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ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast
Always Come Back to the Why | Alan and Katie Donegan | Ep 569
01:26:49
Brad, Katie, and Alan Donegan discuss the significance of understanding the "why" behind pursuing financial independence (FI). They delve into their journey, emphasizing the importance of community, intentional spending, and lifestyle design....
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- [00:00]
A
Hello and welcome to Choose a Fi. Today in the show we have my good friends Katie and Alan Donegan from the Rebel Finance School. And they're back for another fun, far ranging, random episode. And this episode has a little bit of everything, but it ultimately surrounds always come back to the why. What's that huge why? Why are we doing this? Why are we following this path to Fi? And it really can range from every aspect of our lives. We talk a lot about Allen and Katie's journey, their monthly finance meetings, tracking their spending, and really what are they spending on that adds value to their life, where can they spend less, and a whole host of other topics. I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. And with that, welcome to Choose Fi, Katie and Alan, welcome back to the show. This is going to be fun.
- [00:51]
B
I'm looking forward to it.
- [00:52]
C
I am so excited to be here. And we have a huge list of things. I was like, I have questions for Brad. I need to know, are we going.
- [00:59]
B
To put him on the spot?
- [01:00]
C
Oh, yes.
- [01:00]
A
Oh, boy. You guys. So we did this 10 episodes ago in episode 559, where we just have a fun conversation. We have this list of random Google Doc of all sorts of different topics and we just get into it. And you two definitely brought out the spicy side of me, which was fun. I. There was a 15 minute segment in there, I think from like the 44 minute mark where I'm like, I was just on fire. I listened back to it and it was a good time.
- [01:25]
B
Would you call it a rant?
- [01:26]
A
Yeah, maybe three rants. Three distinct rants. But yeah, no, that was fun. I think. I think people like these. I definitely got a lot of really positive feedback from that episode. And I think people really like hearing conversations amongst friends. Right? It's like, that's what's so great about podcasting generally, is it's you're a fly on the wall in a conversation that you'd like to be a part of if you had the opportunity. I think that's. That's why I listen to podcasts. So that's why we decided to do another one of these hot on the heels of the last episode. So I guess let's start with where in the world are the Donegans right now?
- [02:00]
C
We are currently in Palm Springs, California. We've come out to the desert to see what it's all about, and so far we are loving it because the hiking is beautiful, the scenery is gorgeous, the mountains, the sky is so blue.
- [02:15]
B
I was outside today and I was like, I didn't know the sky was that blue. We don't have blue sky in the uk.
- [02:21]
A
Three days a year.
- [02:22]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [02:24]
A
Oh, that's funny. So how long are you in the US for? And I think I saw you did an event with one of the chutes of AI local groups in la, maybe?
- [02:32]
C
Yeah, we did an event on Saturday where we did our talk about being a nomad from economy. We delivered it to the local Choose Fi group and we got another one coming up on the 26th of October where we're doing like a half day extraordinary event helping people with lifestyle design. And it's kind of our way of making friends. The Choose Fi groups are one of the most amazing ways to make friends and to meet people with common values, common ideas. So we love it everywhere we go in the world. Brad, we looked up the choose if I Germany group. We made friends through that. Like everywhere we go in the world we clock into the groups and meet people.
- [03:09]
B
What do you think about the community that you've built, Brad? Does it like blow your mind, like pinching yourself that this is something that you've created? That all this positive stuff, it is.
- [03:20]
A
Hard to wrap my mind around, honestly. I think frankly. And this is not like an all shucks thing, this entire thing, everything about Xuzaby is hard to believe sometimes. Right. It has taken on a life of its own and I think it would be. And this is not me being humble, it would be a very big exaggeration to say that Jonathan and I created the local groups in their current incarnation. Obviously we technically created them, but what's so beautiful about each of them is they're their own autonomous group. And we have these amazing local admins, we have these amazing members, tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of them all across the globe who are making their communities their own. And I actually, I just went to the Choose a VI Richmond meetup yesterday actually, and we had a case study and it was really fascinating. So the woman I'm dating, Erin, who you two know of course is she's from Cincinnati, which is actually where these case studies started. So it was so interesting. And of course a huge, huge thanks to Diana Merriam. And I know Jackie Cummings Koski has been really influential in creating some of the slideshows that are now done for these case studies. And that all started in Ohio, basically in Cincinnati and Dayton. So I'm like, Aaron, how does this compare? Because you just never know. Like, sure, it's the same concept as a case study, right? But you never know. Like each Local community can be different. And I think she was very pleasantly surprised at how many community members spoke throughout the meeting and how interactive it was. She said in hers, of course, there was always interaction, but it was slightly more subdued sometimes. And while there are pros and cons of both of them, I think what's so interesting is, like, I guess my ultimate point is every one of these local groups has their own. Their own flavor. And I know I just met recently with Brad and Rebecca from the Jacksonville, Florida group, which is one of the most successful groups in the world, actually, thanks to them, basically, and the amazing community they built. And it's just neat to hear, like, what are the events they're doing? What are they getting involved in? What kind of cadence are they doing? And so there's both a lot of differences, of course, a lot of similarities, as we are all five people. But it's nice when we can share those lessons, too. And I think that's what's been so neat about seeing something like those case studies go across the world. But anyway, I didn't exactly answer your question, but, yeah, it just. Of course, it blows my mind. It's freaking crazy that, like, every week, every day, basically across the world, there's a choose if I meet up, and it's like, that's my podcast. That's my community. So, yeah, it's. The whole thing is weird.
- [05:51]
C
It is an incredible thing. And if you're listening to this and you've always been, I feel like a bit of a loner. Like, my family, don't talk about this. I don't know who to talk about. About money. Like, join one of the groups. Find the people to chat to.
- [06:03]
B
We chat to people, and there's loads of people there that have joined the group, but perhaps never actually gone to a meetup because it feels scary. They're like, well, I don't know anyone. And everyone there knows each other. You know, we make up all these stories in our heads, don't we? Like, well, I'm going to be the outsider. People are so friendly at these meetups. They just, like, welcome you in, and it's just a lovely community feel. So if that's you and you're on the fence and you've been lurking, but not actually attending a meetup, I strongly encourage you to go.
- [06:32]
C
Yeah, come out of the shadows, stop lurking. Go meet some people.
- [06:36]
A
Yeah.
- [06:36]
C
And I think there's this story out there that it's difficult to make friends as an adult, and it's not our experience of the world because you can go to choose fi meetups and you can go to Toastmasters events and you can go to digital nomad groups and there are people everywhere who are searching for connection and like minded people. You just have to put yourself out there.
- [06:57]
B
I think people have very strict definitions of what a friend is. Perhaps as well, they say, well, it's hard to make friends. And it's like, well what, what is a friend? How do you know when you've made a friend? Perhaps you have low standards, Alan, which I think you know.
- [07:09]
A
Well, no, tell us more about that Katie, because honestly there, I guarantee you there are a whole lot of people nodding along to that. Like, yeah, it is hard to make a friend. I don't know what I would do. I'm X years old, I'm 30 years old, I'm 40 years old, I'm 50, whatever it is, right? Like, I mean you two travel the world and I know you have a huge network of friends and colleagues, acquaintance, whatever you want to call it, but friends really, how do you two make friends? What do you consider a friend? How do you keep in touch with so many people? Like these kind of things really matter.
- [07:36]
B
Yeah. And I think I obviously were saying low standards, tongue in cheek as in, you know, I don't have low standards for the humans that I choose as friends, but I have low standards, you know, a low bar as to what makes you a friend to me.
- [07:49]
C
And we discovered this talking to your brother about his categorizing of a friend. And a friend had to be someone you spoke to every day. It could not be someone you worked with. Like there was a whole bunch of criteria as to what a friend meant. And I don't have really very many criteria other than it's someone really nice and interesting that I've met once and that I can reach out to again. Like that's about it. That's my criteria.
- [08:18]
B
I think sometimes it takes like going first as well, right? Like you met someone, you had a nice connection and then you could say, oh, how about we hang out on X date? And like almost a bit like romantic dating, like someone's got to ask someone out, someone's got to like take the first move, make a suggestion. I think it's that fear of rejection. Just like in romantic life, there's fear of rejection from other humans platonically as well. So I think it's just having that bravery and then maybe you host something and you invite a bunch of people that you've met at a choose a fine meetup like you could have your own, like, sub hangout and the people that are brave enough to build those events. And it's not even an event. It's like, come and hang out my.
- [09:03]
C
Place and come and have guacamole.
- [09:05]
A
Well, yeah. And I think everything good in life, where a lot of good things in life come on the other side of being vulnerable. Right. And extending yourself a little bit. It's like, I've noticed this so many times just in the last couple years and in so many ways, but even just literally yesterday, right? So there were these two really interesting women, both happen to be named Emily, who both are friends, and they were talking about these hikes that they go on together. And they actually talked about. They both shared in the meetup about a lot of these exercises they've been doing that are actually similar to your extraordinary life building that they built off of both that and Jillian John's Rood's retire often framework thinking about, like, how do you design a life you want to live into? And they were talking about hiking in Shenandoah national park and the surrounding areas. And we were like, how do we get involved in this? This would be awesome. And like, you know, I actually reached out to them via Facebook messenger. And yeah, that does feel a little weird, like as an adult to ask somebody like, hey, can we be friends? But what's so beautiful I've noticed about the FI community is people are just so welcoming. I think this is why, like, we love going to live events we love going to, whether it's as far flung as Bali or a local choose of I meet up or a campfire economy, whatever it may be, people love these events. And it's because of the other people. And it's because, like, we're all there to make connections and sometimes you just have to step outside of your comfort zone just that little bit, 100%.
