ChooseFI Episode 573 Summary

Title: Cognitive Behavioral Tools for FI With Jasper Lee, PhD
Date: November 17, 2025
Host: Brad (ChooseFI)
Guest: Jasper Lee, PhD – Clinical Psychologist, Asst. Prof. Harvard Medical School, NIH-funded researcher

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the psychological side of Financial Independence (FI), exploring why the journey to FI is less about numbers and more about mindset and behavior. Brad is joined by Dr. Jasper Lee, who brings clinical tools and actionable strategies from psychology—including cognitive restructuring and behavioral activation—to help the FI community address common emotional and motivational challenges on the way to FI and after.

Main Theme:
How cognitive and behavioral psychology tools can be used to overcome mental barriers, create healthy habits, and optimize your journey toward Financial Independence—making FI not just possible, but probable.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Psychology Is (Almost) Everything in FI

[00:00–03:24]

• Brad states, “FI is in my estimation, 90 to 95% psychological and the actual nuts and bolts of money are maybe 5 or 10% of this.”
• Jasper agrees, highlighting that most people underestimate their ability to change their thoughts and behaviors. “I think people get stuck in thinking these are unchangeable… but we actually do, and we can slow down and start to better understand what are our thoughts, what are our behaviors, and how do we want to change those." [03:24]

Actionable Insight:
Recognize that most obstacles in the FI journey are mental, not technical.

2. Jasper's Personal FI Story & Goal Setting

[05:40–08:49]

• Jasper came to FI with expertise in psychology but little background in finance, initially believing it was knowledge only for the privileged.
• He focused on making his behaviors goal-directed rather than mood-directed: “I think about wanting my behavior to be goal directed and not mood directed.” [07:23]
• Uses SMART goals (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, Time-oriented) and "chunking" to break long-term FI goals into actionable steps.

Memorable Moment:
“My goal is FI in 12 to 17 years, but what do I need to do this year? What savings rates, what kinds of income do I need to have? How do I make that happen?” – Jasper [08:14]

3. The 'Boring Middle,' Experimentation, and Activity Audits

[09:54–17:06]

• The middle years of FI journey, often dull or monotonous, are great for experimenting and preparing for post-FI life.
• Jasper suggests “practicing” FI by integrating aspects of the ideal post-FI life now. For him, this includes spending more time with family.
• Introduces the "activity audit": break your week into chunks (morning, afternoon, evening), record main activities, and note what you got out of each.
• Proposes behavioral experiments: try new activities in unfulfilling time slots to improve life satisfaction.

“If you could FI tomorrow and had all this time, what would you do? Figure that out and start practicing doing that. Spending more time with family for me is one.” – Jasper [09:54]

4. Finding the Right Balance: Structure in Daily Life

[17:35–18:11]

• Jasper advocates for a “middle ground” in life structure: use loose scaffolding (e.g., two- or three-hour blocks) rather than a rigid, hour-by-hour schedule.

“I think we do well as human beings with some level of structure… I like big chunks of time. Generally, what am I doing in this two or three hour chunk of time and what did I get out of that?” – Jasper [17:35]

5. Where Our Money Stories Come From: The Klontz Money Scripts

[20:19–23:06]

• Money beliefs are deeply shaped by upbringing and culture.
• Introduces the Klontz Money Script Inventory (available online) which identifies four money scripts:
  1. Money Avoidance – Uncomfortable with money; guilt about wealth.
  2. Money Worship – Believes money fixes everything; always wanting more.
  3. Money Status – Self-worth tied to net worth.
  4. Money Vigilance – Overly cautious, high anxiety about money.
• Most in the FI community score high on Money Vigilance, which can lead to anxiety and difficulty enjoying money.

6. Scarcity Mindset & The Historical Evolution of Retirement

[26:44–29:28]

• Retirement is a very recent concept in human history (since late 19th/early 20th century); psychologically, most people still operate with a scarcity mindset.
• This scarcity wiring explains the deep-seated FI anxiety—even for those who have enough.

“We inherited those genes and that way of thinking… We come to this with a scarcity mindset that there is never enough.” – Jasper [28:03]

7. Cognitive Behavioral Triangle: Thoughts, Behaviors, Emotions

[33:12–36:38]

• Describes the “cognitive behavioral triangle”—thoughts, emotions, and behaviors are interconnected and cyclically influence each other.
• Example: “Oh, I'm not going to have enough” (thought) → worry (emotion) → over-frugality (behavior) → further negative thoughts.
• Automatic thoughts can lead us into unhelpful emotional spirals.

