604 | Getting Personal With Personal Finance: Bill Yount

Summary

---

ChooseFI Episode 604: Getting Personal With Personal Finance – Bill Yount

Date: June 22, 2026
Host: Ginger (ChooseFI)
Guest: Bill Yount (Catching Up to Fi Podcast)

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the personal journey of Bill Yount, co-host of the Catching Up to Fi podcast, which focuses on late starters pursuing financial independence (FI). Rather than recounting Bill’s well-known backstory, the conversation zooms in on Bill’s current transition into FI—earlier than he expected—and the emotional complexities of FI, including identity, fear, and redefining purpose after achieving financial goals. The episode offers relatable insights, emotional honesty, and wisdom for listeners at any stage in their FI journey.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Bill's FI Origin: Waking Up Late and Course-Correcting

• “The emphasis, as we say on late starter is on the starting, not being late.” (03:18, Bill)
• Bill describes "waking up" to personal finance at 50 after being sued and recognizing he was house-poor, burned out, and had made major financial missteps:
  • Overspenders: “We had YOLO’d life very well. My boat was named YOLO...” (03:36, Bill)
  • Mistakes: Heavy mortgage after 2007, low savings rate, sold stocks at the bottom of the market (“trifecta of mistakes”—03:48)
• The shift happened swiftly:
  • “Our savings rate went from single digits to 30 to 40% almost overnight.” (06:47, Bill)
  • Strategic changes included living on one income, wife returning to work, solo 401(k)s, tracking money, setting written goals: “Once we had a map, the math worked. The math is the easy part.” (07:33, Bill)

---

The Power of Mindset & Emotional Transformation

• Initial FI quest driven by negative emotions: “You start with a bunch of negative emotions—the fear, the shame, the regret, the anger. And how do you turn that around?” (08:49, Bill)
• Mindset shift required:
  • Transforming scarcity into abundance
  • Lifestyle changes: geo-arbitrage, downsizing, “cutting to where it’s comfortable... and then you grow your income” (09:10, Bill)
• The journey to FI brought lightness rather than deprivation:
  • “It wasn’t as hard as we thought. It felt good and lightening... Very freeing, actually.” (12:12, Bill)
• Emotional processing:
  • “The anger part is important to process. You have to let go of the past and the past mistakes—they’re only going to hold you back on the journey.” (10:41, Bill)

---

Partnership and Family Dynamics

• Bill’s wife as partner: “This is a partnership. It’s a business partnership as much as it is an emotional partnership...the thing that she loves about this are the people.” (12:57, Bill)
• Kids and “rich doctor” lifestyle: “As late starters, we may not have mentored our kids as well as we should have. So we’re a little bit in recovery mode...” (13:53, Bill)
• Dispelling myths: “At 60, there are 25% of doctors that aren’t even millionaires...more zeros, more problems, in a way.” (14:06, Bill)

---

The "Fog of FI": Confusion After Hitting the Number

• Unexpected emotional ambiguity upon reaching FI:
  • “I still don’t believe the math. It’s really hard for me to believe that we’re set and I could leave the job.” (15:13, Bill)
  • The “Fogo FI”: fear of getting out
  • Struggling with identity and next steps: “The emotions have to catch up to the math, and you have to wrap your head around, ‘OK, who am I going to be when I leave work?’” (15:54, Bill)
• Taking action in small steps (encouraged by mentors):
  • “Immediately after that...I wrote an email to my regional director and...I’m going to cut two shifts...I’ve started to peel the onion a little bit, and it feels really good.” (16:50, Bill)

---

Identity, Work, and Finding Meaning

• Deep ties between professional identity and reluctance to leave:
  • “Your identity is a little wrapped up in the value you provide for patients...and the work relationships that you have...” (17:31, Bill)
  • Emotional weight of the work: “The day-to-day part of my work is actually very sad. I go to a place where people are having the worst day of their lives...” (17:43, Bill)
  • Looking ahead, Bill wants to transition from “emergency health care to financial wellness and financial wealth care.” (18:06, Bill)
• Importance of being intentional with time and money in the “go-go” years:
  • “Life is precious. Time is precious. It’s a nonrenewable resource...Are you spending money according to your values and are you spending your time according to how you want to spend it?” (23:26, Bill)

---

Navigating One-More-Year Syndrome & Community Pressure

• Bill feels externally pressured but asserts the importance of his own pace:
  • “Everyone is saying this...but in the fog of FI...it needs to be processed. It is a transition. It’s confusing, it’s disorienting, it’s like flying upside down in the clouds.” (25:20, Bill)
• Wisdom from intergenerational meetups:
  • “Late starting is not an age...it’s really an emotion, a feeling, it’s a vulnerability...” (27:33, Bill)
• Importance of connection: “You can’t recover from a late start without joining hands with others, finding a community. And there wasn’t one.” (27:48, Bill)

---

Lessons from Other Late Starters

• Common limiting beliefs:
  • “The too late belief is a very common one...It’s always the right time to start.” (31:24, Bill)
  • Leverage advantages: higher income, catch-up contributions, focus, wisdom
• Overcoming shame:
  • “Often we live as a silent generation in shame, as a lost generation. And stepping out of that...realizing you’re not alone is a powerful force.” (54:09, Bill)

---

Shifting Beliefs and Reframing Money

• Transforming scarcity mindset:
  • “For me, one of the things that was attached [to money] was fear...But money, in many ways, is infinite. It is flow. It is potential energy that you store. It’s not something you own, and you don’t want it to own you.” (38:16, Bill)
  • On goal setting: “The three things that lead to being a late starter are lack of goals, lack of values, and lack of financial literacy and skills.” (39:50, Bill)

---

What Bill Wishes 40-Year-Old Bill Had Done

• “If you get your money right on the front end and you live a balanced life and save earlier, you can buy back your time earlier in life.” (46:54, Bill)
• Regrets less about paths not taken, more focus on spending time and making intentional choices
• “Don’t live the life that somebody...wants for you. Carve your own path, get out of the tracks of the guy in front of you, and go down the mountain your own way.” (47:46, Bill)

---

On Health, Aging, and 80-Year-Old Bill

• “I may be financially lean and fit, but physically I’m not necessarily lean and fit. It’s harder as you get older...If it’s really important to me, I’ll do it. And it’s become really important to me.” (40:59, Bill)
• On doctors neglecting their own health: “That’s absolutely true...it’s not conducive to taking care of your health. But we own that.” (42:49 & 45:59, Bill)