- [10:35]
C
So I have a question for you, Brad. What are your standards for friends? How do you know if someone's a friend? Obviously, the Donegans have made it in, so you must have low standards.
- [10:47]
B
That's very presumptuous of you, Alan.
- [10:49]
A
Well, yeah, no, you two very obviously are amongst the inner circle of friends, so don't worry. But, yeah, I don't know. For me, it's a feel. I just get a sense of people. Like a. I'm very open now. I think, frankly, most times in my life when I don't think I was that open. Maybe I was. I don't know. I don't want to use, like, negative or words that have negative connotations, but, like, shy or just a little hesitant to extend myself in some way. But I don't have that anymore. I really don't to a large degree. I think it'll always be kind of in there a little bit. But I've really stepped outside of my comfort zone, and I just try to meet people. I try to be friendly and nice. And it's funny. It's like, I feel like the world gives you back what you give it. And it's like when you have a very positive feeling about yourself and you're nice and gregarious and want to talk to people and are mostly interested in other people, like, you find, lo and behold, like, you meet a lot of interesting people and you meet a lot of people who are fun to be with and you just might keep in touch with. And I think I've seen a lot of that. Not that my entire social circle is five community members, but, you know, you meet dozens of people and you just. You just connect with some of them, right? And it's so easy to keep in touch now via like a WhatsApp or Facebook messenger or something like that. And, yeah, I mean, I don't have, like a bar, per se, of like, you have to be such and such to be my friend. Of course. Of course not. I just like. I just like hanging out with you, you know, And I've met people at my local Richmond meetup where I invited this guy John for a workout in the morning one. One Saturday, and we had a blast. You know, just talking about life, very similar lives, and English Premier League football, which you two would be appreciative of. And, you know, it's just like, hey, this is somebody I really like and I'd like to hang out with, you know, so sometimes you just. You make that ask and you just invite someone somewhere.
- [12:40]
C
The expression that's made a huge difference for me over the years is the quickest way to be interesting is to be interested. And I think so many times people like, I must rehearse telling my stories when I go to an event. Like, I need to be, like, outgoing. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Just ask a really good question. And that has more impact. And listen to the answer, and listen to the answer.
- [13:03]
B
Don't be preparing your next question or. Yeah, I think I showed that I was doing that when I interrupted you. And I was like, I've got something to say.
- [13:09]
A
But we.
- [13:10]
C
But we.
- [13:12]
B
And you said Brad as well, you know, how do you stay in touch with the People that we've met around the world and, you know, our friends in the uk. And the answer is that sometimes we don't. But it doesn't mean that we're not friends anymore. It just means that you haven't messaged in a while, a few months go by and you're like, oh, so and so popped into my head, I'm going to message them, see how they are. Doesn't mean we're not friends, but I think some people have that as a definition. Well, we must meet weekly or monthly or whatever it is. I must get a message from them. They must reply to my message within 24 hours. Like, I'm sorry, if you have that as a standard for me as a friend, then we won't be friends. Then from your side, we won't be friends. I think we're still friends. But, you know, we all have busy lives as adults and I think we all. Well, I'm going to project onto the world there. We, we all have this pressure that we have to reply to every message and respond to every notification that comes in. And of, of course, you, if you do that, you'll spend your whole life responding. Because what happens, someone sends you a message, you send a message back, they reply, they reply, I'm no longer on top of my messages. And you just have to accept that that's going to happen and accept that that doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't make you a bad friend. It makes you a busy, normal adult that has a life and has stuff going on.
- [14:22]
C
And I don't want to spend my life on Messenger. I don't want to spend my life on WhatsApp or Zoom calls. Like, I want to be living my life and having a breakfast burrito with my wife or playing board games somewhere.
- [14:35]
B
You have to acknowledge and accept that the other person's the same as well. So, you know, if they haven't replied, it's not because they don't like you and they're not your friend. Like, you have to understand it from both ways. And the minute you do that, I feel like the friends, you keep way.
- [14:48]
C
More friends that way.
- [14:50]
A
Yeah, yeah. And anytime you get into, like, the, the I should or I need to, like, you're talking about, like, you have to get in touch with them once a week for them to be friends. Like, that's crazy, right? Like, I think just in life, I don't know, like, I'm trying to avoid the shoulds. It's just such a negative mindset. Like, I should I have to do this. I should do it. It's like it's some outer expectation as opposed to. I think that's one of the really nice things about fi. And I'm really living into my fi life now, which is wonderful. And it's like I get to do things on my own volition and I get to do things that I want to do. And a phrase we used to use around here was front load the sacrifice. And I think that's a bit overwrought, frankly. I think that's a bit much because I've never viewed any part of the FI journey as real sacrifice. But I think even if you did phrase it as that, it's putting in the hard work for an intermediate amount of time. Let's say 10 to 15 years. Right. 8 to 15 years, something like that. In terms of your FI journey really buckling down, having a big savings rate, but you can still live a wonderful life. I think by any definition, that's what's so beautiful about the path to FI is it's an intentional path. So it's not about depriving yourself in any way. But then once you get there, and the three of us certainly know this, like we have the rest of our lives, the three, you know, we're in our 40s. We have 40 plus years, hopefully 50 plus years to do what we want in the way that we decide. And I think that is the most liberating thing that you could possibly imagine. And it's the. It's the antithesis of the. The shoulds. I don't ever think about should anymore. And it's just a really. Yeah, it's a really liberating thing.
- [16:30]
C
I think your expression of front load to sacrifice I completely get. It's like, do the hard work.
- [16:36]
A
Yeah.
- [16:37]
C
I would position it more as It's a sequen sequencing thing. So if you want to go on a super fancy safari in Africa that will cost you 20 grand. Do it when you've hit financial independence. Don't do it when you're on the way to financial independence. And it's a sequencing thing. Do the stuff that's free, picnic in the park with friends, like hanging out here, doing this. There's all this. You can still have amazing fun, but do the expensive fun later. Do the free fund first. And I see it as a sequencing issue rather than a.
- [17:10]
B
Well, you can spend that money from the growth of your investments rather than.
- [17:15]
C
From your income, which we had this expression of you can only spend every dollar or pound once. And then I had this realization a year ago because I would say to people, you can only spend it once. Do you want to spend it on plastic or freedom? What do you want to spend your pound or dollar on? Like, you have a choice. You could spend it on this or you could invest it in an index fund and buy freedom. Then I realized later on, oh, actually at the start you can only spend every dollar once, but later you can spend it many times because compounding turns it into many more dollars. So actually we've been able to spend every pound or dollar we've invested two or three times. And it's like this incredible thing that they keep sending me free dollars to spend. And now I'm like, now I have this realization that, like, spend it on the right thing early means you can spend it multiple times on things you love later.
- [18:10]
A
Okay, I want to make sure I'm understanding because I'm sure, you know, if I had a question, I'm sure a lot of people do. So you're talking about like the money you've. Of course, the conceptual framework I get. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna get into the maths.
- [18:21]
C
I love it.
- [18:22]
A
The math.
- [18:22]
B
He translated to British for us.
- [18:24]
A
I mean, I have to. I'm speaking to two Brits. Give me a break. So the money that you put in, the actual contributions, because that has compounded now for your adult lives and it is many multiples of that. Let's say it's 18 years on, it's minimum, probably four, five, six times what you actually put in, assuming it was all in one lump sum. I'm making major assumptions, but nevertheless. But you guys have actually. Because you've been pulling money out for the last five or six years since you hit fi, and have been full time homeless and unemployed, we call it. Right. So digital nomads is what most people would call it. You've actually pulled out either a significant portion of your original contributions or maybe even exceeding that kind of.
- [19:03]
C
The way I see it is we've tracked our entire life's income and we're worth more than we have ever earned. Wow. And I have lived. I've spent that money. I've spent it on trips, on food, on pizza, on gyms, on all sorts of stuff we can't talk about on this show. Show. I've spent a lot of money on different things and I'm worth more than I've ever earned. So technically I've lived for free. But then when you think about it at the start, when you're at the Start of your journey, you've got $10, and you could put that $10 in an index fund, or you could put that $10 and you could buy a pizza with it or whatever it is. And that's like spending it once. But if you choose to invest it, that will then grow. And you could spend it many times over the years.
- [19:54]
A
Yeah, I love that. I think this was originally something J.L. collins said. Right. It's like you're basically, you're buying your freedom. Or maybe he didn't originally say, but the most impactful version I heard of it was his. And it's funny because sometimes the little things are the big things in life. And when you hear something that's just that aha moment, it's like, oh, wow, that's how you explain it. And it was something to the effect of, like, most people think saving money is just deprivation. Like, I'm putting off. Like, I'm not doing what I actually want to do now. I'm just saving this for retirement or some other nebulous thing as opposed to, no, I'm in this moment. I'm taking this dollar and buying part of my freedom. That's a recharacterization of that that I think is really powerful. So that one that stuck out to me and. Yeah, I love how you put that out.
