A (2:17)

So the question is, how does research on longevity influence your thoughts on retirement, both generally and personally? And here's what I'm thinking about when I say that I'm really interested in the longevity content that's out there, or at least I feel like I used to be. And I read the books and I listened to the podcasts, but I kind of got out of it because I felt like at the end, really, the main meat of it was exercise and eat. Right. And then I just felt like I wasn't really getting a lot more out of those. Well, recently I listened to an interview with David Sinclair. Do you know who this is?

B (2:59)

I do. I actually am listening to an episode with him right now. I wonder if it's the same one.

A (3:03)

Is it the CEO one?

B (3:05)

Yeah, it's Diary of a CEO. I'm only like 20 minutes into it, though. That's great.

A (3:09)

Okay. I'm only halfway through as well. Right. And I read this guy's book, like, years ago, and he is great. But I felt like it was new information for me. Can you link to this episode? Because it's so good. Okay, so we'll link to that. But he convinced me, maybe I'm just easy to convince that, like, okay, I might not be thinking about this correctly and I might really live 20 years longer than I'm envisioning now as, like, my best case scenario. He makes this case that, of course, is how we should think about it. That when we think into the future, we think it will be like it is now. We all do that for every aspect of our lives. But of course, that is not true. And so he's saying, hey, you have to really think about all of the advancements. Like, we are doing this research now. We are making progress now, and what that's going to look like in 20 years in terms of health, in terms of disease and medicine is going to be totally different. So I just was kind of blown away and like, oh, my gosh, what would it mean if I lived to 105? What would it mean if I lived to 120? And then it didn't take that long for me to think, what would it mean for my money? And I know that kind of the idea behind how we do the math is maybe that is not something to worry about. But thinking about it as an extra 20 years, an extra 30 years is so significant that it's worth maybe talking about. So how do you think about it?

B (4:48)

Oh, that is a really thought provoking one. Holy cow. Interestingly, and you could have not possibly known this, so Dr. Bobby, who's been on our show a number of times, he actually sent me an email for an idea for an episode and it was precisely on this. It was longevity and your impact on your fine number, I kid you not, because it's crazy. We're recording this at the end of March and I'm going on vacation with my girls and then Aaron and I are going to Japan for three weeks. So we're not going to record that until May, but that's a to be continued. So that'll come out in June. So I'm actually curious to hear what Dr. Bobby, who's a fantastically knowledgeable physician, has to say on this. But that episode with David Sinclair, and similar to you, I followed him for years. You never know with cutting edge science, right? Like, it's easy to say that we're going to get an extra 20 or 30 years. I mean, I'm not 100% certain. I mean, he's not 100% certain that that's going to be the case. But that all said, I look at my parents who are in their 70s, and I look at myself, who's now 46, and I'm like, I'm in pretty good shape. I think there's a reasonable likelihood I'm going to live into my 80s, 90s, or 1/ hundreds even. And it's funny, Ginger, as you're asking this, I'm thinking both of the money, but of the health part too, right? It's like the advent of AI is going to have a significant impact on longevity. And this is just a guess, of course, but I mean, the amount of, of shortcutting of research that AI can help do on finding cures for things, I think it's unfathomable. I know Aaron and I have been using AI to create actually, interestingly, a health app. And this is something I'll talk about in the coming months. We're not there yet, but I mean, just using AI, it is staggering. I don't know how much familiarity you have with different AI tools, but yeah, she's been using Claude code and it's basically like having the 10 best junior developers in the entire world on staff for you and like you as the human, just basically interface between them. And it's astonishing. I mean, it's like having millions of dollars worth of payroll for a 20 or $100 a month subscription. It's crazy. So I've seen a lot of talk now about clinical trials getting sped up and such, because AI can work through things and can find things that would take humans ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times as long to figure out. So I'm super excited for that. I Mean, obviously there are some potential real significant negatives of AI, let's be clear. But I think there's a lot of real significant upside as well. That's a very long way of saying, I think there's a reasonable likelihood that either AI or like this David Sinclair is talking about, and he's a Harvard professor and he talks about the information theory of aging is how he looks at it. And he's talking about essentially resetting cells. And he talked in animal models how they've had significant benefit doing this with the eye. You can basically reset some of the age related things. Like, I know I actually just got the old personalized the presbyopia, the basically needing bifocals. So I didn't think aging was coming for me, honestly, Ginger, but now I'm seeing it in real time. So to actually get to the heart of your question, I think practically for most of us, we are so conservative with our FI numbers and with our withdrawal rates that our money, barring a zombie apocalypse or an AI apocalypse, our money's going to last in perpetuity, whether you live to 90 or you live to 190. I think that's just the reality. Like most of us are at like a 3% withdrawal rate when 4% is the number that we normally use. Brilliant people like Frank Vasquez and Aubrey Williams talk about high 4% withdrawal rates or potentially 5% safe withdrawal rates. So for me, I am not overly concerned. I'm thrilled for living longer. And I don't think my money is going to run out, I'm pretty sure, because again, like, even I, who talk about this all the time, like about being overly conservative to the negative side of like not counting Social Security and bumping up your fine number and then lowering your expected return all to have a safe number. And also, frankly, Ginger, I don't spend that much. Like, I have a decent net worth and I don't spend 4% of that every year. And I'm living the best life I could possibly imagine. So I'm not like depriving myself in any way. So yeah, I think practically we're all probably going to be okay. But that does kind of like skirt around your actual question. Like I can't run the numbers off the top of my head, of course, but, you know, smarter people than I can. And yeah, it might be interesting to run through that. But anyway, where do you come down on this? What do you think? And obviously this was top of mind that you brought it up first thing.

