609 | How to Talk to Your Partner about FI | Jasper Lee

Summary

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Podcast Summary: ChooseFI – Ep. 609

How to Talk to Your Partner about FI | Guest: Dr. Jasper Lee

Date: July 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Brad and Jonathan welcome back Dr. Jasper Lee—clinical psychologist, Harvard assistant professor, and fellow FI community member—for a deep-dive into one of the most challenging FI topics: how to talk to your partner about financial independence.

Harnessing insights from clinical psychology, Dr. Lee breaks down why financial conversations become emotional landmines, why sharing spreadsheets almost always backfires, and how to use evidence-based communication strategies—like motivational interviewing—to foster curiosity, buy-in, and shared ownership rather than defensiveness and resistance in your most important relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Money—and FI—Conversations are Emotional (05:22–10:36)

• Money as Identity: Discussing money is rarely about the numbers; instead, it triggers deep issues tied to security, status, control, even love. (05:22)
• Social Contracts and Norms: Pursuing FI violates ingrained cultural expectations (like retiring at 65), which can make conversations countercultural and threatening. (09:07)
• Social Signaling: Declaring you want to achieve FI may inadvertently signal "I'm right and you're wrong," increasing defensiveness. (09:56)
  • “If I tell you I’m pursuing FI, I’m signaling to you not only what my choices are, but what I might be thinking about your choices...people automatically get defensive when they think someone is telling them what they’re doing is wrong.” – Dr. Lee [09:56]

2. Why “Leading with Spreadsheets” Doesn’t Work (12:09–16:31)

• Logical arguments can't overcome emotional objections; more data often fuels resistance—especially when their true concerns are about fear, change, or autonomy.
  • “The problem is you can’t beat an emotional objection with a logical argument.” – Dr. Lee [13:22]
• Tell-Tale Signs: If your partner responds with “what if” concerns (e.g., “what if the market crashes?”) it’s an emotional objection, not a need for more data. (14:45)

3. Top Five Communication Pitfalls in FI Conversations (17:24–21:31)

1. Leading With Numbers: Spreadsheets rarely persuade someone who’s not already on board. (12:09+)
2. Using FI Jargon: Terms like “Coast FI,” “Mega Backdoor Roth,” or “Sequence of Return Risk” can alienate those not steeped in the culture. Use plain language. (17:24)
   • “You don’t have to show them how smart you are...you’re signaling membership in a group that they aren’t a part of.” – Dr. Lee [17:58]
3. Framing as “Early Retirement”: The word “retirement” brings baggage and negative reactions. Try “work optional,” “autonomy,” or “freedom.” (19:07)
4. Presenting FI as a Done Deal: Handing your partner a 20-year plan you built solo is a recipe for pushback. (19:47)
5. Evangelizing/Preaching About FI: Uninvited evangelism repels rather than persuades. (21:11)

4. Actionable Approach: Joint Ownership & Shared Values (23:19–27:06)

• The Critical Question: How do you create joint ownership and excitement around FI?
  • Start with values and envisioning together. “What does a perfect day, or a perfect Tuesday, look like if you never had to worry about work or money again?” (24:18)
• Practical Exercise: Each partner independently lists their values or what they love most (try values worksheets), then discuss where there's overlap.

5. How to Start the Conversation (28:32–29:57)

• Contrast two approaches:

  • What NOT to say: “I’ve been running numbers, here’s our plan, let’s stop eating out.”
  • What TO say: “I’ve been thinking about what we want our lives to look like in 10 years—not just financially, but how we spend our time. What would that look like for you?” (28:54)

• Use playful, low-stakes openers (e.g., “What does a perfect Tuesday look like for you?”). (29:24)

6. Motivational Interviewing: A Framework for Difficult Conversations (29:57–34:43)

• A clinical technique that helps people find their own reasons for change rather than reacting to your arguments.
• Three Steps: Elicit, Provide, Elicit
  1. Elicit: Ask open-ended questions to understand their perspective. (“What would you want life to look like if money were no object?”)
  2. Provide: Offer information only after they’ve shared—“There’s something I read that could help make that possible...want to hear about it?”
  3. Elicit: Ask again for their input—“What do you think?”
  • “People are always more persuaded by arguments they generate themselves than by arguments you present to them.” – Dr. Lee [30:01]
  • “Now we’re in a conversation...they’re already emotionally bought in.” – Brad [33:04]

7. Validation—NOT Defensiveness—is Key (36:46–39:07)

• Drawing on the Gottman Method (the “Four Horsemen” of relationship conflict), Dr. Lee stresses validating your partner’s concerns as real—even if you disagree.
  • “Validation is not agreement. You can acknowledge something without agreeing with it.” – Dr. Lee [36:47]
• Instead of steamrolling concerns (“don’t worry, it all works in the long run”), reflect back and ask, “What would make you feel more comfortable?”

8. Structure for Ongoing Success: Money Dates & Ritual (40:07–45:29)

• Money Date/Planning Party: Regular, low-stakes scheduled meetings (monthly or quarterly) to discuss goals, progress and issue-spot—before a crisis hits. Set an agenda, make it a “date” or ritual (restaurant, special meal at home). (40:07)
• No problem-solving until both feel heard. Listen, then collaborate on solutions. (44:06)
• Stopping Rule: Too heated? Pause and reschedule—protect emotional safety.

9. What If Partners Strongly Disagree? (46:03–50:10)

• Financial conflict is the #1 predictor of divorce.
• If one partner is “vehemently opposed,” first ask why: “What do you feel you’d be losing or missing out on?”
• Seek small wins (e.g., saving $100/month), understand the true barrier, avoid all-or-nothing thinking.
  • “Could we each commit to shaving off $100 from our budget? Start there.” – Dr. Lee [49:34]

10. Psychological Skills to Use Right Away (52:52–54:59)

• Open-ended questions: Who/what/where/why/how? (e.g., “How would you know you reached FI?”)

• Affirm: Even if you disagree, acknowledge their concerns as real to them.

• Reflect: Mirror back what you heard before trying to fix or argue.

• Summarize: Reiterate both feelings and conclusions. (“So you want more freedom, but security’s a concern—do you want to explore it more?”)

