← ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast
ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast
551 | Roundup: Buy vs. Rent, Mortgage Amortization, Minimalism and More
00:59:00
Lets dive into the emotional and practical considerations of paying off a mortgage early, explore the benefits and drawbacks, personal experiences, and broader financial implications of renting versus owning a home. Key Topics and Timestamps ...
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- [00:00]
Brad
Hello and welcome to Choose a fy. Today on the show, we have another roundup, which are my absolute favorite episodes. So Ginger's back for another round of this. And this is a really fun conversation. We talk about both the pluses and minuses of paying off your mortgage, buying versus renting. I think Ginger and I both are in different life situations and we kind of talk through a lot of these things, even amortizing your mortgage and kind of off the wall thoughts that I've had on that, that I've really dove into the numbers and looked at amortization schedules and hopefully put this into perspective that maybe you've never considered before. We talk a lot about minimalism and stuff and owning things, hitting credit card spends and even just little improvements in life. And finally, we close with the choose ay local app that Jonathan has created that is really something special. And I think it's going to revolutionize what we have going on at Choose a virtual. And hopefully this is something that is really going to make a difference in the choose of I local groups and really the larger conversation of Fi and being able to ask questions of our friends and experts. I think there's something special going on. So I think you're really going to like this episode. And with that, welcome to choose have Fi. Ginger, it is always good to see you. And these roundup episodes are a blast. So it's been a couple of months. How's it going?
- [01:24]
Ginger
Oh, it's been good. It's good to be back on the show. Okay, let's open with. I want to tell you about a YouTube clip that I was watching this morning, and it was titled something like 10 Reasons to Pay off your house early.
- [01:39]
Brad
Okay.
- [01:39]
Ginger
Do you know why I was watching this?
- [01:42]
Brad
I do not.
- [01:43]
Ginger
Confirmation bias. Because. Because I've made a decision and I want to be told that it's a good decision. So my husband and I are hopefully going to have paid off our house by the end of the year. So I am obsessed with this. I'm thinking about it all the time. I'm like going to my amortization calculator constantly to see, like, wait, if I put this much more, you know, can I knock another month off? I know what we're doing is controversial, although I will say I've only been throwing extra at it for the last year and a half.
- [02:21]
Brad
Okay.
- [02:22]
Ginger
And that was kind of my way to sort of mitigate maybe some of the, like. I know it's not a great optimized decision financially, but we didn't pay it off 10 years early. We're going to pay it off, you know, like two years early. So I'm really excited about it and I kind of wanted to talk to you about it and. Yeah, what do you think about that?
- [02:43]
Brad
Oh, I love it. Well, first off, congrats. I think no matter what comes next, no matter what anybody is saying, yelling at you or whatever. Yeah, I'm kidding, obviously, but in listening to this, that's fantastic. To pay off your mortgage is a huge accomplishment. And again, all jokes aside, I don't think personal finance and certainly fi, in my opinion, is about being perfectly optimized at all times. I think, sure, there's that tiny little sliver of people in our community who are always going to be the math nerds and the ultra optimizers, but think most people are not really like that. We're kind of, hey, I'm optimizing for the sleep well at night test. Right. And if paying off your mortgage makes you sleep better at night, then that's a massive win as far as I'm concerned. And it sounds like since you said, hey, we're only paying it off two years early and B, you only started making these extra payments a year ago. It doesn't sound like a ton of crazy things went down here, right? Like, this is just, hey, we decided to pay it off a little bit early. No harm, no foul. And I mean, you and your husband are going to have a celebration when that thing is paid off. So, I mean, that's my quick hit thought. I'm sure you have actual, like, real questions and we can dive into maybe some actual analysis if we want or high level. But if you're looking for confirmation bias, I'll tell you, you know, paying off the mortgage is not something. Well, that's not entirely true. It is. It's something that I went back and forth on when I did have a mortgage and there were times where I did throw some extra money to principal every month for a couple of years there. And then I decided, oh, you know what, I don't really want to do that. I have such a low interest rate. This doesn't make sense. But like, I mean, frankly, like, I vacillated with it just constantly. So I don't think there's really a right answer other than what's good for you. So, yeah, I mean, I think just to summarize, a hearty congrats. That's really, really awesome.
- [04:41]
Ginger
Yeah, I think about who I was four years ago even, like, I specifically remember having this conversation with a friend about it was the time during the vaccine lotteries, okay, where at least our state was, like, if you got vaccinated, then you were put into this lottery and you might win $100,000, or. I have no idea what the number was, but I remember we were all like, okay, we're going to win, so let's all plan what we're going to do with our $100,000. And so in these. In these very fun conversations, paying off the house would always come up. And I was so firmly like, no, no, no, don't do that. You know? But then I think the closer that I have gotten to being done with that bill, like, it really cranked up the emotional intensity of that decision where when it was farther away, I could be more rational, I guess, and I could optimize around interest rate. So I think for me, it was something about just getting closer to it. Like I said, if we didn't start putting money towards it, we'd still be done in a few years. So it wasn't that big of a deal. But getting closer to it just like, oh, my gosh, it feels so exciting to. You know, this is the biggest financial goal we've ever had or worked towards. So I take your point. And for us, yes, it does feel like the right decision. And I have no. No plan to slow down now.
- [06:11]
Brad
That's huge. And, Ginger, I mean, I think you hit on something important there, which is. This is supposed to be fun.
- [06:17]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [06:17]
Brad
This journey to fi. Like, I think that's what so many people from the outside of our community think, that we're these misers and we're depriving ourselves and we're unhappy and we're running away from jobs. Like, this is like FI circa 2013, but the financial independence community circa 2025, I think, to me, is about living better lives. And I think this whole journey should be fun. No part of it should we wish away in terms of. Oh, just I'm just cranking through this and just trying to increase my savings rate, and I'll wake up five or 10 years from now. Five, and everything's going to be better. Like, I think we've all kind of realized that that's not the path to success. It's about trying to, for me at least, trying to simplify everything, trying to get everything on autopilot, trying to not let my brain get in the way of investment decisions, of savings decisions of things like that, and then taking all that extra free time that I have now to experiment on what do I want My life to look like. Yeah, right. Like, and if part of your fun fi journey is paying off your mortgage, then do it. That's phenomenal as far as I'm concerned. And so that's my, like, giving license to every single person. Listening to this is, like, just, you gotta figure out what works for you. And don't listen to the, like, the naysayers or the people who say, like, oh, that's not perfectly optimized. Like, who cares what's perfectly optimized? Just do what works for your life. And. And of course, you don't want to do stupid things. Of course. But that's all, like, at the margin, at the end of the day, like, just figure out what works for your life and just try to live a better life today, tomorrow, and. And all the tomorrows in the future. So. Yeah, Ginger, I'm glad you brought that up, because I think, like, fun is a really important part of this.