A (9:31)

Yeah, I mean, I listened to Half of an episode yesterday and your whole life changed? Yeah, I haven't given it a whole lot of thought. I did try to engage a friend in a discussion about it and she just was very unwilling. And I thought, oh, like, this is that thing. Because just this idea of like, okay, you listen to some weird podcast and there's a study that happened in mice and you want me to like, change my financial plan about it.

B (9:59)

Was this a five friend, Ginger?

A (10:01)

Not really.

B (10:02)

Okay.

A (10:03)

And I think it's related to. It's just so hard for us to imagine things being different than they are now. And that kind of leads me into my next question, which is related, which is about, like, how do you think about that older version of yourself and how do you take care of him when you don't know who he's going to be? I get you're going to be the same person. Like, I get it. And in the podcast he talks about, or maybe this was from something else, but this idea that if you think about who you were 20 years ago, if you ask people, they will often say, oh, I was, you know, I was really different. But then when you ask them to look ahead 20 years, then the idea is like, oh, I'll basically be the same. Right. And when I think about who I was 20 years ago, there are some really big things that are different about how I live my life. Even things that they say never change. Like your chronotype. You are born that way and no one ever changes. But I don't know what to tell you, man. Like, I changed it and now I'm a morning person and I used to be a night person. Right. Like, I never could have envisioned that happening. Back when I was like, my idea was to get up at 11 and now I get up at 5.

B (11:20)

Okay, is that life circumstances or did you actually change that on purpose or some combination thereof?

A (11:26)

Both. Becoming a parent, I was like, okay, I gotta change this. But then it changed in a real way for me that now I can't imagine ever going back to it, even when I don't have a child at home. Okay, okay, here's another one. I used to love winter. If you would have asked me, I don't know, maybe 30 years ago, my favorite season would have been winter. I find winter deeply depressing. Now I like, make all my plans around my dislike of this season. And how can I get somewhere sunny? How can I get somewhere warm? I've kind of looked into it because I have found it to be so bizarre that I have changed in this Huge way I read, hey, maybe this is a thing that can happen in midlife and maybe it's related to a lot of things or whatever. But the point is, I could not have imagined this for myself. And so I wonder, what are the other ways that I will change and how I can account for that. I'll give you one more example and then I want to hear what you have to say. So when I start to think about what this is like for me now or how this influences how I think about the future, I just went on a trip. I love going on a trip. And I stayed in this Airbnb. And the bed was okay. It wasn't horrible or anything, but it wasn't my bed. And I got back home, I'm so happy to be in my bed. It was such a big deal to me, that comfort of my bed. And it made me think with some sadness, you know, one of my ideal planning, here's who I want to be when I reach by in January. I want to go away for a month every year to a different cool, warm place. And this was the first time I was like, well, if this gets worse and I am more like, ooh, this comfort of being home and the comfort of being in my own bed, maybe it won't feel good to be in a crappy bed for a month. Right? And that's kind of that thing that I'm not really thinking about that that doesn't seem super realistic, but maybe this thing that I think is going to be the most exciting thing in retirement won't appeal to me at all by the time I get there.

B (13:46)

Yeah, well, I think that's the essence of this entire part of the conversation, right? It's like, hey, what if these things that I planned for years aren't actually what I want? I think that's deeply impactful and personal for all of us because we all have plans for what Fi is going to look like. But I think it's always going to change. I really do. And I don't want to say come to grips with it, but I'm at the point in life where I don't view that as a negative.

A (14:14)

You're not upset?

B (14:15)

I'm not upset with it. I just roll with it, honestly, like, because I think it's okay. I think it's part of the fun of life. And like, I think it's easy to over plan. And for those of us recovering, Type A is like, we plan things out, we envision what this is going to look like, and we make it Happen, like, that's what we've done our whole lives. Or I'll just speak for me instead of the broad we. And I don't know, I just, I go with the flow a lot more now, and I don't know that I ever would have said that, but I've just seen so many people who have come before me in the fi world, friends of mine who have changed their preferences and they're totally okay with it. And so, like Brandon, the mad scientist is a perfect example where he planned on traveling and then realized, like, I don't really want that. And he traveled for a very short time. And Alan and Katie Donegan are more recent examples. And I don't know that they've necessarily talked about this all that much publicly, but they've been traveling full time for six years and they've absolutely loved it. There's no regret, there's no negativity, but they are at a point where they're looking to settle down a little bit more and not travel quite as much. I don't know exactly what that looks like. They don't know exactly what that looks like, but it's going to look like a lot less travel than they've done the last six years. And when they came and visited us, they were like, oh, you have a refrigerator with all these Greek yogurts. And jokingly, of course, we talk about our protein. If you're talking about longevity and fitness and things, we like to joke about our apothecary of all our supplements and a fridge full of 72 Greek yogurts from Costco when the delivery comes and home cooked meals. And like, they were at a point where they, they really appreciated that and longed for it. And I think that's okay. Like, that doesn't invalidate the last six years of their lives just because now, in this season or today, they want to do something different. And I know that I'm going to want to do something different in the future. I don't know what that looks like, but it's hard to imagine that 30 years from now it's just going to be a straight line from here to there. Because, yeah, to your point, like, you look back at your life and you're like, oh, wow, I never could have envisioned that. It's a series of. I never could have envisioned that. And I think if you're okay with that and don't consider it a failure, I think that is one of the biggest things. Like, oh, I had this plan and then I didn't like it or oh, it didn't work out. And sometimes things don't work out, or sometimes you just don't like it. Or sometimes you do that for six months or a year or six years, and you want to move on. I think that's okay. And that's also why we talk about these, like, little mini life experiments, about trying to figure some of this stuff out along the way on the journey to fi. Right. And, like, that doesn't mean you're never going to find an answer because we're never fixed. Gingerbread. Like, you know that we are constantly evolving. And I think that's a feature, not a bug, personally.

