← ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast
ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast
Getting Personal with Personal Finance: Brad & Ginger | Ep 533
01:03:42
Ginger interviews Brad as they delve into the personal side of financial independence, focusing on the real struggles and triumphs behind the scenes of ChooseFI. The conversation emphasizes the importance of relatability and the idea that financial...
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- [00:00]
Brad Barrett
Hey, it's Brad. Before we get started with the episode, I wanted to pass along some incredibly exciting news in the Choose a Buy world. As we talked about on a previous episode, Jonathan has spent the last couple of years building something incredible and we actually just rolled it out. This is our brand new Choose a five member site. It's obviously entirely free to sign up for. We're hoping this will take the place of our Facebook groups, both for the main Facebook group and especially for our local groups. So how this is going to work, you just go to our main homepage, choosefi.com and and you will see front and center, register, sign up for an account log in. It's really, really easy. We made it as simple as possible. So right now, Jonathan is building this in public. Every single day he posts an update with the 20 or 30 things that he updated from the last day that people reported that. Hey, I want to see this. I'd love to see this new feature. How can we do this? This is the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance website and community. We finally built it. We've dreamed of this since 2017, and we finally have the technology. We are not beholden to Facebook anymore. We can actually send out events and you will get emailed notification of it. So it's not just the 1%. If you get lucky, that Facebook shows you the notification. Now, for your local groups, when you sign up, you tag, hey, I'm a member of this local group. And when your admin sets up an event, you will get email notified. So you can't possibly miss it.
- [01:22]
Ginger
This.
- [01:22]
Brad Barrett
This is so exciting. We already have thousands upon thousands of people that signed up just in the first three days, and I expect there to be tens of thousands before very long. So I wanted to jot this off before the episode started. Go to choosefi.com, our main homepage, and sign up for an account today.
- [01:40]
Jonathan
Hi, everybody, this is Ginger. Today I'm here with Brad Barrett, the proper host of Choose Fi. Brad and I have obviously talked to each other a lot on the podcast, and if you're an avid listener, you know quite a few things about him already. You know that he likes roller coasters and board games and Taylor Swift. And you know that he, while he prioritizes time with his daughters and his health, there's nothing he loves more than todoist. Hoping we can keep that in. Brad is a bit of a celebrity. I've seen it, how much people want to talk to him and how much people admire him. But of course, when we really Admire someone, they start to seem like a different thing, like a different kind of human, one we can't really relate to and one whose advice feels too strange because, again, different. Not like me. So today my goal is to go a little deeper with Brad. To talk about personal finance, of course, but the parts we don't usually talk about what's been hard and what keeps being hard. I hope it's a useful conversation to you all, and I'm really looking forward to it and honored that Brad was open to such a chat. And with that. Welcome to Choose Fi. Brad Ginger, I know this is not the first time that you have been interviewed, but I wonder how it feels today after listening to my opening.
- [03:07]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, that intro was incredible. And I love the word proper. The proper host. I mean, listen, you're my co host at this point, so we can call you the proper host as well. But yeah, you know, it's interesting because I think one of the reasons why Choose a VI has been so popular, or at least I'd like to believe is because I'm. I'm kind of relatable and I don't hold myself out as an expert, but I do know there is that kind of weird separation sometimes. And even though I try for it not to be there. And like you said, you've seen me at a live event and it's. It's an interesting thing that, you know, people come up to me and just want to tell me how. How important this podcast has been in their lives and. Yeah, even so many years later. So we're recording this on basically, like the eighth anniversary of Choose a Pie. So eight full years of doing this, and it has been the single most extraordinary thing of my life. Like, I. I love doing this podcast. Like, I have come to that conclusion, especially over these last couple of months of my, quote unquote, mini retirement. And it just, on some level, it feels like it is my highest purpose on this earth. I just love doing this, and I can't describe it. I know over the last couple of years I've been. Maybe complaining is a bit of an exaggeration, but I've been lamenting some of the frustrations with Shoes of I. And that's just. It's my own fault. I let it. I let it happen. I let some of it overrun my life. And responding to emails and feeling like I should do this and should do that, and I kind of lost sight of just how remarkable this is. And I'm vowing to you today to never lose sight of that again. I Mean, I get to sit here with a $70 microphone and talk into it from this random little bedroom in Richmond, Virginia, and get to make a mark on the world. And I've spoken to millions of people, and, like, it's an extraordinary thing. It's truly extraordinary. And, yeah, I never want to lose sight of that. But I think hopefully we'll. People know, I think, and we'll maybe find out a little more today that, like, I'm just a regular guy. I mean, I'm just a regular suburban dad at this point, you know, to two amazing daughters and just living a normal life. And that's actually one of the most interesting parts about this. It's like this bizarro universe where I'm like this Brad from Choose a Vi, but then just regular old guy here in Richmond who. It's. It's. It's interesting.