- [08:05]
Ginger
I thought it could be worth talking about, too, because when we think about paying off the mortgage early, we talk about, like, should I do this or should I not do this? And there's so many little steps in between that. Like, the weird thing that we're doing, which is, oh, once you hit two years, to really speed it up. And I remember. I think I remember when you and Jonathan did an episode about paying off the mortgage early. You talked a little bit about instead of just, like, choosing either a 15 or a 30 year, in fact, to choose a 30 year, but pay it like a 15 year. And that's another one of those things that's, like. That gives you another option, another way to think about it when maybe what you're optimizing for is safety or maybe what you're optimizing for is freedom. Maybe it would be worth you kind of running through what that's all about.
- [08:52]
Brad
Yeah. Damn, Ginger, that's a. That's an incredible memory. And, yeah, so I'm going to do this off the top of my head, and I remember it well enough, but I have always thought. And I ran the numbers. I think a lot of people get confused when it comes to, like, the amortization schedule on their mortgage. And you hear this often with refinancing. So, oh, I'm going to reset the amortization schedule, and I'm going to just. Then, all of a sudden, I'm going to start paying a whole lot more in interest on a percentage basis each month because I started my mortgage over. Well, that's true to a degree, but it's not the Apples to apples comparison. So I'm going to get around to the 15 to 30 year, but I think it's a starker example when it comes to refinancing because again, that's the commonly held myth that, oh, you're restarting your amortization. And that's just that. But what actually happens is the apples to apples would be, okay, yes, you refinanced. And now in most cases when you refinance, it's because the interest rate went down. And also, just almost by definition, you've paid off more principal than your prior mortgage that you just refinanced out of. So your payment is actually going to be lower every month. Okay? And yes, just the way these amortization schedules work, you do pay a significant amount of interest every single month on a percentage basis. So let's say your, your mortgage payment is $1,500 a month. And you look at those first year or two, really, first handful of years, you're paying somewhere 85, 90% of the principal and interest portion to interest, actually. So that's true. But the apples to apples would be okay, actually, take your old mortgage payment, the principal and interest portion, and continue paying that actually. So again, just for simplicity's sake, let's say your old mortgage payment on your higher balance, your higher principal balance and the higher interest rate was $2,000 a month, and you've been paying it for, I don't know, 10 years, 15 years, something like that. And again, when you refinance now, naturally the interest rate, you wouldn't do this if the interest rate didn't go down and that principal has been paid down for the over those 15 years, your payment every month is going to be lower. Okay, so let's just say it went down, just again, totally made up. It went down to $1,200 a month. Well, the apples to apples would be to continue paying at the 2,000 per month that you were previously paying. And lo and behold, you would actually find that the amortization schedule is not only the same, but it's better than you previously had on your old mortgage because the interest rate went down. So actually the only important component there is since the interest rate went down, you're actually paying a higher, higher amount towards principal every month. So you'll notice if you run this schedule and just again, just do this like, hey, I'm refinancing, but I'm paying that extra principal to get me back to where my old principal and interest payment was. My old mortgage payment, not including your Escrow amounts for taxes and insurance. But if you just made it equivalent on the principal and interest, you would actually pay it off quicker. And now that kind of makes sense because again, the interest rate went down. So, okay, that all said, and hopefully that wasn't too confusing, it's a little hard to do this obviously on a podcast, not seeing it on paper, but trust me, just like run a mortgage amortization schedule and just throw in your new amount. And even just to prove it out to yourself, keep the interest rate the same. Okay? And this actually gets us into that 15 versus 30 year. Keep the interest rate the same and just pay that extra principal that gets you up to where your old mortgage payment was and you'll actually notice that it is identical. In that case, you'll pay it off exactly when you would have paid it off on your old mortgage. But again, because in reality the interest rate went down, if you're paying that extra principal, you'll pay it off quicker. So this is not a requirement, you don't have to do it, but it's just to prove to yourself that, oh, this is how that amortization schedule works. So it really takes something that is very, very difficult to understand. And when you just see it on a mortgage interest calculator and a mortgage amortization schedule, it actually becomes clear. So now I'll take that to this. 15 versus 30 year. My argument has always been that I would, for me, and of course I don't give personal finance advice. You know, I just talk about like what I would do. I would always do a 30 year mortgage because using the same principle, the same concept, I can basically self amortize my mortgage into as many years as I want to by paying extra principal. So I think a 15 year mortgage or even less some people do a 10 year mortgage. Like I think that cuts you down on options because it locks you into contractually locks you into a higher payment every month. Okay, let's just say something went wrong, you lost your job or something. Like, do you want to be contractually locked into a higher mortgage payment? No, I don't. Not when I could have basically done this on my own. Now naturally you are going to pay, and this is the opposite of the example that I just talked about with the refinance. What you do pay extra is a tiny little interest rate premium. So you're going to pay a little extra in your interest rate. And that to me is the cost of doing business to have this extra flexibility. So again, to prove it out, you can just run Side by side. And let's just say again, to prove it, just keep the interest rate the exact same, okay? Just make it up and say it's a 5% interest rate or even prevailing, whatever, 7%, and throw in your numbers. So throw in the principal amount of my mortgage, let's say is 300,000. I'm doing it at 7% interest. And then you put in the, the years and do 15 years and figure out what the payment amount is. Do 30 years and you get the payment amount. Okay. And then you just compare them. Now naturally the payment on the 15 year mortgage is going to be much more every month. Again, that's. Yeah, you're paying it off much quicker. But again you're contractually locked into that. Right? So Ginger, again, I'm totally making these numbers up. I could run this, but it's actually relevant. We'll use the same numbers, right? Like that $2,000 a month for the 15 year mortgage. And we'll say it's $1200 a month for the 30 year mortgage. Now these are again, totally made up numbers. So now that's an $800 difference. Right? So what I would say is again, to prove this out to yourself, go into this mortgage amortization schedule and do that 30 year, but then pay $800 a month extra on your extra principal every month and you will find that it is paid off in exactly 15 years. Okay? So there's no secret here. There's no surprise, nothing crazy is happening. You're self amortizing it into a 15 year mortgage. You could self amortize it into any number of years that you want. But again, to prove this point, it's just literally apples to apples. But now naturally you are paying a premium, so the interest rate would be a little bit extra. Right? So instead of it being 7% again making these numbers up, it might be 7.125 or 7 and a quarter or something like that. So that's the extra premium that you're paying to get this extra flexibility. But to me I think that's worth it. In my own life, I would always rather have my contractually locked in payments every month be dramatically less. And then I can self amortize this as quickly or slowly as I want. And I can also go into and out of that like as life changes and things come up. But I have the flexibility as opposed to I am stuck in this 15 year mortgage until I refinance or sell the house, basically. So I know that was a lot changer, but hopefully I explained the Two examples. Well, and I know it's interesting because in one case the interest rate is going down, the other it's going up. But nevertheless, like, when you compare apples to apples, like, you realize there are no surprises here. It's all the same math. But you're just that interest rate going up or down is what's actually changing.