  • “Open-ended questions, affirm, reflect, summarize.” – Dr. Lee [55:00]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You cannot beat an emotional concern with a logical argument.” – Dr. Lee [13:22]
• “Leading with numbers and spreadsheets just doesn’t work very well...the problem is you can’t beat an emotional objection with a logical argument.” – Dr. Lee [12:09 & 13:22]
• “Validation is not agreement. You can acknowledge something without agreeing with it, but you have to acknowledge it as a real concern.” – Dr. Lee [36:47]
• “Your job is to make them talk more than you.” – Dr. Lee [55:09]
• “If this is truly a goal for you, you have to open the door for this hard conversation and start to explore values together.” – Dr. Lee [39:19]
• “It’s hard to mount a defensive response when someone is bringing you in like this...What does a perfect Tuesday look like for you?” – Dr. Lee [56:49]
• “I suspect there’s a real high likelihood that you’re going to end up closer at the end of this conversation than before. And isn’t that what we all want?” – Brad [56:29]

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Important Timestamps

• [05:22] – Why money brings up strong emotions
• [12:09] – Why spreadsheets and data rarely convince your partner
• [17:24] – Five communication pitfalls to avoid
• [24:18] – Launching the joint values exercise
• [29:57] – Motivational interviewing: elicit, provide, elicit
• [36:46] – The importance of validation (The Gottman Method)
• [40:07] – Planning parties, money dates, and ritualizing low-stakes conversations
• [46:03] – What if one partner really isn’t on board?
• [52:52] – Four key conversation skills to use right away (open-ended, affirm, reflect, summarize)

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Practical Takeaways & Next Steps

When preparing to talk to your partner about FI:

• Start with “why” using open-ended questions; invite shared visioning.
• Reflect and affirm their emotional responses—even if they’re skeptical.
• Avoid jargon and preaching; ditch the spreadsheets (at first).
• Co-create your FI approach instead of dropping a completed plan.
• Ritualize the conversation: Schedule low-stakes, regular “money dates.”
• If in conflict? Start small, seek understanding, and remember: emotional buy-in always comes before logical agreement.

If stuck in patterns or facing persistent conflict?
Dr. Lee suggests seeking professional help sooner rather than later (see: jasperleephd.com).

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Closing Wisdom

“This isn’t about winning arguments or outsmarting your loved ones. It’s about being curious, getting close, and building something meaningful—together. The journey to FI only works when you take it as a team.” – Paraphrased episode theme

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Further Reading & Resources

• Motivational Interviewing (for more on “elicit, provide, elicit”): motivationalinterviewing.org
• Values worksheet/“Perfect Tuesday” exercise (Resource promised for show notes)
• Dr. Jasper Lee: jasperleephd.com

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Feedback? Wins to Share? Questions for Part 2?
Engage in the episode comments on choosefi.com/609.

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Summary by ChooseFI Podcast Summarizer. For listeners who want insight, not just soundbites.

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to Choose a Phi. Today on the show, we're welcoming back Dr. Jasper Lee. Jasper is a licensed clinical psychologist. He's an assistant professor of psychology at Harvard Medical School and a staff psychologist at Mass General Hospital. He's an NIH funded researcher and in his private practice he works with people on the psychological side of financial independence. The last time Jasper joined us, we talked about something I've said for years on the podcast that the journey to FI is probably about 90% psychological and maybe only 5 to 10% about the actual mechanics of money. Sure, the investing matters, the tax strategies matter. But for most of us, the harder part is changing our thinking, our habits and our behavior. One thing we really didn't get into last time though, is what happens once you've started down this path by yourself. Because eventually almost everyone runs into the same challenge. How? How do you actually talk about FI with the people you care about most? We've all had some variation of one of these crazy conversations where we start just rattling off about I'm going to retire early or I'm going to reach FI and I'm saving 50% of my income. And all these things, we usually are met with stares and crickets. I think today we're going to talk about how to have better conversations, specifically with your significant other. Jasper shares practical evidence based communication strategies drawn from clinical psychology for talking with your spouse. And we really, really get into the nitty gritty about this with actionable takeaways on why these conversations become emotional so quickly and why leading with spreadsheets almost never works and why you should really lead with curiosity and questions instead of trying to convince someone that you are right just because you've spent time learning about this. As always here at Choose a Vi, we want actionable takeaways and I think this episode is chock full of them. This is one you're going to come back to again and again. You're really going to enjoy this. And with that, welcome to choose that Fi. Before we get started, I keep this podcast entirely ad free for two reasons. First, this is a five podcast and I don't want to promote products that I don't want you to buy in the first place. And second, I really like the clean listening experience of a show where you don't have to fast forward ads to keep it ad free. All I ask of you as a listener is the next time you open a travel rewards credit card, go to choosefi.com cards and with that onto the show. Jasper, welcome back to Choose a Vi. I'm so happy to have you back.

[B]

Thanks, Brad. It's great to be back. Thanks for having me.

[A]

This episode should be fun. I think we set up a really important topic for. For the FI community, because really communicating with the people in your lives, that's just essential, period. Hard stop, end of story. And then when it comes to this really important part of our identities, frankly, for most of us, it's, of course, equally as important, but it's very difficult. It's difficult for a lot of us. It's difficult to talk about it. It's difficult to maybe get your spouse on board. There are lots of thorny issues, and I know from speaking with people both online and in person that this is a significant issue for lot of us. So thank you for putting this episode together. And I'm just going to throw it open to you for really, the general intro as you see it. And also, I know before we get started, you do have an important disclaimer.

[B]

Yeah. Thanks, Brad. So just a general disclaimer. I am a psychologist, but I'm not your psychologist. None of this is advice. I'm not telling you what to do. And although I'm an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School, staff psychologist at Massachusetts General Hospital, this is separate from my work there, and I'm appearing in my personal capacity.

[A]

Yep. And you are a member of the FI community. You are here. Just as these are two guys just having a conversation. I think it'll be hopefully, I suspect very strongly this is going to be a very valuable one for everybody listening. But let's be clear. You're not here in any official capacity.

[B]

That's right. I'm a member of the FI community. I'm wearing my choose FI T shirt right now, which is super soft. And I just enjoy talking to you about this stuff.

[A]

Nice. I love it. All right, well, let's rock and roll then.

[B]

Yeah. So as you said, communication is one of the most important foundations of any relationship, and it's made so much harder when we bring such an important topic like money into the conversation. But then for people in the FI community, money intersects with identity in this very specific way, and I think it makes the conversations that much harder to have, and there's a lot riding on them. So I thought it might be nice and hopefully helpful to people to come together and kind of talk about four huge domains in our life that we need to focus our communication skills on.

[A]

I love that. So four main domains. We're going to obviously get into them. But before we get started, I want to Ask you, why do conversations about money become emotional so very quickly? Because I've seen this happen countless times and it's, I don't know what's so inherent about money. I have some suspicions, but really from your perspective, like why does anything surrounding money like this is one of the great taboos that are still left in American, in worldwide society, I suspect, but American society for sure. Why is that the case?