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the value of community:
  “Community, friendships, that’s been the best part of the journey.” (13:24, Bill)
• On finding purpose in retirement:
  “The journey to retirement is a much more internal journey where self-worth and wealth come from the inside out.” (19:40, Bill)
• On giving back:
  “We put our oxygen masks on, we've reached our number. How can we help our kids in their 20s transfer wealth to them so that they have the least capacity to earn and the biggest need to save and invest?” (21:27, Bill)
• On overcoming inertia:
  “Giving up saving is really hard. You become addicted to it, you have savings inertia and it’s hard to slow that down and turn on the spending valve.” (24:20, Bill)
• On cross-generational connection:
  “Having relationships across generations is, I think, one of the keys to life. Mentor the young, learn from the older and the wiser.” (42:06, Bill)
• On the power of small change:
  “You don’t have to have this big, hairy, audacious goal...it’s absolutely true. The parable of the starfish...it made a difference for that one.” (49:07, Bill)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Bill’s FI Origin, Mistakes, and Initial Mindset:
  • 03:18 - 07:46
• Positive Outcomes and Emotional Shifts:
  • 08:48 - 12:46
• Spousal Partnership & Family Dynamic:
  • 12:47 - 14:44
• Reaching FI & Facing the Fogo of FI:
  • 14:44 - 19:40
• Process of Stepping Back at Work, Identity, Purpose:
  • 19:40 - 24:17
• Handling Pressure, Individual Timing, and Community:
  • 25:04 - 28:32
• Beliefs Holding Back Late Starters:
  • 31:24 - 33:41
• Changing Beliefs About Money:
  • 38:16 - 40:46
• Advice to Younger Self & Listeners:
  • 46:25 - 49:07
• Travel and Experiences, Power of Relationships:
  • 54:53 - 59:33

---

Notable, Actionable Insights

• Start where you are; it’s never too late—and the journey begins with tracking and intentionality, not math.
• The emotional transition into FI (“the fog of FI”) is real: it requires patience, community, and a willingness to be vulnerable.
• Community and sharing vulnerability are crucial—FI is not a solo sport.
• Cultivate both financial and non-financial forms of capital (health, relationships, purpose).
• Don’t be afraid to seek help, mentorship, or even professional advice—DIY isn’t always best at every stage.
• Use money to align with values: invest in experiences and people, not just numbers.
• Give yourself grace and accept that the transition may be slow, nonlinear, and emotionally complex.

---

Closing Thoughts

Bill’s story is an inspiring real-world example of both the practical and deeply emotional sides of pursuing and living FI, especially as a late starter. This episode is as much about overcoming regret, redefining success, and embracing community as it is about numbers and strategy.

“You only have one life. Leave it all on the table in that one precious life.” (35:59, Bill)

---

Recommended Next Steps:

• Check out the Catching Up to Fi podcast for more stories and resources for late starters.
• Reflect on your own limiting beliefs—what may be “invisible” but holding you back?
• Engage with community, seek advice, and remember: “It’s always the right time to start.”

---

Transcript

[A]

Hi, everyone, it's Ginger. And today we're doing another Get Personal with Personal Finance interview. It is my great honor to have Bill Yount on the show today. I bet many, many of you know of Bill. He's one of the excellent hosts, along with Jackie Cummings Koski, of Catching up to Fi, a podcast specifically aimed at late starters in our community. I have listened to Bill and Jackie's podcast for years, but the funny thing is I'm not a late starter. And consequently, I have asked myself from time to time why I am listening to this show when there are, I don't know, 60 million other podcasts I could be listening to. But here's the thing. Even though Catching up to Fi highlights the struggles and triumphs of those getting a later start, I think it's really a podcast for all of us. Who doesn't want to be inspired, who doesn't love listening to a hard won victory. And I think that hard won part is the key, the point, the heart of the show. The guests on Catching up to Fi are people you really root for and people who would root for you. I believe that's true because there's a vulnerability in these stories that makes you feel like, hey, we're all in this together on this path to financial independence. Sure. And just in life. Bill has fostered that vulnerability on his show, not only by being an empathetic listener, but by sharing his own mistakes, his own setbacks. And not just that. He shared how his thinking has changed and how it continues to evolve. And that's why I'm so excited to have him on the show. Today. I'll ask Bill briefly to tell us about his journey to Phi. But you've all probably heard that part before, and if you haven't, those episodes are easy to find. But today I want to talk to Bill about this very interesting place. He finds himself now at Phi, a little earlier than he expected, confused by his own feelings, maybe, and having new kinds of thoughts. I want to talk to Bill while he's in the midst of this process because I am so eager for us to learn from him. So we'll explore this time in Bill's life. And don't worry, early starters, middle starters, late starters. I will ask Bill to share all his Fi wisdom so that all of us can have an easier go at it. I don't know Bill, but I think I know Bill and I think he wants this for us too. And with that, welcome to Choose Fi.

[B]

Before we get started, I keep this podcast entirely ad free for two reasons. First, this is a FI podcast and I don't want to promote products that I don't want you to buy in the first place. And second, I really like the clean listening experience of a show where you don't have to fast forward ads to keep it ad free. All I ask of you as a listener is the next time you open a travel rewards credit card, go to choosefi.com cards and with that onto the show.

[A]

Bill, I am really excited to have you here and I am really excited for our listeners to get to hear a little bit more about you and about where you are at. So as promised, let's go ahead and dive in a little bit with this idea of the late starter and how you kind of got started on this path to financial independence.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, just briefly. I was 50 when I woke up. I got sued. I'm an emergency medicine physician. There was a shock, as is often the case with late starters. I was burned out. I wanted out, but I couldn't get out. I had to deal with the regret, remorse, the shame, the anger of doing what I had done, but then also the joy of all the memories I had. So we had done it wrong. We had spent first and saved last, as is often the case with late starters. And we'd had a lot of fun. You know, we had YOLO'd life very well. My boat was named YOLO and that's the first episode of Catching up to Five. But then we made a bunch of mistakes. You know, we were house poor because we had renovated the house in 2007 and were underwater after that, had a huge mortgage, we had a very low savings rate and we sold out in the market to bonds at the bottom of the market. I call that the trifecta of mistakes. So we didn't have a gap or a savings rate. We were single digit savers. And then we woke up and like everybody, we went down the rabbit hole, learned all the information. But I found myself in analysis paralysis. You can't read two shelves of books without taking action. It doesn't take much to get started. And the emphasis, as we say on late starter is on the starting and not being late. And so we ended up in the middle of the journey. Did the work, created the portfolio, did the mental, emotional and mathematical work. It was a long slogan. And lo and behold, at age 60, we exited into the light, as we'll talk about, Met a financial advisor, ran the numbers, we were told we were fi and I kind of went whoopee. But big whoop. What now? What's next. And you know, that is the journey to fi. But then that's really only the beginning. I'm in what's called the fog of Phi or Fogo Phi, as I say, fear of getting out, exiting the job, and all the emotional identity and mathematical crises here. So that's the story in brief. Let's go where you want to go with it.