- [17:00]
Ginger
Yeah. And it's interesting to hear you talk about optimizing for flexibility, because I think about how that's what we did as well. But we kind of did it on the back end where the reason that I started throwing more money at the house was that two years ago we had this opportunity to maybe skip town for a couple years. We were going to do a thing. And as we were, like, trying to figure out the logistics of doing it, the house kept coming up as, like, we have to have the house payment covered. And it was just such a disaster because there were pets and it wasn't, like, easy to just, like, rent it out. Yeah. And so even once that fell through and it was like, okay, we're not going to do that. Just thinking about. Because we always kind of have our minds on, like, oh, should we leave town? Should we do something interesting for a few years? And thinking, okay, if our house was paid off and that huge logistical nightmare was, like, solved, and whatever we did with the house, it would be okay. To me, I thought, okay, I'm going to lose some money, just like you were saying, I'm going to pay a price to pay off the house early. But to me, it's worth it for the flexibility of, like, hey, if I want to do something interesting in a year, making sure that my mortgage gets paid is not going to be the thing that stops that from happening.
- [18:17]
Brad
Right. I like that. And yeah, again, like, to each their own on how they consider different aspects of their financial life. Right. And I think, yeah, like, you not having that mortgage payment, like, if that helps facilitate you going on this trip of a lifetime or whatever, this skipping down, opening up options is, like, if that's the difference, the make or break difference for you and your husband and your family, like, then that's great. Right. Like, for other people, it might just be, hey, look, we're not really locked into this particular house, and who knows if we're going to come back to Washington State or maybe we move back to the exact location, whatever it may be. Like, they might decide to sell their house if they're going away for two, three, five years as opposed to letting it sit there. Right. But again, I'm not saying this is the right thing to do. I think it's just how someone might look at it. It's like, okay, yeah, you've paid off this mortgage, but you also have all that equity just sitting in the walls, in essence inert, doing nothing. And there is an opportunity cost to that. Like, that's an interesting concept when you think about like renting versus owning. And yeah, it doesn't seem like your house costs a lot when you have it paid off especially. But let's say you have $400,000 in equity on a paid off house. Like, yeah, houses go up a little bit sometimes, you know, but on average a couple percent a year. But realistically, like, you can't count on appreciation when it comes to houses. So if you had that $400,000 sitting in a high yield savings account earning 4%, that's $16,000 a year in interest income you'd get. Which, hey, if this adventure of yours was taking you to Portugal or Indonesia or something like that, might pay for a decent bit of your rent for, for each of the years. So again, I'm not trying to tell you right or wrong or, or anything. It's just like all these considerations really factor in and, and I think the cool part is it's just comes down to your own life, Ginger, in this case, and, and your own life, you who's listening to me talking about this, and I think there's no right answer, but knowing all the factors, I think that's what matters most.
- [20:20]
Ginger
Yeah. Okay, let's talk about some other factors. Let's go back to. So a few weeks ago, I, for the Getting Personal series and you mentioned that you are renting and want to keep renting forever and ever and ever because it's so great. And at the time I was like, okay, we're going to have to get back to this because you felt so strongly about it and we kind of glossed over it. But I wonder now that a little bit of time has passed, how that is sitting with you or if you have more to share sort of about that. I don't know. Maybe it's not a change of heart, but maybe it is.