A (17:10)

Okay, this reminds me of something else I want to talk to you about. I didn't know if we would do it on the show, but let's do it on the show.

B (17:15)

Let's do it.

A (17:16)

Okay. So we talked in an episode like, two years ago or something about making our die with zero spreadsheets. The bucket list where you say, in this next five years, here's what I want to happen the next five years, and on and on. And the idea is you kind of have to have this stuff laid out so that you can really think about where this fits in a healthy time of life or where this fits in terms of, like, when you have extra money or not. Like, I really get the value of doing this exercise. We said we were going to do it. We never have, and we didn't do it. And so I guess I want to still do it. I want you to do it. I want us to talk about it. But I didn't just forget about it. That's not why I didn't do it. I have found it really hard, and it's partly based on I don't know who I'm going to be in seven years. I don't know what's going to be appealing to me. And I think the reason I just thought of this now is connected to something you just said, which is, are we almost sucking the joy out of this a little bit by doing that? And what I mean is, okay, this year, all of my travel is planned. That's so great. I have so many fun little things I'm looking forward to. But once I realized that that was set in a way, I usually don't plan this much in advance. I felt a little sad, really, because I don't have room in my year schedule now to do something unexpected or like, I know everything that's going to happen, and there's something about that that doesn't feel super great. To me. And so when I think about doing that for the next 40 years, like, here's what my big trip, or even just I hope, here's what I hope my big trip is in four years. Here's what I hope is my great adventure in eight years. Part of that, like, I want to be more open or surprised by life than that planning allows.

B (19:17)

Yeah, well, that's fun. So do it. But you could A, do that or B, you could do both. These are not mutually exclusive. You could still. And we should follow through and do that. Die with zero list. But you can almost look at it, just reframe. Just like anything, it's all about the frame that we take mentally on something. Like, what if you reframe to. I'm creating this knowing that 10 year future me, 20 year future me is going to look back on some of these things and chuckle. Yeah, but chuckle in a beautiful way in that. Like, it's almost like a time capsule. Right? Like you could look back at, I don't know exactly how old you are ginger, but like X year old Ginger from 2026 and say, oh, wasn't that interesting that that's what I thought I'd want to do.

A (20:04)

Brad, I'm your age. This is an easy number for you.

B (20:09)

I didn't know that in the back of my mind, but, you know, you never want to.

A (20:12)

It's okay.

B (20:13)

I feel a little sheepish that I'm 46, so I, I, even though I say it all the time now.

A (20:18)

Okay, I'm 47 now, so I guess I'm a little.

B (20:21)

Okay, well, my birthday's coming up, so we're going to be the same.

A (20:25)

Okay. But I take your point, which is there's still value in doing that kind of exercise. There's actually quite a few different things that might come from that that might be positive. And I will say one of the things that has been positive is when I was like, oh, I have to write this down. Like, I have to have an answer for Brad. It did force me to use my imagination a little bit more because I couldn't think of that many things right away. And it was actually fun to think of. Okay, well, if you really, like, take away these limitations or if you really just let yourself go wild and having thought about some of those things, I think it makes it more likely that those could happen in my life.

B (21:07)

Yeah, I agree. I want to go back to the spontaneity aspect of it, though. So talk me through. What about spontaneity appeals to you now? Do you think it's a season because you are so planned? Or is there something that either appeals to you in the future or that you are trying to overcome that you maybe haven't been as spontaneous as you'd like in your past years?

A (21:32)

Okay, couple things. One, I think I like planning trips. I think that's fun for me to like, do the research and book the things. And so there's something very simple just in recognizing I did that fun thing and that fun thing is done now for the whole year. If it's just that easy. That's part of it. But then, you know, I did have a thing happen where I just talked with Liz for the podcast. I bring that up because if you heard that episode, you heard that we giggled quite a bit in that episode. We had a good time together. And then after we stopped recording, she said, oh, you should come to Camp Fi. Like, the one that she goes to is the one that's also closest to me. And how fun. I want to go, like, see my new friend at this thing that I've been curious about, but I don't really think I can manage it based on, like, I have another trip that's the next weekend and just like, the budget is kind of set for that. So I don't know, maybe I'll do it. I probably won't. And that there's something about, like, I couldn't have planned that six months ago, really. It came just because I met this person and it seemed fun in the moment and. And I want to have a life that has room for that.

