Beyond Numbers at the Bali Retreat | Ep 524

Summary

ChooseFI Podcast Episode Summary: "Beyond Numbers at the Bali Retreat | Ep 524"

Release Date: December 9, 2024

In Episode 524 of the ChooseFI podcast, hosts Brad and Mark Troutman delve into the transformative experiences of Financial Independence (FI) community members at the Five Freedom Retreat in Bali, Indonesia. This episode, titled "Beyond Numbers at the Bali Retreat," explores the profound impact of immersive FI events on personal growth, community building, and life design beyond mere financial metrics.

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1. Setting the Scene: The Five Freedom Retreat in Bali

Brad opens the episode from Bali, highlighting the significance of the Five Freedom Retreat, an annual gathering that fosters deep connections among FI enthusiasts.

Brad [00:00]:
"How are people able to take time out of their lives to devote to this community... what does that look like? Why is it so important that they would take their finite vacation time, time away from family, time away from friends, and a not insignificant amount of resources to come to Bali for five plus days..."

Mark Troutman [02:48]:
"Initially, it was more of the numbers—how does this all work? What's a 4% rule?"

The hosts emphasize that while financial strategies are foundational, the retreat's true value lies in fostering a supportive community that transcends financial discussions.

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2. The Essence of Community in FI Events

Mark Troutman [03:32]:
"What attracts me to keep coming back to these events is the community itself and the discussions we have... it's really about designing your best life, living a life of balance..."

Brad [05:04]:
"There’s significant personal growth... we have at least a dozen people from Australia here... it just transcends everything."

The conversation underscores the retreat as a catalyst for personal development and meaningful connections, highlighting stories of members like Keith and Samantha who have embarked on world travels inspired by their interactions at previous events.

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3. Spotlight on Guests: Transformative Journeys

A. Viji Evers: Embracing the FI Community for the First Time

Viji Evers [10:52]:
"It has been about discovering what is important to me and asking all those deep questions and then designing, like you said, or creating what I want to be."

Mark Troutman [12:19]:
"Is this your first FI event?"

Viji Evers [13:00]:
"It has been completely different. It’s a lot more about inner work, discovery, and more than finances."

Viji shares her initial reservations and how the welcoming environment and focus on personal values at the retreat exceeded her expectations, transforming her perception of FI from mere numbers to a holistic life design.

B. Sean: Navigating a Sabbatical Through FI Principles

Sean [16:56]:
"I attended the Chautauqua in 2022 and really spoke to people there. That’s when I made the decision to finally take a sabbatical..."

Mark Troutman [18:46]:
"Are you finding it working out for you, and would you recommend it?"

Sean [19:46]:
"It’s been an opportunity to slow down and actually, like, get to know the culture... travel slowly for the first time ever."

Sean discusses his company's generous sabbatical policy and how attending FI events inspired him to take an unpaid sabbatical. Despite initial setbacks, such as an accident and staffing changes, the experience provided him with a renewed perspective on life and work, alleviating burnout.

C. Christine Whealey: Overcoming Business Challenges with Community Support

Christine Whealey [27:23]:
"I walked away knowing that there is a lot of hope... there is a path forward, and it doesn’t look as scary or as hard as it felt to me yesterday."

Mark Troutman [30:31]:
"Is this your experience with the community coming together?"

Christine Whealey [34:44]:
"Last night I got to sit in a room with people who are far smarter than I am... they could take a look at my situation from an outside view."

Christine recounts the emotional and operational challenges she faced while attempting to take an extended trip from her business. Through the support and innovative ideas generated at the retreat, she found actionable solutions to restructure her business, emphasizing the power of community in overcoming personal and professional hurdles.

D. Susannah: A Physician’s Leap to FI and Life Redefinition

Susannah [37:19]:
"I am officially fired [from her job]. The event in April solidified the decision to leave my job."

Brad [39:08]:
"Was there ever a sense of obligation?"

Susannah [43:48]:
"I hit FI 10 years ago, so anything after that was actually gravy on top... making sure that I was comfortable never really factored in because I already had that comfort."

Susannah, a nephrologist, shares her profound journey from contemplating leaving her high-stress medical career to making the decisive leap into FI. She discusses the psychological barriers, such as identity and obligation, and offers insights on transitioning through options like locum tenens work. Despite initial struggles with adjusting to no longer being tethered to her profession, Susannah finds excitement in pursuing personal interests and community connections fostered at the retreat.

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4. Reflections and Takeaways

Brad [49:19]:
"I'm now planning on coming to many more of these events... they're not redundant at all... it's really special."

Mark Troutman [49:55]:
"These events change the course of your life. Thank you all for being here."

In the concluding segments, Brad and Mark reflect on the transformative power of FI events. Brad emphasizes the unparalleled connections and personal growth that occur, reinforcing the value of attending such gatherings. Mark echoes the sentiment, expressing anticipation for the continued impact on the community members' lives.

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5. Episode Conclusion and Community Engagement

Brad wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with the ChooseFI community through subscribing to the podcast and newsletter, joining local groups, and accessing free FI resources. He highlights the supportive and proactive nature of the community, reinforcing the message that FI is as much about life design and meaningful connections as it is about financial freedom.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mark Troutman [03:42]:
  "It's really this community involvement at all of these events that I find is really what brings me back to each and every one."

• Brad [05:04]:
  "Money does not make you happy. It obviously makes life easier, right? That's why we're all doing this."