- [20:56]
Brad
Yeah, it's a really good question. I'm glad you brought that back up. And yeah, that episode was episode 533. So yeah, Ginger, it's crazy that that was, that was almost five months ago, which is absolutely wild. And yeah, I did, I did talk about some really personal things on there, especially some, some changes going on in my personal life. And I, I Wanted to just first off, say a huge thank you to all the people. The outpouring of. Of kindness and compassion that people showed me. After that, I was frankly, you know, just pretty worried about talking about something just so intensely personal on the show. And I mean, goodness, you all just really, really came through in just a beautifully human way. So, yeah, Ginger, thank you for facilitating that conversation first off. And thank you to everybody listening, who is just incredibly, incredibly kind. That meant more to me than you'll really ever, ever, ever know. So, yeah, as part of that, I talked about not living in the house and the mortgage that I. That I've had and moving out and getting an apartment where I am now renting. So that's what Ginger. Ginger was talking about there. And yeah, Ginger, it. I mean, you know, it's certainly the change of heart part is an interesting thing. Like, and also, let's be clear, because I think there, I saw a lot of posts in the Facebook group about this. Like, oh, is Brad saying you should only rent or that this is the only thing, or this is what he advises? And of course, I'm paraphrasing very loosely there, but let's be clear, it is absolutely not the only way to go. It's not even necessarily the best way. Again, like, I hate to keep saying this, but, like, this is really personal for your life. And I think owning a home, for many people, to me most especially, like, it was always about stability. So owning my home, I always believed was a suboptimal financial decision, but a positive decision for my daughters and the continuity of schools, the continuity of just having a home that they knew and loved and having neighbors and friends in the area, like, that was why I always thought owning a home was. Was a great decision. But for me, it was never about the personal finance aspect of it or being like, a great investment or anything like that. Like, I think that's frankly total nonsense. Just like as part of popular culture, like, your home is your largest asset and blah, blah, blah. Like, yeah, I think for regular people, like, it's for savings, it might be at the end of the day, just through, like, sheer, like, backing into this, their biggest financial asset after, you know, 20, 30 years, if you stayed in a home that long. I don't think most people do, frankly. But for most of us in the FI community, if we wake up 30 or 40 years from now, and our home at the home that we live in, again, let's separate this from real estate investments, which are overt and specific and distinct. But if the home that you live in is your biggest financial asset and you're in the financial independence community. I suspect something has gone wrong because, like, I can't imagine, like, saving and investing over years and decades in the stock market or wherever else you, you put your money. Like, I find it hard to believe that that would not vastly outweigh the amount of equity you'd have in your. In your single family residence or your, your home, whatever that looks like. So I think that's kind of a red herring for. If that's even the saying for, for people in the fi. Community. It's just. It's just simply not the case. So that all said, yeah, I mean, Ginger, I love renting. I absolutely love it. I think it's. It's the greatest thing. I think I've been moving my life towards simplicity. I, I know I've mentioned that repeatedly. Another aspect, interestingly, and this is not the anti real estate show, let's be totally clear, but I actually have sold the rental properties that I owned in Georgia. Now, this is completely separate from this renting thing, but I'm just trying to simplify my life in every way possible. And there is just something really, really nice about. Hey, the only thing that I'm on the hook for every single month when it comes to my living expenses is just that rent payment that I have to pay. And if something breaks, if anything goes wrong, it's not my responsibility. I'm not responsible for. I live in a, like a little condo community where there's an HOA fee I don't have to pay, that I don't pay for property taxes. I don't pay anything. I just pay this one monthly fee. And it's fantastic. Like, in terms of optimizing for simplicity, it's really great. And I think, frankly, like, I think it's a better financial move for me as well. If I thought it was a better financial move to own, I probably would consider it. But, yeah, I feel like I'm coming out way ahead.
- [25:36]
Ginger
Are there things about renting that are unexpectedly harder than you thought they'd be?
- [25:41]
Brad
Ooh, no. As of right now, in my particular case, no. I guess maybe at the margin, because it's not my own place. I can't really. I mean. Well, that's not true. That's a limiting belief. I was going to say I can't really make upgrades or changes, and that's, that's just false. I could, but I'd be doing that into someone else's place. Right. Like, I could move out of Here a year from now or six months from now, or who knows, five plus years from now. So one of the only negatives in my particular unit that I'm living in is there's only one H VAC unit and it's a three level place. So the climate control leaves a little bit to be desired. And I've been working some ways around it, but I noticed like, the sliding glass doors out to these little deck and patio that I have on two levels, they're just, they're really not great. And if it was my own place, I would probably replace them. And I don't know how much a sliding door, you know, be a thousand, two thousand, something like that, Dollars. Right. But I could actually do that. I could pay for it out of my own pocket, but I'd be giving it as a gift, in essence to the, to the landlord. But I could make that decision. Right. Which is interesting. But, yeah, like, that's something that I'm probably not prepared to do because I don't know exactly how long I'll live in this, in this unit. So, yeah, I mean, there's some stuff like that. Like, do I really feel like painting the walls when I'd have to probably repaint them or pay a fee for. So, like, yeah, you do give up some of the personalization. But again, it's just at the margins and at the end of the day, it's just money. Right. Like, what are they going to charge me? Like, even if I painted the bland walls into a nice color, like, maybe they actually like it better and they just leave it that way. Like, it might actually be a positive for the homeowner or the property manager. I don't know. It's a question I could ask. But yeah, I mean, I think the scary part of renting for me is again, that lack of continuity, which is why I don't think I ever would have done this. Even though I talked about on the podcast, certainly for years about, oh, I'd love to rent, I think would be great. Like, I just could never do that to my girls. Like, make it so like our fate was in someone else's hands. Right. In terms of like, hey, if the owner of the home decided to sell, like, we have to look for a new place and that wasn't, that wasn't what I wanted for my daughters. Whereas this is just me in this place. And like, if the homeowner decides to sell it because it's just not working for him, I can find another place really, really easily. So I'm not worried about that. So that issue has been mitigated. But that's always hanging over my head that, like, yeah, they might just decide not to renew. They might sell the place. And while I probably plan to be here for five more years, at least until my younger daughter graduates from high school, like, yeah, I might have to move. And that's a cost, obviously, and it is what it is. But yeah, that's kind of the only negative I've found.
- [28:24]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [28:26]
Brad
Thanks for listening to Choose a Phi and for all your support of our mission here. The absolute best way to support choose a 5 is is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards page at choose a buy.com cards. I keep this page constantly updated, so it should always be the top resource for you. Thanks for being part of our community and for your support.
- [28:46]
Ginger
I know we talked last time about sort of minimalism and maybe even I asked you how long would it take you to pack up your place? But one thing that happens when people go to a new place and they are purging their stuff is that they get into this new empty place and they end up buying stuff. They end up filling the space. Have you noticed that happening at all?
- [29:10]
Brad
No. Well, yes and no. I mean, I guess, yeah, it would be ridiculous to say no because there obviously was an expense, right? So this is a three bedroom place. My daughters each have their own bedrooms here for when they, they stay with me. And yeah, I had to go out and buy beds for each of them. I had to buy desks for when they do their homework. I had to buy nightstands and lamps and all that. Like, there certainly is an expense. And then, yeah, I had to buy a chair or two for the living room. We have a second area downstairs in the basement. Like, you know, I had to buy a little bit of furniture. And frankly, like, the other cool part is like, I don't care about this stuff at all. So, yeah, like you, you jokingly asked me, like, or we talked about, like, how quickly I could get out of here. Like, I own virtually nothing at this point that I actually care about. And again with this, the minimalism and simplification, like, I love that. Like, I could probably recreate my entire wardrobe in 15 minutes on Amazon. Like, I know the exact shirts, like the exact Under Armour shirts, the soccer T shirts. I have the exact shorts. Like, it's all in my Amazon account. So, like Ginger, it's pretty wild. Like in this day and age with a password manager on your computer and Dropbox and your Phone and a passport and some credit cards. Like, you don't really need anything. Like, I could get on any computer. I need to. I don't need, like my setup. I sure I have some lights for the podcast. I have a microphone. But I could just buy all that stuff really easily. Like, it's actually really liberating to just not own anything that I really care about. So, like, yeah, I'm not going to, like, trek that furniture around the world with me. Like, I don't care about it wanting it. I'll sell it, I'll donate it, I'll leave it in the place. If they want it to be furnished, who knows, right? But, like, yeah, I really have been pretty good with not. Not filling it up with, like, unnecessary things. I think there's always the level of necessary. Like, I needed to buy stuff for my kitchen. I needed to get a. Whatever it is, an air fryer, microwave oven, what, you know, whatever. Fill in the blank, a Keurig machine. But, yeah, other than that, I really. I've done a pretty good job.