- [05:28]
Jonathan
Yeah, I hear you when you say you've really made effort to share that you're like a normal person. And yet I think it is just this human thing where we start to feel, ultimately we start to objectify this other person, right. We make them into this thing that is so far removed from what a person is and that there's nothing you can do about it, like you. The other person. And there's a way in which it's really hard for me, a listener, to do anything about it. Right. Like, I think that's just a natural thing, you know, when we hear someone that we admire. But I know I've shared this before, but one of the things that was really appealing to me when I started listening early on, right? And that's happening. And it was like, oh, it's fun to listen to these two guys, but it's not like what they're talking about has a lot of relevance to my life because they're just these two fun, interesting people who are very different. And you kept saying, you would say it over and over again. You would just say, like, we're just these ordinary people. And I remember it took, like, the eighth time you said that. And then when you said it, I actually heard you say it the eighth time. And that was when I really, like, went all in with Choose Fi. Because then I was like, oh, yeah. Like, I really got it that this is, like, a normal person, and I'm a normal person, and I can do things. Like, he has done things. And it, you know, it reminds me so much of parenting, where it's like, you have to say things a hundred times, and you just have to be okay with that. You Just have to be like, like hey, we pick up our toys at this time and they just are not going to get it until the hundredth time. And I feel like that's, that's something the same about like adults are the same way where the first times we hear things we just, we don't take it in, in the same way. And so I always appreciated that you reiterated over and over again like we're not doing something extraordinary in a way. You know, it's something that's available to other people.
- [07:26]
Brad Barrett
Yeah. And I think it's so important. Right. Nobody wants to hear from some world class expert. Like that's not, it doesn't resonate like for me and really my whole story has been a story of first of traditional fi and then entrepreneurship, but really all the entrepreneurship has been just like, hey, I'm a regular guy, I'm just maybe a step or two ahead. And I've spent a lot of time researching X. Right. So it was like at first it was travel rewards and going to Disney World and I knew there were millions of people like me out there who would want to do that. And like I can cut through the noise or like with choose a pie. Like what was so cool, I think at the beginning with me and Jonathan is we really were so different. And like some people saw themselves in me, some people saw themselves in Jonathan. Undoubtedly many people saw themselves in our guests who came on and told their story. And it was like if you could just find that one person that was like you, maybe you could believe that you could do this too because. Right. Like at the end of the day I don't think what we're doing, I think it, what we're doing ultimately leads to an extraordinary life. But I don't think it's like extraordinary inputs that get there. It's these small inputs, it's ginger. We've talked about it so many times, right. It's the, the aggregation of marginal gains. It's these 1% changes that really add up to something extraordinary. And, and when you make dozens and then eventually Hundreds of these 1% changes, your life is radically transformed. And you can't imagine a world where you hadn't made those changes, you hadn't learned or grown, you hadn't done any of these things. So yeah, and I do this, listen, like I do this with, you know, Tim Ferriss is the one who I've listened to for years, over a decade now and, and his book the four Hour Work Week transformed my life. But like I know from listening to him he's just a regular guy. He's a regular guy from Long Island, New York, which. Which I am too. And, like, he always talks about his problems and his. And the things going on and things that he's working on and the challenges that he faces. And, like, I think that actually endears me to him in a sense that, like, he's not trying to stand up there as, like, I'm this infallible person. He's just a regular guy, and he's trying to experiment to make his life better. And I think that's kind of the ethos that I've always taken with this is, hey, we're all just figuring this out. We're all figuring out life. We're all figuring out fi. We all do stupid things from time to time. Whether for me, it was this horrible land speculation in North Carolina way back in 2005, or freaking out when Covid hit and wondering if I should sell everything, even though I just spent the last, you know, three years of my life telling everybody, have an investor policy statement and don't do this and don't do that. Right? Like, your brain still goes crazy. It's still a lizard brain trying to keep you safe. And I think that's like, that's actually the good stuff, Ginger. That's not like, it doesn't mean I'm a fraud. It means I'm a human. And I think that's really important. And I think it's important for all of us to know, like, it's okay to be human. It's okay to make mistakes. Like, it's just about, as I like to say, it's about being directionally accurate. Like on a long enough timeline, on a 10, 20, 30, 50 year timeline. Like, am I trying to live a better life? Am I getting better at life? Am I making the right decisions? Not every time, but over that 50 year time period. Like, that's the kind of game I'm playing.