• Viji Evers [11:57]:
  "I literally feel like this is the best community. I feel like I belong even within the two days I've been here."

• Sean [22:40]:
  "It's really been an opportunity to slow down and actually, like, get to know the culture."

• Christine Whealey [27:23]:
  "It gave me perspective and ideas on how I could fix this or my ways kind of out."

• Susannah [43:48]:
  "Making sure that I was comfortable never really factored in because I already had that comfort."

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Conclusion:

Episode 524 of ChooseFI vividly illustrates that Financial Independence extends beyond financial calculations, delving deep into personal fulfillment, community support, and intentional living. Through heartfelt testimonials and insightful discussions, Brad and Mark showcase how FI events like the Five Freedom Retreat can be life-altering, offering attendees not just financial strategies but a thriving network of like-minded individuals dedicated to living their best lives.

For those intrigued by the stories shared in this episode, attending a ChooseFI event could be the first step toward a transformative journey towards financial and personal freedom.

Transcript

[Brad]

Hello and welcome to Choose a Five. Today on the show we have a special treat. I'm coming to you live from Bali, Indonesia, and I'm sitting here at the 5 Freedom Retreat, the second annual version of this, with 53 of my closest friends. And I am joined by Mark Troutman, who is the host of Mark's Money Mind podcast and a cfp and just an all around wonderful guy. He's knowledgeable, he's an absolute pillar of the FI community and he has been to over 16 of these live events and he can bring a really unique perspective, I think, on why one keeps coming back and what can be gleaned from this. And I think what we're going to do here today is Mark and I are going to talk, but more importantly going to bring members from the community in to talk about how they made their way to Bali. And I don't just mean with travel rewards, though in fairness, I got a Singapore Suites business class and Qatar Airways Qsuites. So I've got some stories. But more importantly, it's how are people able to take time out of their lives to devote to this community and what does that look like? Why is it so important that they would take their finite vacation time, time away from family, time away from friends, and a not insignificant amount of resources to come to Bali for five plus days to have an immersive event with, in many cases, people they simply do not know? We take this as a normal thing in our community, but this is extraordinary and I think when you're on the ground at an event like this, you realize just how amazing it is and just how life changing it can be. And we're going to talk today to some people who. Okay, hey, if you're listening to this, maybe a FI event isn't in your near future, but maybe you're thinking about how do I negotiate a sabbatical. We're going to talk about that. Maybe you own a business and you're looking to potentially figure out a way to make it more efficient, make it so that you're not the constraint. We're going to talk with someone who recently made the leap to FI and I think a little smattering of, hey, why would you come out to your first time FI event? And like I mentioned with Mark, why do you keep coming back? So I think there's going to be a little bit for everybody in this episode. And with that, welcome to choose fi. Mark, my friend, thanks for being here.

[Mark Troutman]

Great to be here. Glad you came this year.

[Brad]

Yeah, this is my first one. So this is only the second major FI event that I've been to. So I've been to a couple of campfires, and that might be unfair to not call camp fires major, but I think of especially for people from the U.S. the big international trips. So I went to one Chautauqua in Greece in 2018, and now I'm here in Bali at the Five Freedom Retreat. And I know this is something that has become a big part of your life. So not only this event, you went to the first one, but campfires. And we've met at economy, so I think I might have miscounted before. At 16, you're at at least 17. It could be 25, at least.

[Mark Troutman]

I would say it's in the 20s, for sure.

[Brad]

But why do you keep coming back? What does the community mean to you, and what do these events mean to you, and what do you get from that?

[Mark Troutman]

Well, initially, the first time I think I went, it was more of the reason many of us go to our first event. And it's, how does this all work? What's a 4% rule? You think it's all about the numbers and so forth. And then what you realize is that that's kind of the easy part. And what I find attracts me to keep coming back to these events is the community itself and the discussions we have. I have definitely talked to some people about finances here, but it's more about designing your best life, living a life of balance, maybe slowing down the speed towards financial independence and enjoying the ride, or potentially taking a sabbatical or traveling the world. I'm looking at Keith here. The last time we were here 13 months ago was the beginning of his world travel, and he's still doing it. I mean, it's incredible. And people that I met last year, I'm thinking of Samantha, for example. She was so hesitant to come to this event, and now she's traveling the world and being so comfortable. And even like today, Christine Wheatley was out on a scooter with us in Ubud. So, I mean, everyone expands to such a degree beyond the finances. And it's really this community involvement at all of these events that I find is really what brings me back to each and every one.

[Brad]