B (22:49)

Yeah, Well, I certainly get the longing for that. That is another beautiful aspect of Phi, or as you get further along the path to Phi, is time. Freedom opens up to a large degree. Right. And so obviously we could couch it as negative that you don't necessarily have the time, though it sounds like you have a lot of. Lot of trips planned and you're doing, you're doing amazingly well.

A (23:09)

I'm doing some fun stuff.

B (23:10)

But you don't have 365 days on your own schedule. Right. Like, that's just the practical reality of life right now. But beautiful thing is that's going to change in the not all too distant future, which is pretty fun.

A (23:23)

Okay, this is a nice segue actually to my next question, because this one is about work, this one is about purpose a little bit more. And I think I know your answer and I'd love to hear that, what that feels like to you personally, but I'd also like you to answer more generally for Someone who isn't in the position that you are in. So again, I'm going to give you the question and I'm going to give you a little bit of context here. So the question is, is there any way that being Phi negatively impacts our quests to find meaning? And what got me thinking about this is I know someone whose husband makes a great income and she doesn't work, but she has a lot of little side projects that she's interested in. But I've watched her flounder a bit. I see the situation. I'm like, oh, this is my dream, right? Like, have someone just fund all of my little hobbies. But when I watch her, actually what this looks like in her life is I feel like it doesn't actually feel good to her because she gets to this point of it being difficult and then she doesn't have the. There's no urgency there to try to make it work because if it fails or if it succeeds, like it's one of these hobbies that's trying to make money, it has no impact on her current life, on how her family lives. And so I get why you would abandon that thing if it's not fun anymore and you can't see how it would matter. And it makes me actually feel grateful for my job. And it makes me think about the things we talk about, about when you're on this side and you're just thinking, I can't wait to retire. I can't wait to retire. Gosh, right now I take a lot of pride in knowing that, hey, the things I do during my workday, support my family, like influence our lives and allow us to do things that even when it's hard and it's not going well, it's still meaningful to me to go forward in that work that I'm doing. When I said, I think I know your answer, like, choose fi, I know is very mission driven for you in that way. It's a job. And so I don't think you probably struggle with meaning. Maybe you do. A, I want to know if you do, and B, I want to know if this is something you have seen or that you have talked about in your circles.

B (25:54)

Yeah. This is another deeply layered question, Ginger. I'm going to try to do it justice. I guess for me, certainly the meaning is choose a fi without a doubt. So I know I'm very fortunate in that case. As I've said over the years, while it is this incredible thing, and I could have never envisioned that this lightning bolt would happen to me, in my life, it's not stress free. Again, I don't necessarily think of that as like a bug in the system. It's just part of how life works. Even in our PHI lives, like, we are going to have stress. Anybody who thinks that phi is somehow a panacea for all that ails us just doesn't understand the human condition. And you obviously know this deeply as a, as a counselor, like, there's nothing that's a panacea for the human condition. So I think if you go into FI thinking that you're going to be disappointed, I think it's just really important to know, like, yeah, it's wonderful to be FI and to have financial resources and to have time resources, but it does not mean every day is going to be unicorns and rainbows. It just doesn't work that way. We're humans, right? Like, we wake up on the wrong side of the bed or you have a bad day or you get in an argument or whatever. It may be like that kind of stuff happens. It's almost similar when we do the work ahead of time and we understand what reality is. Like with an investor policy statement we've always talked about, right? It's like you have something written down for when things go bad, right? It's like you're doing the work ahead of time because you understand that in this moment you're probably going to freak out. Like if something happened, some exogenous shock happened and the market went down 30%, like you're going to freak out and want to sell everything. I think on some levels, like understanding that FI isn't a cure all is going to help you in those moments when you're just having a down day or you're having a down week or month. And like, that's okay. So I think it's also important to say, like, FI is not about running away from a job and it's not about retiring per se. I think the lack of meaning, the lack of doing anything at its worst, at the caricature level, that's not a fulfilling life, right? Like, who wants to live that life? And I'm curious before I keep going, so you know your job as a counselor and I'm putting words in your mouth and just guessing, like, I imagine it is both deeply stressful and deeply rewarding just from the actual job. And then you talked about the rewards of supporting your family and supporting your path to FI and all these amazing things you get to do. I'm curious, once the need for more money is solved, do you think the intrinsic rewards of the job itself are enough to keep you doing it?

A (28:37)

Not with the amount of hours that I put in now. Okay, but I get what you're saying about when we talk about purpose, it is multi layered. And what I was saying was like, when that other part isn't there, when it's like, oh, this just feels really hard and it doesn't feel satisfying at the end of the day, I can still feel like, the meaning of like, oh, well, this was hard, but it's helping my kid go to summer camp. And so it's great when we have those things that are within themselves are satisfying and provide meaning. Right. But in the example of this gal, I know it's sort of like when that's not there, if there's not even that other piece of like, well, at least I'm, you know, paying off my house or whatever.