[B]

Yeah, money is not a neutral topic by any stretch of imagination. And it's because when we talk about money, we're not really talking about money. We're pulling on psychological underpinnings that relate to money. But security, social status, control your self worth, love, and often many of these things are being pulled on at the same time. And money means different things to different people. And so when I talk to you about money, I'm not talking about dollars, we're talking about where you fit into the world. And if that's what's getting pulled from these conversations, you. It's a much more emotionally driven topic than it seems like it would be on the surface.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like there's so many societal things aside from the interpersonal. Like you always just like money is the root of all evil and you always have different terms you hear thrown about, about rich people or billionaires. I mean, well, frankly, I guess in modern times maybe some of that is deserved, let's be clear. But generally speaking, there's a lot of malice towards just the concept of money and people who have money. And not to ask such a naive question, but where does that come from?

[B]

Well, there's research about in group and out group psychology. And money is such an easy way to signal that I belong to this group. And you don't. Look at the type of car you drive versus the guy who just passed you going 90 on the highway. Right. Like it's so easy to separate ourselves and we can do that very quickly with the heuristic of money. So it's. People feel very quickly that they belong or that they don't belong and they make that snap decision based off of money or signals that are related to money.

[A]

Yeah, I get that. I just feel like money is, is like the first thing we snap to. It's not like, oh, I'm making up silly things like that person is tall. So I don't like all tall people, even though they're six. Like that person is X or what, you know, you make up anything like it seems like money has like a very emotional hook to it.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that goes Back to our conversation in episode 573. We talked about scarcity, mindset and some evolution there. But we evolved to want to be able to survive. And money now is the way we measure our ability to survive. Maybe it used to be, you know, how much corn did you have in your stockpiles? But we don't look at other people's quorum now. We look at signals of wealth.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, now, talking about FI specifically, forget money. FI is really difficult to talk about. And I'm curious, as you kind of have alluded to me, it's. There are certain social contracts that exist in society, and it seems like, as I kind of jokingly say, FI is very countercultural to my eyes, it's a fundamental truth, in essence, like living below your means, saving, having autonomy. These are fairly obvious things once you grasp them. But yet it's so difficult to talk about five because a lot of people don't ever think this way or it never comes across their plate, as I see it from the layman's perspective. But from your actual, knowledgeable perspective, I'm curious, why 5 specifically?

[B]

That's a great question. I think that 5 fi is often conflated with retirement. Like, you hear fire, right? Financial independence, retire early. And so people mesh them together. And when we hear retire early, it violates the social contract. When I say retirement age, what is your automatic association?

[A]

65. Probably somewhere in the 60s.

[B]

Yeah, 65. Why? That is a social contract. Like, it's a financial norm that we developed in society. And so if I tell you or signal to you through different changes in my life that I am not going to pursue this norm and I'm going to violate this contract. Anytime we're doing something that's outside of the social norm, we're running, as you said, like a counterculture. I don't think saving and living below your means is a wild idea. I just think that it's sort of running upstream from this social norm. And so a lot of people don't do that or want to do that.

[A]

Is it just a social norm, or do people feel like their own identity is under attack because this other person is doing something so different?

[B]

If I tell you I'm pursuing fi, I'm signaling to you not only what my choices are, but what I might be thinking about your choices. So I'm doing this differently than you, which must mean that I think I'm right and you're wrong. Okay. And so people automatically get defensive when they think someone is telling them what they're doing is wrong.

[A]

And I suspect that's writ large. Right. Like that's something very broad.

[B]

Yeah. If I'm wearing a Miami Dolphins hat and you're wearing Washington Commanders, I don't know what football team you like. I'm telling you that we don't belong to the same group. And I think you're wrong and I'm right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if I'm wearing a choose a 5 shirt and you're like, I've never heard of that. What is that? And I tell you I'm trying to retire early and you're not thinking about doing that. I'm right and you're wrong and you're going to get defensive about it.

[A]

Okay. And then presumably the harder you push, the more defensive they got, the more resistance there is.

[B]

Exactly right. That's a psychological concept called psychological reactance. Brad, you have teenage daughters, right. What is the first thing they want to do after you've told them not to do something?

[A]

I think just like all of us, they want to do it.

[B]

Yeah. That concept is called psychological reactance. When people tend to resist when they feel like their autonomy is being challenged. So you double down and you say, no, I'm definitely right, you're definitely wrong. And you get more entrenched in your position and your belief.

[A]

Hmm. Thinking politics and all the fun that people try to convince others. And it's, oh, I wonder why that doesn't work. So this is among many reasons, psychological reactant.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's a cool term to know. So I think a lot of us have some personal experience, though maybe it's anecdotal. Right. Of like, I tried to explain it to my ex person. Right. My spouse, my significant other, my parents, my whomever. And I led with these numbers and I tried, tried to wow them with, hey, we're gonna save all this money and we're gonna reach fi and it's gonna be great. And that's it. It starts and stops with the numbers. So is this something that you see, Jasper, and what are the psychological principles behind this, if any?

[B]

This is great. I have five main pitfalls that people tend to fall into, approaches that people use that just really don't work very well. And the first one is leading with numbers and spreadsheets. It's a super common approach, but it just doesn't work very well. Actually, you had a guest very recently in episode six.05, Cody, who wrote that book Retire by 30. And even though I'm past 30, I'm probably still going to go get it. He talked about trying to convince his now wife about Fi and said I led with numbers and that didn't work. And then he did something else and that actually did work. And the reason that people want to lead with numbers is because I'm going to show you what convinced me. So because this convinced me. It must work to convince other people. And it could. But just because you love spreadsheets, you love numbers, financial planning does not mean everyone or frankly most other people will too. The problem here is that you can't beat an emotional objection with a logical argument. And I think this might be one of the most important concepts I'm going to talk about today is logical arguments do not work on emotional concerns. So if someone's resistance is really rooted in fear or identity or feeling like their autonomy is being deprived, a better spreadsheet will not help you convince them. It actually might make things worse. They're going to feel talked at like you're not taking their concerns seriously. By the time you get to the third tab of your awesome budget spreadsheet and you show them your really cool formula, they're totally disinterested.

[A]

But the 4% rule, but safe withdrawal rate. Come on, Jasper, come on. That's fantastic. So, okay, and I know you have more here, but just to slow down. So logical arguments do not work on emotional concerns. That's something I want everybody to really take in. This is far surpasses just this particular concept. I think this is a broadly applicable psychological concept is what Jasper is telling us. So just keep that in mind. But Jasper, I guess my question to you is someone who is leading with just numbers, how can they have the awareness that the other person has emotional concerns? I don't mean to say that they don't have the ability to see that. Obviously I can't know every person or even any person who's going about it that way. But how do you pick up on emotion? Emotional concerns? What are tells for that?