- [20:44]
C
Yeah. I just think it's created the lives we live today. And anyone out there who's listening to this, who's got a spouse that's struggling to get on board with it, that maybe you're feeling like, I'm sacrificing this and I'm sacrificing that, there's a way to reframe it, to buying your freedom, to being able to spend more later because you spent less now. There's a way to reframe it. And that's basically what we're trying to do, is just help people to think of it differently. Especially from the perspective of, we retired in 2019 with a million invested, we've spent a bunch of money, and we're now worth 2.4 million six years later. And your brain just can't compute, like, how did you spend money and double your net worth? How has this happened? How does it work? And it's the power of compounding. And I guess I want to say to it, for you, listening to this, this stuff is magic. And you don't have to understand it. You just have to invest your money.
- [21:44]
A
Wow, that's incredible. So 2.6 times. You're worth essentially 2.6 times what you're worth in 2019 and you've lived for the last six years. So lest anyone get the wrong impression, because I think we talked about this previously, like, some people have this like, crazy impression that, like, just because you create a blog or create a podcast, that like, all of a sudden you're someone who's rolling in money. And the vast, vast, vast majority, to the point of probably 98 to 99% of people who are creating content in the FI world are making very little to $0. So you guys did not hit the lottery. You're not making hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars every year from your, your business. I don't think you're. I frankly don't know what you're making. But, like, this was not like a, hey, we're all of a sudden raking in the dough. This was truly a compounding. Like you were living the fi life. You were still withdrawing money from that pot of money. You hit fi, you started traveling, and that money is just compounding in the background. And of course, as most of us know, the stock market has done incredibly well the last many years, but certainly the last six years. So Alan, help me understand this. Am I close to on target here?
- [22:54]
C
We have an income from our business because something happened when we hit financial independence is we left our business, the Rebel Business School, and we went traveling. And I was still an owner, but I'd never counted on having an income from it. So we still have an income that gives us a little bit, but we spend way more than that each year. Like we are in a deficit. So we're living off our portfolio that is paying for a portion of what we're doing. So we have lived off it and we actually end up spending like Rebel Finance School. People are like, how do you give Rebel Finance School away? It costs us more money to give it away than it makes. So we make, I don't know, like last year we made five grand off YouTube income. Woohoo. It cost me way more than that for the subscription software and the zoom software and the website software cost me way more than that. So we actually pay to give away a free course. So this thing of like, oh, all the fi people are making a fortune. Some of them make money. I don't think a lot of them make as much money as people think they do. And we lose money running Rebel Finance School, we just give it away. But that's what lights us up, that's what keeps us going.
- [24:11]
B
I think this is possibly motivated by fear of people Seeing the bloggers and the podcasters and saying, well, it's worked for them because they have income, but I can't quite trust that it will work for me because I am going to be living off 4% of my portfolio. It must be okay for them. It's not okay for me. And I think it's just that fear, isn't it, of, you know, there's these people that we listen to and read about, but they're not quite doing it properly in inverted commas. So therefore it's not quite real. And I'm going to keep working.
- [24:44]
C
My favourite example of this is Christian Bryce from Millennial Revolution. And they have portfolio A and portfolio B. And they literally separated their money and portfolio A was what they retired on and then they tracked that to see if it would last on a pure 4% test. And portfolio B was everything they made in retirement from writing a book or having a blog got stuck in another portfolio. Like, they didn't turn down the money, which I totally agree with. Take the cash. If you do something good in the world, take the cash. Yeah. Really did this test, like the pure test? Can we, what we originally retired on, actually survive? And it has. And I think that's the piece that people really need to know. And I also think, like, just because you retire doesn't mean if you retire in your 40s, you're probably going to make some money somehow. It will happen by mistake. Someone will say, you've got some skills, can you help me with this? And you'll go, that sounds like a fun project. Why don't I do it? And then we're back to the retirement police. Just because I've said I've retired, does it mean I have to turn down work? Do I have to turn down things that I want to do that I might earn money? No, do what you want to do and you might well just make some money. Also, you have no pressure to make money. You can just enjoy your 4% or your 5% and live life exactly as you want to.
- [26:03]
B
Which I think is why it's perhaps easier for everyone if you talk about being financially independent as opposed to being retired and like the work optional kind of idea. Because that word retired does bring in the retirement police. It does bring in a bunch of people when you're not doing retirement properly, are you because you're working, therefore you're not retired?
- [26:22]
A
Well, right. I mean, I think so many people are looking for excuses, right? They are scared and they're looking for excuses. And I think that's in so many areas of life. Right. This is clearly not just the FI community, but we also see that not only in the FI community with the money aspect, but just making changes. I think, let's be clear, like making changes, it doesn't necessarily come naturally to all humans. To most humans. We get in our little grooves, we're used to our lives, and that's the way it works. And a lot of people are hesitant to make change. And I think, I think a lot of. From my anecdotal experience of the fight community, many people in the fight community are quite open to new experiences, to travel to alternative different areas of life. And I mean, even just counterculturally, just what we're doing in general is countercultural, right? Like we're saving money. Ooh, that's so different. Right? Like we don't want to work until we're 70. Ooh, that's so different. Like, this should be the obvious path, but it is countercultural. Right? But nevertheless, sometimes you get caught up in this is what I do. And I've never, I've never expanded my horizon. And I think I noticed we had such a lively conversation in our choose of I local meetup yesterday. Like I mentioned, we had this case study and I think the couple who were presenting, I mean, they were marvelous and they. And they were so far ahead of the game, they were doing great. But I think a lot of the suggestions that people offered from the community and from the audience, they maybe had never thought about before, they never heard about it. And I think it was a lot to take in and I think that's normal. But what I hope for a lot of us, and I hope. Why people, while you're listening to this podcast and while you're spending time with me and amazing friends like Alan and Katie every week is because there's a wealth of information here and you're internalizing it at your own pace. Okay? It doesn't have to be. This is. Flip a switch. Aha. I'm in the fight community. Everything is different. Like, you need to go at your own pace. But I would implore you to be open minded to understand that just your one way of living isn't the only way of living. I promise you that. And it doesn't even mean it's the best way. Probably most likely isn't, you know, just you fell backwards into the best way of living. Like that just defies logic. Right? I think what we want to do is experiment. And I think what you guys have been doing I've seen so beautifully from afar is you've been experimenting with life for years now. And I think that kind of mindset leads to a successful life. Does it lead to absolute perfection every time? No, of course not. That's not the way the world works. It's experimenting, it's trying stuff out and it's failing spectacularly in whatever way you define that. And like, it's, oh, a little kernel of I really like this. Or, oh, maybe we could if we double down on this even. Probably Rebel Finance school is a perfect example. Like, you guys, I know you had a few hundred people the first maybe year or two or thereabouts, and now you have tens of thousands of people and in the course and like you stuck with it because you saw something there. Right. And you also found your why, which I think is really important.
- [29:29]
B
Yeah, like, there's so much I want to unpick from what you just said, Brad. And I feel like, first of all, it's not been a straight, easy path to get to where we are. And, you know, there's been bumps in the road, there's been bumps between ourselves and friction between us of figuring this stuff out. And we've been very good at this one area of life. And there's other areas of my life that when I'm trying to make changes, it makes me feel a lot more empathy for the people that come on our course and say, well, just tell me what to do. Just tell me exactly what to do. Be very prescriptive. And we say, no, you need to understand this. So then when I was looking at health and you recommended Brad, the podcast that Tim Ferriss did with Rhonda Patrick about all different supplements and how you do the hot and the cold exposure, and I found myself going, don't tell me all this detail and tell me why and how. Just be very prescriptive. Tell me what to do. And it made me understand that I've been very good at wanting and learning and understanding finances in that area of my life, but it doesn't mean I've necessarily applied it to other areas of my life. And I'm like, well, give me the shortcut. Tell me exactly what to do. And I've had exactly the same in my, like, personal development and figuring out a lot of my demons and things, I'm like, can someone just give me a recipe? And I don't have to think, just tell me what to do. And you, to a point you can, but it's not as long lasting or deep or real change making. So when you're talking about, you know, people find it hard to change. I want to tell you, and the listeners that's been me as well, just in other areas of my life that are kind of on catch up with the finances.
- [31:15]
C
I think I've learned to love change. So. So many people fear change because they're like, what if it gets worse? I've learned to love change because I think change brings new things, exciting things, and it quite often makes things better. And if it doesn't make things better, you just go to the back to the way they were, and you haven't lost anything. But if you never risk it, you'll never find something better. And I love your dad, and he had this thing of like, I found the best curry I could ever eat in, like, 1984, and I've never found a better curry. And don't experiment. And, like, that's it. We found perfection in 1984. Never change anything. It's almost as if, like, you can't experiment or find new things, or you close off to the rest of the world and finding amazing things and you might have a great curry, but that doesn't mean there's not another 47 great curries that will be equally good for different moods and different reasons, and you'll love them in the same way. So experiment and try stuff. And change can be the most amazing thing in the world, because if your life is okay, oh, to me, that's not good enough. Change it and you will find something that's spectacular or marvelous and it'll be great for a while, and then you'll change again and find something else. And you change as you age, and what you want and desire changes as you age. So you have to change. Life changes. The only constant is change, and it will either be forced on you, or you can choose to do it quicker than the universe forces you to do it.