Yeah, I think there's significant personal growth, and I think it's also, frankly, what we're all craving in our real lives, which is connection. Right. I think a lot of us in the FI community, even today, even with all the choose a fi local groups and other meetups that happen all across the world, Many of us feel like these little islands unto ourselves. And I think it's wonderful to find your tribe, to find your people. And I think that's what's so cool about an event like this is it just transcends everything. I mean, at this event, Amy Minkley, who puts this on, who has been on the show twice, actually. She was on episode 440 and episode 467, where we talked about multiple of these types of events. She's gone to great efforts to make this an international event. And I know just from talking and meeting with people, we have at least a dozen people from Australia here, which is just really neat. And I've met people who I, frankly, would have never had an opportunity to meet ever in my entire life. And what's so cool about an event like this is, like I said a minute ago, it just. It transcends everything. And to Mark's point, we're not sitting here talking about the nuts and bolts of money. I think, frankly, none of us would have traveled 10,000 plus miles to just sit here and talk money. Because, frankly, like as I say on the podcast all the time, the money's really the easy part. It's but 5% of this journey. It's a really important part, right? So let's be clear. You need to get your money right. And at the beginning of your fi. Journey, that is what you should be spending time on. But, man, once you automate things and once you simplify, it's about truly about the journey. It's about what do you want your life to look like. It's about who do you want to spend time with? How can you design, as the Donegans say, how can you design an extraordinary life? And I think if we're all honest with ourselves, we don't just want a number on a spreadsheet. I can promise you, and I can tell you from personal experience, that does not make you happy. So if that is somewhere in the recesses of your mind, I'm here to dispel that myth. Money does not make you happy. It obviously makes life easier, Right? Let's be clear. That's why we're all doing this. We're doing this to establish financial security and freedom to get us to the point where we can come on amazing adventures like this, right? So for anybody out there who's listening, who maybe you haven't even contemplated coming on an adventure like this, okay, you can start small. Stephen Boyer has campfires all across the U.S. at last count, I think there are at least nine of them. And that's a great intro. It's lower cost. It's just a couple nights because of the geographic areas. It's only a couple hour drive for most people. And I think it's really important. And, Mark, I'd love to dive in on specifically what you get out of it, because I know in talking to you, your life has radically transformed in the 12 or 13 months since you've been in Bali the first time because you came to the inaugural event. So I'd love to hear very concretely, that's what people really want to know. It's easy for us to give platitudes, and I think we don't think of them as platitudes because these events are amazing. I could repeat it over and over again. They're amazing. They're amazing. But at the end of the day, Mark, you have come to at least 20 events. Why? What does it actually specifically do in your life?

[Mark Troutman]

Yeah. So I would say that at the beginning it was, do I have enough? Is everything fine? And I've been retired now for nine years. Like you said, the money is the easy part. Everything is automated this point. So for me, it's more of like, how do I design my best life? How do I live a life of balance? How do I enjoy that with the community I love? And when I came here last year, we were diving deep into creating your best life. I have been traveling around the world with friends. I realized we went through exercises of what's most important to you, and I realized that community was the number one thing that was most important to me. I live in a small ski town. I have acquaintances that live there. But my true friends are about four hours away in Colorado. I just sold my house and I'm moving to that community to be with these people. That's what evolved from last year's event to this year's event is a major move, Life change and integration with this community that I love.

[Brad]

That's incredible, Mark. That's absolutely incredible. I mean, that's the dream of a lot of ours, is to get this in real life much more frequently. And it's just amazing that you, I mean, literally picked up your life and made a move like that. It's easy to say, and it's a lot harder to do.

[Mark Troutman]

Well, when you're financially independent, it's not too hard to do.

[Brad]

Touche. Touche. That's a great point. And I think, well, obviously that's. That's an incredible example. I think a lot of people, again, they're looking for that small thing, right? That little. What's that little spark that I'm going to get out of this? And I think what's cool about a community like this and I'm going to throw it open here is we have 52 other people who are sitting out in the audience. Undoubtedly there's someone who's here at a FI event for their very first FI event. And I'd love for Brave Soul to come up and join us up here if you're interested. Woo. All right. So, bg, I would love for you to introduce yourself to the community and just tell us a little bit about why you made your first event generally and why you made your first event this one.

[Viji Evers]

Hi, I'm Viji Evers. I am here from Louisville, Kentucky. Why did I come all the way here and why is that important to me? Well, I will credit my friend Eric. He's also our neighbor. And he said, you know, there's this whole world out there of financial freedom that you should come in and explore. And we knew nothing about it. My husband and I, we knew nothing about it. So we're like, okay, we're going to take the leap of faith to come in and discover what is this thing. So that's why we came here. And I'm incredibly impressed and honored to be here because I came here, like you mentioned, Mark, that it's all about numbers. But it's so much more than that to me. It has been about discovering what is important to me and asking all those deep questions and then designing, like you said, or creating what I want to be. So, I mean, it's been an incredible journey and I hope to come back here 24 times or whatever your number is.

[Mark Troutman]

So is this your first five ent? It is, it is. Okay. And so what is your impression so far with just the community? And I'm just very curious as to. I love to hear first timers and their impression of this not cult. It is a club is what we've decided. We've decided it is now a club and not a cult.

[Viji Evers]

I mean, it's just been so welcoming. That was the first thing, like my very first session here. I was sitting with, I mean, what, three or four strangers? And today is day three and I'm sitting here with 53, 54 friends. I totally felt super welcome and like, I'm getting pointers to, hey, you need to go talk to this person. And then I go, just say, hey, I want to talk to you. And people make time. So I did have some Reservations coming in as to, okay, I know Eric, and that's about it. But I literally feel like this is the best community. I feel like I belong even within the two days I've been here. So thank you.

[Brad]

Yeah. That's amazing. I'm curious, what were you expecting? Because I think there's some natural trepidation when you come to an event with strangers and not less 10,000 miles away from home. What were you expecting it to be versus the reality?

[Viji Evers]

Truly, I thought it will be some marathon sessions of spreadsheet conching and you know, you have to do this, you have to do that. Here's the formula. But it's been nothing like that. I mean, those have been sessions that I'm, you know, I can still seek out people to have one on one, but it has been completely different. It's a lot more about. You mentioned this term inner work. A lot of it is about just discovery and more than finances. Something that transcends beyond just numbers. So these deep sessions about connection and about the stuff that Alan did on identity and creating your extraordinary life, we've enjoyed all those sessions and it has been just eye opening because it's not about money, it's all about yourself and what do you want to do with your life. That has been amazing.