[B]

Yeah, that's a great question. Probably the biggest tell is, is a what if question. If someone comes back to you and says what if the market crashes? What if we need the money? What if, what if, what if that's really an, an emotional concern. They're worried, they're finding things that might go wrong that they could be worried about and they're telling you right there that giving them more data is not going to help them not be worried. If you address their, their worry about the market crash, then their worry will move to some other thing. So you have to address the actual route which is being worried that this thing, this countercultural thing. What do you mean, retire early? What if that doesn't work for us? You have to address the worry about that.

[A]

And I'm sure we will get into that at length during this episode. Because addressing that worry, I don't know necessarily that a lot of people have the skills to do that off the top of their head or even know how to get to the root of the issue. So let's clearly put a pin in that. I think that's something we'll come back to. Unless you want to talk about it now.

[B]

Well, let's come back to that. And I have a lot of skills or approaches or communication techniques we can talk about that help you better get to address the worry. But I want people to listen out for. If you're having this conversation with your spouse or your parent or a friend and they come at you with, here's why I think this isn't going to work. Understand the emotion behind what they're saying. They're not trying to help you problem solve this better. They're trying to tell you they don't believe in it. And no amount of numbers is going to help them believe in it. That you have to address their emotions and their values.

[A]

So not believing. Is there any aspect of it where. Let's say this, just someone who's again in that group, but let's say your parents and they don't have a direct financial impact for whether you do this or you don't necessarily. But is there any aspect of worry? How do you discern the difference between them not believing in it and them having concern for you?

[B]

I think they go together. I think one of the universal truths is if you're talking to a parent, they're going to worry about you no matter how old you are. But I think the beliefs influence their emotions. So if fundamentally they don't believe in it and that leads them to be worried you're making a mistake, you have to address the worry about making a mistake before you can get to their belief.

[A]

Gotcha. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for bearing with me with the questions. You had this list of five things that doesn't work, and we barely made our way through them.

[B]

I love the questions. So the first one was leading with numbers and spreadsheets. That's not going to work. The next one, I think that I see people in the FI community are really excited about fi, and there are so many FI terms. I'm using one right now. Fi. But terms like FI Safe withdrawal rate. Fat Fi, Lean Fi, Coast Fi, Roth versus traditional sequence of return risks. Mega Backdoor Roth, Geo arbitrage. Like all of these things are cool and they're cool to learn about and they make you sound smarter when you say them to other people. But they also can be alienating. If someone is not part of this community and has no idea what Mega Backdoor Roth really is, you're actually not bringing them with you. You're pushing them away. You're signaling that like I have membership in a group that you don't have and you've created social distance rather than trying to make them be part of the conversation. So pwn language just lands better. You don't have to show somebody how smart you are, how much effort time you've put into planning to convince them that this is a good idea.

[A]

I think that's useful no matter what. Nobody ever got closer to you when you knocked them down with jargon. You want people to actually understand. That's the whole explain it like I'm five concept. Try to get people to relate as opposed to trying to wow them.

[B]

Yeah, I think that there's a inherent mistake that people make, which is, oh, if I show somebody how much time and effort I've put into learning all of this, they'll think I'm gonna do better at this, they'll believe me more. But oftentimes it kind of just pushes them away and they're sort of not part of the conversation anymore.

[A]

All right, what's the third one?

[B]

Number three is framing it as early retirement. I don't like the word retirement. It carries a lot of specific imagery and sort of a script around what retirement is. I just came back from a beach vacation. I was sitting on the porch looking at the ocean with my little umbrella drink. That's what people think of when they think about retirement, that you're like done with a productive life. Especially parents hearing that you're 30 something, 40 something old year old, kid, plans to retire early, has all these kind of schemas around laziness, entitlement. Your friends are now getting jealous. Like I think it's signaling the wrong thing. We're not really necessarily interested in retirement. We're not like leaving part of society and not doing anything anymore. So I wouldn't frame it as retirement. I would frame it as work, optional security, autonomy, independence, those kinds of things. Number four, this one sounds obvious, but presenting FI as a done deal when you're talking about planning. So I think a lot of people discover fi spend months learning Come up with a plan, go to their spouse, and they're like, let's do this. And here's the plan. And your spouse is going to be like, no, because they're not part of this journey. They've just been given the plan. Like, they don't have the same emotional investment in this. And why would they want to be having this conversation with you? So framing it as like, let's explore this together. Here's a concept I'm interested in. Even if you've done months of research on it already, bringing them along with you for the ride is much more important than, like, here's what we're going to do today.

[A]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I suspect that's the starting point where I'd like to start with the actually talking to the spouse. But I know the last one you have is evangelizing for Fi.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm excited about Fi. I like talking about Fi. But if I push it into a conversation with my friends or other people, that they're just not interested in it, and nobody wants to be told that their spending isn't good. Don't jump into a conversation. Well, actually, you know, kind of let people make their own choices.

[A]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So, yeah, getting into the actual topic of talking to your spouse or partner, to me, I think that perfect starting point is, like I said, get them on board, have joint ownership, have some understanding of, like, we're both sitting down. I think back to Scott and Taylor Rickens. They were many, many, many years ago. Scott created a documentary called Playing with Fire on the Fly. Community on their own journey. And one of the best things that I thought anybody has ever done with getting their spouse on board was. Was really starting with, hey, let's sit down and write out the things that we love doing. What do we want? Our day and our month? What are the things that light us up? And. And what was so interesting about their list was that very few of them when Taylor wrote her list, because Scott was the one who found it first. Taylor's list contained almost nothing that actually cost money, which is so fascinating. And then it was, oh, but yet we're living in this high cost of living area, San Diego, and. And we're spending all this money, and these aren't even any of your top 10 priorities, which I thought was really interesting. And then. Then you move on to, like, a North star of, why are we doing this? What are we doing? And I contrast that with, like you said, presenting Fi as a done deal. Like, it's really great that you went out and did all this research. But I, I would think at that point, and clearly I want to get you in on this, is now is the time to start talking with your significant other as opposed to like you said, like, then you went and did the plan and like, here's our whole plan for the next 20 years. I don't care if you're in. The implication is you're in. So we're just doing this tomorrow. I mean, that is just on the face of it, a terrible strategy. So joint ownership, I think is the launching off point for all right, how do we start this?