- [32:51]
A
Yeah, certainly a very fair way of putting it. It's. Change is inevitable. It just is. I think it's a worse mindset when we dig our heels in and we try to hold on to what's there, to the past, to, hey, this worked. I'm never going to. To your point about the curry from 1984, like, okay, well, you know, things do move on and you can't hold on. I know I did this. Kitty, you talked about personal development. I was in a mastermind group, and this was a couple years ago. There were two groups and there was a change in how the structure of things were going and they were going to combine. And my initial thought Was hold on, hold on tight to the past. I don't want to change. I love this group. And I was literally the last person to make a decision on whether to move forward and join the new combined group, or essentially I didn't have an option to stay. It was either not go in or join this combined group. And. And I thought long and hard about it. I. It's funny, looking back with the benefit of hindsight, I don't know why I was so hesitant, but I think I just loved our old groups so very much that I just didn't want to see a change. But it was inevitable. To Alan's point, it was inevitable. I couldn't. There was no force of will that I could exert to keep that group together. It wasn't possible. That wasn't what was going to happen. So, thankfully, I did make the decision to join the new group and it was. It was a wonderful experience for the, however long year and a half or two years that it existed. And. And I'm so glad that I did. I would have missed out on friendships and relationships that are lifelong that I just simply would have missed out on. But my initial thought was, hold on to the past. Hold on to the past. And like, I consider myself at this point in my life, somebody who's open to change. And I. That still was there. So if you listening to this are saying, like, yeah, that's. That's me. I mean, I think, Katie, maybe you can give some advice because, you know, you're coming from the point of, hey, this is my natural tendency. But yet you've been living a life of change for the better part of probably almost a decade at this point. Like, how it's not a matter of overcoming. Overcoming is not the word we would use. But, like, what kind of strategies would you advise to that friend who's listening to us now? Who wants to know? Like, hey, Katie struggled with this. I struggle with it too. Like, how can I. How can I take steps to move forward?
- [35:11]
B
The first idea that popped into my head was like, getting Alan. I don't think that's an effective strategy for most people and not really a reproducible one. Because I think, Alan, I think you can probably tell from our different reactions and where we talked about change and me saying, like, I've been the hold on to how things are. And Alan's like, oh, look what this changed. Let's go over here and do this thing. And I have resisted and dug my heels in, to use your words, Brad. And then eventually I was like, oh, the things that Alan suggests leads to really cool stuff. So I'm not going to resist anymore. Or maybe a little bit less. Alan can tell you whether I still resist or not. And I know not everyone has an Alan, and I think I need to learn to do that for myself. And perhaps you can do that for yourself. So, you know, we all have these little ideas, maybe, that pop into your head and then you go, oh, well, no, I can't do that. But there is that wisdom inside you that says, oh, I'd quite like to try this. But then another voice will come in and say, no, we can't do that, because X, Y, Z. So I think it's listening to that voice and exploring it and just small steps at first of like, oh, how about I go to this new coffee shop that I've been meaning to try and that I haven't. That's a change. That's something different that you've never done. So I think maybe some. What's that thing called? Exposure therapy? A small change. Like, just get used to small changes. Anna laughs at me because when we go back to visit my parents, I will walk exactly down the road, across the road, at exactly the same point. Because many years ago I decided that that was the most efficient way to walk down the road. And of course, life is all about efficiency, Brad. There are no other possible reasons to live life.
- [36:58]
A
Never.
- [36:58]
B
I was like, oh, why don't we go this way? I struggled so much, I was like, no, what do you mean? You don't walk on that side of the road until this point later on. So it's interesting how deep that desire to be the same is. So I think it's those small changes that you can make to start building that muscle. What do you think, Alan?
- [37:21]
C
Cross the road at a different point, get over it, do something different, go to a different cafe, go to a different place, explore. And your life will be richer. And also, the space you create by doing something different allows the universe to create things and bring things into your world that wouldn't be there otherwise. Because you'll go to a different cafe and meet a different person. You'll cross the road in a different place and see a different thing. You will literally see the world in a different way. Walking down one side of the road as opposed to another. You've just got to try it. You've just got to do it. The more you mix your life up, the more you'll be used to change and going, actually, this is quite fun. What else can I explore? Where Else can I go? What else can I see? How else can I live a cool life and have nice experiences?
- [38:08]
B
And there might be times that you don't like the new coffee shop or you don't like that path.
- [38:14]
C
And there is a risk. There is a risk. You go to your favorite restaurant, you always have the same dish, and you know you love it. And then you're like, I really should try this other dish. You know, I've got to get out of my lane. I've got to try it. And you're like, well, that was a bit rubbish. That's not as good as the dish I always love. And there is a risk. But you might find something you love even more. You might find some variety. You might find something else. And I think it is worth the risk of having an experience that is not quite optimal to maybe uncover a bunch of incredible things.
- [38:45]
B
And you could always give yourself permission to go back. Like you said, you try something different, it didn't work. And it's like, maybe in that restaurant you say, well, I'm going to order this new dish and actually I'm going to put my money on this risk and say, well, if I don't like it, I'm just going to buy the dish I normally get anyway. But then you've, like, backed yourself up.
- [39:03]
C
That, you know, risk. You know, I can live with this. And if it doesn't work, I'll just buy the breakfast burrito. I love that. I don't care.
- [39:13]
A
It always comes back to the breakfast burritos. I like it. And yeah, I mean, you know, Katie, to your point, we don't all have an Allen, right? But can we try to internalize a little bit of what Alan just told us and take that into our lives, even if it's a little bit outside of our comfort zone? Right, it's going to be outside of our comfort zone, but I think so many good things happen. Again, on being on the other side of being vulnerable, taking risks, trying to do new things, like, all of these things, they just matter. They really matter. And, yeah, if it's uncomfortable, lean into it. I think we talked about this last time. Maybe one of my little rants was like, so many of us, right, like, we've been saving for most of our adult lives, and at some point we are going to have to withdraw money because that is literally the entire definition of five. That's what we're doing. That's what you two are doing every single year. And I would imagine every single month, depending on the cadence of how you withdraw money but you have to sell assets. It's just part of life. And is it going to be like a smiling and whistling all the way to clicking, selling that very first time? No, it's probably going to be a little bit uncomfortable, but you have to lean into that. You're an adult, you do hard things and you just have to click, sell. It's just part of life. And I think so many good things come from just that little bit of discomfort and leaning into it. And yeah, like if that means, like as an adult, you know, I'm a 46 year old guy, if that means like asking somebody like, hey, do you want to go on a hike with me? Like that feels a little weird. It would have felt weird when I was a 14 year old kid. It would have felt weird as a 46 year old man. Like it just feels weird. But am I ever going to get anywhere if I don't ask? No, of course not. I'm going to be sitting home, not hiking at that point. Right. So like what are we talking about here? So I think this is especially for the, the Brad and Katie's of the world who are, who are listening. It's like you got to sometimes go outside of your comfort zone and I think you're going to be very pleasantly surprised with how the world responds to you.
- [41:21]
C
So here's the challenge to everyone listening. This is your challenge. Ask someone out. That's your challenge for this week. Ask someone for a coffee, ask someone for a hike, ask someone to play board games, ask someone else.
- [41:34]
B
Because you're not talking romantically, are you? You're talking.
- [41:36]
C
Well, it could be whatever you want.
- [41:39]
B
Also the friendship wise, yes, just as.
- [41:42]
C
Friends was what I was thinking. But whatever you want. Go outside your comfort zone and ask someone out. I don't care who it is, what it's for, like, you seem really interesting, let's just hang out. And I always remember I read a book many years ago and it said you should ask a rich man for lunch. I was like, that's quite interesting, what does that mean? And he said, ask a rich human to lunch. Not because of the lunch, but because of what you'll learn from them just by asking them questions. And I remember thinking to myself, how do I do this? Like I don't even know a rich person. Like, how do I even do this? And I remember going to a Toastmasters club, I saw one of the other speakers, I thought they gave a great speech. And then at the end I said to him, like, I read this book it told me to ask a rich person out. I don't know if you're rich, but you seem really interesting. Would you have lunch with me? And he looked very panicked. He's like, what is this person saying? And he's like, maybe not lunch. Let's start with a coffee. And he said yes to a coffee. And we hung out for coffee. And he was super interesting. We had an amazing time. Then he's like, come round to my house for dinner. My wife and I would love to host you both for dinner. We made friends and it was incredible. But I was super nervous. You know, the kind of nervous of like, sweaty under the armpits and slightly like, uncomfortable. But I did it anyway and I said the words I would like to.