[A]

Okay, well, I want to back up a little bit before we get to the fogo. You know, one thing I've always found really interesting about you is you've been really upfront about, and correct me these parts that I've got wrong here, but I feel like if I asked you what your savings rate was when you were 40, you would say, I don't know. Right. I feel like I've heard you say, I didn't know what my net worth was. Right. Like, so you were really on that extreme of kind of hoping it would be okay and maybe a little bit on autopilot. But then this change that happens. You didn't kind of go a little bit in or you didn't learn like a little bit about personal finance. Right. You really took a deep dive. And I wonder, what do you think accounts for that? Because I bet it's not just fear. And then also, do you remember specifics around that? Around, like some of those first actions that you took?

[C]

Yeah. As you said, At 40 and 50, I had no idea what a net worth was. I had no idea what our expenses were. I had no idea what our assets were. I didn't know where our money was and. And I didn't really know where it was going. It was trickling through our fingers in a single digit savings rate. And honestly, at 50, I didn't do the math. I just knew the emotion. I knew I needed to get started. And as I went down the rabbit hole, I realized the importance of tracking the money. Where was it, where was it going? Was it intentionally going and being spent on values? Was I saving up front? And our savings rate went from single digits to 30 to 40% almost overnight. And the reasons for that, in part were my wife went back to work full time. So we saved everything she did. We lived on one income and saved all of hers. We had the ability to save a lot into solo 401s. So there were the tools for us. And so there was really a transformation. We flipped the script, we inverted life. Just like Charlie Munger says, when you need to solve a problem, start at the end and work backwards. And we set goals, we made a plan. We had an investor policy statement. We wrote it down, we signed it, we committed to it. And once we had a map, the math worked. You know, the math is the easy part. And after 10 years of doing what we were doing, the math worked and we exited into numerical financial independence. But, you know, freedom of time is a whole nother thing.

[A]

Well, one thing that kind of strikes me when I hear you talk about this is you have a lot of, like, enthusiasm or like, it seems like positive emotions about that time in your life. And we often talk about the sacrifices that people make in order to have a high savings rate. And I wonder if we could talk a little bit more specifically about what are some of the positive things that came out of this for you during that time? It wasn't just the numbers, right? Did it bring you more peace to know that it was going to be okay? Or what were the other positive things that came out of this? Even though we usually think of like, oh, it was probably pretty hard to be cutting things or to not buy things that you maybe wanted to buy now that you had more money because your wife was working.

[C]

Yeah, that's the elephant in the room because you start with a bunch of negative emotions, as I said, the fear, the shame, the regret, the anger. And how do you turn that around? How do you flip the script? It's from a mindset of scarcity into a mindset of abundance. And the things you have to do as a late starter are things like geo arbitrage. Lower your cost of living globally, deflate your lifestyle, downsize your house, your cars, your food, your travel. You're cutting expenses, but you can't cut them to the bone. It isn't rice and beans forever. You want to live a balanced lifestyle. So yeah, you cut to where it's comfortable, it maybe hurts a little bit. Then you grow your income, you increase that gap, and then throw it on the fire of fire, you know, throw it into the market and trust the math and it becomes a journey. You have to enjoy the balanced life. We see a lot of people be too frugal and too deprivation oriented. And then as late starters, we were a little bit too yolo. You got to find that middle ground. And I think we did. And when we shed a lot of this weight, really, it's like losing weight and going from obese to fit and right. Sizing your life without overdoing it. It felt good. It's like unloading the things that you've collected. There's less weight to carry. The trampings of lifestyle and you know, you walk sort of this lightness of being after that. I mean, it isn't easy. The messy middle, as we call it. You have to be patient with yourself. You have to forgive yourself and then realize that, you know, if you do things right in 10 or 15 years, you will get there. It's guaranteed.

[A]

Yeah, I'm curious about that word, anger. You said I had to kind of work through my anger. Was that directed at yourself or who is that directed towards?

[C]

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. There was no blame. But to myself, you know, how could I be so unconscious? How could I have my head stuck in the sand like Rip van winkle for 2020? I mean, life just happened and we got focused on a lot of things that had nothing to do with money. We didn't know how to deal with it at the beginning. And once you forget about it, all of a sudden you're in the funnel of life. You come out the other side as an empty nester and you wake up and go, wait, no one's going to save me. I need to save myself. So there were a lot of mixed emotions all along the way. And we struggle with our emotions through the journey. The anger part is important to process. You have to let go of the past and the past mistakes, they're only going to hold you back on the journey. Yes, you do need to focus on your freedom in the present, but you need to plan for the future. And that's what we lacked, was a plan for the future. We didn't get to know our future selves that we needed to take care of in addition to our present selves.

[A]

You hear a lot about with this idea of lifestyle creep, that it's a lot harder to go backward than forward, easier to put some little luxuries in your life, but once that luxury is there, it's hard to kind of backpedal and have less than you at one point had. Is that something that you ever struggled with of just feeling deprived because some of those things that you had once had that you no longer had?

[C]

Actually not. What was amazing was we saved more and our lifestyle didn't change a hell of a lot. We did downsize the house, we did geo arbitrage, we did go from Audis to Subarus, that kind of thing, and paid cash for cars. We did all the big rock things and it wasn't as hard as we thought. It felt good and lightning, as I said. So, no, interestingly, I just wondered where all the money went and when we started tracking it and watching it and paying attention. To it. Our budget was a reverse budget. Save first, save the 40% off the top, and then you got the freedom to spend the rest. And that was very freeing, actually.

[A]

You're including your wife. You're seeing a lot of we's. What did your wife really think about this big switcheroo? Was she totally on board right away with like, hey, we gotta change things, we gotta make a plan?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I was the failure as the cfo, but she's our chief visionary officer. I say she always focuses on, we need to live life in the present. And yes, we need to plan for the future, and yes, we need to be more prudent, but we don't need to overdo it. We locked arms. This is a partnership. It's a business partnership as much as it is an emotional partnership. She was on board. She went to campfires, economy conferences. She went to bogleheads. She went to fincon. We journeyed together. And the thing that she loves about this are the people. Because my life has exploded with friendships and relationships going down this rabbit hole. I mean, it has changed my life, not just financially, but in a much bigger way, personally. Community, friendships, that's been the best part of the journey.

[A]

And you were about 50 when you started to change some things. Did you still have kids in the house? How was that dynamic?