[B]

Yeah. And I think ownership is really the word you both have to have buy in. We know that from research that couples with shared goals, goals that are formed collaboratively work so much better. And if FI is actively pursued by only one person and just tolerated by the other person, it's not really likely to be successful. I think you have to come together and have these conversations early on in the planning. Do it together. The reason that it's so important in spouses and partners is because you share a financial life. And yeah, if you're married, there's tax benefits to that. Combining two incomes and shared fixed costs is important, but you have to agree together on what your life is going to look like day to day in order to be successful at fi.

[A]

Like where would you start then with the conversation.

[B]

So everything you talked about in that documentary with Playing with Fire, they were values. North Star is another word for a value, like your main guiding value in life. Figure out what your values are. Where do you have overlap and make that what you work for. Not a savings rate. That's not exciting, that's not going to get you out of bed every day. What do you really value and how do you want to live your life? So there are a few questions you could explore. My favorite one is if you woke up one day and you didn't have to worry about money or work ever again, how would you know? What would your life be look like? What would that day be like?

[A]

I like that it's interesting, Jasper, because something I've started thrown around and especially on my newsletter is I'm calling it the Tuesday Project. And it's not designing some fancy trip or I'm going to scuba dive the Great Barrier Reef or even climb Mount Fuji, which we've talked about. But what does a perfect Tuesday look like? Because I think life is built around just really great Tuesdays or really great Thursdays. Pick a day I'm Picking Tuesday. But it's an interesting exercise in both imagination but iteration as well. I've found in that that's going to change. That's always going to change. And I think that's a fun part of life and fi is what I think I want. Ten years from now could change a month from now or a year from now or nine years from now, or it could be exactly the same. And I think that to me, is this constant iteration of getting closer and closer to the things that you want and you desire in just a day, a single day. So is there an exercise that. And I love that question, that framing. How would you know? I'm probably jumping years ahead at this point, but as part of this start with values and this North Star, would that be a useful exercise to try to think about that perfect day, or is that just way ahead of the. The game at that point?

[B]

Yeah, that's what this question is asking you to do. To think about a regular day where you don't have. You don't have worry about money or you're not stressed about work. What does that day look like? There are like a million different values worksheets. You know, lists of values online. You know, you and your partner print two out, go to separate parts of your house and circle them and come back. And like, what do you have overlap on? Like, if you both select family, great. What does that mean to you both? What does that look like? How do you want to live your life? That's more related to having the values of being a good family member.

[A]

You said there were a couple questions, and that was the first one.

[B]

Yeah, that's my favorite one. So I led with that. But what would it look like if we had more control over our time together? What's something we've kept saying we'll do when things slow down, but we never have done? These are other ways to kind of get at values and also behaviors that you want to be engaging in but keep putting off for some reason.

[A]

All right, I love that. Yeah. If we have a list of those questions or I suspect we'll get into this in a bit, but maybe that's something we could add. Either you could send people to a particular resource, or we could put in the show notes.

[B]

Yeah, I'm happy to send something for the shownotes, of course.

[A]

Okay, so where do we go from here?

[B]

I think the. The next step is to figure out, how do you actually get into this conversation? How do you start talking about values with your partner? And there's a specific Communication approach that I really like.

[A]

Nice. Okay, before you get into that, I think the nuts and bolts of this are so important because there are a lot of people out there who. Who struggle with this. So how would you even start? Okay. I'm the person who has been learning about five for a month or two. I'm really excited. I think this could change our lives. How do you even broach that subject? Like, hey, I. I've been learning about this new thing. Or like, I know this is way before the values, but, like, how do you even bring it up? I think a lot of people are going to be afraid to even bring it up for fear of that initial reaction.

[B]

Sure, That's a great question. Let me give you two opening lines and we'll compare them. One opening line is, I've been running numbers on early retirement. And let's talk about the math of how we could do this. I found this really great expense audit tool, and in order to reach our goal of $2 million in 10 years, we need to stop going to restaurants.

[A]

That's so great.

[B]

Yeah, a normal opening would be. I've been thinking a lot about what we actually want our lives to look like in 10 years. Not just financially, but how do we spend our time? If you woke up one day and you didn't have to worry about work again, what would that day be like?

[A]

That's a great foray into a thought experiment that then leads into, okay, what are our shared values? What are we looking for? And then you can start getting into. I suspect we can move along from there. So. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. That's. That's very, very helpful.

[B]

Or you can say, hey, I get this newsletter and they ask a really interesting question. What does a perfect Tuesday look like for you? It doesn't have to be about fi or finance or anything. Just open up the question about values. It doesn't have to be high stakes yet.

[A]

I like that. And frankly, that kind of conversation is just good for a relationship. Also, I would suspect it's in the sense that I want to know more about my partner. Even if it doesn't go anywhere from there, then that's not such a bad conversation. What does a perfect Tuesday look like for you five years from now or even tomorrow? There's nothing wrong with that.

[B]

At worst, you have just come up with a plan for your next day off. Nice. I want to pull back the curtain on psychology a little bit and tell you kind of like the wizard of Oz, what we're actually doing a lot of times. But there's this communication approach I use every day with my clients, frankly, in my personal life too. It's called motivational interviewing. And it's a form of communication that has specific components to it. It's evidence based. It's developed specifically for helping people find their own reasons for change and say them out loud. The fundamental idea behind motivational interviewing is that people are always more persuaded by arguments they generate themselves than by arguments you present to them. So if we're using this as a framework for communication, your job is not to present them with compelling arguments. It's to have the kinds of conversations where they make their own compelling arguments.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Around a shared goal, which in this case is Fi. So there's a lot of different ways to do this, and I'm not trying to overcomplicate things, but one really helpful framework I think is when you're having these conversations to use the skill of elicit, provide, elicit. So first you elicit their perspective. And we're going to do that using open ended questions. You'll notice all of the questions I asked all started with the word what. What does this look like? Okay, could be what, how, why? Those are all open ended questions. Close ended questions are yes, no, do you like ice cream? That's a yes, no question. What flavor of ice cream do you like is an open ended question. Now we're talking more about ice cream. So you can get into any conversation more deeply by using an open ended question. So we're going to ask their perspective with an open ended question and then wait for it, actually listen to their response. That's groundbreaking.

[A]

I know for a lot of people that is groundbreaking.

[B]

Fair enough. We want to open the door with this open ended question and then from there you can provide some information. If I start by providing you're kind of on your back foot, I want to tell you about Fi. I'm not really interested in hearing about that. No, thanks. Okay, that's the end of the conversation. But if I ask you what was a perfect Tuesday look like? And then you tell me a bunch of things and I say, well, there's actually something I've been reading about that could help us get there more quickly and we don't have to work all the time, do you want to talk about that? And then you can give information. Now we're in a conversation now. I can give you more information and then I can ask you, what do you think?