B (29:24)

No, I get that. And so, right. Two things. First, at the hours I'm working was your response, which is. And my natural response to that is nothing says when you reach five that you have to work the same number of hours you currently do. Like, if you genuinely love being a counselor, like, and you want to do it for. I'm putting words in your mouth again of like, if this even possible. But I imagine it would be if you wanted to work for eight hours a week and you got fulfillment out of that, then great. If you found 16 hours or 12 or whatever it is. I think when we remove. Just like you were saying, thinking big for the Daiwa zero. Like, I think we need to remove constraints and think big on, like, what our five life looks like. Because I think it's easy to just fall into ruts of like, it's 0 or 1. It's either exactly how it is or I'm out. And, like, that is just not the case. I think there are so many opportunities for people to keep doing work that they find rewarding and productive in some way, but do it on their own terms and where they add unique value. So I think that's almost an aside, but I think it's a really important aside as far as this woman that, you know, that's tough. Ginger. I think if we're honest with ourselves, like, she's just dabbling in hobbies and she doesn't have a mission. So I think it's probably more. And I don't know her, and I'm taking wild stab at this, but, like, I suspect it's much more that she's just kind of playing around. She found her thing and she's just not doing it because she doesn't need money. I think when you find your thing. Yeah, I spend a lot of time on choose a vi. A lot of time. Like, is it easy every second? No, it's not. But like, I think it's really valuable. I'd like to believe I'm going to look back when I'm 80 or 90 and say, like, damn, that really made a mark, you know? And even just something like this health app that I talked about in passing, like, neither Aaron nor I need money at this time. But like I said, we're not doing it to make money. But like, we found something that we want to create in the world and it's really fun. We're having a blast just putting this thing together. And naturally she's the computer coder. She's doing most of the work on it, but it's just fun to dream. It's fun. And we're spending. She's certainly spending a whole bulload of time on it. And I think when you find the thing, I don't know that money necessary, at least for me. Money doesn't have to be the driver. I think that's just what we're so used to. And I think that's why a lot of people get caught up with the like, oh, I can't imagine not working anymore when I reach five, or like, or non fi people like, how could you retire early? What are you going to be bored? And it's like, it's such a lack of imagination. Like, you're telling me out of like the tens of billions of things you could do with your 112 waking hours a week, that, like, that job that you've done for the last 30 years is the highest use of your life. Like, I just find that so preposterously unlikely. Like, it's a lack of imagination. It's just a cop out. It's kind of pathetic, frankly, because we're viewed as the irresponsible ones. When you only get one life and when you're wasting it doing something that just because you happen to have done it for the last 10, 20, 30 years. Like, I'm kind of sick and tired of that line of reasoning. I just, I find it ridiculous.

A (32:39)

I love this because you have talked about this framing before about, hey, you want to keep working? Is it literally the best thing that you can imagine doing? That always stuck with me because I think you're right. I think there's wisdom in that that makes me think about one of My questions I had for you, but may that is the answer. And that is what is something you believe about five that makes people uncomfortable? Or what if you said it? And I think this is one of those. It doesn't seem that controversial, but when you hear other people talk about retirement, they're very careful to say, if you want to keep working at your job, then that is okay. And of course it is okay. But it is the thing that I think people talk about in this very conservative way. And so it really struck me when you were like, you can't think of one thing better to do then go to your job? What do you think of that question? What do you believe about fi that makes people uncomfortable?

B (33:37)

The cool thing about this particular episode is I think this is going to be one where people want to comment. The nice thing is now we have comments available on our new platform for all of these episodes. So, easiest way. So you're listening to this. Just go to choose a com and then the episode number. There's a reasonable likelihood this one might be like 596, 97, 98, something like that. So choose a comm slash 596 and it'll take you directly to the page where you can make comments. If you haven't signed up for one of your local groups yet, you just create an account in like 30 seconds and then you can comment. So, Ginger, what would be cool is if people literally answered each one of your questions. I. I suspect there's going to be dozens or hundreds of comments on this, but that's definitely one of them. So it's frustrating, right? Because, like, I do believe with the answer that I've said hundreds of times, which is if you want to stay in your job, you can. But if you want to stand on your head, you can. You know, like, if you want to walk backwards through Iowa, you can. Like, you can do anything you want. I don't have an issue, like, I'm never going to sit here as some guru telling you what you can and can't do. But, yeah, if you ask me in my heart of hearts, like, like, is it plausible that a significant percentage of any community or the world has just by sheer happenstance, fallen backwards into the highest use of their lives by when they found a job at 24 or they picked a college major at 19, like, do I think it's plausible? I don't. I think it's preposterous, if you ask me, gun to my head. Should most people stay in their job in some way after they reach fi. My answer is absolutely no. The undercurrent of your question was, be a little bit saucy here. And, yeah, like, I'm certainly going to be a little saucy. Like, let's be honest with ourselves. Like, you could do anything in the world. You have money, you have freedom, and you're telling me you're going to do the same thing you've done for the last 30 years? Come on, give me a break. You get one life and you're going to waste it doing something like, there is not a person who has reached fi. Essentially, we can round to zero. I'm sure you could find a person. But we can round to zero on the number of people who reach FI and are like, oh, I'm bored. I'm going to go back to work. We look at each other. Aaron and I look at each other, and friends of mine who have reached phi look at each other. Like, how did I ever work? I can't even imagine. I don't have enough time in the day as it is. And I have 112 waking hours to do whatever I want. Every single one of those hours is under my control. Ginger and I run out of hours. I mean, they're fantastic hours, let's be clear. But, like, I've got all these things I want to do to imagine that I would do some job just because I did it previously or even that I was good at it. Like, I don't want to do that anymore with the tens of billions of options, like the counterfactual thing, right? Like, you have every other option in the world. The chance of you having picked the one is zero. Right. You round to zero.