[C]

Yeah, my kids are now 26. When we woke up, my kids were just entering high school. So, yeah, we had those factors involved too. And it's very important because as late starters, we may not have mentored our kids as well as we should have. So we're a little bit in recovery mode because there was some rich doctor lifestyle and a bit of entitlement, but this rich doctor lifestyle is really a rich doctor syndrome. Yes, I'm a high income professional and the lifestyles are different and the numbers are different, but the math is the same. You know, people think doctors have it made, but what you may not know is at 60, there are 25% of doctors that aren't even millionaires. The people with lower numbers get there before doctors do. It's really amazing people to understand that there is sort of, you know, more zeros, more problems, in a way.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, well, let's go to the Fogo. I heard you talk a little bit on your podcast about, okay, you sat in this room and this financial planner said to you, a hundred percent safety, like, you've got it, you're there. Congratulations. And you maybe had some mixed emotions or maybe you had some excitement, and it didn't last. Very long. I don't know. Can you kind of talk us through that a little bit? Bit. What that was like for you?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, you've been running a marathon and you cross the goal line and you're like, okay, what's next? I still don't believe the math. It's really hard for me to believe that we're set and I could leave the job. And my wife, the first thing she said was, well, you can't complain about going to work tomorrow. The reality of it was I wasn't ready for it. I had sort of rule of thumbed it to 62, 63, and sort of holding on in a job that was really kind of. It's emergency medicine. It's a little toxic. After time, I can't even watch the pit because Too close. It's too real. It's too close. I let the lay public understand that this is what I do. And when my friends watch it, they say, how do you do this? You need to get out. And I've been talking about getting out for a long time, but here I am struggling with that action and taking action on it. It's not a cliff. It's kind of a glide path of sorts. You know, in some ways, the one more year syndrome gets a bad rap. But when you really talk to people about it, most people go through a one or two more year syndrome because the emotions have to catch up to the math, and you have to wrap your head around, okay, who am I going to be when I leave work? Have I prepared for that first phase of retirement? And luckily, I have. And lo and behold, after talking to Doc G, after talking to Fritz Gilbert, after talking to Frank Vasquez, some of my mentors in this space, the one question that Doc G or Jordan asked me was, okay, can you give me a good reason why you would go to work tomorrow?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Or why you wouldn't cut shifts? And I sat there and I said, no, I can't give you a good reason. Immediately after that, just like Brad says, you know, take action. What's an actionable step? I wrote an email to my regional director, and I said, you know what? As of June, I'm going to cut two shifts. And so I've started to peel the onion a little bit, and it feels really good. You know, I'll get there eventually.

[A]

But importantly, you said, I didn't have any good reasons. But you had reasons. And you have reasons that you're still going. Right. Like, you cut back, but you have reasons you're still going can you articulate what those are?

[C]

Yeah, it's really interesting because when your identity has been genetically tied up in being a doctor because you worked so long and so hard and other people can say the same thing to become this, and you get to the quote unquote twilight of your career, where you're going to pass the torch. No, your identity is a little wrapped up in the value you provide for patience. It's wrapped up in the work relationships that you have where you're in it together. You're all in this trying to make sense out of chaos of the emergency department together. What I realized too is the day to day part of my work is actually very sad. I mean, I go to a place where people are having the worst day of their lives. They're at their most fearful, their most anxious. Am I having a stroke? Am I having a heart attack? Do I have cancer? And then unfortunately, I get to tell people that these things are happening. And that doesn't feel so good. So I'm looking forward to the transition from kind of emergency health care to financial wellness and financial wealth care. I mean, the gratitude in helping people get control of their money and their lives and get their life back is like the birth of a baby as opposed to telling somebody that you have cancer. So there are a lot of reasons to exit and I'll be ready for it in the next year or two.

[A]

I mean, the reason you did give, you went back to reasons to get out, which was interesting. But the reason you did give initially was you said, okay, like this is part of my identity is like helping people and being part of this team. And I hear you when you say I'm witnessing people on the worst day of their lives. Right. But at the same time, when people are that vulnerable, you get to be the person who walks alongside them and helps them. And I imagine even as that's like, can be very sad, as you said, it can also be very meaningful. And so I imagine you're saying that's the part. Right. Like, I want to get this meaning piece figured out a little bit more before I jump into the time abyss.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, the journey to Phi, the accumulation journey, that scarcity to abundance journey, is kind of more of an external journey. And the journey to retirement is a much more internal journey where self worth and wealth come from the inside out. And there's no exoskeleton of like, look what I've accomplished in life holding you up. It's really a very internal journey. Moving into the Phi space.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so I'm interested in your answer to this because I just talked to Brad. It will be like, I don't know, a couple episodes ago, we talked about this where Brad always says, okay, once you hit your number and you can do anything you want with your day, why would you choose of these billions of options to do the job that you have been doing for years or decades? Right. Like, it just doesn't make sense. And I had said to him, well, you're leaving out an important part here because people aren't saying, I'm gonna go back to work and do it for free now. Right. Like most people. That does not sound appealing. Like, at the end of the day, there is some part of, like, having that paycheck provides something for them. It provides some extra security. Even if that's just mental, right? Like, even if it's not. Like, you said, hey, we're at 100% safe withdrawal. Is that right? Did I say that? Weird.

[C]

100% chance of success. Yeah.

[A]

So I was like, that did not sound right. Yes. Like, even when, hey, the numbers and everyone's telling me it's super safe, maybe actually working longer, right. I am still getting paid. And there's part of that that feels good. I wonder what your response to this is. Like a. Does it feel good to still be making money? Like, is that doing something for you?

[C]

Yeah, there's positives and negatives to that. I mean, at this point, I call the money I make now dirty money. It's kind of money that we don't need at some levels, but it can serve a purpose. There's flexibility as things happen, there's sequence of returns, risk mitigation, where you can upshift or downshift. And I'm fortunate that I can work four shifts or I can work eight or 10 shifts. So there's flexibility. And I also focused immediately upon finding refi on giving. I flipped the switch. You know, we put our oxygen masks on, we've reached our number. How can we help our kids in their 20s transfer wealth to them so that, you know, they have the least capacity to earn and the biggest need to save and invest, to grow things. So we're trying to do a living giving plan to help them fill up their Roth IRAs or their HSAs and augment their savings. They certainly have skin in the game, and as their incomes grow, they'll take over that role. But, you know, our focus is on giving now. And, you know, the flexibility is good. The physical nature of it, you know, the 12 hour shifts, the nights, the Weekends, the holidays. That has gotten very old. What's also happening, it's interesting, is that all of a sudden my life outside of work is getting filled up with all these things, experiences and people and opportunities for collaboration and it's kind of starting to crowd out work. The reason I'm cutting shifts is I need more time to do the things I've started before retirement because there's only 24 hours in a and 365 days in a year. It's like the sandwich generation of work and fi where one is playing off of the other and buying back my time is a very good thing.

[A]

So how much longer are you going to keep doing it? Are you 60 now? You said your original plan was 62.