- [43:06]
B
Point out to the world and to remind myself that Alan actually is a human that has normal human feet feelings. You do get nervous and weird about approaching people, don't you? Like, just like a lot of us do. And normally like 99 of the time, it goes like, fine or better. Right? Like, you're all. You're pretty much always rewarded for feeling that fear and doing it anyway. And most often you go, what was I so worried about? And this was great and I'm so glad I did it.
- [43:37]
C
So that's the challenge. Ask someone out. Who are you going to ask out, Brad?
- [43:42]
A
I like that. Who am I going to ask out? Yeah, well, I mean, I guess I just kind of did that yesterday, so. My new hiking buddies. But yeah, I mean, I think it also doesn't have to be someone brand new either. Right. That you've never met before. Like, we're not talking about, like, approaching random strangers necessarily. I mean, that could work, but I have a whole bunch of friends who I probably haven't seen. My last year has been just really, really busy and, and hectic in the best way. But there are a lot of friends of mine I've lost touch with and yeah, I mean, just reach out, ask for lunch, ask for coffee, whatever. I'm actually going the next couple of days. Friend of mine named Craig, he has a cabin in West Virginia and him and his wife Katie invited us out there. So we're gonna just hang out with them for the next two or three days, which should be great. Like, haven't spent that much time together, but it's going to be. That'll be a fun adventure. And I think that'll be maybe, maybe that counts. But otherwise I'm going to reach out to. I. And I will follow back up on this. Like, I'm Going to reach out to one or two friends who I haven't seen in the last eight months and let's grab lunch. So I think that'll, that'll just be a fun exercise. So I love it. Thanks for listening to Choose a Vi and for all your support of our mission here. The absolute best way to support Choose a Pie is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards page at choose a buy.com cards. I keep this page constantly updated, so it should always be the top resource for you. Thanks for being part of our community and for your support. I wanted to ask because we were talking before about relationships and couples, money and differences and such. I know you guys have a monthly finance meeting of some sort. I don't know what exactly you call it, but sometimes I get a text from you, like, hey, we're at our monthly meeting, blah, blah, blah. You know, I think getting on the same page as your significant other on the path to PI is just so important. And I'd love to maybe just use that as a very generic launching point for like, how did you two get on the same page? Have you always been there? Is this, like, I think we've talked about this in past episodes, but even I forget. And it's like, let's even talk about that genesis point. But then maybe more so, like, the what does life look like today as far as your. After you've iterated and after you've figured this out? Like, because I think ultimately, like we were talking before, we want to cut through learning curves. So there are a whole boatload of people listening who are like, I would love to do that with my significant other. Like, what's the best practice? Like, what does life look like now as far as your money and your communication? So maybe we'll, we'll scratch what I said before about going back to the Genesis. Maybe we can, we can talk about that later, but let's talk about today. Like, what are the best practices? What are you doing? How do you communicate? Like, are there any stressors, like in your phi life? Like, are there any money stressors?
- [46:30]
C
I think the biggest thing that helps us is always come back to the mission. Always come back to the why. So you can get locked on arguments of how do we track our spending and why are you spending too much here and why are you doing this? But I always try and bring us back to why are we actually doing this? What's the huge why we're doing it? To be able to live this life or experience this and then suddenly the small details melt away because you're matched on the why. When we forget the why, we have arguments.
- [47:02]
B
A couple of times recently we were kind of tracking out how much we're going to spend in the next few months and I was like, oh, that seems really high. And that's obviously a very subjective thing to say. Like that seems like high spending. And then kind of start having a little mini freak out which does cause friction because Alan's like, I just want to do cool stuff and let's go. And then he reminds me, which again, I could and should. There's a should but do for myself of go well, what's the why? The why? The reason is we want to do cool stuff. Sometimes that costs money. It's okay to spend money and it's just that reframe from always having wanted to save and somehow play this game to keep my expenses as low as possible is like, well, now is the time to spend the money. And the phrase that helps as well is we repeat to each other, I don't want to be the richest person in the graveyard. I'm not going to take this money with me. We have no dependents or anyone that we're planning on leaving it to. Let me enjoy it. And that was the purpose. So that has and is still a friction point of me having little mini freak outs of we're spending too much. And that's just a knee jerk reaction. I'm even like doing this move, like jerky movement with my arm that you can't see going too much, spending too much.
- [48:23]
C
And I get controlled. Which, let's be honest, controlling Alan doesn't always go well. It doesn't lead to fun times.
- [48:31]
B
I think what you meant was doesn't ever go well.
- [48:35]
C
So we have to come back to the why? Why are we doing this? Why are we leading this life? And I think that really, really helps us to come up to the top level. I think the monthly finance meeting is a huge thing for us. We are coming up to have done it for 10 years now. So every single month, last day of the month, we track our net worth. What happened? Did it go up? Did it go down? Should we be worried? We track our spending. What did we spend money on? How much did we spend? And then we have a few questions of what was a good spend? Like what gave us value? What was a bad spend or what was a waste of money? Where could we spend less? Where could we spend more? And we go through all the different elements to make sure we have a Good chat about this stuff. And we make it fun. Our version of fun is breakfast burrito, nice coffee, doing it out, like, having a wonderful time. Lots of people from Rebel Finance school have ended up, like, they do it in the evening with cheese and wine. I'm a little bit concerned about them doing accounting whilst drinking, but, you know, we'll forgive that one. But do this thing so it's fun because I think it. It becomes a chore for people.
- [49:45]
B
It's my favorite time of the month. I'm like, oh, monthly finance meetings coming up.
- [49:49]
C
Make it fun. Finances can be fun. You're literally talking about your future and your money and how you do things. Like, this should be the most fun time ever.
- [49:58]
B
And that's tying it back to that. Why isn't it, rather than get. You get into the weeds and like, who spent what and where the money going, well, why are you doing that? And coming back to the why is so important.
- [50:08]
C
Exactly. And we check, like, if we keep spending like this, are we spending more than 4% of our portfolio? Are we spending 5% of our portfolio? How close are we to it? And I think it's interesting to track it on the way as well and go, like, we've saved and invested this. That means we could live off this per year. And it's growing. And you have fun with the numbers.
- [50:30]
B
And bit of gamification.
- [50:32]
A
Yeah, I like that. So, okay, I think a lot of people are looking for these in the weeds, like, answers on, like, how do these people actually do it? So what I just heard was that it's not like you have an exact amount that you spend every month. Like, you don't take, hey, here's our 4% rule. Here's the amount we get allotted per month, 1/12 of that annual amount. And we try to stick really closely to that. It sounds like you two are living your lives. And yeah, some months they're going to be extraordinary expenses. I know you've had amazing Disney trips and things like that, but you're essentially living your life and then seeing how close that comes to that 4% rule, plus or minus, and then adjusting accordingly. But I guess confirm that for me, first off, most importantly. And then second, like, do you think about it on an annual basis? Do you look at your. Okay, we have $2.6 million. We can spend a little bit more than, what, 100,000, whatever. You're denominating that in pounds or USD, like, per year. But we spent 130 this year, or we spent 80 or whatever the number is. Like, how are you adjusting? I know this is seven questions all at once, but like, I think these are the really important things. Like on, like, how do you think about this? And then how do you actually practically change if there is a change necessary?
- [51:48]
B
I guess if you go to the, the hard and fast 4% rule, if there is a rule is like, well, you know, you, you quit work, you live off 4% of your portfolio, inflation adjusted forevermore from that original time when you retired. I think I don't know anyone that does that.
- [52:06]
C
And most of the times you would end up so significantly wealthy, you've left a huge amount of money on the table and not had fun along the way. So the questions Brad asked about, like our particular system and do we do it? We are more trackers than budgeters, so we tend to look back at what we've spent and then go, how did we do? And then that affects future decisions. But the tracking is the true element that really enables us to do it because we know exactly where the money went, we know exactly what we spent it on. We also look across countries because being nomadic, coming to LA is one of the most expensive places you could possibly live. And we were looking at the daily cost of living places. One of the cheapest places we've ever stayed was Vietnam. It cost us 84 pounds a day, which is about $100 a day, to live on the beach, eat in the best restaurants and have the most amazing life. And I know that $109 a day is 40 grand a year. So if I spend more than $109 a day, I'm spending over 40 grand a year. If I spend less, I'm spending that. And we look at the figures, we see where we're going. Let me go. Maybe we shouldn't live in LA for a couple of months. Maybe we'll go to Colombia for a couple of months and save some money, which I know this is probably not that relatable to people who have a house and live where they live, but geo arbitrage is a incredible tool for reducing expenses because you can live like a king. In Thailand. We've always said if sequence of returns risk bites us, if the market crashes, well, we'll move to less cost of living countries. And that's one of our flexibility pieces.
- [53:43]
B
Yeah, and we, we kind of do a cash flow projection, for want of a better word. Oh, I feel like I've gone back to the corporate world there. A little bit of vomit just came into my mouth. We will look as our cash reserves Go down. As we're spending money each week, each month, we're like, okay, this is getting a little bit low. What have we got coming up? How much might we need to withdraw to pay for our spending that's coming up? Which is obviously very variable because, you know, as you said, Brad, you have your extraordinary expenses. But also because we are in different countries, the cost of living is different. So we're like, okay, two months in Colombia coming up. We've been there before. We know how much it costs to live there. Then it will be this. And then, you know, a few months out, it starts to get a bit more gray and woolly. So, like, I don't know where I'm going to be, but at least we do that for the next few months. And I feel like people can do that if they have a more conventional life of living in one place coming up.