[A]

Right. And they're already emotionally bought in. Right. Because they just had this amazing thought exercise of what does Their perfect Tuesday look like.

[B]

Yeah. And then the last illicit is really important too. So then you are helping them solidify that this whole conversation where they've talked about their own reasons for changing and pursuing fi, you ask them like what do you think they're going to be like well this sounds great, let's do it. Rather than Brad, stop talking at me about finance. I don't want to hear that.

[A]

Okay, the second elicit there is really just a simple what do you think? This is not like a Machiavellian thing but like in essence they're convincing themselves that this was their idea. Right. Like so you're not stuffing it down someone's throat. They thought about it, you provided some info and asked, hey, what do you think? And if they at that point say well yeah, that sounds great, it's their idea, it's not yours.

[B]

Yeah, it's at least a shared idea.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But a lot of people I think approach these conversations backwards. They try to give all the information up front but the person you're talking to just not ready to hear it. And because they're not ready, they don't listen openly and they're going to be defensive. They're going to already think, you know, what's Brad trying to sell me? I'm, I'm not buying. Right. But if you bring them into the conversation with this values based topic first and get them on board of why this is important. Well here's an one approach we could explore together to go down this important path. Do you want to try it?

[A]

Yeah, I like that. So right, you're not convincing, cajoling, you're advocating, you're just having a conversation. And again so elicit, provide elicit. I like that. What's up next after this? Jasper?

[B]

Yeah. I'm going to talk about couples therapy for a second and some relationship research. But in this conversation people are going to tell you what's important to them and what's not important to them and what they're concerned about. And I think it's really important to validate those concerns and what's important to them before you respond. So there's a really famous psychologist, John Gottman, who's like one of the fathers of couples therapy and they have this thing called the Gottman method and they call them the four horsemen of relationship conflict which is contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling and criticism. And these are patterns that break down the relationship. So if you're having this conversation about fi and your partner's not really into it and you go into like well, you never listen to any of my ideas. And now we're, like, down this whole other path that's like the four horsemen of relationship conflict. So we don't want to do those. And one of the ones that I think is most relevant here is defensiveness, which is what you get when a partner feels that their concern is being dismissed. So if. If we're having this conversation about Fi and I start talking to you about investing, and you start telling me, well, I'm worried about the market. I mean, it's gone up and down a lot recently. I heard it on the news. Are you sure it's a good time? And I get defensive because I've done all this research about time in market, beats timing the market and all that stuff. That's not going to help us move together towards this shared goal. So we have to sidestep our own defensiveness. And the way to do that is to validate their concern and talk about it openly.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Validation is not agreement. You can acknowledge something without agreeing with it, but you have to acknowledge it as a real concern. That's a barrier for them. Whether it's reasonable or not, that's their barrier, and you have to validate it and address it.

[A]

Okay. Are there specific phrases or scripts that would be an acknowledgment when you are explicitly not agreeing?

[B]

Yeah, I think you want to say it in a way that is true to you, but saying that makes sense and reflecting back what they just told you, if someone said to me, like, oh, the market's up and down a lot, investing feels kind of risky. I'd rather just keep it in cash. You could either show them the Dow Jones chart since inception from J.L. collins's book, and, oh, that's not a real concern. Don't worry about it. Will be fine in 20 years. And that kind of steamrolls their concern. Or you can validate and say, yeah, that makes sense. It does feel risky, and there has been a lot of volatility. What would make you feel better? How do you want to explore that concern? There's a lot of data out there, but what do you need to know?

[A]

Okay, another one that I just thought of that I use occasionally in my own life or have used is like, oh, I know exactly what you mean. I used to think that or feel that exact same way, too. And then it's like, with investing, it's a perfect example. Mine is always, I know I'm a cpa and I theoretically should know this, but investing scared the heck out of me. I didn't have any idea until I read J.L. collins Simple Path to Wealth and it finally clicked for me. Something like that. Believe me, I've been there. I get it. That's the exact same thing I'm thinking. Of course you're not. Nobody's saying be insincere and make that up. But if that is the case, I found that to be. It's just a way to connect.

[B]

Yeah. And you have this expert status so you can kind of help people understand what the rest of this journey looks like. I've been in your shoes and now I'm over here. If you're both starting out together, I think you can validate. Yeah, that makes sense. I kind of feel that way too. Let's look into this and make it a shared project that you explore together and get an answer to together.

[A]

And that goes back to the very beginning, the joint ownership. If we're in this together, we're figuring it out. This is a team and if it works, it works for us. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. But we're going to do our best to figure it out. I like that.

[B]

Yeah. So just to tie this all together, I mean these conversations are hard. We like to avoid hard conversations. But if this is truly a goal for you, you're. You want to get on the path to fi. You want to bring your partner or spouse along with you. You have to open the door for this hard conversation and start to explore values together. You know, use this illicit, provide elicit framework with open ended questions and make it a joint goal that you work towards. And one of the ways to really solidify that on an ongoing basis is the money date you had a guest on a while ago and I'm forgetting their name or in the episode, but they talked about the planning party and I love that framework.

[A]

Oh yes, I think that was Andy Hill.

[B]

I think that might be right. But I love that the term party because it's like a fun thing. It's not like, oh no, we have to sit down and look at our net worth now. Like it's a fun event that you get to do as a couple or as a family. I call it a money date. But the concept here is that regularly scheduled low stakes conversations are much easier to get into. So if every month you're talking about finances, you're talking about shared goals, that's a lot easier. You're prepared, it's on a calendar, you know this is coming than waiting for it to be a problem. And now emotions are high. It's much harder to have an effective communication when you're both high emotions and it's feeling urgent.

[A]

That makes sense. So this is a planned money date or regularly scheduled on whatever cadence you want. I've definitely like you. I've heard a lot of people do this monthly, but by no definition does it have to be monthly.

[B]

Of course, no, it could be quarterly. Like, that's when you update your net worth spreadsheets like you want it to be regular. Probably yearly is not enough, but some regular cadence throughout the year will be helpful. The reason it's helpful is because you both know it's coming and it's not high stakes.