[C]

I am 60, yes. And that's another threshold where it's like, you know, we're entering our go go years. This is where things like travel, you know, I'm not going to get this season back and we are going to slow down. And you do feel the aging process. I've seen friends of mine die suddenly or get cancer in their 50s or 60s and people don't think about these things. You know, life is precious. Time is precious. It's a non renewable resource. How do you want to spend it? You know, you look at your calendar and your money and are you spending money according to your values and are spending your time according to how you want to spend it and you really have to do an audit and of which one's more important? How do I manage my money so that my calendar is how I want it to be?

[A]

Bill, I can tell you've thought about this a lot. You've got all the right answers. All you're doing is convincing me you need to quit tomorrow. What are you talking about?

[C]

Everybody says this. No, it's the FOMO of fi where, you know, you see all these people doing this stuff and am I doing that as well? And I'm okay with where I'm at. I see it as a gradual, let's turn down the active income as we turn up the passive income. Let's live a life where we're living only on the money we earn and not saving anymore. Giving up saving is really hard. You become addicted to it, you have savings inertia and it's hard to slow that down and turn on the spending valve. Well, we don't have a problem with spending. Actually, in some ways, one of my fears is overspending in retirement. And that's one of the many reasons we took on a financial advisor Believe it or not.

[A]

So you said everyone is telling you to get out. Now is that true? Is there anyone in your life who kind of supports your slower movement out of the workforce or who thinks, hey, you should be more careful?

[C]

No, everyone's saying it, but I don't think in the fog of fi, which means the fear of getting out, it needs to be processed. It is a transition. It's a transformation. Just like the transformation I had getting into the financial independence space out of a YOLO life into sort of a, you know, intentional balanced life, an approach to money. So this is a transition. I acknowledge that it is confusing, it's disorienting, it's like flying upside down in the clouds a little bit and I will come out the other side. But. But it's not a cliff. It's not, you know, a one day to the next decision. You know what's interesting with regards to late starters and something you said earlier was we had a meetup recently at economy and then I met a 24 year old in the room along with a 70 year old and we put him side by side for a picture. And I asked the 24 year old, why are you in a late starter meetup? What is going on here? And he said, you know, I want to learn from other people's mistakes and what it's like to get to that point and transition through that point. And I'm looking for the wisdom that the late starters have. I was like, you are amazing. You are going to have a great life. Look at how early you're starting. I talked to the 70 year old and I said, do you have any regrets about being 70 and now exiting the workforce? And he said, not at all. It was all the journey. I enjoyed the journey. And now, you know, I recently had five stents put in my heart and it delayed my goal to climb to base camp at Mount Everest just by a year. And he's going, and I said, are you going to wear a Catching up to Phi T shirt at base camp? And he said, absolutely, if you send me one. So I did, and I can't wait to see the picture, you know, the spectrum of Phi or late Phi. Because late starting is not an age. I mean, yes, there is an age to it and there's math to it, but it's really an emotion, a feeling, it's a vulnerability. And as you said, in sharing our vulnerabilities, whatever it is in life as a late starter, I mean, I came out of the closet as a doctor late starter. And I remember it very well. January of 2023, I published a blog edited by Jonathan Clements and his Humble Dollar blog, Saving Our Retirement. Shortly thereafter, I started the podcast because what happened was nobody in this space, in this financial independence space, was speaking to me. Nobody was speaking to late starters. You feel very alone and you can't recover from a late start without, you know, joining hands with others, finding a community. And there wasn't one because I was watching 30 year olds, 40 year olds, 50 year olds, my peers retire, and I was just getting started. That was hard.

[A]

What I hear you saying, as I'm pushing against this idea of the glide path, everyone is saying that I should quit, but I'm going to do this the way that feels good to me. And that is so valid. Even if you say, oh, I don't have any good reasons, maybe your good reason is you're doing it at a pace that feels good to you and you put yourself in a position where that can be the thing that drives your decisions.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I'm talking to people about it regularly. I think about it at work a lot. And if I have a really bad day, then I feel like I should quit tomorrow. And so it's on my mind all the time and I have to try and find comfort in this. And, you know, we all walk our own journey. We all do you, so to speak, or do me. I don't think I'm doing it wrong. I'm finding my way. I'm getting guidance too, and I'm becoming the mentor. What's really cool, one of the things I enjoy about work is I have the young people there where I can support them in their journey. I'm the senior physician. I am the Yoda now, and I'm learning to be Yoda. I'm not Luke Skywalker anymore. I've done that journey and I'm looking forward to the next space. You know, Richard Rohr in Falling Upwards talks about this journey in his book as two separate chapters in life. I'm on the bridge between those two chapters. It's a fantastic book. We all need to read books like this to understand the journey. Because if life is in two parts, it's also in many seasons. And we need to appreciate that and embrace the season you're in. And that's what I'm trying to do.

[A]

Yeah, I can tell you appreciate that this transition isn't an easy one. And you know, I liked what you said about I'm talking to other people, that you're willing to be influenced still by other people's. Stories and other people who have kind of gone through this transition. We hear a lot about people who feel depressed after they retire. And so I can appreciate some of your carefulness there. To be like, hey, I want to do this in a way that's going to be not the most efficient, but the way that's going to make the most sense for me. That's going to be most satisfying to me.

[C]

Well, it isn't just my journey either. My wife still works largely full time and it's something that we need to do together. And we're dialoguing about this a lot because she needs to slow down. You know, our energy is waning a little bit in some ways with regards to work. I mean, she has a practice with, she's a psychiatrist. A lot of patients and it's hard to wind that down. It's a little different for me than her with doing shifts. So it's a journey we do together. It's not in isolation or in a silo. Phi is not about one person.

[A]

Well, that gives us a nice way to transition into sort of what you have learned from doing the podcast and from talking to so many people who have been late starters. What are the beliefs that you have noticed that hold back the late starter? Right. Like an obvious one would be it's too late. It's too late for me. Right. What's the point of even starting? Are there other beliefs that you have noticed that people have that sort of get in their way?

[C]

Yeah, the too late belief is a very common one. And we always say our tagline at the end of the show is it's always the right time to start. It's better late than never. And you know, we can catch up to fi together. So yes, we need to overcome those limiting beliefs and starting a little bit at a time. The 1% better with small amounts and growing those amounts. Build the muscle until you're financially fit and the engine's running well. You have a lot to overcome, but you have a lot of experience, you have a lot of wisdom, you've made a lot of mistakes, you have a lot of focus, you have your highest income of your life. So there's a lot of advantages you have to this. There's the catch up contributions, there's a lot of math advantages and there's a lot of sort of historical past advantages. Let go of the bad parts, but harness the energy of the good parts and the wins in order to gain momentum. It's a journey where you get control of your money, you and Helps you not get control of life because life kind of happens, but it helps you kind of flip the switch on living an intentional life and focusing on, okay, what do I want to be able to say at the end of the day? How do I avoid the five regrets of the dying? And as we were talking about, life is an open book test. I don't want to have worked too much. I want to have been true to myself and walked my path. I want to have connected with friends and reconnected with old friends. It isn't about money. There's not one of the regrets of the dying that has anything to do with money. And so look forward to that and use money as a tool to have, you know, honestly, a peaceful regret, free death, because that's the one thing we all share in common.