- [54:37]
C
Yeah, you know how much you're going to spend every month because you've been spending it for however many times you've been living there. It's way easier to know and track that stuff. So the actual, like, specifics, like, the real specifics are every single month, we log into a Google sheet that has our net worth, and we input our net worth numbers. And then we have a digital notebook where we have the same questions every month that we answer about our income and our spending. And we go through those exact questions. And it's kind of a formulaic thing, but I've become a searcher of questions, and I like good questions. And those questions actually help us to think every month. And we have, like, a little thing that, like, Katie's got it up in front of us in our digital notebook that says net worth. Then it says we've actually got 5% as a figure because we're feeling a bit braver and we think 5% spending is probably okay, and how much that breaks down to year, month and daily spend so that I have a rough idea of what it is. Then I've got my monthly spending. How much did I actually spend?
- [55:42]
B
Which we look at the 5% figure of our current net worth. Like, strictly speaking, as I said, that.
- [55:47]
A
Was my next question.
- [55:48]
B
Katie, actually, you would do what you retired on, but we are not spending what we retired on. Not even inflation adjusted. We're spending way more than that.
- [55:56]
C
But our portfolio has grown so much that it supports it. And I think this is the flexibility bit. If you want to be 100% certain your money will never run out and you are unwilling to ever change your spending, then you should stick to 4%. If you're willing to be even remotely flexible, then you could probably increase that amount. If you're willing to think, well maybe I could earn 10 grand one year if the market goes down, maybe I would move somewhere else or reduce my spending or I'll cut out the gym for the year and I'll do press ups in the backyard. I know, whatever it is, if you're even remotely flexible, then you should think about spending in a different way. And we readjust that figure to give us a more rounded view of what we actually could spend. And if we did start spending, that we would restart the sequence of returns risk, period, I. E. It's sort of like roughly, we think about it as a five years from when you start retirement. That's the sequence of returns risk, period. And if you've written that out, your portfolio has probably grown by so much, that sequence of returns risk has become irrelevant, which is exactly what happens to us. Our portfolio has grown so much, even if it crashed by 60%, we would be back to what we had at the start. So we're kind of like it's irrelevant for us now, but if we restarted spending like 5% of what we've got today, we restart the sequence of returns risk, period. And then we go, okay, are we willing to do all these flexible things to survive that period if there is a big crash?
- [57:30]
A
Right? And that's, yeah, that's the beautiful granular detail that, that is going to be really helpful for people. Right. So using your example just very specifically, since you've been open with your numbers, like 5% of 2.6 million is 130 grand a year. And then you said you make a little bit of money from Rebel, so you can spend, I'm making this number up, but you could spend $150,000 a year or £150,000, whatever it is a year, or maybe a little bit more and be in that 5% withdrawal rate. But yet you also said embedded in there, we know at any point we could live in Vietnam for $100 a day, which is $36,000 a year, right? So like that is the beautiful thing about being open to flexibility. And also because again we've talked about people understandably are scared, right? Like there is always going to be some layer or level of fear and uncertainty. Like that's okay. That's part of being human. But I think anytime you build this flexibility in and you build options in, it helps your mind, it helps your mind for the future of. Okay, in Your cases, you are world travelers, but you're not changing every week. You're, you're going to a place for two, three, four months and you're doing that a couple times a year. But even still, within the confines of that life, yeah, Palm Springs and LA are going to be dramatically more expensive than Vietnam or Bali. It just is. Right? That's just the way it works. So maybe next year if, let's say something happened and the market took a nosedive, like maybe part of that option is all right, well, we're going to spend three months in Colombia next year, three months in Vietnam, three months in Bali and three months in Mexico. And our life is going to be like that probably alone would be cheaper than three or four months in Palm Springs. So. And you two are nodding significantly here, like, and that's just but an option and it doesn't mean you have to, frankly. Also, that's another thing we know about withdrawals and such is it takes an extended period of the proverbial, you know what hitting the fan for it to go really wrong. So if you had Palm Springs or some other very, you know, Aspen or going back to London planned on your calendar for three or four months for 2026, and we have some downturn between now and then, you can still do it. You don't need to upend your plans. It's an extended period of things going bad. I would think for most of us that then and only then would our plans be totally changed to some degree. And of course, we're speaking generalities here. Right. You know, the real big Aaron, if he's listening to this, is probably shaking his fist at me right now. But nevertheless, like this is how real people think, you know, and I think it's important to know that flexibility is important. You don't have to change wholesale on a dime just because the market went down 5% or even 10 or 15%. But having those options I think makes your life easier mentally is 100%.
- [60:26]
C
The big crashes, which if you think about how many there have been, we're talking 2001 with the dot com bubble. We're talking 08 and there's not really been a big one since. We're not talking the little ones, we're talking the big ones. And actually the key is the dual forces of high inflation and a stock market crash away. You get in trouble if you don't have those two things happen for an extended period of time. Like the 4 or 5% like works perfectly and you don't even need to Consider it. So if you have a small 20% correction, it's not going to cause you a big issue. But talking about fear, Brad, I really wanted to ask you this. We had a comment in one of our Facebook groups from the New Zealand group actually Shout out to the Kiwis.
- [61:12]
A
Yeah, they're great.
- [61:13]
C
They are fabulous. They said, I find myself really concerned about global instability and the likelihood of an impending collapse of the economic system. I've done volatility training, which was the new thing we did on Rebel finance school to try and prepare people for the media. Panicking them like the media will scare you, but still some of the rhetoric is really compelling, especially when considering the stable peace we've had since World War II and some of the unprecedented factors signaling that something terrible is imminent. How are others responding to this? How do you think about this, Brad? What would you say to people, Is this a real fear? Is this something that keeps you up at night?
- [61:56]
A
Well, that's a, that's a tough one. It is not something that keeps me up at night at all. This is not to minimize that. There are things going on in the world. Right? Let's be entirely clear. There are, but frankly there always are. And I think this is something that I know Morgan Housel has talked about, I've heard on his podcast, and it's, look at the stock market returns over the last hundred years. And it's just up and to the right now. Does that mean when zoomed in that it's always up and to the right? No, of course not. Think about how many crazy things from the Great Depression to World War II to everything, you know, more recent, the great financial crisis, the dot com bust, this housing market, and this is just in the US or many of those things. Right. And yet they are but a blip on that scale. Now, can I tell you definitively that there's not going to be a zombie apocalypse tomorrow or AI isn't going to take over? No, of course I can't like, but I think looking at history, this is why people study history. It's. You get a sense for the scale of these things have happened before. It might not be the exact thing, but these things have happened before. And humans in general are pretty robust. We find a way. There's an ingenuity that helps us overcome things. It's funny because I didn't always consider myself like an eternal optimist. I think maybe I had that like Uber, you know, or pseudo intellectual, like pessimism maybe at some point in my life. But I'm pretty optimistic now and I think it's just a better outlook on life. I don't think sitting around watching the news every day. And this comes from a former news junkie, let's be clear. But like I don't think sitting around watching the news every day does anything positive for you. I think it only puts fear into you constantly. And when you look outside, like this is my like look outside test. I look outside and the world is pretty darn good and everyone's going about their business, enjoying their lives and yeah, again, does that minimize. Am I, am I a total fool? And to say that there aren't crazy things going on in the world. No, of course not. Okay. But on a day to day basis, life is pretty darn good. And I think anytime you try to prognosticate on there's an imminent collapse. Like the wording in here, right? Imminent. Like who the heck are you to say it's imminent? Like, I think there have been people who have been prognosticating an imminent collapse or less. Well, forever frankly. But for the last 10 years, certainly that I've seen in my investing life. And most of those people have been wrong again and again and again and again and again. And if they sat on the sidelines, you two are the perfect example. Right. If you thought in 2019 there was an imminent collapse coming, you would have taken your million and you would have squirreled it away somewhere and it probably would be worth about a million right now. Maybe less if you had, if you had pulled out of it. Yeah, if you had spent out of it then for sure, less, a hundred percent. But Instead you've lived six really great years and you have 2.6 now. So I think anytime it's, it's like stock market timing. I think this is really akin to that. Anytime we try to get our brains involved in I know better. Because that's ultimately what you're saying, I know better. I know better both when I'm going to sell and when I'm going to buy. And the fact of the matter is the likelihood that you're going to know better than everybody else twice, not less once. The chance of you knowing better than the entire world once is almost zero. Twice is infinitesimal. So I just think, just from a strategic standpoint, I think it's a bad bet. I just think it's a bad bet to look at this and say I know better, it's imminent, I'm running for the hills. So. Well, that's my reflexive four minute answer. But I Don't know. Where do you guys come down on this?
- [65:44]
B
I think for me it comes to what's the alternative? And I think often a lot of these posts are actually looking for reassurance. They're like, well, I get it about index investing, I get about investing for the long term, but what about this? Like, it's back to that fear again, isn't it? Of. Can you just reassure me that. That I'm doing the right thing? And that's why I feel from this post.