- [10:38]
Jonathan
Yeah. That reminds me of another moment that was really important to me. You had shared that you had, like, started some little business about fire. Something, some accessory.
- [10:52]
Brad Barrett
Yeah. Firewood storage racks. Wow.
- [10:54]
Jonathan
There it is. There it is. And you told it in like, this bigger. With this bigger arc of like, hey, I've tried these little things, right? And that's me. And the way that I interpreted it for myself, right? Like, I'm always like, kind of trying a little thing and they don't go anywhere. And I always interpreted that as like, oh, like, you're kind of a loser. Not that harshly, but you Know, like, oh, you can't get these things off the ground. There's something wrong with the fact that you're even trying. Right. Because this is just, like, not the path for you. Like, go do your. Go do your normal job. But then when I heard it in your story, I felt really differently. I thought, oh, wait, I'm that kind of person. And that kind of person is, like, on a creative journey. And this is part of my creative journey. And so it gave me a lot of confidence in terms of, like, of course, anyone who is successful now has these things that they've tried in the past that were not successful. Right. And that is so obvious to say it now, but when you hear that from somebody who is where you want to be, it's so much more impactful. And so even now, like, I feel emotional even saying that because it makes me think about how I view those things so differently now and how I view my own little projects that I do now. Like, I don't think that whether they succeed or fail says something about my success as a human being. I think if it fails or it succeeds, it's both evidence for I'm this kind of person. And that's kind of an interesting person. Right. Like, I like that about myself. So it was really powerful to me to hear you talk about a failure.
- [12:40]
Brad Barrett
Yeah. And a lot of failures. Let's be clear, Ginger. There were a lot of failures. I mean, like, I'm an overnight success. Ten years and ten failures, and probably more in the making. It's funny because, yeah, you can look at people and say, oh, wow, look at them. But, yeah, if you could imagine me sitting there working on firewood-rack.net and like, fire pit mart and soccer tools.com and the house reference.com and all these ridiculous, ridiculous, horrible things. But I learned, and like you said, like, I'm the type of person that, like, that's kind of a cool way to look at life is. You know what? Like, I never looked at any of those as failures. They took a lot of time. And. Yeah. Do I wish that they were successful? Do I wish that they brought in money? Yeah, I suppose so. I certainly, at the time, I did. But none of the good things that came after would have been possible without those failures. So were they really failures or was it just part of the process? Was it part of, hey, wow. I eventually built Travel Miles 101 and choose a VI, which for a while Travel Miles 101 was. Was a real player in the travel reward space. And then I started Choose a VI and put all my attention there, and then obviously, Choose a Vi has become really the preeminent part of the fight community. And it's just. It's wild to see that. But, you know, Ginger, I think, like, to me. To me, this whole thing, and frankly, I don't know if I've ever been this explicit. But, like, the trojan horse behind Shuza 5 for me is, like, to get people to think more clearly. Like, that's actually what I secretly hope in my heart of hearts comes out of. Listening to this podcast is, like, for you, the listener, whoever that is, like, to just be able to, like, make slightly better decisions, to think through things more clearly. This is not about, like, the nuts and bolts of money. And I think that's why I've tried to learn as much as I can far and wide and bring that into the podcast and talk about decision making and talk about, like, how I think through things, because it's not about the granular details, like, we can never go over. Undoubtedly, there have been millions of people that have listened to this podcast over the last eight years. Like, we're not going to dive into all 2 million of those scenarios. It's impossible. We have to talk in generalities. Right? But if you are armed with that mental quiver, if you will, that enables you to think more clearly and make better decisions. I'm 100% confident that your life is going to be better. I can't foresee exactly what that means, but I'm 100% confident that your life is going to be better. And, like, I think that, to me, amidst the cacophony out there of, like, insanity in today's world and media ecosystem and horrible places like Twitter and all this other nonsense, like, I hope that on some little way, like, I'm making, like, a positive change in the world to help people maybe be a little less angry, maybe be a little less reactive, maybe have a little less stress or a lot less stress, frankly. Right. Like, if your financial situation is sorted out to a large degree, like, a lot of that anger, a lot of that stress, it just melts away. Because what do you have to be angry about? Like, everybody, they're always talking about, like, this elusive. They, like, oh, they grumble, grumble, grumble. The government. Oh, the man. You know, like, whatever. Like, I mean that in the proverbial sense, like, you don't have to, like, I'm not worried about anybody right now. There's nobody that impacts my life. And that's a pretty cool feeling. And I think that to me is the goal of fi. It's that freedom, it's that autonomy, it's that reduction of stress. And I think that's the real thing that I hope people take away from it.