[A]

Yeah. I imagine a lot of late starters maybe struggle with this idea of, I've failed at this. Right. Like, I screwed it up. And yet, like you were saying, there also comes something when you're older where you're like, well, screwed up other things before. Like, we have a little bit more confidence maybe, in terms of, yeah, I've made mistakes before, and I've been able to get past them right where that maybe that's harder for a younger person to kind of make that shift.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, our mistakes are critical to learning. It is in the pain. When we get to the bottom of our late start, it's the pain that generates change. I mean, it is really no pain, no gain. You can't live a life of comfort and yolo. If you really want to change and evolve and live what I would call a full life, you need to overcome the pain, acknowledge it, embrace it, recognize it for its silver lining, and then use that to energize yourself on a different path, to change your path. You know, there may be a simple path to wealth, but there's no real simple path to wealth preservation and fulfillment. There are many roads to Rome there.

[A]

What do you think people in this space don't talk about enough?

[C]

They don't talk about the difficulty of transition and change and the turmoil of it. I have a sort of a moniker that I live by, which is pause, plan, and pivot. And the pivot's important, but you have to pause, give yourself grace, take a breath, focus inward, and then make a plan, get it together, get your blueprint, get your map out, because you can't get to a destination without a plan, and then pivot. One of my favorite quotes, which I refer to as kind of a phi quote, is from Viktor Frankl and man's search for meaning. It's something along the lines of between stimulus and response is a space, and we need to erase that space because in that space, we need to regulate and choose our response. And that's how he survived the holocaust. That's how we survive this wonderful journey, this difficult journey of phi, which is so rewarding. You know, moving out into the light, into the next chapter of life. I am so excited about it. I can't tell you it's anxiety provoking, but I really look forward to this. The golden age of 60 to 80, or however long it is. You know, I want to be able to die tomorrow and say, I gave it my all. I left it all on the table, just like I did with my marathon, that I only ran one. I didn't run a second marathon. You only run one life and, you know, give it. Leave it all on the table in that one precious life.

[A]

Okay, I want to talk about this pivot idea because in order to pivot, we have to have a new thought. We have to think about things in a different way. You know, I kind of talked about in the intro how I like how you've kind of let your audience in on your thinking process and how some of that has changed for you. And I wonder if you can even pull out what is one thought or belief that you used to have that you don't have anymore around money. I'll give you an example from my own life. I used to think, and I guess here's why I think this is valuable, because so many of those thoughts or beliefs that we have, they are not visible to us. They are helping to drive our decisions. But you're not sitting down and thinking, here is my belief about this. It's just like sitting there as part of us, right? So I think I thought I could never make more than $75,000. I didn't genuinely sit down and think that. I just lived with this idea of, like, I'm a certain kind of person who has a certain kind of job and this other range of salary is, like, available to other people, but it's not available to me because, I don't know, I'm just not that kind of person. And the reasons for that are for another podcast. It doesn't really matter what that is, but it did in some way limit me because I was just putting that limit on myself and I don't do that anymore. Or, you know what? I totally do that. But I tried to be more intentional about, like, oh, what Is the belief under this that's influencing my decisions. And I say, oh, I don't do that anymore. Because now I think, oh, look at those people who make 150,000. Oh, well, that could never be me. And maybe it won't. Who cares? But it could be, right? Like, it's possible. And so, like, living by that belief is not really helpful. It's not really useful. I wonder if you can think of an example from your own life about just a belief that you had about money, whether that's about scarcity or abundance or your abilities that just no longer has traction in your life anymore.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, what is money is kind of like the elephant in the room question, because it has a lot of negative things attached to it and a lot of positive things attached to it. And for me, one of the things that was attached to it was fear because my dad disappeared for a month to do his taxes and he got audited, and I've been afraid of taxes ever since. And so it was. But money, in many ways, is infinite. It is flow. It is potential energy that you store. It's not something you own, and you don't want it to own you. There are so many ways to think about it. It's math. It's fiat currency. It's a store of value, a way of exchange. In some ways, money is trust. It's an exchange of trust. It's. It leaves you vulnerable. You know, it's the root of all evil. Not really. I mean, it's the root of all potential, I think. And we need to look at it and what it really can do for us. You don't think you can earn more? Well, you absolutely can. But it comes back to the marshmallow test of needs and wants. Do you really need that much or do you just want that much? And you have to ask yourself these fundamental questions. You know, the three things that lead to being a late starter are lack of goals, lack of values, and lack of financial literacy and skills. And those are the three areas that we need to work on as late starters. You know, you got to set smart goals that are time limited and achievable. And all those things about smart goals. And you've got to have good values. I mean, what do we value in our family? Well, love. Okay, Friendship. And are we going to use money to increase love in our life if that's a value and a goal? I mean, it isn't to buy a Maserati that dopamine hit is gone. Hedonic adaptation, we call it. But how do we spend it to sort of feel full? If we create the vessel in the first half of our life, according to Richard Rohr, how do we fill it up in the second half of our life? What do we fill it up with? Say it breaks and then the Japanese put it together and they embrace imperfection because there is none. Perfection is the enemy of the good. You've got to satisfy, be good enough. Just like with the markets, you know, 80% of the return is enough. You don't have to beat it. You know, I don't know that you need $150,000 to live.

[A]

I don't. All right, you said something about 80 year old bill. I want to know what you're doing now to take care of 80 year old bill.

[C]

Well, that's a really good question. And of all the forms of capital, financial being only one. I'm doing really well with spiritual community and financial health. Being a doctor, heal thyself. I'm not doing as well. I am probably at my unfittest in life. Yeah, I go for walks and the season of running marathons is over. And I am heavier than I definitely want to be. And I may be financially lean and fit, but physically I'm not necessarily lean and fit. It's harder as you get older. The energy may fail you. But as other authors have written, you know, and outlive and whatnot, we don't have health, we don't really have wealth and our money really has no purpose. I am inspired by people like Paul Merriman, who's in his 80s. He hangs out with us in the FI community having beers and talking money and educating. I mean, he's inspirational. And having relationships across generations is, I think, one of the keys to life. You know, mentor the young, learn from the older and the wiser. We don't do enough of that. I think in our sort of self focused society.

[A]

Sometimes I want Paul Merriman to be my grandpa. He has that energy about him. I want Paul to be proud of me.

[C]

Yeah, he sure does. And you know, I want my, the gap, as I say, between my health span and lifespan to be as short as possible. Push your health span all the way up to your lifespan and then fall off the cliff. Then give me the heart attack. I'm at the peak of my life. That's fine.