- [66:08]
C
Yeah. And they ask how are others responding to this? And I'm going, well, I'm not responding. Like, I wouldn't respond. I have a globally diversified simple index fund portfolio. I invest in one simple global index fund. I'm invested in across the world. I'm diversified as you possibly can be. What am I going to do? I don't believe I can time the market, Brad. I know I am not smart enough to be able to time the market. I've realized as an investor I am not good enough because I will make dumb decisions.
- [66:41]
B
Well, that's implying that there are people that can time the market and there aren't. It's like you're saying, well, I'm not clever enough, but there are.
- [66:48]
C
But I think people have actually convinced themselves they are clever enough. There are people out there who've convinced themselves and some of them are the TV celebrities you will see that have predicted it once. Right. And they got it right once. Which law of averages says if you keep predicting every six months, eventually after many years of doing it, you might get it right once. And then you can shout to the world, I was the one who foresaw this thing.
- [67:15]
B
Yeah.
- [67:16]
C
And that's what every one of those people does. And then they convince themselves and everyone else that they are the oracle. They are the person who has the crystal ball that can see the future and we should listen to them. And that in a lot of ways. The guy who predicted the Big Short. Not predicted the Big Short.
- [67:33]
A
Michael Burry. Is that the.
- [67:35]
C
Yeah, Michael Burry. He was one of the characters in the Big Short, the movie. He kind of foresaw some of the stuff that was happening with the Great Crash, the economic crash, the 08 crash. And he's been predicting a crash ever since. And he's got it wrong so many times. But he predicted it once. And who knows, he'll probably predict it right again once in the future. But you just can't predict this stuff. So how am I responding to this? I am responding by having a nice life Enjoying my friends, because I can't do anything about that. I literally cannot do anything about an impending economic collapse. If it happens, what can I prepare? I'm just going to enjoy my friends, enjoy my life, add value to the world, and do everything I can to have an amazing life and enjoy it. So how am I responding? I'm responding by having more fun and more time with friends and enjoying life.
- [68:29]
A
Wow, that's a mic drop moment there, Alan. I think I love it. I love it. And I think that is the way to respond. And again, we're not sticking our heads in the sand. We understand that there are always bad things going on in the world. And it's not to minimize things in the past. It's certainly not to minimize things that are going on now. But yeah, if you're living crippled with fear and anxiety over something you have no control over and you frankly don't know what the future is going to bring, it's just a bad bet. I think that that's like, that's how I look at life. It's like, it's just bad strategy. It doesn't make sense. It's not going to lead. If you ask me, is this going to lead me to a higher or lower likelihood of having a successful life, the answer is unquestionably a lower likelihood, smaller likelihood, right? Like, it just is. That is a bad strategy. Like, by its very definition, I think optimism versus pessimism, right? Like, optimism is a better strategy than pessimism. I think walking around the world with being nice to people or being not so nice or even blah at best. Like, I think about this, like, in terms of, like, even just something simple. Like when I make phone calls to customer service representatives, like, I'm not being fake, but I'm just trying to be the nicest person they talk to that day. And I find that over a hundred of those calls, I suspect very strongly I'm going to get better results than virtually anybody else. And I'm not. I'm not being fake. There's no Machiavellian thing. I'm not trying to get extract anything from anybody. I'm just being a normal human because I understand their lives are hard and they're dealing with jerks all day. Like, what's my best strategy? To be the next jerk or to be the nice person? It's obvious. Like, we know how to live, we just don't do it. And this is what. It's maddening to me. It's like, you understand the best strategy to live, like, even if you want to think Machiavellian, like, just in terms of pure strategy, like there's a way to have a better life and there's a way to have a worse life, why on earth would you not pick the better way? It makes no sense.
- [70:26]
B
I feel like we need to poke Brad and give him some more. Like he's in rant mode. Give him something else. No, I love it.
- [70:35]
A
I love it.
- [70:35]
B
Seeing Brad getting passionate, because it is true.
- [70:37]
C
It is so true. If you're just nice to people, they're nice to you. And even if you do it just so that people are nicer to you, the world is a better place. But you don't even do that. Just do it because you're nice to them and you will improve the world just by smiling at people, being nice to people. Do you know how many people, like, if you just went and bought a coffee, do you know how many people slow down and gain eye contact with the person serving them coffee? Watch it. Next time you're in line, Next time you're there, watch it. Guarantee you people are reading the board, they're looking at their phones. They don't even slow down just to gain eye contact and say, hi, how are you? And when you do it is amazing the impact it creates, it freaks them out.
- [71:20]
B
Why is this person looking at me?
- [71:22]
C
Why have they stopped to look at me? What's going on? Why are they talking to me? I just thought I'd say hello, good morning, how are you? And say, hello. And it is incredible, but it just, it happens less in a busy society nowadays. And I love your idea, Brad, of strategies that you can apply that make your life better. Like, why would you not do this? And if you looked at all the strategies for investing, like, I could take my money out and leave it in cash. I could invest in gold. I could pick an actively managed fund. That one alone makes me want to vomit. I could get a wealth manager to manage my money and pay them 3% of the thing because I'm scared to do it myself. Like, I have all these strategies. Or I could just invest in one simple, broad based index fund and allow it to grow on average 10, 12% a year over the long term. Like, just pick the one simple strategy that makes your life better, makes you wealthier and helps you to sleep at night.
- [72:18]
A
Yeah, agreed. And then I think strategy is exactly how I look at that too. It's like, what is the strategy that's going to give me the highest likelihood of maximizing my net worth over 50 years? And I have yet to find essentially one human being who can beat the market. Net of fees over 50 years. I think it's almost impossible. I think it's essentially a zero percent chance. So therefore why would I not just buy the market? Why would I not just buy a broad based index fund? It doesn't, it doesn't make any sense because I'm thinking in terms of 50 years. So that has to be my strategy. It has to be because I can't beat the market over 50 years. The person at the Edward Jones or the Goldman Sachs wherever in New York City or down the street, they can't beat the market and they charge you fees to do it, like to get suboptimal performance or even matching performance and they charge you fees. So therefore net of fees, it's worse. And then compounded over 50 years, it's catastrophic. Right? So like just purely strategy and not to mention this is the easiest way. Just matching the market is the absolute easiest way. So it's like again, layer upon layer upon layer. That's the best strategy that I can come up with and that's why that helps me sleep really, really well at night is just buying broad based index funds. I think it passes every single test I have of sleep well at night and the strategy perspective. So yeah, that's a beautiful example, Alan.
- [73:39]
C
Which someone sent us a video the other day with a link saying like I'm worried about this. And the video was called Huge problem looming Index fund bubble in 2025. And you know, there's all these videos out there that like sell the doom and gloom to get you to watch them. That's what they do. I'd be interested in your opinion, Brad, about this whole we're in an index fund bubble. Everyone's becoming passive. The money flowing into index funds is huge and it's warping the price discovery of stocks and shares. Should we actually be worried about an index fund bubble?
- [74:19]
A
I mean, I'm not worried about that. That's not something that I've even given two seconds of thought to. I think, should anybody be worried, is there anything you can do about that? Is that even valid? I'm looking at this in our doc and it's funny, we've talked for almost an hour and a half and we've, we've come out on maybe two of the things in our document, which is awesome. That's what I love about these conversations. But I'm looking at this YouTube video and it's like this very scary looking man, it's huge. Problem, like it's just, it's fear mongering. It's all fear mongering. But that all said, right? Like I understand people who have, who have issues with the concentration amongst seven or ten companies when you buy an index fund. I get that on some level. But is it something that I'm really worried about? I'm not because I've listened to J.L. collins for the better part of a decade and I understand how self cleansing index funds are and the winners ride and the losers fall out, fall off, whatever, and new winners come and take their place and we don't know what those winners are going to be one year from now in that last five, 10, 15, 50 years from now. So I like the mechanism of it, of an index fund. I love the mechanism of it. I think it's brilliant. And, and I wasn't, I wasn't well versed enough on that until I listened to J.L. collins. And I think everybody should listen. He's been on the podcast here on Choose a VI a handful of times. You can just Google JL Collins. Choose a VI going way back to 2017 and the amount of, of course the Simple Path to Wealth is a wonderful way to learn everything in a, in a nice concise way. But his voice is so amazing, guys. Like he should, you know, we, we know how great he is to listen to. So like that helped me understand better just the function of one of these index funds. So again, I think we can be intellectually honest enough to say, do I love that 30 plus percent is in companies like Nvidia and certainly Tesla and companies like that? Yeah, there's some little aspect of me, it's like, that's a little much. But who the heck am I to say? Maybe that's a historical accuracy. Maybe it's under. We do these things in a vacuum without doing any research. Again, like it's how you think is what's important. Like I know that my mind goes to fear. Even my mind goes to fear and even what I just talked through in the last minute, but then it immediately goes to oh, but I should actually look into this, right? Like, what if this is not a historical anomaly at all? What if this is underrepresentative? I don't think it is. But what if it is? Then okay, all my fears were just allayed. It's gone. Like that was ridiculous. So yeah, I mean, I guess the real succinct answer is like, I'm not worried about this. One of you two said this before. Like, but what's the other option. What's the other option? To buy individual companies. To get some brilliant actively managed company or person to basically take 1% or more of your of your assets every year. Like that's not a good strategy. Like until somebody presents me with a better strategy, I'm 0% concerned about this.