[Brad]

Yeah, that's absolutely wonderful. And yeah, the session you mentioned, so we've had some incredible speakers here. So we had Katie and Alan Donegan, Rachel Richards and Amy Minkley, and I ran an event and yeah, it's just been. It's been a really special event. And I'm curious, just as a parting word, what advice would you give to that person who's sitting there on the fence? They just don't know, should I pull the trigger? I think a lot of us in our community, whether this is fair or not, the word carries a lot of loaded baggage. But like, oh, I'm an introvert. I could never come to an event like this. I'm curious, what would be your response to that person?

[Viji Evers]

I think I would just say just do it. Absolutely worth it. You know, if you want to be something different, if you want to make something different than what you have today, you have to take the first step. And I did it. And I mean, I'm super thrilled that I did it.

[Brad]

Awesome. Vijay, thank you so much for coming on.

[Viji Evers]

Thank you, Brad.

[Brad]

All right, so Mark has given us the perspective of someone who's many time attendee of these events. And Viji was really wonderful to come up and talk about a first timer. And I want to kind of dive into some more options here. So Sean is someone I met here and he's actually the admin of our Boston Choose a VI local group, which is remarkable and it's just so cool. This is what I love about events like this, is this is someone who's really just such an integral part of our community. And I get to meet him and spend time with him at an event like this and learn his story, frankly. And his story is really, really interesting because he negotiated, and I'll let him define that word, because it might not truly be a negotiation, but a sabbatical. And I think this could be interesting not only for people who are looking in this very specific case of coming to an event like this, but hey, maybe you have the option at your corporate job to take a sabbatical. Maybe it's part of the way your company works and it's totally unbeknownst to you. And I think that's what's so cool about our community is we just have incredibly brilliant people who dive into things, whether it's the minutia of their 401k and they made a difference and they got the high expense ratio fees and looked at it and said, hey, this is not okay. And they went to their HR department and made a change. I can't tell you how many countless emails I've received of that or an instance like this. And I will turn it over to Sean here to introduce himself and tell us the story.

[Sean]

Hi, I'm Sean from Boston. I'm fortunate to work for a great company that really invests a lot in its people. And one of the things they offer is after you've been at the company for seven years, you're allowed to take up to an eight week unpaid sabbatical to do whatever you want. The company also will grant sabbaticals to teach for a semester or go take a class for a semester. So it's pretty flexible in terms of what the employees want to do. And then every five years you're eligible again for another sabbatical. I've actually been there 15 years at this point, so I could have taken a sabbatical long ago, but I've been sort of on the fence. I attended the phi Chautauqua in 2022 and really spoke to people there. And that's really when I made the decision to finally take a sabbatical and sort of stop the analysis paralysis. What am I going to do? Where am I going to go? How am I going to make this an epic 8 weeks and just take some time to get over my burnout, do some travel and basically have fun and sort of, that's how I set up my sabbatical.

[Mark Troutman]

Well, I've been very fortunate to be able to hang out with you for a number of days before this event. And that is one thing that I think is unique about this event, is that many of us, because we're traveling around the world, halfway around the world, for many of us, we're doing so for a longer period of time. And we got to really enjoy some great time up in Munduk and travel together, get to know each other. He's my roommate at this event, so that's kind of cool, too. And we will be doing some traveling afterwards. And I really enjoy talking to people who are taking sabbaticals, taking time off from work. And I'm very curious as to. Do you have any suggestions for people? First of all, is it working out for you? And secondly, is it something you would recommend other people do?

[Sean]

Absolutely. So this sabbatical did not go as planned. I set up this very elaborate plan to do a whole bunch of scuba diving and made all these plans and all these different hotel arrangements and flight arrangements. And then the first week of diving, I burst my eardrum. So immediately I was sort of thrown kind of out into the open to replan two weeks of my schedule, but ended up having an awesome adventure, traveled all over Java, stayed in Indonesia the entire time, and really got to see the area. And then also take my time, because again, I was not restricted and didn't feel like I had to be at work in a week and see everything there was to see, like I normally do when I travel. So it's really been an opportunity to slow down and actually, like, get to know the culture. And I see the country entirely differently than I ever have when I've traveled before and actually, like, understand why things are as they are and why the culture is as it is here. And it's really been eye opening for me to travel slowly for the first time ever. And I hope to do it more in the future.

[Brad]

Yeah, Sean, that's incredible. And I want to dive in to the nuts and bolts, actually, of how this came about. So do people in your company know? Is it generally known that the sabbatical is an option?

[Sean]

So it's in our corporate policy book for anybody to read. Lately, since the pandemic, there's been a lot more discussion of it because people are doing it more frequently. And I think as people find out about it more and their friends take sabbaticals and realize that, oh, they've taken a sabbatical, it's easier to reintegrate back into work. Right. Because basically they're guaranteeing you a job when you return. And my company is very project oriented. So it's typical that when you go on a sabbatical, when you come back, all of your projects will be gone or changed or have rehired new people. And it's kind of an opportunity to reset your work life. And I think people have realized that it doesn't really take you off the career ladder or change anything. If anything, it expands your job opportunities or your career opportunities at my company. So it's definitely, I think, something more people are finding out about.