[A]

Now, isn't this another doctor thing? I feel like I've heard before where you're like, oh, they're not as good with their money as you think. Isn't there also kind of a stereotype around doctors, not necessarily prioritizing their health.

[C]

That's absolutely true. I did for a while and I focused on it. I need to refocus on it. I mean, life fluctuates. I mean, it's like the stock market. There's ups and there's downs. If it's really important to me, I'll do it. And it's become really important to me. I have a bit of an imposter syndrome and I have excuses. You've got to overcome that friction in life to get to where you want to go. So, yeah, I'm not perfect there, but I'm happy and I'm healthy mentally, far from where I was 10 years ago. I mean, phi is really good for your mental health, I'll tell you. Very empowering.

[A]

Yeah, we talk a lot about health on this show, so I want to just indulge our audience a little bit. So you say, yeah, I want to kind of get back into some kind of routine or I want to kind of take this more seriously. What is that actually going to look like for you or have you kind of gotten that far? It is.

[C]

I think getting out of the ER will help because I'm a stress eater and you know, losing weight is just like money. You know, it's easy but not simple. Losing weight is easy but not simple. It's what are you putting in and what are you putting out? It's a mindset. You know, who do I believe myself to be? Am I a reasonably fit 60 year old that is planning to live well beyond 80 and a full and healthy life? Yeah, that's a dream. But gotta take action towards that to make it a reality and it's very important.

[A]

I thought you were gonna say getting out of the ER would help because maybe you're putting your body in like stress positions. I imagine there's lots of like hunching. Is that right? Like, are you putting your body in awkward positions?

[C]

Well, you know, I'm not sleeping as much as I should and I'm eating at night during the day. There's no regularity to the schedule. You night shifts shorten your life. That's a good reason to get out of the er. Not eating right and not having a routine is going to shorten your life. There are very simple things that I've got to do. Now that the money's taken care of, I need to refocus on the other parts.

[A]

Yeah. Do you consistently work the night shift or is that a sometimes thing?

[C]

No, it's a three to four times a Month thing.

[A]

Oh my gosh, Bill, that's terrible. You should quit.

[C]

Oh, I should take your advice, actually. Phi is a powerful lever there because as soon as I became fi, I went to my director and said, I'm going to cut two shifts. I want to work only two night shifts a month and I'll work six day shifts. And I want more money for less time because I'm a senior physician. I'm 60. And you know, we've got to have some kind of benefit of being that we'll see what they come back with. But you know, they're. Unfortunately, I have the same expectations as a 60 year old as the 35 year olds do. It's not exactly fair.

[A]

I mean, this 12 hour shift thing, I have several friends who are nurses and I'm like, If I did one 12 hour shift, I would die. Do you feel proud of your stamina, like just your ability to focus for that long or to do kind of physical kind of work for that long?

[C]

Yeah, the lifestyle is not ideal. It's not structured. I mean, medicine is kind of a suck it up buttercup lifestyle. You know, it starts with residency and it carries forward toxic workplace. You know, it's not conducive to taking care of your health. But we own that. And I have more time off now. I have retirement days because I've reduced the shifts and I need to make better use of them, quite honestly.

[A]

Okay, so I asked you what you were doing to take care of 80 year old bill. I want to ask you what 40 year old bill you wish 40 year old bill had done with the idea of, hey, you're talking to a bunch of 40 year olds right now. And so we know one of those things is you're saying, hey, I probably should have paid attention to my finances sooner. Are there other things that you wish the 40 year old version of you had done to take better care of 60 year old bill?

[C]

You know, if you get your money right on the front end and you live a balanced life and save earlier, you can buy back your time earlier in life. If you start at 35 or 40, you can be done early in your 50s for sure. Or you can take that coast by lifestyle like Andy Hill, where you know what? I've frontloaded the sacrifice. The markets will do its thing while my kids are in middle school and high school, I can have more time with them. You know, it would have been nice to be more intentional like that. That's an alternative contrarian lifestyle to the, you know, the boomer 9 to 5 till 65, and that's changing. And I was on the cusp of that as a Gen Xer, so that was my model. My dad worked till 80, but that's changed. And people are looking at life from a quality standpoint. So I don't have any regrets about it, But I certainly would focus on how I spend my time and to get off the treadmill. Make your own way, live your own life. Don't live the life that somebody you know. My dad was a doctor, so kind of felt like he wanted me to be one and carve your own path, get out of the tracks of the guy in front of you and go down the mountain your own way. And I didn't do as much of that in midlife. What about you? What are your thoughts on that?

[A]

That's a hard thing to do in midlife. You've read the five regrets of the Dying. Like, that is one of them is like, live the life that you want to and, like, take risks. And you always hear this idea that people don't regret things they did as much as the things that they didn't do. And so I do try to keep that in mind. But I also kind of push back against that a little bit because it's like, so easy to imagine if we had done those things right, like, oh, I should have taken that risk. We picture it going well. We picture it having worked out, and when you're actually at that point where you're like, oh, I could change my life. I could do this big thing. Often the thing that holds you back is this might go really poorly. So it might feel a little better to be safe, you know, we lose

[C]

the curious child from our childhood. And when you want to figure out retirement, you have to reach back to your childhood. And you never really, in the end, want to lose the curious child. And being a creative person, experimenting, you know, I was in a consumption lifestyle, whether it be consuming money to grow it or being consuming things and exiting into retirement as a creator. And becoming a creator sort of opens up the world, and that's part of the journey too. You can get lost in consumption and analysis paralysis, but you can make a change in the world with one person. You don't have to have this big, hairy, audacious goal. We've heard about little P versus big P purpose from Jordan, but it's true. It's absolutely true. The parable of the starfish is, you know, walk down the beach, the million starfish, says a child. He throws one or two back in the adult. The Adult comes down the beach and says, what are you doing? You're not going to make any difference. And the child says, well, it made a difference for that one. And so in this space, it's really fun to see the light in somebody's eyes when you touch them with a powerful tool in the financial independence space. And they go, oh yeah. I mean, Jackie and I were in a classroom of 20 somethings and we did a thing called 20 questions from 20 somethings of all the questions you'd wish you asked yourselves, or they were asking prospectively and let's answer a few of them.

[A]

And.

[C]

And the students came up to us afterwards and said, wow, you opened my eyes. And the things they wanted to talk about weren't really the math things of money. It was the purpose things and the soft sides of money. It was really interesting, a lot of fun, you know, helping out the youth once you've sort of figured it out for yourself.

[A]

So what was the exercise? They were to come up with questions for you guys or for future versions of themselves or what was that?