- [77:15]
C
I love that. And actually I watch the video so this kind of thing gets shared with us to say Donegan, should I be worried about this? And they share this stuff with us. And I watched the entire video, I downloaded the transcript, I read through it and exactly what it was was 80% fear and lies and 20% of a few moments of truth in there to keep it like sales. Then really interesting. Right at the end. It's a 12 minute video. 10 minutes in he goes and obviously dumb investors put all their money into index funds and the smart people have learned how to evaluate stocks and shares and pick them. And then he has his pitch for his three day course to teach you.
- [77:59]
A
Exactly how to invest.
- [78:02]
C
And it's all about this whole, you can pick, you can look at the price to earnings ratio, you can pick the good value companies, you can pick the winners and that's what the smart people do. And let me teach you how to do it. And it's really interesting. If you actually just watch some of these fear based videos and then get to the end without actually like getting caught up in the fear, you will see they are just selling you stuff. That's what they do.
- [78:29]
B
What people do to us a lot with running Rebel Finance school is they'll see an article headline and they'll just send us the headline or send us the article and be like should we be worried about this? Whereas if you slowly just read through or slowly watch the video, you're able to see through it. But I think there's, we're so fractured with our attention, aren't we that you see this, you're scared, you're like, oh, let me, let me ask for reassurance. We see that time and again, don't we? And it's interesting, like slowing down and watching it for the first. In the first place.
- [79:01]
C
Do you believe that we could use the PE ratio, the Shiller ratio, the price to earnings ratio to be able to predict which stocks to buy and when to get in and out of the market, such as the value investors tell us that we can. Brad.
- [79:17]
A
Do I believe I can? I don't think I can. Well, it's easy to give a flippant answer, right? I think there are people who are successful at picking individual stocks. So I don't want to be totally flippant and say it's impossible, right? Like, we have friends and. And we'll never know how much of it is skill, how much of it is luck. Survivorship bias, right? Like, it's easy to look at, even. And this is silly, but, like, even Warren Buffett, right? Like, if Warren Buffett played 100 lifetimes, how many of them is he successful? It could be 100, it could be five. I have no idea. Like, even the great Warren Buffett, like, I don't know how replicable it is. So, like, I look at how can I replicate this? Or can I do this? Or can we are happening to be talking to probably a couple hundred thousand people, right? Like, can everybody listening to this somehow miraculously study stocks and pick the winners with any degree of certainty? Like, I don't think so. I really don't. So I think it's a bad strategy. But again, like, we have friends who are successful, right? Brian Feroldi has been on the show many times. David Gardner, the founder of the Motley fool, is somebody who I've known over the years. Like, these are people who have been really successful with individual stocks, and they do this analysis. Like, again, do I think that's replicable for a regular person? Do I think it's replicable for me? I really. I really don't. And I don't think it's a matter of smarts. I don't think it's a matter of time. I. I think just like, in any aspect of life, there's some degree of. Of luck. Anybody who doesn't say there's luck and success is a fool. I think that's just the fact of the matter is you can be prepared, you can be smart, you can be hardworking. Luck matters. And I think anybody who tells you otherwise is a complete idiot, frankly. So that's just. That is a universal truth of life. So do I look at the PE ratios? Do I think, like, because the ratios are significantly high, like, am I taking all my money off the table? I'm not. I'm really not. I'm not even thinking about it. Do I look at fundamentals of some companies? Like, would I personally and I, you know, jokingly, we talked about Tesla last time. Like, would I buy Tesla today based on the fundamentals? Like, just my, like, rudimentary analysis of it? Not a snowball's chance in hell, zero percent chance. But that's me. And that's. And maybe there's other biases built in there, but I just wouldn't. But I'm also not making that decision. Like I wasn't going to buy Tesla or going to buy any other individual stock. I'm buying an index fund. That's what I do. And I understand, of course, for everybody yelling at me is, yes, I understand because of the way that Tesla is a very large company. It makes up a couple of percentage points of every dollar that I put into an index fund. And I'm okay with that. It's been a massive success. It has this meme stock ability to keep on growing regardless of what, how many cars they sell or whatever other nonsense that goes on behind the scenes. And okay, that's fine. And if it does poorly at some point, then some other company is going to come take its place and I'm going to own that too. And that's the beautiful part of an index fund.
- [82:11]
C
I absolutely love that. And we feel exactly the same. I just wanted to ask you because sometimes when you're answering all these questions and you're helping people with their finances, you come to it and you go, can you really do this? Can we really do that?
- [82:26]
B
Is it really possible?
- [82:27]
C
Have I missed something? And I think that's one of the signs of someone who's thoughtful is, have I missed something? Let me get other opinions, let me ask other people. Let me learn from this stuff. I do not believe that I have either the interest or the ability to pick stocks. And maybe if I spent the next 10 years reading company statements and studying the market, I could get into it. But am I willing to invest my time, energy in doing that? No. I want to enjoy my life with my friends and I want to have my time to do cool stuff, and I don't want to spend my time doing that. I invest in index funds so I can have my time.
- [83:08]
B
Are you saying then that if people do want to and they spend 10, 15 years studying this stuff and they should, do you think they can beat overall index fund?
- [83:17]
C
The stats would say no, because even the professionals who are actively managers who are paid to do this, who've done it for 20, 30 years, can't do it. There are a few outliers out there which everyone comes back to and goes, well, that person can do it, therefore it's possible. And like, there is a little bit of that that does exist. There are a few people that have done it and they have this whole value investing system that they've talked about. But is it replicable? Can people do it? I don't think so. Like, we've got 200,000 people on here listening to the podcast and would you go to them? Okay, like, go do it. I think you could be successful. I would say stay clear because I want to help as many people be successful as possible. I would say, like, your chances of being successful at that are tiny. If 200,000 people went out and tried it, maybe 10 of them would be successful. Is that a replicable strategy? No. If 200,000 people listening to this put all their money in an index fund, 200,000 of them would be successful over the long term. That is a replicable strategy that everyone could do and I can do. I don't even need to know how it works. It's like the light switch. I don't really understand electricity, Brad, but I love it. I can press the light switch and every time the light comes on, I can do that. I can invest in an index fund, in a tax advantaged account and I can become wealthy and I don't even really need to understand it.
- [84:44]
A
Yeah, I love it. And I think really to close out the episode, I'll come back to something you said before, which is always come back to the why. And I think that's what you just alluded to there is, yeah, you could do all this, you could study and there's a tiny little chance that you're going to outperform, but you want to go live your life and you too are doing that and it's beautiful to see. So. All right, well, I think we're going to do another one of these very, very soon since like I said, we had this big long Google Doc and we touched on but a few of them. So that's great. That's what's fun about these conversations is you never know where they're going to go. This was a blast. So if anybody's looking to get in touch with you. I know. So rebel Finance school. You do, but I know it. You just ended in 2025. But can people always sign up and get the lessons?
- [85:29]
B
Yes. We leave it up and it becomes a self paced thing so they can still sign up for the course and get access to all the videos and the materials.
- [85:37]
C
And we're actually turning into a self paced thing where you'll get a video a week, you'll get an email a week that guides you through the whole subject and you learn all about investing and index investing and we're giving that all away. So it will be available for anyone to take and anyone to get on top of. And the listeners of Choose Fi, you've probably nailed this, but you might have a family member that doesn't know anything that you want to get on the journey to doing it.
- [86:03]
B
And it starts right at the beginning of tracking where your money's going, knowing how much you already have, how to get out of debt, how to get your mindset straight, what are the beliefs that might be holding you back. And then we get on to investing and building for the future.
- [86:17]
C
Yeah. So just type Rebel Finance School into your favorite search engine, whichever that might be, and you should be able to find us, the Donegans.
- [86:25]
A
Beautiful. All right, Allan and Katie, my friends, thanks. This is fun. And like I said, we're going to do another one real soon.
- [86:31]
C
It lights me up chatting to you, Brad, and thank you for like answering the questions, helping people and giving your time to make the community a stronger place. We really appreciate you.
- [86:41]
A
Thank you, my friend. I appreciate it. All right, to everybody listening, always come back to the why. Right? That's what we're doing here. We're trying to make the best choices that we can make to live the best life we can, however you define that. And I think it takes intentionality. This is not something that just happens overnight. You have to think about it. You have to iterate and you have to work on it. But go out there and have fun and come back to that why, whatever that means to you. All right, thanks for being part of the choose if I community and listening to podcasts. Until next time, thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the choose if I community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first, subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player, just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choosefi.com subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there and I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply, reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox. So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a vi local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a vi.com local and you'll find a list of all of Those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with FI, or you have a family member or a friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways choose a Fi episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the Fi community. And even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up. And it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life? And then choose If I created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free, just head to choosefi.comfi101 and again, thanks for listening.