- [16:14]
Jonathan
Yeah. Do you remember now? I know it's been a while, but do you remember when you first started thinking, like, I'm going to do this really differently and maybe quit my job way before anyone I know had some, like, how did you get there? Because I know that was quite a bit before you started choose fi. Right. How did that come to your brain? And do you remember that process?
- [16:41]
Brad Barrett
Yeah. You know, it's all kind of. It's all muddled together in the sense that I was always a saver, but I never knew what the purpose was. So I was saving money, I had a decent net worth. But until I found the FI community, until I found Mr. Money, much less. Let's not even. There was no FI community until I found Pete's blog. There was no purpose. Like, I wasn't doing it for anything. I was just doing it because that's what I did. Because I didn't spend money because I was maybe too frugal, you know, and. And I think, like, reading Pete's shockingly simple math behind early retirement article was just a total life changer for me. And that's why I tell everybody the starting point for FI is just get things down on paper, right? Like, get down, hey, what is my life cost? What are my assets? What is my liabilities? And therefore, what's my net worth? And then you just take what is my life cost and multiply by 25 and like, yeah, can we argue about, like, safe withdrawal rates and does it matter if it's 4% or 5% or 3.25? Like, honestly, Ginger, I don't care about that stuff at all. I genuinely don't. Like, that's for a platform outside of choose a buy, like, go to early retirement now and read Big Earns safe withdrawal. Like, I don't bother myself with that stuff because I know how transformative it can be when you just find out, like, oh, there's some math behind this, right? Like, within reason. I just take what does my life cost times 25, then it all makes sense. Like, it actually makes sense then. So that was a life changer for me. And then to your precise question, like, you know, I would love to claim that I had some grand five date in mind and I was going to ride off into the sunset, but I think I was. I was a victim of one more Year syndrome, or I would have been a victim of one more year syndrome. Because it's safe. Like, my brain. I'm an anxious person. You know, I've alluded to this a couple of times over the years. I am an anxious person. Hard stop. End of story. I always have been since I. Five years old. Like, I literally. My mom pulled up something from, like, my kindergarten teacher, and, like, you know, I've been anxious for 40 years. It's just. It's me. So I suspect I would have just kept on going. But I think, again, armed with this knowledge that there's some number there, armed with the knowledge that, hey, yeah, I've tried and failed all of these entrepreneurial ventures, but, wow, I just started something that actually works, and that was Richmond Savers and helping people go to Disney World with travel rewards points and credit card points. It was like, okay, like, I'm well on my way to fi. Like, my net worth. I'm not at 25 times, but I'm pretty close. I'm reasonably close. And what if I trusted myself? And I think that's. That's what I did. And it's very far outside my comfort zone, Ginger. To do something kind of wacky and countercultural and. And, yeah, I mean, it's almost 10 years to the day from when we're recording this. We're recording this. January 8th, 2025, basically 10 years ago, was when I put in my notice at my job that I was leaving on January 31, 2015. So, yeah, I mean, it's literally a decade ago. And, you know, I wasn't fine. I had a wife and two kids, and I was well on my path to phi. And I knew I had a lot of Runway, but I bet on myself, and that. That took. If I can pat myself on the back, that took a lot of guts, and it was not easy. There were a lot of sleepless nights. You know, that's part of my anxiety brain. And how it shows up is waking up in the middle of night and just ruminating for hours and hours and hours and hours. So that definitely happened, but. But I didn't. I pulled the trigger, and I started up that travel miles one on one site that very next day, literally the very next day, February 1, 2015. And, you know, every good thing that happened in my life happened because I made that leap. And it wasn't easy, but it was really, really essential.
- [20:23]
Jonathan
Yeah. Took a big risk.
- [20:25]
Brad Barrett
Yeah.
- [20:26]
Jonathan
Okay. How long has your household been retired? And by that, I mean you both had quit your W.2 jobs yeah, so.
- [20:34]
Brad Barrett
That'S a great question. So I left obviously, as I said, January 31, 2015. Laura was also a CPA and she by that time was definitely not working full time. She still worked tax busy season as a, literally just a tax preparer virtually. So I think she did that for a handful more years, maybe even more. It was probably 2018 or 2019 when she stopped that. I don't have the exact date. I could look it up on tax returns or something, but somewhere right in that vicinity and. But she did it because she actually enjoyed it. I think there was some mental simulation of keeping up with the business and you know, keeping up with the industry and doing some stuff and, and frankly like not being a full time stay at home mom, but in that case also being able to work and make some money, a nice bit of money for a couple of months a year. So it was like a really, it was a really good thing for her. I think it was, it was mentally rewarding for her.
- [21:39]
Jonathan
Yeah. So the reason I ask about those dates is because I want to ask you a question that everyone is curious about.