- [31:15]
Ginger
I think it's a really interesting framework that you've laid down, and I want you to write a book about it. And here's the Consist seat, right? The idea, like, we've all heard this idea. Get rid of everything except for the things that you care about, that you're really deeply attached to, the things that bring you joy. But your book is going to be get rid of everything you care about so that the only things that you have are things that you can easily walk away from. Yeah, I love that.
- [31:43]
Brad
Oh, that's cool.
- [31:45]
Ginger
Yeah, I like thinking about it.
- [31:47]
Brad
Yeah, it's like, I don't know if it's Buddhism or, Or meditation or whatever, but, like, it's like a total detachment from stuff. And it's not to say I don't own stuff again. I own some books. I own all the things that are necessary for. For a house. I have a. A nice piece of luggage that I just got, like. But I don't care about any of this stuff. It's all just. It's just money, right? Like, if, whatever forbid, like, you know, I. I had a fire or something or something happened or I got robbed or, you know, not that anybody would rob my place because there's literally nothing of any value in it, but I could literally recreate my whole life in a couple of clicks on Amazon. And that might sound weird to some people. I suspect there are people listening to this who are saying, like, brad, that doesn't sound great to me. Yeah, right. Like, Ginger, you might be one of those people. Like, that's wonderful. If that doesn't sound great to you, that's. I'm not trying to proselytize and, like, say that this is wonderful. This is how you should live. Like, I'm saying, this is how I'm living, and I find it really liberating. But, Ginger, what are your thoughts?
- [32:49]
Ginger
I don't know. I have to think about it more. That's why I want to read your book about it, because I do. I mean, we've kind of talked about how I kind of lean that way in terms of I really want to be less attached to my things. I'm constantly getting rid of stuff. But at the same time, as I hear you talking, I'm like, yeah, there is something about it that doesn't sit super well with me in terms of. I think of, like, oh, well, there's some. I don't know. Yeah, there's something about those things that I have chosen. I mean, I guess it's just the idea of attachment. Right. But there's some messiness there that feels alive to me. And so that's why I feel like, oh, gosh, I kind of have to think about it more. Because those things. Those things are also attachments to the people that I love and to experiences that I've had. So I'm not sure I lean that way. But I'm not ready for the fire yet.
- [33:48]
Brad
Yeah. And that's perfectly fine. And, yeah, let's hope there's no fire. Obviously, I'm not wishing for that. Let's be clear. But, yeah, I think it's okay. And I think that's a fun part of this conversation, is to figure out, like, hey, where am I in life now? What do I think about my stuff? Do I want more stuff? Wanting more stuff is not a bad thing. It's really not. And I'm not saying you're necessarily wanting more stuff, but, like, if you're listening to this and you're saying, like, hey, this stuff brings me joy, it brings me happiness. Like, I'm really carefully cultivating what comes into my life, and I want a net increase in wonderful things that I value. Like, that's really great, but do it with eyes wide open. I think, like, if you're doing it that way, that's great, but if you're just buying haphazardly, I think that's. That's the intentionality, Ginger, that we're constantly talking about here. Choose a pie. Is if you're living a Life of intention and you're being specific and you're really thinking through purchases, then you can't go wrong with those purchases. I think my issue is with people unconsciously just purchasing and doing it to fill some hole that it's not really filling. And it's not to say there aren't things that I wouldn't rebuy. Like, I'm not advocating that. I'm not advocating that, like I want to keep calling things down or that I wouldn't rebuy things if I lost them. Like I've said repeatedly, like for some bizarre reason, like, I love noise canceling headphones. I have these Bose ones. I'm not saying they're better than any other brand, but I just really like them. I Forget they're probably 2 to $300. If I lost them, if they broke, I would buy them in a heartbeat. I wouldn't even think about it. And they just bring a lot of satisfaction to my life. It's like I always joke when, when I turn that button on and I get the noise canceling, it's like it's like lying in a meadow. Like, I just feel like this sense of like peace and serenity and it's maybe it's like quiets the noise in my head or the, the ambient noise around that just like really gets to me. But that was a great purchase. I'll make it again and again and again. And I think that's a cool aspect of life, is like, hey, what are those things that are important? What are those things that, like going back to Marie Kondo or Marie Kondo, which would be the, the Japanese version, like, what brings me joy and I don't know, especially even for clothes. And I don't. I'm not like a fashionista by any stretch of imagination, but like I've pretty much culled almost all of my clothes at this point. And I just wear things that I really love, that fit me well, that are comfortable, that are nice material, even if it's a little expensive. Like when I went traveling, when I went to Indonesia, when I went to Bali and Singapore, a friend of mine, Samantha, talked about merino wool and these T shirts that are just really great for hotter climates. And even though wool doesn't normally connotate, like, oh, I'm going to wear this to a 95 degree Singapore. But she convinced me and I bought, I think about four of them. I subsequently bought two more long sleeves. And these things aren't cheap. I mean, I think most of them cost like $100 per. But I wound up getting a different brand that were maybe 40 or $50 per shirt, which is not inexpensive. But, Ginger, these are fantastic. I wore them and they, they are wonderful travel shirts. They're great shirts to even wear around town. Like, they look nice and they fit great. So I can wear them to maybe even not formal occasions, certainly, but like out to dinner or something like that. Even though it's a T shirt, it's a really nice thing. And like, again, there are five people in the old days certainly who would bristle at, oh, you spent $50 or $40 on a shirt. Like, come on, when you can get free T shirts at fincon or wherever it is. Like. But I mean, like, that's not the life I'm playing at this point. These are really wonderful things, and I'd rebuy them in a heartbeat also.