A (36:42)

Okay, I'll add a little complexity to this, because the truth is, when you really look at why people do this, the scenario isn't, I'll keep working at my job. I'll just go part time. Except now I'll do it for free. We have to maybe think about how part of that equation is, I'll go part time and that that will open up stuff in my life and I'll still get a paycheck. I'll be able to pad my.

B (37:07)

But why do you need it?

A (37:08)

Well, sure, but that is part of it. Like, oh, well, then I could do more. I could make sure I get the Airbnb with the nice bed or, you know, the. Just the feelings of safety. And I know that we've talked about that a lot. I do think that's part of it. Right? Like, people aren't saying, yeah, I'M gonna stay at my job, and now I'm gonna do it for free. Right. Because there are other things you could do for free that would be better. It's. If I do this, and I'm so good at sacrificing, I've been doing it my whole life, then I do get this little prize right alongside it. That feels good.

B (37:46)

Yeah. I mean, we're hardwired for scarcity and to be scared, to run from scarcity and to be scared and conservative. So I get it. Obviously, it's deeply human. Right. We both know that. But maybe if we say it enough times and if I do it in a kind of sarcastic, saucy way, like, maybe it'll get through to people. If you've run your numbers. Right. And most likely you're already being conservative because that's just kind of the way it is. Because, again, scarcity and scared, you're gonna be okay. And if you're not, you're not gonna run like a lemming off a hill into zero dollars and eating cat food. There's no world where your future is eating cat food. It's just not.

A (38:32)

So end of the episode.

B (38:36)

Perfect title of the episode. I like it.

A (38:38)

All right, well, I'll add something to it.

B (38:40)

Yeah, I love it. I was going to ask you.

A (38:41)

Of course, I like the comfort of just this person. I respect saying you're not going to eat cat food. Great. I will add something else to this conversation in case it's helpful to someone else. So I just got back from Economy and one of the breakout sessions, which, unfortunately, I don't think those are recorded. So I'll tell you what happened in it because you won't be able to find it online. But it was Frank Vasquez talking about this idea of forecasting. The way he put it that I thought was so useful is he said, okay, we're. We're piling on conservative upon conservative assumption in here. And you think that by doing that, you are protecting yourself and you are getting a, like a conservative, safer number. And he said, what you're actually getting is a really inaccurate number. And that really hit me. Right. And then he sort of showed with these numbers, like, how off. How wildly off you can be when you are, like, fudging 1% here and you're saying, oh, and I'll make sure my withdrawal is just a tiny bit lower. Right. And when you do these things, sort of compounded or added together, they are wildly inaccurate. And so thinking that makes you take stock a little in terms of, oh, I'm not just being safe, but I'm being like, incorrect.

B (39:57)

Yes.

A (39:58)

And that's, I think, one way to kind of think logically through that thing you're talking about.

B (40:03)

Yeah, I like that. And I think it was Aubrey Williams who said that 100% success rate when we run our numbers in projection lab or something means actually it's a hundred percent that you over saved. That's just, again, maybe if we say these things often enough, it drills into people's heads. Your numbers are almost certainly already too conservative. So the likelihood of your phi number failing again, barring some crazy zombie apocalypse, which we can't account for anyway, it's just so slim. You're doing it because you're scared. We have to grow up and understand that again, we are human. I'm just. Without a doubt, but, but on some level we have to grow up Ginger and like, how many things are we going to do with our one precious life and not do because we're scared? You know, this was my whole issue and you know, you asked me that question five minutes ago of like, what are the things that I disagree with? And like, you know, I went ballistic about this nonsense middle class trap thing that Scott and Mindy have been talking about over at BiggerPockets money for a while. And like, it's the same thing. It's like it's feeding into people's fears. I think the antidote to that is talking about having people like Frank and Aubrey and hopefully me on a less technical level, like, you're gonna be fine. The likelihood that you have screwed this up is so slim because again, we've seen thousands of people, tens of thousands of people, be overly conservative. You have Frank, who's a genius, he's the smartest person I've ever met. Say you can have a 5% withdrawal rate, most likely if you have the right assortment of different investments and such. But like ultimately this middle class trap thing was like, it was just feeding into people's scarcity and being scared and that because they in one YouTube poll basically said they wouldn't be able to pull money out of their retirement accounts or their accounts, period, when they reach fi, because they would find it uncomfortable. You're grasping defeat from the jaws of victory. You have won. When you reach fi, you have won. You've won the game. You've won the game of life. You have absolutely won. And you're telling me because you're going to be uncomfortable for 60 seconds when you log into Fidelity and click Sell $5,000 to cover your expenses that month or $4,000 or whatever it is, because you think you're going to be uncomfortable for 60 seconds that FI doesn't work, or somehow this is a bill of goods, or somehow you need some magical other form of income. When your forebears in the FI community have vetted this, they've thought about it, they've done it themselves, and they've proven to you that it works. Like, because you're going to be uncomfortable, you think it doesn't work. It's so ridiculous. I mean, Ginger, you know, humans have to do hard things. Like, you can't live in 72°, hermetically sealed bubbles, eating sugary, fatty foods all the time and sitting on a couch watching TV for 16 hours a day. Like, that's an easy life. There's no hardship. But does that lead to a successful life? No, it doesn't. I'm building, like, a kind of ridiculous thing, but, like, it's going to be uncomfortable the first time you log in and you sell. But you get over it because you're an adult and you've won. You have to do hard things. Like. I don't know how to say it, like, who gets contentment from just doing easy things all the time? Sometimes you have to lean into discomfort. It's like, it's part of life. It's part of succeeding at life.