[Brad]

Yeah, that's amazing because I would imagine there would be fear of repercussion certainly.

[Mark Troutman]

Right.

[Brad]

Like, hey, we realize we don't need this person for X number of weeks or months and you're being taken off the particular projects you're on. But yet I guess you're saying in your particular company's case, not only is it not a negative, but there's a potential upside to it.

[Sean]

Right. I mean, it's sort of a career reset or a project reset in terms of the work you've been doing. Once you come back, you find new work opportunities within the company and can really change the project you're working on or the kind of work you're doing. One of the things I found out about is we have an office in Singapore and I love Singapore. So when I come back, there'll be a lot of negotiation about potential a foreign post or trying something outside of the country for once.

[Brad]

How does one find this in their corporate policy? Any tips?

[Sean]

Well, one of the things about five people is you've probably read your company handbook. So if you're listening to this podcast, you probably are aware that this exists, but certainly that's a good place to start. Read your company handbook, read your policies. And again, people are very concerned about their insurance and their coverage and things like that. So I expect in this community, if you have a sabbatical in your policy, you'll probably know about it.

[Brad]

Are there any specifics about how you request it or is it just simply dotting I's crossing P's?

[Sean]

So my company is very, I guess, pedantic about corporate HR things. So I had to file an official request using an official form. One of the things that I found a little disturbing is the leave policy was such that they could only let you know 30 days in advance. So I had booked all of this travel under the assumption that I would be granted the sabbatical. But I talked to my managers, and as long as everybody's on board with it, it generally goes through without a problem. It just requires paperwork.

[Brad]

Sean, I wanted to ask, you mentioned in passing the word burnout. That's something that I can certainly relate to, and I think a lot of us can. And I'm curious if you could talk about how your journey to FI has helped you overcome that.

[Sean]

Certainly, finding out about FI has given me the realization and exposure that there are many things that one could do in their life besides work. I see people go on awesome experiences around the globe. I see people creating businesses. I see people investing in real estate, doing all sorts of exciting, motivating things outside of work. And really, that sort of opened the aperture of what I want out of my life besides enjoying my job, which I do and did before and still do and want to get back to. But at the same time, I now realize that there is more to life than just work, and I think the FI community has really opened that up for me.

[Mark Troutman]

So my final question to you is, has this sabbatical changed you in any way? And will you potentially do anything differently as a result of being on this sabbatical once you get back into, I could say, possibly the real world, yes.

[Sean]

And I can answer absolutely yes. The sabbatical, I think, has really changed me. I feel like five events always change me. I come into these things. I come out with 50 new friends, all with new experiences. I hear people's backstory and have deep conversations with people and sort of want to continue that and definitely attend more FI events in the future. As far as going back to work, it has kind of focused me. I honestly haven't thought about work in the past month that I've been away from work. So it has been great from that point of view and now actually thinking about work, because I know I'm going to be back at work in three or four weeks. I'm feeling more inspired to work harder and actually put more into my job, which I think will increase my satisfaction with my job. So I think it is working to alleviate some of the burnout.

[Brad]

Sean, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

[Sean]

Thanks, Brad.

[Brad]

All right, so our next guest is actually a returning guest. This is Christine Whealey, who was on episode 137 way back in 2019. And that episode was rebuilding a life you love with Christine. And what's really neat about Christine is She's built a remarkable business in Nashville and she tours people around and her tour guides tour people around Nashville and bring them to local food establishments. And really the goal is to get visitors to Nashville, to get an understanding of the city, but also to support locally owned businesses. So it's really this wonderful virtuous business that is really helping everybody. But let's be clear, when you own a business, it is not easy to get away for one day, not less, for a potential multiple month trip. And I have Christine up here to talk about this and I think both her and I can go back and forth on what you have to do, both systems wise in your business, finding the right people, setting up the right systems, but also, frankly, what you have to do mentally to be able to walk away for a period of time from the thing that maybe you've built around yourself as part of your identity. And okay, now I'm walking away for maybe in Christine's case, three plus months. And that does not happen overnight. And it's not easy. And I think again, this can be illustrative for people who are business owners out there. We have a lot. Right? And how do you make this not just a cult of personality? How do you make this not just about you being the single point of failure in your business? Right, Because I think a lot of us have built businesses where we are the constraints. And Christine came up and actually did one of our case studies last night and I think, and I hope that it was really helpful for her because I think just sometimes seeing that separate perspective just gives you an idea of, oh wow, this is not so insurmountable. Oh, wow, there might be some options for me. And I think a lot of business owners feel trapped. And Christine, I want you to talk about where you are and what you had to do to get here.