- [21:44]
Brad Barrett
Okay.
- [21:45]
Jonathan
Yeah, I think everyone's curious about because I'm always curious to hear like people's stories of like they retire and then what happens with their money.
- [21:55]
Brad Barrett
Yeah.
- [21:55]
Jonathan
And so my question for you is, since that date of like 2018 or whatever that was, have you pulled from your savings?
- [22:06]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, that's a good question. So I have not actually. And you know, it's funny because that's probably why, why you're curious is because I've never, I don't really talk about it that much, but I am in a fortunate position that, you know, these businesses that I put together do earn some income and they earn enough income to cover my life expenses. So yeah, in this weird way I have been, I guess, coast. Even though I didn't know it at the time, I was coast by all this time and maybe a little bit more because I was earning more money than I was able to save some money. So the net worth that I had in the background 10 years ago has just been compounding. And we, we all know how well the, the market's been doing since then and I have been able to save some additional money. So yeah, I mean, my net worth has grown dramatically since then. I don't have the exact number, but I mean it's, it's many multiples. You know, just again, by virtue of the stock market being absolute gangbusters over the last decade and being able to still contribute to it so it's been amazing. But yeah, on some levels, I'm like, oh, I feel like I don't feel weird or I don't feel guilty. That's not the. But it's just like, it's hard to talk about, you know, because I'm not like the stereotypical fi. But then my mind immediately pivots to but, come on, man, Nobody's the stereotypical five. Like, that's actually the fun part about five is like, I know fleetingly few people who just retire on X day, and then the very next day they make zero for the rest of their lives. Like, I can think of almost zero people that have done that. So I shouldn't feel guilty. But like, on some level, on some level, it would actually be more interesting as a story, right? To be able to tell everybody like, hey, this is in granular detail what I'm doing. But yeah, I'm just not in that spot. So that's why, you know, I bring on people to talk about. I bring on people like Fritz from Retirement Manifesto to talk about his bucket strategy or whatever, because someday I'm going to have to do that. Obviously, like, Choose a Pie is not going to be around forever. I'm not going to be making money from choose the five forever. So it's coming and I, you know, I need to learn about it for sure.
- [24:11]
Jonathan
Yeah. I asked that question because. Well, because I'm curious, but also because I have heard that so much from people in the space where they have this plan. And I know this isn't exactly what you're saying, but they have this plan about what it's going to look like, and then what you hear from them three years later is, actually, I haven't pulled from any of those accounts.
- [24:31]
Brad Barrett
Right.
- [24:31]
Jonathan
So I wonder, do you chalk that up more to, hey, my businesses have taken off or been really successful or more to, we've really worked hard to keep our expenses down, you know, and maybe there's a balance of those things.
- [24:46]
Brad Barrett
Yeah. Yeah, that is an interesting question. So in my particular case, it's definitely that the businesses have made enough to cover our expenses. And I mean, honestly. And I've. I've talked about this a lot over the last couple years is I've gotten much less frugal over the last handful of years. And I think probably less than that if. If I'm. If I'm fair. But certainly the last two or three years, and it's not like we're going wild with spending. I mean, I'm not. I'm not Making that kind of money, let's be clear. But I think when you have outsized market returns and you have some money coming in, you realize, I think my tendency is to be too conservative with money at the expense of living a great life.
- [25:27]
Jonathan
Yeah.
- [25:27]
Brad Barrett
And I think one of the biggest positive changes that I've made in my life is to loosen the purse strings a little bit over the last couple years and just realize that life is finite. And being frugal, I think has a massive purpose generally. And certainly at the beginning of your fi journey. There is no two ways about it. And that's part of my fear about talking about this sometimes. Ginger, honestly, is like, because now I'm spending more and I'm going to Taylor Swift concerts in London with my daughters or going on these roller coaster trips, albeit I'm still doing them very frugally. I'm still using Hyatt points. When Anna and I go, like, we have our own routine in our Hyatt places or Hyatt houses, and we use rewards points to try, like. But still, it costs money. Let's be perfectly clear. But those are life experiences we're never going to never regret. There is no world where I'm going to look back 50 years from now on my deathbed and say, oh, I shouldn't have taken Anna to Texas for four days to go to three different amusement parks because it costs us a couple hundred bucks. Like, there is no world. The only world will be, wow, I wish I did five times that number, you know. But again, that's like, it's not to say that frugality doesn't have its place, because I think if that's the message that comes across or has come across for me the last couple years, like, that's a deep regret of mine because frugality is really important. And just being a valueist, which is what I've always termed myself, is like, I don't just spend freely. I spend on what I value. And I think that reframe kind of helped me a lot. So, yeah, I don't know if I necessarily answered your question fully, but. But yeah, I'm definitely. I guess that's kind of where I am. But if you have any follow ups, let me know.