A (43:32)

This makes me think of what I was saying at the beginning about how I didn't know what was going to happen. And I didn't know when I. When I asked Brad, like, what uncomfortable thing do you believe about fi that Brad was going to say, like, grow up, y'. All.

B (43:47)

Interesting. You did not think that, right?

A (43:49)

I did not think that.

B (43:50)

Yeah. No. How could you?

A (43:52)

Okay, I want to transition into more of a personal question, and then you can say, knock it off if you don't want to answer it. Okay. Okay. But something you have been semi open about on the podcast is that you have struggled with anxiety. And I wonder how you would feel about telling us sort of where you're at with that now and if that's still something that is a part of your life, what things you do to mitigate those symptoms.

B (44:25)

Yeah. Okay. That's a great question, and I am happy to talk about it. So just to be clear, I've never been diagnosed with anything. It's just an internal sense, I think. Certainly over the years, I have stressed about, and I even talked about this recently with Alan and Katie Donegan, where the disastrous, I guess, real estate speculation, which is what it ultimately was that I, that I did caused me to lose sleep for 10 plus years. You know, I have this internal narrative of, you know, how could you be so stupid? How could you do something like, you know, like all these, all these things. And I would say I'm in a much better place now but this very month and you couldn't have known this like I, I'm feeling dramatically better than I ever have before. I'm just trying to do a lot of, of self care things and for me that looks a lot like not over taxing myself. It's like when I feel that agitated internal state coming on. It'll be all right, it's time to lie down. I actually have this acupressure mat, the Naoya acupressure mat. This thing costs like, I think it's like $40 now. And, and Tim Ferriss sent this out in his five bullet Friday like 10 years ago. And I bought this thing and it looked kind of preposterous at the time, but it's almost like thousands of these tiny little plastic like needles if you will. It's almost like acupuncture but it's just acupressure because you basically just lie on it. And I found that when I lie on this thing for 20, 30 plus minutes I just have this nervous system calmness and especially when I pair that with some type of meditation. So I've been doing yoga nidra so it's like Andrew Huberman has reframed this as non sleep deep rest. He calls it nsdr but you can just google yoga nidra meditation and then 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes and there's a bunch of really good YouTube videos. And when I pair that with those two things together, it's just this nervous system reset. So every morning now when I wake up, I lay on this mat for sometimes like an hour. I'll listen to podcasts. I'm learning Japanese again so I'll listen to my pimsleur Japanese while laying on this thing. It just really helps. And I think another thing that I've found, and these are kind of tactical answers but I think they're probably applicable to a lot of people is like being outside has helped me dramatically down to the sun. So just this week alone we live in a four story townhome in this walkable community. So our fourth floor is basically like just a rooftop patio almost or rooftop deck, I don't know what you'd call it. We'll call it a rooftop and we have some lounge chairs up there. So I've been spending 30 to 60 minutes easy just out there reading the last handful of days. And interestingly, I've noticed I just feel so much better mentally than I've felt in a really long time. And I look for triggers. And again, this is kind of almost getting into maybe a little bit too deep, but my own anxiety triggers. And, like, I can feel it sometimes coming on. Like, I get a feeling in my chest, so I know when I feel that. Or I start ruminating like, I was driving with my daughter Molly a couple days ago. And, like, I'm a pretty good driver. I very rarely make mistakes. And I. I just made one silly mistake. There was nothing. Luckily, it was no danger. But, like, I had a sense this was going to be something that was going to lead to, like, me berating myself when I got home. I'm like, you know what I told Aaron? I'm like, I just had this thing happen. I'm going to go lay down on my mat and do a meditation. And I did. I felt great afterwards. And of course, again, counterfactual. You never know what would have happened had I not. I might have just been fine. But it was just knowing the trigger and just trying to get ahead of it. So I think the short answer is, I'm in a pretty good place right now.

A (48:18)

Yeah. Hearing you say, okay, I'm doing a lot better now. And then my question was like, okay, well, what are you actively doing to try to work on those symptoms? And you said, so many of the things that are the things that help. Right. And so I think it is really powerful to hear you say, it doesn't matter that you don't have a anxiety diagnosis. Right. That you are able to kind of do that work of saying, hey, I looked at what those things are that make me feel this way. I recognize how that felt in my body. When that happens, I have a plan. And then you consistently do those activities that we know help with people's anxiety. Right. Like getting outside, getting exercise, getting different kinds of exercise. I know you're really good, too, about connecting with other people. That's useful for people to hear.