[A]

Okay. Right. It's not like I'm picturing a meeting like the emergency meeting, which is the epitome of high stakes. Like, oh, we have to do this. This is so important. Things are going wrong. And then emotions get high, defensiveness comes in. What am I doing wrong? Are we going to go bankrupt? You know, all of these things start spinning in your head and it's amazing how our minds go to negativity. I'm currently renting a condo and I'm just thinking this, it's funny because this is applicable to like that emergency meeting, which is like, you know, he sent a message like, you, hey, can we talk? And it's like, no, what's going on? Are we going to get kicked out? Like, my mind goes and like, frankly, my life would be perfectly fine, you know, if he decides to sell his place, we just move to another place. It's no big deal. Would it be annoying? Yeah, but like, Jasper, no joke. This happened not a week or two ago and like, that's where my mind went. So I think whenever this like, nebulous, like without explaining and somebody can construe it negatively, I feel like the specificity of like, hey, I want to talk about X for y reason or something like that. Or in this case, again, hey, this is just something we do, good, bad or indifferent. It's not. There's no implication that something bad's going on. It's just this is a regularly scheduled money date. This is what we do as a couple. And it's just on the calendar. So I like that. I'm curious. Are there any like, do's and don'ts? Are there structures that you've found that work? I know you work obviously with people in. Many of your clients are either in the fight community pursuing fi. So like, you've seen this on the ground, like, what works, what doesn't Work.

[B]

Yep. I think having an agenda that's set in advance so you, you both know what you're getting into in the conversation is helpful and you can kind of prepare for it. Progress on your shared goals, any upcoming big financial decisions that you have to make. Anything that's bothering the other person, don't ambush your partner. This isn't like a moment to be like, well, and since you said that, now I'm going to bring up this thing from three months ago that bothered me. No, no, no, that's not helpful.

[A]

Holding grudges does not work.

[B]

Correct. That's like one of the four horsemen of relationship problems. I think these meetings are better when there's no phones, the TV's not on in the background. This is just like, just what you're doing. And one thing I would recommend is no problem solving until both people feel like they're on the same page.

[A]

Okay, tell me more about that.

[B]

Everybody gets their concerns out, their thoughts, their emotions, and then you come together to problem solve. This isn't like a one sided, like, oh, I'm worried about this. Well, let's figure out the solution to that. Like, we're going to put it all on the table and then we're going to pick which problems we work together on.

[A]

Okay. So that's a running theme of the episode so far is the emotions come first, always.

[B]

As a psychologist, yes, that's my opinion.

[A]

Okay. And yeah, maybe always is a strong word. I realize I set you up there, but that's very good to know.

[B]

The emotions are important and if we don't acknowledge them, we're kind of going to be fighting an uphill battle. And then the last thing is just this is, as we talked about at the beginning, an emotionally laden topic. And I think it's important to have a stopping rule for the meeting. If you're getting too heated, the conversations kind of verging on the cusp of becoming an argument. End the meeting, you know, reschedule it, come back at another time when you are not as emotionally charged. Hmm.

[A]

All right, that's good to know. I'm curious about. So you mentioned no phones, no screenshots. My mind goes to location. I'm not sure that it matters necessarily, but do you think there's a higher likelihood of success if you make it like an actual date and you go somewhere specific or like, is there anything to having ritual around this?

[B]

I think it makes it more fun. Like you're probably less likely to get into a big argument about money if you're at a restaurant. But I will say that it's different for every couple. And you may not feel comfortable having this conversation in public and you want to do it in your home, that's fine. But I think if you can make it somewhat special, that's why I use the term date. Like, yeah, make it special. Open the nicer bottle of wine or cook something cool or go to a restaurant, whatever it is, but make it something kind of like to commemorate. We're doing this now.

[A]

Okay. Now that we talked about, like the nuts and bolts of that. I'm curious, like, ultimately, at the end of the day, what if one partner wants to pursue Fi? Forget the money days, we're still back on the getting into it. One wants to pursue fi and the other just isn't on board. You know, my mind goes to. This is like a significant, potentially irreparable issue, but I don't think irreparable is a bit of a stretch. What are your initial quick hit thoughts on like one partner is just is vehemently opposed and one is all in or some combination thereof?

[B]

Yeah, well, financial disagreements are the strongest predictor of divorce. Among all relationship conflict types, finances are the number one. So there's something to what you're saying. When you pose this question to me, my first thought was why? Why is the other partner not on board? What do they feel like they're going to be losing out on or missing out on if you pursue fi? Because I think that there's obviously degrees of fi, I think you can maybe pursue it on a longer timeline and have a less aggressive savings rate. But is one partner just like anti saving completely? Like, I think I have to understand why do they not want to do this? What do they feel like they're being deprived of by saving money and explore that and really get at, you know, if it's a status thing or if it's a friendship thing or whatever it is, you need to understand why so that you can address how to solve that problem together.

[A]

Okay. And yeah, I was going to have a follow up question about like, what if one partner wants to leave their job and the other doesn't? But I suspect it's. Well, a. Of course, just like you and I have been explicit about saying fi and not fire because the whole point of the show choose Fi. We didn't make it choose fire because they think the retire early is so loaded. My eyes. It's always been anybody can do anything they want if they want to continue working. When you reach the point of financial independence, that's Great, as long as you're doing it from a place of autonomy and strength as opposed to from need and lack. So yeah, it's probably a bit of a strawman to say, but what if one wants to leave their job and the other doesn't? But in essence, I guess your answer to any of these questions is ultimately, well, why is there such a vehement disagreement or such a strong mindset, I guess around something that like we're talking about. I don't want to use these like broad terms, but like pursuing fi, it's pretty hard to argue against that in any way. Like having more, more autonomy, more control over your life, having financial freedom. I don't know that there's any necessary like that I can come up with off the top of my head. Any necessary negative to that. So if someone's vehemently opposed to it, like presumably there's some reason or lack of either knowledge and I know how loaded that can be, or they're not emotionally resonating with it. So that's a big word salad for. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.

[B]

Yeah. Get into this conversation with them. Elicit, provide, elicit. What is stopping you? What is the barrier? What's getting in the way from being on board with this? What are you worried about? What do you feel you're going to miss out? All those are all open ended questions. Listen to what they say and then come together to try to solve that. Also, I think that we get stuck in all or nothing thinking either I'm FI or I'm not phi. But that's not true. You could start really small for the next year. You could each commit to shaving off a hundred dollars from your budget. We know you talk all the time about what a hundred dollars a month does, but like, is your partner completely unwilling to find a hundred dollars a month to save? Like, let's just start there. It doesn't have to be. We need a 50% savings rate. Yeah. That might be too much, too fast for someone.