[Christine Whealey]

Well, Brad, I can tell you that I am feeling significantly better today than yesterday because yesterday was incredibly challenging. So this all came about starting in January when a good friend of mine, Rachel Richards, texted me and said, hey, come to Bali and see me speak at this event. And I had it on my calendar to sign up for this event because I had met Amy Minkley In 2021, Amy and her fiance Matthew, on a drive to Camp Phi in January of 2021. And it was amazing. And so I signed up to come to Bali to hang out with these amazing people who some of them I had met and Rachel who I hadn't. And over the next, I guess, nine months, I've taken the time to set up the systems in my business to hopefully be on the other side of the world for 12 to 15 weeks. And that looked like hiring a part time manager, putting systems in place, really trusting my team. I will say I learned it's really hard to let go that my part time manager, full disclosure, was asking for more work in June, like hey, hand me more, hand me more. And there were things that I was unsure about letting go of. And then let's fast forward to October. I'm ready to go on this trip. I'm super excited. And less than 72 hours after I left, one of my tour guides quits with no notice. In fact, about 15 hours later she was hosting two tours that we had to move around and reschedule. As I'm underneath this Northern Lights exhibit in Singapore having the time of my life going, oh my gosh, I'm constantly being pulled out of what I want to be doing to do things in my business. Also, my part time manager took a full time general manager job at a restaurant two weeks before I left. So I will say that I've been interrupted every day at about every hour. I've had conversations at 5:30 in the morning because I'm 13 hours away from my business. And yesterday morning was kind of a breaking point for me where I was like, wow, I gave it my best shot and this isn't working. And I don't know how like I did everything I could. This maybe is what my life is going to look like. And I don't know that I can do the interruptions to my daily life like seven days a week, 365 days a year anymore. Thankfully, being at this event I was able to be one of the case studies last night where there was an amazing panel with Brad and Mark and Rachel Richards, my dear friend who spoke at this event yesterday. And what that did was it gave me perspective and it gave me ideas on what I could do to fix this or my ways kind of out. And it kind of showed me that this isn't this imprisoning thing that it felt like yesterday. And so last night I will say I slept better than I have in months. I was up earlier than I ever am and today I feel like myself again because I have hope and ideas and perspective on how this can get better and that these are just challenges. And it didn't work this time. It doesn't mean it won't work next time.

[Mark Troutman]

And I would say as we left the case study, I kind of threw it out to the audience and said, is there Anyone here that has a similar situation. And I saw you talking with some people in the last 24 hours, and that is, in essence, the sense of community coming together to help each other. Was that your experience?

[Christine Whealey]

Yeah. It has been incredible. The people that have come up and to each of you that are sitting here, if you came up and first of all, I got a lot of hugs last night, which was amazing. And secondly, I'm in a room of the most brilliant people I've ever met in my life and the most creative people I've ever met in my life. And people have come up with the most amazing ideas, from VAs to call centers to different ways that I could structure maybe a sale of my business if I wanted to do that in the future. And it's just been really incredible how much people really rallied around me and saw the physical and emotional struggle that I put forth pretty vulnerably in front of this amazing group of people last night.

[Brad]

Christine, you use the word perspective, and I think that's just such a critical one, especially when you are in the depths of something that feels insurmountable and it feels like there's no way out. And I think as business owners, it can often feel like that. And I'm curious if you can talk through what that word perspective means to you. And especially in light of the case study where maybe it opened your aperture up a little bit to, okay, maybe I can kind of calm my central nervous system. Maybe I don't have to be in fight or flight, and maybe we can think through this. That's how I saw it unfolding, almost as an epiphany. But I don't want to put words in your mouth. Obviously, I'd love to hear that word jumped off the page to me when you said it. Perspective. Just. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Christine Whealey]

Yeah, that's a great question, Brad. So when you own a business, I think oftentimes you feel kind of alone, like you're kind of a little bit on an island because you don't have coworkers. And so I tend to rely on being able to talk to other business owners about their journey because they're the ones that are in the same shoes that I am. And it's hard to find other business owners that are open to talking about it and that are willing to be vulnerable about what it's really like sometimes. And so it's tough to find your tribe in those moments. And sometimes it's hard to talk to somebody and say, I may be not working a Lot of hours. But the constant interruptions to my life. I will say 90% of my time or my brain space revolves around my business. You're always thinking about it. There's always things happening. My business runs seven days a week, and there's a weight to that. And I think the weight sometimes gets so heavy that you can't see past the problems. The Donegans talked about that this morning, that sometimes when there are a lot of problems, that's what we focus on. And I will stand here and openly admit that that was absolutely where I was at yesterday, which is there's a lot of problems, and I want to be able to snap my fingers and have them all be solved so that I can focus and be present at this amazing event that I've really worked so hard to be at. And what last night did was I got to sit in a room with people that are far smarter than I am, and they could take a look at my situation from an outside view. So instead of just me kind of just seeing the problems coming at me all the time and me seeing my limited perspective from being in the day to day, I got to have people kind of take a look at my situation from the outside and say, wait, Christine, there is some opportunity here. There's some opportunity here to use your business as a tool to get the freedom that you want. I was wondering if all the hard work I'd done was all for not yesterday, honestly. And I walked away knowing and seeing that it's. That it's not that. There's a lot of hope. There's a good future to come. There is a future to a little local flavor, and there's a path forward, and it doesn't look as scary or as hard as it felt to me yesterday.

[Brad]

Yeah, I mean, that's incredible, Christine. And you said something in there that I think just describes, like, this tunnel vision. The stress and it's. The weight gets so heavy, you can't see past the problems. That just. That resonated with me. That was like a goosebump type moment, because I think a lot of us feel that. Right. And you can't see a way out. And I think that, again, it's like this myopic view, and we just get caught in it. But I think that, again, is the beauty of having people around you, not just in an event like this, but having people you can trust, having people you can talk to, having maybe some type of. I don't know. If you're a business owner, find other local business owners that you can just. Hey, can we just have a 30 minute chat? Because I think while I would love to say we came up with like world changing ideas, I think they were clear, but they aren't clear when you're stuck in this fight or flight mode. And I think that's what's so important about connection, about community. Obviously, I think we did a pretty good job. So let's be clear. You did a great job, but I really just wanted to hone on that because it's astonishing to see the change in you as a human being, frankly. We are talking almost 24 hours to the minute and it looks like that weight that you described was lifted off of your shoulders. So I just want to say a huge congrats to you. Huge congrats. And just go and enjoy your 12 to 15 weeks off.