B (49:07)

Yeah, that's great. I appreciate that. And yeah, of course, I left out the exercise. I think I'm. I'm doing a lot of easily three times a week of strength training, which I think it just clears your mind. The neurochemicals that it promotes are really good for you. So I think it's just about doing the work and also doing the personal work of what you think will help you it does come back to the basics. Sleep is really important. It's hard to have a great day when you don't sleep well. It just is. Eating well and exercise, getting out in the sun, or taking walks. We take two 30 minute walks a day. That's fantastic. We're moving our bodies, we're getting some sun. Or frankly, on days when it's not nice, we're out there too. It's 20 degrees in January. We're throwing on some extra clothes and taking a walk. Don't just sit inside. It all has kind of added up to something pretty great. I mean, honestly, Ginger, thank you for asking. That's not something I would normally talk about or feel comfortable talking about, but, yeah, you made that easy.

A (50:01)

Speaking of exercise, do you remember many months ago when I said I might do a Spartan race?

B (50:08)

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

A (50:09)

I'm doing it.

B (50:10)

Ooh, awesome. Tell me about it.

A (50:13)

I am signed up for the Boise Spartan Sprint in August. It's gonna be hot. Yeah. And so I'm changing my exercise now a little bit to sort of help meet those goals.

B (50:27)

Tell everybody what a Spartan race is.

A (50:29)

Yeah. A Spartan race is an obstacle course for adults, basically. So you don't know exactly what the obstacles are gonna be. I think there's 20. There's around 20. And so it's things like carrying this really heavy ball this distance or climbing this wall. I did one other one, and those were the ones that were really hard for me because I'm a little bit scared of heights and that you had to go quite high or doing different things that require a lot of hand grip. That's something I need to work on because I don't have great hand grip. But it's just like this wild, very hard, adult, fun race.

B (51:04)

That sounds cool.

A (51:05)

I wanted to bring it up because I wanted to end on maybe kind of a fun question, which was just, what are you looking forward to?

B (51:13)

I'm looking forward to summer. Yeah. Sometimes it could just be little. Right. The cool things about having the sun out this last handful of days, it's been glorious here in Richmond. So again, we're recording this towards the end of March. So this is like March 20th or thereabouts to today is the 25th. I've just been outside a ton. I just can't wait to lay outside and then go in the pool. Swimming is one of my absolute favorite things to do in the whole world. Just the thought of having our community pool open and where we live now, there's a big pool, which is great. Yeah. Just Getting out there, relaxing, enjoying the pool, enjoying the sun, basking in it. And I think it's always like, the easy answer is to talk about trips, and I can definitely do that. As we're recording this, I'm getting set two weeks from today. We're going to Japan. So Aaron and I are going for three weeks and we're getting to see Eddie Vedder from Pearl Jam in concert in Kyoto, which should be amazing. And we're gonna do some of the Kumano Kodo.

A (52:14)

You are?

B (52:15)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.

A (52:16)

Oh, my gosh. I can't wait to hear about it.

B (52:18)

Yeah. So we're gonna do that walk and you know, between villages and such, it's gonna be fantastic. And just a whole bunch of little inns, the ryokans and little villages. So we're not gonna spend a ton of time in Kyoto or Tokyo, but it should just be a really great trip. And then I haven't done a roller coaster trip with my daughter Anna for a couple years now, which is actually hard to believe. It's last couple years have flown by and we're thinking about we're almost certainly going to do one in May, right before her high school graduation. So, you know, seasons of life also. Right. She's going to college in August. Yeah. Not that this is the last time we can ever do a roller coaster trip because certainly she'll get vacations and holidays in summer, etc. But, you know, it's kind of one last hurrah with her as a kid. So. Yeah, that should be really fun.

A (53:05)

Yeah.

B (53:06)

What are you looking forward to? I suspect it's going to be trip related, but more broadly, are there any things non trip related that jump out to you that you're super excited about?

A (53:16)

Well, I'm also really excited for summer. And at the end of every summer, I'm like, so overwhelmed by my garden. I can't wait for this to be done. But then by the time spring comes, I can't wait to go get my seeds and get going. And so Spokane is lovely in the summer. It's wonderful.

B (53:34)

Nice.

A (53:35)

And so just that change of season will be great.

B (53:38)

That sounds pretty lovely. I like it.

A (53:41)

All right, well, let's go ahead and wrap this up and let's end on that reminder that you can post your own answers to these questions in the app. What are we calling it on the platform?

B (53:54)

Yeah, Jonathan and I are struggling with this. There's an app, but you don't have to use the app. You can just log in at the website on your regular browser, just go to choose a vi.com login and you can create an account there really easily. Or again, another shortcut way for this particular episode. Just go to choose a. Com and then the three digit episode number. So it's probably something like 596. It's really obvious right there at the bottom for comments and hopefully you're going to see dozens or hundreds of these comments of people chiming in. And Ginger, you and I will be in there for sure answering things. I might be in Japan when this goes live, but I promise I'll hop in when we get back. And the other fun thing again, because it's a living document, is you and I can also think a little more about our answers. Like I suspect they're going to be a couple that I'm going to kick myself that I want to add to. So don't be surprised to see my answers get updated there as well.

A (54:51)

There you go. Well, thank you Brad, for being so willing to engage with this experiment and to share your real answers with us.

B (55:00)

I really appreciate it and thank you

A (55:02)

all for listening and we'll catch you next time.