8. Actionable Tools: Two Main Skills

A. Cognitive Restructuring
[40:50–49:33]

• Recognize and challenge unhelpful automatic thoughts.
• Strategies:
  • Evidence for/evidence against a thought, then develop a balanced thought.
  • “Even though X, Y is also true”—e.g., a financial mistake doesn’t negate your other progress.
  • Examine worst, best, and most likely case scenarios.

“We are not trying to skip through a field of flowers all day… When things are not great, we want to know that so we can adjust appropriately.” – Jasper [50:34]

• Watch for “thinking traps” like catastrophizing and all-or-nothing thinking.

B. Behavioral Activation
[52:06–62:24]

• Don't just live in your head—take action.
• Fill your life with activities across these four dimensions:
  1. Accomplishment (mastery, learning)
  2. Pleasure
  3. Social
  4. Physical
• Conduct an “activity audit” (see above) and rate activities for accomplishment and pleasure.
• Use behavioral experiments to try new activities and see what enriches your life.
• These activities help both for day-to-day happiness and as coping tools during stress (“When the market's down, go for a walk or hang with friends”).

“It's physical activity, for sure. You said you're going to crush it, so there's accomplishment, it makes you feel good, so there's pleasure, and there are other people there. So it's also social. So it's got all four.” – Jasper on why going to the gym is such a great coping tool [61:47]

9. Practical Next Steps and Resources

[63:39–64:40]

• If self-help isn’t enough, seek professional help. Don’t need a specialist in FI—CBT or ACT-focused therapists can help.
• Book recommendation: The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris (ACT-focused).
• “It's just important to find somebody you click with.” – Jasper [64:40]

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “FI is in my estimation, 90 to 95% psychological and the actual nuts and bolts of money are maybe 5 or 10%.”
  – Brad [00:00]

• “I think about wanting my behavior to be goal directed and not mood directed.”
  – Jasper [07:23]

• “If you could FI tomorrow and you had all this time, what would you do? Figure that out and start practicing doing that.”
  – Jasper [09:54]

• “We inherited those genes and that way of thinking… We come to this with a scarcity mindset that there is never enough.”
  – Jasper [28:03]

• “Even though X, Y is also true.”
  (Balanced Thought Formula) – Jasper [47:24]

• “When the market's down, go for a walk or hang with friends… [choose activities] high in accomplishment, pleasure, social, and/or physical.”
  – Jasper [55:40]

Important Timestamps

• 00:00: Introduction; why psychology rules FI.
• 05:40: Jasper’s personal FI journey background.
• 08:14: Using SMART goals & chunking.
• 09:54: Importance of experimentation & activity audit.
• 20:19: Money beliefs & Klontz Money Scripts.
• 26:44: Evolutionary background of our money fears.
• 33:12: Cognitive-behavioral triangle explained.
• 40:50: Cognitive restructuring—how to challenge negative thoughts.
• 47:24: Formula for balanced thinking.
• 52:06: Behavioral activation—framework & four categories.
• 61:47: Gym as multi-dimensional behavioral activation example.
• 63:39: When & how to get professional help.

Action Steps for Listeners

1. Assess your money beliefs:
   Take the Klontz Money Script Inventory online.
2. Audit your current life:
   Break your week into chunks, log activities and what you get out of them.
3. Set meaningful, manageable goals:
   Use SMART and “chunking” principles.
4. Challenge unhelpful thoughts:
   Write them down, look for evidence & reframe.
5. Fill your days with meaningful activities:
   Focus on accomplishment, pleasure, social, and physical.
6. When stuck, experiment:
   Try new behaviors to enrich your life.
7. If needed, reach out for professional psychological help.

Final Thoughts

This episode gives powerful, practical tools—rooted in evidence-based psychology—to help you not just reach FI, but enjoy the journey and your post-FI life. As Brad says, “We are never finished products… That’s the fun part.” [65:48]

For more from Dr. Jasper Lee:
https://jasperleephd.com

Book resource:
The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris

To Take Action, Reflect:

• What are your default money beliefs, and where do they come from?
• How can you chunk your big FI goals into smaller, actionable steps?
• Are you living your ideal post-FI life right now in some way?
• How will you challenge your negative automatic thoughts this week?
• What new accomplishment or pleasure activity could you try?

“We can always work on things, we can always iterate, we can always test and we can get better and we can live better lives. And I think that is the path to FI.”
– Brad [65:48]