- [27:08]
Jonathan
Well, I like how you talked about it there. It's a shift that I've had in my thinking around, you know, we think a lot about, hey, if I don't save enough, there's a real risk that I could run out of money. Right. Or that I could have some real problems as I get older. But there's also a real risk of wasting your life. And that part we don't talk about or we don't think about in the same way. There's some way where we don't think about how not making those memories. Like there is a risk. Right. Because we are going to run out of time. And so it is an important kind of work. I know what you're saying. You don't want the frugal piece to get pushed out because it's so, hey, you know what we really need to not run out of money. But we all know that already. That's all over our culture and we know that part. But this other part about I'm not going to get my 40s back, I'm not going to get this time of my child's life back, and I am at risk of wasting it if I am focusing too much on making sure some number reaches some magic goalpost.
- [28:21]
Brad Barrett
Yeah. And you know, I think the one non renewable resource is our time and our lives. And yeah, you just can't waste it. You can't wish it away for another day.
- [28:35]
Jonathan
Yeah.
- [28:35]
Brad Barrett
And I think a lot of us who maybe are predisposed to delayed gratification might do that a little bit too much where we push it off, we push it off, we push it off. But if you combine delayed gratification with a little bit too conservative with a little bit of one more year syndrome, you wake up and you're 60 and you didn't do all those things and you can't get back your 30s, 40s and 50s. And it's not to say obviously by no means is life over at 60. I'm not arguing that at all. You still have plenty of good years. But pick any, any age and then take the prior 20 years. If you just wished it away just to get some number in a spreadsheet, like that's not a recipe for a happy life. It's not a recipe for a successful life. It's just isn't. Regardless of what your net worth is, your net worth will never make you happy. It'll make your life better, but it will never, ever, ever make your life happy. It's just not the way we're wired. It really isn't.
- [29:32]
Jonathan
So is it fair, having gotten that background now from you, to say, do you feel like you have been early retired for a decade? I know you've been busy and I know you've been working on things, but is that how you think about your life?
- [29:47]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, I, I do, I do but again with the caveat of, like, I overthink things and I don't want to, like, ever portray myself in the wrong light. So I. Ginger, I know that I overthink. That's like, again, this is something I've been dealing with for a very, very long time. So I think, yeah, if I'm completely frank, I do consider myself early retired, even though by any definition I do work. But this is. This is a passion project. Like, this is. If choose. If I made $0 tomorrow, I would still do this podcast. There's no world where I would stop this podcast. There's no world. I just love it. So I think we're all going to have passion projects once we reach FI or once we leave our corporate job or however you want to term it. And I think, as Pete, Mr. Money Mustache, used to like to joke, it's like the Internet retirement police, you know, these jerks who come around and are like, oh, but you're making money. So you're not actually FI or you're not actually early retired. And it's like, why these people feel the need to disparage anybody that they don't know for no particular reason. It's just. Yeah, it's so beyond me. Like, people are going to earn money. They are. People are going to do projects. They are. That's just that we're the most. Like, if you go to any FI event, you're going to find the most interesting, creative people, driven people that you've ever met in your entire life. Like, this is what's fun about meeting five people. Like, we're super interesting and it's awesome. So to imagine that somebody's going to sit around doing nothing as your definition of early retired, sitting around watching sports for 12 hours a day on TV, like, nobody's aspiring to that. That's. That's ridiculous. So, yeah, I mean, Ginger, I think by any definition, I control my time, and I think that's the only thing that matters. And I'm taking much more control of that time now. And I think that mini retirement that I went on really, really helped a lot. Thanks for listening to Choose a Phi and for all your support of our mission here. The absolute best way to support Choose a Pie is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards page at Choose. I keep this page constantly updated, so it should always be the top resource for you. Thanks for being part of our community and for your support.
- [32:04]
Jonathan
So we know a lot of the good things that have come from your life because You've reached financial independence. Right. Like, you've talked a lot about what it means to be able to do work that you want to do, to be able to travel when you want to travel. A lot of things that seem really appealing, like, yes, I want it, let's do it. If you think about the last 10 years, what has been harder than you expected it to be?