[Christine Whealey]

Thanks, Brad.

[Brad]

Yeah, thanks for being back on the show. I really appreciate it, Christine. All right, so our last guest today is Susannah. And I met her at an extraordinary event this past April in Las Vegas with the Donegans. And her life has undergone a pretty significant change since then. So that was April of 2024, and we're recording this November 3rd, 2024. So in the intervening time, Susannah actually left her job and she has officially fired. And yeah, it's remarkable to see the changes that can take place in a short period of time. And Susannah, first, congrats. Thank you, Brad, and welcome. I'm very excited to have you here. So I'm curious, did the event in April have anything to do with you firing or was it already on the table?

[Susannah]

I was Hemming and Hong back in April whether to fire or not, and I think it kind of solidified the decision to leave my job. Yes.

[Brad]

Okay, that's. Yeah, that's incredible. So talk me through. So we met in April, and a couple of short months later, you made the decision. But that doesn't happen overnight. And I know you were a physician, so talk me through the mechanics of it, maybe the psychology, if you're so inclined, but also, like, how does a physician make that leap?

[Susannah]

So it's been a very difficult decision to leave my job because for physicians, it's a sense of identity. Also, we feel some kind of obligation after so many years of training. And, you know, it's an honor to be elected to be a physician, but it's many, many years of training and many, many years of dedication to work. And I did one more year syndrome for 10 years. You know, just. I knew I already was fi. But during that timeframe, it made it very difficult. It wasn't so much the financial part that made it difficult to leave, but also just I felt like I was leaving the highest level of education and experience behind because it takes about five to 10 years to really, after you graduate residency. And I did fellowship to kind of. Because it is a practice for all that duration. And after that, I feel like I was at the peak of my career when I finally started contemplating leaving. And that was part of the main issue that held me behind.

[Brad]

Yeah, I mean, listen, I completely understand that this is something that bedevils a lot of us. And I think, frankly, a lot of us get caught up in the word should. Should I do this? Should I keep doing this? Is this, again, part of my identity in this case? But I'm curious, did you feel like you owed this to anybody because of your position and the time spent and the resources? Was there ever a sense of obligation or did that not come into it?

[Susannah]

Definitely a sense of obligation, and that's what kept me in the game for another 10 years.

[Mark Troutman]

So I was going to say this is a little different for somebody in your profession than some of the other people here. Many times we have discussions about, oh, well, you can leave your job, you can always work again, you can always do something else. But I would think that being a physician or some other professional, it's not so easy to just step back into. So that must have been part of your decision. How do you go through that mental process of saying, if I do this, this is probably a final decision. Can you expand on that a little bit? Because I'm very curious as to. If you're, I don't know, like I was a money manager, I can probably go back and manage money. It's not a big deal. But I think a physician especially, that is a decision that's probably much harder to come to. And maybe you could speak to that a little bit.

[Susannah]

You're 100% correct, Mark. That was one of the reasons that was holding you back from retiring early. When in medicine, if you don't work for a period of three to six months, a lot of your credentialing expires, I can't really ever go back once, probably at the end of this year into a hospital setting, because I have to explain any type of leave of absence for a period longer than six months, I can't say, oh, I retired and then I decided to come back. But I can. If I eventually decide to come back into medicine, I'm going to keep my license. I've actually just Renewed my Arizona license and I'm going to keep the basic requirements in place because I'm not, I would love to maybe at some point eventually do work more in a concierge capacity. So I can just control my schedule, but I can do it in a private setting that does not involve hospital work or any type of. I'm a nephrologist. So basically credentialing and dialysis units is going to be very difficult. Again, unless I do somewhere remote where there's a high, high need like Indian reservations or the other ones would be like a severely in need rural communities because all of those will exempt me. But I think if I ever go back into medicine, it'll be more in the preventative setting and more in the outside setting where I can just be not need hospital credentials.

[Mark Troutman]

So do you have any suggestions for people that might be in a similar situation where. So is it something like I need to have most people talk about the 4% rule or 25 times? Is it something that you need more cushion to make this final decision? Was that part of your thought process?

[Susannah]

I hit FI 10 years ago, so anything after that was actually gravy on top. And I've made some crazy investments, especially during COVID and 2022 where I actually significantly increased my net worth. So money was never part of the issue towards the end, you know. So for me, making sure that I was comfortable never really factored in because I already had that comfort.

[Mark Troutman]

So any suggestions to someone else who might be in a position? So what should they be thinking about when it comes to this kind of finality decision if they're in that situation?

[Susannah]

So I would recommend, I mean we can always work. I mean I quit private practice about 10 years ago and I worked in private practice for about nine years. But after I left my private practice job, I just decided to work on my own terms. So I did something what's called locums, where you can control a lot of your schedule, you can decide which shifts you want to work. And for people that are thinking of transitioning, that are at the point of fi and still want to keep their credentialing, locums is a great way to do it. And I found a lot of financial advantages to being locums because being paid as a 1099, you can write off quite a lot and significantly contribute to a solo 401K. So physicians that are thinking of retiring or want a different change of pace, they can kind of transition out through the locum's jobs and they can actually just Keep one toe in the water while they're transitioning out, phasing out.