- [37:31]
Ginger
Okay, so you also mentioned in that previous interview that you're just sort of spending less. You said, my life doesn't really cost that much. And it makes me think about, okay, that's the case for a lot of us. We really tried to get our expenses down. I am currently trying to make my $5,000 chase spend to get my 100,000 points. I bet a lot of listeners are in this process right now. And it's a little bit higher than it used to be. I mean, I haven't obviously done the bonus for three or four years, whatever that thing was.
- [38:06]
Brad
Yeah, four years.
- [38:06]
Ginger
And so I'm like, oh, spending $5,000 on a card is a little bit harder than I anticipated. And I kind of have a solution that I'm happy to share. But it brings up this point of like, oh, is this a mistake? Do we end up actually spending more when we're using credit cards? And especially when we're trying to meet a minimum spend. What do you think of that?
- [38:32]
Brad
Yeah, Ginger, that is a really good question. And actually, Sean wrote in about this actually looks like late last year, talking about, like, behavioral economics. And do we wind up spending more on the credit card than we would if paying cash? And yeah, it's. It's an interesting one. So first, right, like, you're talking about a travel rewards credit card that you opened up recently that you have to hit this minimum spend, and it's fairly considerable. So you said $5,000 in three months. So it's like, what, 1667 per month on average now for anybody who's getting into travel rewards cards, the way those bonuses work, usually here's something like that, like, spend $5,000 in the first three months and earn this bonus, whatever it may be. And how that works again, like, it's not that you have to hit exactly that amount of money or the 1,667amonth. Like, if you had a $5,000 purchase that you put on the card two days into it, that would trigger that bonus. At that point, you'd get it at. For most cards, you'd earn that bonus then at the end of that first statement, close. So also, the other thing is, let's say you put $2,000 on the first month and then you paid it off, of course, on time and in full, that month, and you want to do that every single month in your credit cards or travel rewards. Makes no sense to pursue. It's just that $5,000 cumulative. So it's not like you have to carry a $5,000 balance, like you're going to get hit with interest or something. It doesn't work that way. You put $2,000 on the first month, $2,000 on the second month, you're up to 4,000 cumulative. Then when you hit that next thousand in that third month, then you've reached that bonus requirement and you get it from there. So, Ginger, always just important to kind of hit the hit the highlights of the old school stuff. But, yeah, I mean, listen, I think just the practical reality of life is retailers, and certainly with how easy Amazon is, man, cutting the friction, yeah, it makes your life easier, but it does make it a whole lot easier to just buy things. And I don't know if I can intellectually, 100% honestly say, like, if I had to actually shell out cash, that I would have made 100% of the purchases that I made. Right? Like, I don't. I don't think there's any way that I could very honestly say 100%. I'd like to believe that I would make 90 plus percent of the same purchases, but unless you ran that side by side, it's just hard to know. I don't think I make a ton of just, like, wasteful purchases, but I do spend a lot. And frankly, you might even be able to make the counter argument that because a lot of us in the FI community are maybe have a tendency to be a little too frugal, and this might be a strategy. So I'd be curious of your opinion on this random stretch that I might have here. Is that, like, because a lot of us are too naturally frugal that we might not spend enough, especially on things that might add value to our lives so, like, I'm really into health and fitness and optimizing my sleep specifically. So I just got one of those. The Whoop Band. And as, as I often do, I was listening to Tim Ferriss and he had an episode with Kevin Rose recently. He was talking about, like, Kevin was talking about some kind of nose spray that like, helps cut down on, like, catching viruses and such. And like, okay, like, does it sound a little kooky? Yeah, maybe. But like, it was $20 and I'm like, you know, I really care about my health and I don't love going to conferences or five events and worrying that I'm going to get sick. Like, maybe even just as a placebo, it would be worth the 20 bucks that it cost me. Like, would I have paid that if I had to shell out $20 in cash? Yeah, I probably would have thought about it a little more or I would have instituted something like that 72 hour rule that Liz from Frugal woods talked about way back when in 2017. So, yeah, I mean, where do you come down on this?
- [42:18]
Ginger
Okay, I come down. I think I'm the opposite because cash is like, not as real to me. It's this piece of paper in my hand and then I give it away and then it's gone. Whereas a credit card is the story of how I spent my money.
- [42:33]
Brad
Oh, so literally the trail, the trail of it is the story. Okay, yes.
- [42:38]
Ginger
And so I'm less likely to spend money if I know I'm going to have to like, contend with this later in terms of not paying the bill. But in terms of like, oh, well, when I look back at how much I spent at the coffee shop this month, it's embarrassing. Versus if I just grab cash from over the fridge and buy a coffee that's like nothing. There's no evidence of anything happening to myself. And so for me, I don't think the cash versus card works in that way because to me it's about the trail. But I do worry a little bit about meeting the minimum spends because I notice my thoughts around it where, oh, gosh, I have this big bill. But then I almost feel relief. I'm like, oh, I'm in this period where I have to hit my 5,000. So great, take my money. And I'm not so naive to think that there isn't something like, not great about, like, maybe I am spending more than I would.