[A]

Okay, so. Right. If you're. Yeah. Just simply not on the same page. That portends larger issues. Right. If we can just have small goals. Like I always think of it as working as a team and like man, if we're on the same team, it becomes fun. Like five was always fun for me though I suspect we're kind of maybe going down. All roads lead to what we've been talking about for the last 20 minutes. But I'm curious, like, does anything else jump off your mind of like strongest Predictors that couples will successfully pursue fight together. We've talked about a lot of them but anything else jump to mind?

[B]

Shared values, shared excitement, making it like a game or something fun that you get to work towards as a couple and it can actually make your relationship stronger if you have this clearly defined shared goal that you're both working towards.

[A]

I feel like this has been a really good deep dive into how to get a spouse or significant other on board. I know at the outset of the episode we talked about four different aspects of relationships that we might dive into and we spent an hour talking about this really critical one which I think was well worth it. So parents, kids and friends are the three other groups and maybe we can do a follow up episode. I suspect this is going to be really well received this one and people will have follow up questions just in fact for spouses, significant others. Thoughts on doing a second episode on, on those three other groups?

[B]

Yeah, I would love to do another episode and, and cover the, the rest of the important relationships. I think spouses, partners, probably the most important which is why we led with it. But yeah, I guess I, I, I pulled to Jonathan and you know he set up all these things I wanted to talk about and you and I got into a deep one and, and just didn't get to the rest.

[A]

Oh Jonathan, he came on a couple episodes in, in early January and we're going to talk about 157 things today and then we talked about like four and we got some nasty gram emails of or comments on the episodes like come on guys, don't set it up. But I mean he's just overly effusive in his, in his excitement and such. So yeah, I like the, the callback to good old Jonathan but so let's, we'll put a pin in that for sure. But I know you really wanted to leave everybody with some real practical frameworks and takeaways and I think you've alluded to these certainly over the last hour. But I want to just give you the stage to really explain this and leave people with. Okay, here's where you can go because again, Choose a VI is all about taking action. So here's when you hit stop on this episode, here's what you can really take away from this.

[B]

Yeah, I would love for people to have some big takeaways. So the first one is that you cannot beat an emotional concern with a logical argument. You're just going to hit them over the head with data and it's not going to land well and what it is. Another way that can be much more effective is to kind of start a conversation where people are finding their own reasons for engaging their own reasons for why they want to pursue fi. Not your reasons, not your data. And there's four main skills here to remember in having these conversations. The first is open ended questions. These are not yes, no questions. A lot of them start with the word you know, who, what, where, when, why, those kinds of things. If you were to wake up one day and you didn't have to worry about money or work, how would you know? That is an open ended question. You can get into values. The next is affirm the other person's concerns. You don't have to agree with them, but you do have to acknowledge them. The next is to reflect back to the person what you just heard them say. So you're not necessarily providing a summary, you're just reflecting what you think you heard. It sounds like you're most worried about security. Did I get that correct? You're most worried about volatility in the market, is that right? You are confirming with them that you are actually listening to them and you're also getting information about what you need to talk about next. And then the last thing is just to summarize the conversation before you move forward. So you want more freedom in your life and also to feel less worried about money. Do you want to talk more about that? Would that be okay?

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Open ended questions, Affirmations, reflections and summarize.

[A]

Okay. And this is the motivational interviewing that you mentioned earlier, correct?

[B]

Yes. And this is something that therapists do all the time. It's a, it's a way to have these conversations where you get people to talk about their own goals. Your job is to make them talk more than you.

[A]

Oh, that's brilliant. So you're not trying to win an argument. This is not like we're keeping score. I'm assuming that's part of, I don't know if that's necessarily one of the four horsemen, but it's gotta be pretty close. You're just trying to talk and you're trying to ask questions and you're trying to reflect back and affirm them and understand them and, and really get to the emotion.

[B]

Yeah, listen to what they tell you. They're going to tell you their own reasons for fi, and they're going to provide their own arguments for why you as a couple should pursue it.

[A]

Okay, Jasper, that seems eminently doable because I think so many people, even with their closest relationships, there's this worry. There's like, is it going to be an argument? Are they going to get defensive? Is this going to go poorly? Am I this thing that I'm super excited about, am I just going to get shut down? And it's hard to imagine in a moderately functional relationship that when you lead with this curiosity, when you lead with open ended why Questions. What questions? That anything terrible is going to come out of this. And not only not anything terrible, but like I would imagine there's a real high likelihood that you're going to end up closer at the end of this conversation than before. And isn't that what we all want? That's such a beautiful thing. And like these like very specific ways of approaching this. This is going to be really helpful for people. So thank you so very much. I really appreciate this.

[B]

My pleasure. I'm always happy to talk about this. It's hard to mount a defensive response when someone is bringing you in like this. Like it's hard to yell back. It's hard to have an argument if you're just open and curious. What does a perfect Tuesday look like for you?

[A]

I love it. Any final takeaways or thoughts that you want to pass along?

[B]

Yeah, I think people are pretty good at navigating their own relationships and having these conversations. But if you are having problems or consistently falling into unhelpful communication patterns, that might be a good indication that you want to reach out for some help. And there's many ways to find couples therapists or just people to help with these conversations as well. They don't necessarily have to know about fi, they can just know about communication. I'm also happy to serve as a resource and people can find me on my website, which is Jasperleephd.com I'm licensed now in 41 states and I work with a lot of people in the choose FI community who are navigating psychological relational dimensions of phi.

[A]

Yeah, that's really wonderful. So that's Jasper Lee. L E e p h d.com and we'll have it in the show notes. But yeah, sometimes if people are listening to this it's. That's a pretty easy one to remember. So. Jasperleephc.com Jasper, I really appreciate you putting this together. I think this is going to help a lot of people. Like I've said repeatedly already. Yeah, let's definitely plan that follow up. And also for everybody listening to this, you can comment on these episodes and both Jasper and I will keep an eye on the comments. So just go to choose a veta. Com the episode number. I'm not 100% sure what episode that's going to be most likely. 608 Choose a Veticom 608 and you can leave comments on the episode, leave questions you already know. We're going to do a follow up on this with the other relationships, but we'd love to add further flavor to this or clarification if you need it and also share your wins. If you take something away from this episode that you found really useful and you implemented it in your life, we always want to hear your wins. We always want to that again on my newsletter choose subscribe that's one of the things that I put in every week is really six wins that people, we call them the 1% wins. Like what was that one thing you did this week to make your life better? And you. Yeah, we'd love to hear it. Jasper, thank you again for being here. I really appreciate your time. And for everybody listening, keep listening. Take action, most importantly, and try to live a wonderful life. I think that's why we're doing this. It's not about the nuts and bolts of money. It's about pursuing a life you want to live into. And I think an episode like this is really going to help.