someone that you want to care about? And then go ahead and email those to Brad because we want to hear about them.

B (51:30)

Yeah, I do. I always do. I thought you were throwing me under the bus there, Ginger. But no, I love that.

A (51:36)

Yeah, send them to Brad because he needs help in learning how to be a person. No, send them because we want to hear about those things that enrich your lives.

B (51:46)

Yeah, we do, indeed. So, yeah, you can always reach@feedbackhoosevay.com or go to the website choose a vi.com feedback or really, the best way is to get on my newsletter and you get that every Tuesday. You can always hit reply to that that comes to our Choose a inbox so you can go to Choose a. Com subscribe.

A (52:07)

And if there were any moments that stuck out for you this year, we would also love to hear that. Whether that's about something from the podcast or something that you did in your.

B (52:18)

Life, I would love that. And that is a really great segment that I can put in a future newsletter. Or frankly, if we get enough of them, Ginger, we could do another episode on that. That would be really fun to crowdsource an episode, but at the very least, I can put those in my newsletter. So, yeah, great idea. Send them in. This community is about you, and we always want to hear what you're up to because it so far exceeds my experience and Ginger's experience. And we enrich our lives when we all share this. So, as always, thank you for being part of the chooservy community. Thank you for being here. Thank you for taking action and keep on doing that. Keep on doing these little things that make your life better. That's why you're here. That's why you're learning, and we're all connecting. And, Ginger, thank you, as always, for being here and for helping me along the journey.

A (53:05)

See you next year.