- [43:38]
Brad
Yeah, and you might be. And yeah, I think we need to be careful of that. Right. Because like, clearly this whole travel rewards thing we talk about Free travel or close to free travel. If you are spending extra money to hit the bonuses, then this is very clearly not free travel. So something I've done and there are some stipulations around like what you can and can purchase in terms of like gift cards. So I'm not advocating like going out and buying gift cards, but like I've even like preloaded my balance at Amazon by buying 500 or something like that. Like if I was fairly close, like you can actually just buy your own gift card, like basically top up your Amazon account. So I've done that before. Sometimes you can prepay some things. Like that's another nice part about being in the FI community is a lot of us have, have some assets. I think most of us have some assets where even, even if it's you're just getting started, like you're in a position where you're not worried about cash flow so much. Like you can make decisions from more of a place of power. And I've always found this to be like a really unsung aspect of like the benefit of FI is just by virtue of again we're not living paycheck to paycheck. Even if you're just a year or so in to your FI journey or even months depending on your, your income and your savings rate. Like even if you're starting from zero, you might now have a couple thousand dollars in the bank or 5,000, 10,000, whatever it may be. Like you're not so worried anymore about hey, am I going to have enough money to pay when the electric bill comes out or the mortgage comes out? You can actually make decisions from a place of strength. And yeah, just not having to worry about timing has always been a nice thing for me. So like if I see an amazing deal on something, like the joking example I always used to use was like aluminum foil, which again is silly. But like if you find some non perishable and like just some amazing deal somewhere and you know you're going to use X amount in a year or two, why not buy a year or two supply? And now naturally you can't do that with everything Ginger. Right? Like you don't want to have your, your house look like a hoarder's palace. So I'm just talking like at the margins. Like you can make decisions from a place of strength where what actually matters is the value and the deal as opposed to do I literally have enough money to pay for this based on the, the check that's coming in on the 15th and 30th of the month and the money that's coming out otherwise. And it sounds like a little thing, but I think the psychological satisfaction of that is huge. And. And, yeah, like something like that where I just kind of top up my Amazon balance a little bit at the margin. Like, that's a nice thing because I spend a decent percentage of my expenses on Amazon. And I know I'm going to go through that. Whether it's a month, two months, six months, a year, I'm going to go through it. So it's not like all that I'm foregoing is just like the interest that I would have earned on that little bit of money, which is essentially negligible. Right. So that's kind of a. At least a cool rethink from my perspective.
- [46:36]
Ginger
Yeah, I would add two little tips to that. So another way I think to think about it is instead of waiting for the optimal card bonus, instead to time by your big expenses. So I've definitely had some times when it's like, oh, we're about to throw down so much money for summer camp, you know, or, oh, gosh, we're getting a water heater, or when we got our roof, I was like, okay, it's time to open a card, because I know that I will instantly meet that spend. And so maybe it wasn't the time of the. Again, it wasn't optimizing, it wasn't the time of, like, the absolute best card. But that can be a way to kind of hedge for that.
- [47:16]
Brad
Yeah.
- [47:17]
Ginger
And then here's another idea I have. I don't know, people might not like it. I'm going to share it anyway, which is, okay, My husband and I put aside money every month to give to charity, but we don't give it out every month. And so it builds up, right. Until we decide, like, oh, okay, we're going to make this donation. And I've always had in the back of my mind, like, if I'm $500 short, I'm probably going to give this to give directly anyway, which is a great charity you should go check out. Right. So I'll just do that now. Right. Like, as a backup, I can always just make a charitable donation. Now. I get that. Maybe that's like, to me, that's great because I'm going to give that money to that charity anyway. So it doesn't really matter if that happens this month or next month. But I could also see, hey, maybe this isn't great because you could probably put a debit card in and then they're not having to pay the extra $15 or whatever. So I get that you're not optimizing for the charity in that way if you're paying for a credit card instead of a debit card. Although do they still have to pay the fees for a debit card?
- [48:27]
Brad
That's a good question. I do not know.
- [48:29]
Ginger
Yeah, that might be true. And if that is the case, then whatever, use your credit card. But I think it's always been a nice safety net for me knowing, like, oh, I'm not going to feel pressure to make some purchase that I'm not ready to do because I always know if I don't meet that spend, I'll just give some money away that I was going to give away anyway.
- [48:49]
Brad
Cool. I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah, really good tips. I don't think anybody's going to get mad at you, so don't worry. And yeah, I think what's kind of fun, and we're, you know, we've been talking about minimalism and looking for these little improvements. Like, I would kind of challenge everybody out there listening is just look for little ways that you can improve your life. Like, look for little pain points. And again, the journey to fi is not only about the money. Like, to me, it's about just living a better life. And, and I, I just look for, like, little ways, little things that annoy me in my own life. And I'm not looking for the negative. I think that's a bad way to go through life. But just, like, what are little things that I can improve on? Like just even tiny things. Ginger, this is going to sound so silly, but, like, I used to carry around a wallet with a whole bunch of cards in there, and it was just annoying. And really, in this day and age, like, I'm not carrying around cash. I haven't had a dollar in cash in a very long time. And all these cards were just taking up space. I think now I added like a little magnetic, tiny little wallet to my phone and I just have in there one credit card, my driver's license, and my insurance card. Though, frankly, I could put my insurance card, I could put a bunch of that stuff in Google Wallet or Google Pay at this point. Or I guess, you know, people with Apple can do Apple Pay and such. But that Google Wallet is also neat. Like, I was able to put my AAA card in there. You can put a ton of different things and not actually have to hold these. But I even think of it something like my library card. Okay. I've been Schlepping this thing around for forever in my wallet. And how often do I go to the library? Even I go to the library a decent bit for most normal people, but I don't go that often. If I go once a month, it's a lot. So what did I do? I put it in my glove compartment. I put it in my glove box in my car. Because literally every single time I go to the library, I have to drive myself there. So I just grab it. And at my new place, like, when I check my mail, it's outside and it's a little ways down the road. So I have my key for the mailbox in my car also, because invariably when I'm going to check the mail, it's when I'm just getting out of my car. So I leave that in there. But, yeah, and ginger, like, again, these tiny little things, like, I now just walk around with. All I have is my phone and this tiny little magnetic thing that's attached. And even, frankly, sometimes that's a little too big. And I just, like, hold the magnetic thing in my one pocket, my phone in my back pocket. And it fits perfectly in these shorts that I have. Again, with my recreating my. My wardrobe. I got five pairs of these athletic shorts off Amazon, and they're fantastic. And even, like, I optimize for, like, oh, how does my phone fit in the pocket? And it fits fantastic. So again, these are all silly things. And I suspect, like, somebody's rolling their eyes. They're like, oh, this is what he's thinking about. Like, this is how, you know, oh, poor me. Like, my life is so difficult. Like, and I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying, like, I am just looking for these little improvements and, like, what are just little tiny pain points in your life? And how can you look for, like, just a little workaround that you might not have thought of because you've done it this way forever. I've always carried my library card. I've always carried a keychain with seven different keys on it. And, like, I don't need to do that anymore. Like, the pool for my community here. Like, the pool's only open for a couple months in the summer. I don't need to carry that key all year round. So I leave that on the same keychain with the library card. So it's just these little things.