- [32:31]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, so the harder things, I guess a couple things. So, I mean, first. Well, I never liked working by any means. I think what most people do like about their jobs are their coworkers and having this built in camaraderie. And I really did enjoy my coworkers at my old job and I didn't do a great job of keeping up with them after I left. And you, you lose that built in camaraderie that's there. And yeah, I mean, I think more than that is I didn't do a great job of trying to build a community here in Richmond or trying to build like real friendships. So I think, I think I was probably lonely for a while, I think. Yeah, I think, I think that clearly happened. You know, I think also you have to figure out what works for you and your life situation. And I think we thought at first, like, me being home would be this like amazing thing. Like I get to be home with the girls when they're there and when they're not, you know, before they went to school and I'm there with my wife Laura. But I think there's a way to fall into bad habits. And not that I'm advocating working in a job by any means, but I think I didn't establish like a better work life balance in the sense that, like, it felt like any time I was getting with all three of them was like kind of grazing time. It was always like I would see Laura 10 times a day and it would just be like these quick hits like, hey, how are you doing? What have you been up to? And it just like, it was just these like meaningless conversations. Even though by any measure, like we were spending a lot of time together, it wasn't like real quality time. It was all these just like drive by things. And like my daughters saw me because I didn't establish boundaries. And I think boundaries are really important, especially when you have your own business. It's so easy to do more. Like, I could work if I wanted to. I could work 24 hours a day, every day for the rest of my life on Choose a Vibe. I was so inclined. And I think I'm a lot better with it now, but for years there I would just kind of graze on up, you know, mosey on up to my, my office and quote, unquote, check email. Like if you could ask my daughters, like how many times daddy went and checked email and then was just vanished for 30 minutes or, or an hour or something. And it's like. So, yeah, I mean, I don't think I did a great job with that.
- [34:58]
Jonathan
That has to be so common because the main thing that work gives us is structure.
- [35:05]
Brad Barrett
Yeah.
- [35:05]
Jonathan
And that influences kind of every part of our day. Right. It influences how we direct our psychic energy. But it also, like you're getting at something people aren't thinking about, which is the coming back together with the family and how leaving the family influences the coming back together as a family and influences that quality of time that you have. And so without those sort of built in routines, I could see how it could be in fact kind of distressing for people to figure that part out because we don't usually think about it.
- [35:41]
Brad Barrett
No, we don't, we don't. And I think, I think the key takeaway for me was intentionality or should have been or is for everybody else is, I think in all aspects of your life, like you said, setting up these boundaries, setting up a structure is really what you were talking about. I think it's all part and parcel of being intentional. And when you aren't intentional, it's easy to fall into bad habits, no matter what they may be. And it's funny because so many of my friends in the FI community who have reached FI and then went and traveled, right? Like, quote, unquote, like, I'm going to go travel the world, they almost invariably come back to some type of structure, however they define that. So I know, like Alan and Katie Donegan and I talked at length on our, our travels to Asia a couple months ago. And they've been nomadic now for five years. And they're at the point where they're contemplating, like, hey, what would it look like to have maybe three or four home bases each year, where we spend three or four months each year? Because they want a structure. They want to have the same, you know, some friends who they knew maybe from last year who are still there, they want a gym to go to and their routine and a kitchen to cook in and be able to buy groceries for months at a time as opposed to just grazing. And I think that intentionality is really important. So I think that's something that I, in all candor, I just, I really screwed up on And I think. Yeah, I just don't think it was. It was ideal.
- [37:16]
Jonathan
Yeah. I think it's an interesting thing to talk about, because freedom, you know, when you're talking about the Donegans, that is also freedom, like, to be able to put that structure. And so often we think of freedom more like no structure. But chaos isn't exactly the path that we want to go.
- [37:37]
Brad Barrett
Right, right.
- [37:38]
Jonathan
Either. Okay. So structure was a tricky thing to figure out. I want us to move closer to the present moment, although it's interesting to hear about what were those struggles early on. And I know we had talked about a big thing that's happening in your life, and. And that's one of the reasons that we wanted to have this conversation was so that you could share a little bit about something hard that's happening now.