[C]

Yeah, both. They had a midterm test and we've done this a couple years in a row. And the professor who's. She's a professor in the School of Agriculture. I mean, she has a PhD in agronomics but never had a personal finance class. She takes it upon herself to have one class a year as kind of a kamikaze personal finance firelighter type class. And we asked her on her exam to ask the bonus question on what would you want to know at your age about personal finance? And so we got 30 questions and they were really cool and it was anonymous, so there was no shame, no blame that they didn't know.

[A]

Yeah, well, that starfish story, I mean, I imagine that that happens over and over again when people listen to your podcast. Like when people find your podcast and they have this idea of like, I'm one of these people and there's hope for me and there's people I can talk to about this and people who have had of the same struggles that I have had.

[C]

We all do it our own way. People get so orthodox with diying things sometimes, and that's kind of, in some ways lonely. And I exited the diy. I mean, accumulation is a good DIY sport, but I exited DIY and embraced the financial advisor. And I found a flat fee fiduciary partner collaborator who does sort of portfolios the way I want to do them. And it's there for my wife because she doesn't want to deal with money. And it's there for cognitive decline. For a lot of reasons, I was not as orthodox about diy, and so maybe I'm a traitor. But I think it's really important to seek advice when you need it, seek mentorship when you need it. You know, we don't have to struggle alone. And our space, we do it together. We have a community of 20,000 Facebook members, and it's a place that a lot of people are very vulnerable with vulnerable things and admissions. And that's very healing and cathartic to get it out there in public and ask for advice and they get good advice. On our Facebook group, we hope we give good advice and inspiration on our podcast. It's a conversation, it's a dialogue. We want to reach the community outside of the financial independence community. 60% of the nation are probably late starters. 40% subsist on Social Security. There's a much bigger population out there and we need this community's help to, you know, reach those starfish, reach those people that are on the outside and want to find their way in.

[A]

Yeah, well, I think there's so much passion and excitement in the fire community and sometimes it can be hard to find that person that's like you. Right. So you see all of these 30 year olds who are gonna fire when they're 35, and that's hard for most of us, like you say, it's hard for most, most of us to connect with. Even though it's very exciting to like, listen to those stories. It's a different kind of feeling in your podcast to say, I think a lot of people say, oh, that person is like me. Right. And if they can do it, I can do it.

[C]

Yeah, they can be 24 or 70 and still consider themselves a late starter, as we said. And the average American's a late starter. But, you know, often we live as a silent generation in shame, as a lost generation. And stepping out of that, shedding the mantle of that, realizing you're not alone is a powerful force.

[A]

You got a dog back there who's excited.

[C]

Sorry, that's Lily. The UPS man. Must be at the front door, I think.

[A]

All right, well, let's end on something fun. Let's end on a couple fun things. So tell me, like, what's something you are looking forward to in the next year? That could be any.

[C]

Well, I'm really looking forward to taking our sons to Norway for two weeks. Okay. One of the best things you can do with money, quote unquote, in retirement or in the Fog of FI is spend time with your kids and your family. Best money you'll ever spend is on traveling with family or friends. So we're taking them to Norway and we were invited to go to New Zealand to talk to a fledgling organization, an economy type conference called Kiwifi Bronwyn Candish is doing this. And this American FI movement, well, the New Zealanders have embraced it. They found catching up the FI through Allen and Katie Donegan and the Rebel Finance School and they reached out to us. And so all of a sudden, because of this journey as a creator, because of the podcast, Jackie and I are going to speak to an audience down in New Zealand and then we're coming back to do the Bogleheads conference. There's a surprise there that I can't reveal, but there's so many opportunities that are coming my way. I'm on a mission with a financial advisor to make sure that every resident before they leave residency in their medical field gets a financial plan by 2035. I mean, that's a big, hairy, audacious goal, but I think it's realizable and they should. They shouldn't suffer under debt burden and the golden handcuffs. Give them a plan early. So these are some of the things that are on the horizon. There's a lot more I get to collaborate with other people on how to use AI as an estate planner. There's almost too much to go on, but those are some of the things that I have to look forward to.

[A]

Yeah. What are two places that you have traveled that you would recommend to other people that were so cool?

[C]

Well, as a lot of people know, Frank Vasquez is a really good friend of mine. He's a bestie. One of the best things, he and his wife actually that have happened to me. We met at Fincon in 2019 and have grown closer and closer. And I drank the Kool Aid on his wrist parody radio show and Risk parody portfolios. But our friendship goes much further than that. And we reached out to Frank and Mary and my wife and I when we were going to go to South Africa for my 60th birthday. And we had just a blast on safaris and in Cape Town, quite an adventure. I always wanted to stand on the Cape of Good hope for my 60th birthday because I stood on Cape Horn for my 50th birthday. I mean, these are some of the dreams, these are some of the travels. You said a second place. Where have I been that I would send people? Oh, Patagonia, South Africa, Germany, where I Lived for two years. Croatia was really fun, I think. Joe Salsihai does a travel podcast on the Stacking Benjamin's platform. It's infinite. You can travel to a national park. I mean, I went with my son and his girlfriend to Las Vegas and Bryce and Zion because he dates a K through 5 teacher that likes to gamble for some reason. So we did that. Don't do it alone. Do it with people. Pay for your kids to come with you because they can't afford it. But you want to be with them. I think, as Brad says, you spent 90% of the time you're going to with them before they're 18. Well, make that happen as adults. Don't let that go.

[A]

Yeah, it doesn't have to be that way. I went to Joshua Tree a couple years ago for the first time and it blew me away. And it made me think, I've written off national parks because we went to like two when I was a kid. That's what we did for vacations. And so I think I thought, oh, I want to do something more exciting. But then I got old enough where I was like, wait, this is pretty exciting.

[C]

Well, it doesn't have to be exotic. You can travel in your backyard. It's a mental thing as much we have our Choose Fi meetup and, you know, Chattanooga isn't far away. Recently we had a bee in our bonnet to go to Memphis and we saw the Civil Rights Museum and we went to Graceland. But the purpose of the trip was to go see a friend, Sarah Catherine Gutierrez, in Little Rock. Never been to Little Rock. What a great road trip. And it snowed and we were locked in the house for three days. And she was all upset that we couldn't go there and do this and go get a spa in Hot Springs. And we stayed at home with our kids and played board games. It was the best thing ever. And now she and her family are coming to Knoxville because that was so much fun. And we're going to go to Dollywood, a place I've never been. It just compounds relationships, compound better than money, I think.

[A]

Yeah. What a great note for us to end on. Bill, thank you so much for chatting with me today and for sharing all those bits of advice. And everyone out there, go check out Catching up to Phi if you haven't already, and we will catch you next time.

[C]

It's an honor to be on choose at Phi. Thanks for having me back and let's continue the conversation in the future.

[A]

Thanks, Bill.