- [52:15]
Ginger
I love this. I think it ties back to what you said earlier in the episode when I was talking about paying off my house and you said, well, yeah, this should be fun. And that's totally the reason that we're doing that. Like, it is really fun because we haven't been at a place in our life where we've been able to do something like this before where we've had enough extra that we could just throw it on the mortgage and, and that we could make that choice and that it could be for a goal that is really close that we can really see. It is fun. And I think that's kind of what this community is all about.
- [52:49]
Brad
Right.
- [52:50]
Ginger
So even the small stuff. Right. We're trying to have fun.
- [52:53]
Brad
Yes, we are trying to have fun. And yeah, Ginger. I guess kind of in closing a fun thing that's going on kind of behind the scenes here at Choose Of High is Jonathan, my old co host here at choose of I for the first five years, co founder of choose if I. He has been creating something really amazing at our website and hopefully will be an app pretty soon. And it's basically what we've always had these Facebook groups for. Like the main Facebook group on Shoes of I has. I forgot. It's something like 120,000 people. And we have all of our. Our local groups on Facebook. And that's been a source of frustration for a lot of people who frankly don't want to have anything to do with Facebook. Never get notifications because Facebook throttles so many posts and such. And Jonathan's built what he's calling our choose of a local platform. And it's really more than that, frankly. And it will become much more than that. But that's the easiest way to think about it right now. And we just passed 10,000 people who signed up for this. So it's still a tiny fraction of the 120,000 who have been on Facebook. But now that's naturally over eight plus years. But if you're listening to this and you have not signed up for it yet, we're not trying to sell anything. Of course it's free. Just like everything at Choose a Vi, just go to choose a vi.com and right smack in the middle of the homepage, create your free account. Then there's login for the next time you want to come back. And the cool thing Jonathan just created and literally just sent out as we're recording this, the first weekly digest. And what's neat is you'll get an email every single week and it will show all your local events and all the activity in all these threads of hey, I posted in there. And these are the replies. I got that I might not have seen like Jonathan is a wizard with technology and he's now able to personalize all these emails. So you're going to see what's going on in my choose of my local group. And really my ask to you, if you're listening to this, is if you haven't signed up and you're a part of the choose of I community, now's the time to stand up and be involved and just literally sign up for this free account. And hopefully if you're not seeing any local events in your area, then you can stand up and create some. You can get in touch with the local admin of your local group who frankly, like while, yeah, we've gotten in touch with the local admins, like when they see that people are on this, they're going to be incentivized to get off of the Facebook group and come to the Choose a Buy platform. And the cool thing is even in 2025, ginger and this sounds crazy, like email is the best way to get in touch with people, certainly people in our community. And when a choose a by local event is created in your area, you will get emailed. So you're not again beholden to the stupid Facebook algorithm where maybe you see 1% of the events that are created. You get to see every single one and you can respond right there in your email. Jonathan created this so you can RSVP right there. You'll get reminder emails again. You'll get this weekly digest that'll tell you what's going on. Like you will never miss a local event ever again. And really now this is behavioral of like, we all need to make this a success. Jonathan built it and we need to create these events in the local group. So please, admins, if you're listening to this and you don't know how to do this or need some help, just reach out to me. Feedbackus.com if you are in a local group and you haven't had an event recently, like create one again, you could reach out to us. You could stand up and say, I want to be an admin. My local group has kind of gone dormant after Covid and whatnot. Like I want to stand up and be an admin. Please. This is the time. So we have built it. We built something that I'm. Well, I haven't built anything. Jonathan's built it. But I'm really proud of this and I think it's something really, really special. But at this point we need you. We need you to get in there and comment on threads, create threads Ask questions. We're going to have a lot of ability to have our amazing friends and experts answer all the questions. It's going to be this flywheel where we're getting more really wonderful, involved questions about fi, about the journey, about different aspects real estate and who knows, health and wellness or sequence of returns. Like when you ask a question and you can get a world class expert to answer it. Again, this flywheel of we're going to get more questions come in. We're going to be able to send more of these out in this local digest. So you're going to see, oh wow. Chad Carson answered this question on real estate or Carsten answered this on safe withdrawal rates. I'm promising this. You know, I've spoken with them in passing. But Cody Garrett is going to answer tons of questions as a cfp. Like you're going to be able to get this and like there's something really special going on, Ginger. And we're at that inflection point where now's the time it's been built and we need people to come in and just get involved. And I think that's what the choose of I community has always been great at and has just been astonishing over the last eight years. And I've never seen a community like this. And I'm just really excited that we've finally been able to build something that that is good enough for the FI community. And not only is it good enough, I think this thing has huge potential.
- [58:00]
Ginger
Yes. Brad actually joining the new site has inspired me to go to my first meetup.
- [58:07]
Brad
Ooh.
- [58:08]
Ginger
Yeah. We haven't even talked about that. So I do think because there is just. I just never went to the Facebook site for a lot of different reasons. And so I think for a lot of us this can be a really clear, like now's the time, like Brad said. So hop on there and see what's going on in your local group.
- [58:25]
Brad
Oh, I love that. I absolutely love that. And yeah, it's just neat. I've seen so many of the local groups have just a ton of activity recently and yeah, it's just great seeing a lot of these case studies. I know someone reached out to me the other day. He went to his first choose of I local group and it was actually the one that my brother runs in Wisconsin and he's like, here's a picture of our group. You might recognize one of the people. And I'm like, oh, there's Scott. This is wild. So, yeah, just really, really cool stuff. Yeah. I think the local groups have always been the heartbeat of Choose a vi and I think this is really going to make a difference. So. All right, Ginger, as always, we never know where these roundups are going to take us. I think this is a really fun conversation. I think we covered a lot of interesting things. Food for thought for a lot of people to really just kind of look at their own lives and think about how does this impact me. All right, until next time, thanks for being part of the choose of that community and thanks for listening.
- [59:22]
Jonathan
Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the Choosetify community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player. Just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choosefi.com subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the the newsletter list right there and I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox.
- [59:58]
Brad
So that's the way that I keep.
- [59:59]
Jonathan
A pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a vi local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a vi.com local and you'll find a list of all of Those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with FI or you have a family member or friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways choose a VI episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community. And even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what what is financial independence? What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life and then choose if I created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free, just head to choose a vi.comfi101 and again, thanks for listening.
- [61:05]
Brad
It.