[Brad]

So I'm curious, it's been about five months now since you left your job, and that's not an easy transition.

[Susannah]

Yes, you're correct. The first couple of months, it really was a very difficult transition because you kind of have to just sit down and figure out. You have to have this conversation with yourself and just figure out what your values are, what your priorities are. And I think that once I went over that hump and even in the setting of slowly retiring over those 10 years, it still was like a rude awakening. I feel like two months was actually short compared to what most other people go through. I think, relatively, because I had been retiring, I basically started 10 days a month for a couple of years, and then I would do one week every month and then one week every two months. And then my recruiter said, you either quit working or you got to have a more busier schedule. And I said, I don't want that. I think I'm just going to quit working at that point.

[Brad]

So rude awakening, that's a term that I think a lot of people are going to perk their ears up when they hear that, because I think there is some concern when we reach fi. Even though hopefully people who have been listening to Shoes of five for years have realized this is not just about the money. It's about getting our minds right and trying to figure this out. But nevertheless, it's not easy. So by no means do I think this is just, oh, we should all ride off into the sunset. And I mean, you were at 5 for 10 years, so, I mean, this was something that was on your mind for a while, but yet it's still determined as a rude awakening. And believe me, I completely understand that. I'm curious, is there any advice you would give to yourself maybe a year or two ago that maybe in hindsight could have helped?

[Susannah]

In hindsight, I wish I had retired a couple of years earlier, to tell you the truth. I think that transition period, you should expect it, like, expect the worst, and hopefully you'll come out with the best.

[Brad]

All right, Susannah, that was the perfect way to end both this segment and the episode. And I think it is something that a lot of us need to think about when we make the ultimate decision, which is to leave our jobs. And no matter what that looks like in your life, it's something you need to prepare for, and it's not going to be easy. And I think we all need to be aware of that right so this is just a reality of life in Phi. It doesn't mean you've done anything wrong. Right. And I think that's the most important thing. And I'm curious, as we end, what are you most excited about?

[Susannah]

I think I'm excited to pursue the things that interest me, and I'm really excited to be here in Bali with this fabulous crew. And I feel like you guys are already my family, so thank you.

[Mark Troutman]

So, Brad, you asked me how these events affect me, and now that you've been here and we've been a few days into this event, you've traveled halfway around the world yourself. How has this event affected you in any way? I'm very curious about your perspective as a participant.

[Brad]

Yeah, it's a great question. I think, for me in my real life, and I use that kind of facetiously, but in my real life, I am sorely lacking connection. And I think it's really special for me to come here and to meet new people and to find people that I'm going to be friends with for years. And it's so hard to describe an event like this because, I mean, I can picture someone listening to this saying, like, oh, come on, man. You can't make a connection like that. You can't. It doesn't make sense. But, I mean, there are literally thousands of people in the FI community who have been to events like this and can corroborate this, right? It's like there is something uniquely special about coming to an FI event and realizing that your people are out there. And it just. It means a lot. I mean, I think the best thing that I can say about it is I'm now planning on coming to many more of these. And they aren't redundant, as, you know, obviously, you of all people, right? Like, they're not redundant at all. It's marvelous. Like, there's nothing like it to sit down over a three, four, five day weekend or week and have these amazing conversations just one after the other. And, like, how is it even possible? You know, it doesn't. If you get one of those conversations in a year at home, it's a lot. Like, a lot, a lot. I mean, I'll go, like, half a decade without a conversation like that, right? It's just, like, par for the course here and that just. There's an alchemy here. It doesn't happen by accident. It happens through the amazing hard work of people like Amy and her team, who's just been unbelievable. And it happens through a spirit of openness, right? Like, all of these people took time out of their lives to come here and to connect, and it shows every single second that you're here. I mean, it's really special. And, you know, I want everyone here to know just how much it means to me. So I unfortunately haven't had a chance to talk to everybody, but I'm really trying. And if we haven't chatted, I'd love to sit down before we leave, but just know it genuinely means a lot to me. So thank you so much.

[Mark Troutman]

Yeah. So I wanted to say now you understand why I go to all these events, right? And I will be very curious to see how you progress over the next year, and maybe we can touch base in a year's time and see what's changed. And I'm very interested to see how this event affects all of you, because I saw it so vividly with the participants that went last year. And I think you're going to be shocked and very surprised to see how your life changes in the next 12 months. So thank you all for being here and thank you for hanging out. Yeah, let me hang out with you.

[Brad]

Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate it. And to the audience, I hope you get a sense of how much this means to us. And I really would advise just take a look into one of these events. All right, so 2025, there are probably minimum dozen of these. Easily, easily. Just think about it, because it really makes an impact, and I think it will, potentially, without hyperbole, change the course of your life. And it's done that for a lot of us that you heard from today and a lot of people that you haven't heard from today. And I think it's really something special. So, again, thank you for being here and thank you for listening to choose a 5. Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the choose of I community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first, subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player. Just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choose fi.com subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there. And I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox. So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have Choose a VI local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a vi.com local and you'll find a list of all of Those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with FI or you have a family member or a friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways choose a VI episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community and even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life? And then choose if I created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free. Just head to choose a5.comfi101 and again, thanks for listening.