- [38:04]
Brad Barrett
Yeah. Yeah. And this is. This is not. Not easy to talk about, but, yeah, my. My wife and I are separated, and we are in the. Really, the final stages of finalizing a divorce, actually. So, yeah, it's. It is really not easy to talk about, Ginger, because I have been chronicling my life for. For eight years, and there's part of me that wants to talk about this, and there's obviously part of me that says ultimately, it's nobody's business. You know, it's. It's. It's a very personal thing. And, you know, unfortunately, in life, people drift apart sometimes, and. And things happen, and that's just the reality of life, you know, And. And there's obviously. So I. I'm of. It's hard. I think it. It's hard. And. And I didn't want to not talk about it. I think is. Is the biggest thing, you know, because I feel like the people who listen to the show are coming here in a large part because they feel like maybe I'm their friend in some weird way. And, you know, and. And. And I just. I didn't want to hide something, but I also know, frankly, that I have very thin skin. And I know how my friend Pete, Mr. Money Mustache, just got, for no reason whatsoever, got attacked years ago when he announced that he was getting divorced. And. And I think, like, to me, the thing that, like, I'm. I'm most worried about, as weird as this sounds, like, obviously I'm most worried about the impact on my children, let's be clear. But. But in terms of. Of this podcast is like, again, these. These just ultimately trolls and jerks just coming and, like, attacking fi. Because my marriage happened to not work out right. Like, just because my Wife and I grew apart. Like, nothing terrible happened, nothing bad happened from Fi and, like, not even remotely, but, like, somehow people using it as, like, a cudgel to attack five because, oh, look at this guy, Brad, who's been talking about what a great life he's had and. And he's getting a divorce like that. I know it's weird, Ginger, but, like, I've devoted so much of my life to the Fi community, and I. I feel so strongly about it and, like, it just. It tears me up to think that people might attack Fi because my marriage happened to not work out and.
- [40:34]
Jonathan
Yeah.
- [40:34]
Brad Barrett
I don't know.
- [40:35]
Jonathan
Well, this is part of that objectification, right? About. We have this idea about who you are, and it's hard for people to hear that you're a person.
- [40:46]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, yeah. And we are just people. We are just people.
- [40:51]
Jonathan
Yeah. And of course, sort of like money, you know, like, we talk about how retiring early kind of influences every part of your life. Like, so does the structure of your family. And so I appreciate that you're saying, ah, this is, like, so private and yet it's also so big. Yeah, right. That it's changing every part of your life right now.
- [41:15]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, it really is. I think the things going on my life, in my life generally over the last eight years are things that I talk about on the podcast, because if I'm going through it, undoubtedly there are many tens, hundreds of thousands, millions of people who are going through something similar. And because I am a very private person and, you know, I'm not going to go into every last detail, but things that. That I'll be dealing with, splitting up assets, splitting up businesses, you know, which is really complex, like dealing with all this stuff. Like, undoubtedly it will influence the podcast in some way, but there's no world where I'm going to come on here and just, like, bare my soul about, you know, every last little detail. Like, that's not. Nobody needs that. Nobody's. It's not practical. It' it's nobody's business again. But if I can help people, that's always what I've wanted to do, is if I can help people in some way, I want to do that. And if that means bringing on. I met some attorney last year at Economy who spoke on the main stage about. About prenuptial agreements and things like that and splitting assets, like, he might be somebody that I get on and would be interesting to talk to. And, you know, it's just. This is an aspect of the financial life that is really important to a Lot of people. Clearly it's very important and frankly in almost 700 episodes of Jews of I, we've never talked about it. So like that will have to change. I think it should have changed prior to this. Totally irrelevant of my life. But yeah, so I mean I'm going to talk about it in some way, but, but yeah, I just, you know, again it's, it's like my own fear, Ginger. But like I just, I'm like, I know in my heart of hearts that if there are people who are listening to this or hear this and like want to vilify me or attack me, like it says way more about them and like what, you know, the pathetic state of their soul and brain than, than about me, you know, but nevertheless, like I don't want to log on to Facebook and see people like attack me in my group or get emails like, oh, you're a fraud because you got divorced. Like, give me a break. I'm not a fraud. Fi is not a fraud. Like it just. Life happens sometimes against your best laid plans. And I think like we talked about before with, you know, time is your one non renewable resource and I think it's important to also pick up your life and move forward positively. And I think luckily Fi has afforded me and us the ability to do that. And we're not going to be destitute when this all shakes down. It's, it's, it's not going to be, you know, the perfect financial situation. But, but we're not. I'm not going to be destitute by any stretch and I think I have the ability to move forward and try to live the best life that I possibly can. And I think that's what we're all trying to do. Right. And I think that aspect is a good thing. And yeah, it's just, you know, life is short and it's. To wish any amount of it away is just kind of silly. So yeah, I'm just trying to pick back up and live the best life I can.
- [44:05]
Jonathan
Yeah. What have been the parts of this process that have surprised you?
- [44:10]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, well that's a good question. I mean it's not surprising that it's stressful. It's obviously stressful. I think there's just so many details to figure out, especially when you have kids in the mix, especially when you are trying to figure out co parenting and how the exact timeline is going to work. And also we're very cognizant of our kids mental well being. And while there is, there's something you could Put on paper like, this is how we're going to split custody. But when the rubber hits the road and the kids feel really comfortable in one spot, like it's hard to force them to sleep in somebody, you know, in another place or something like that. Like, I think one of the, the best parts about us has always been like, we don't get caught up in the, the normal cultural things of like, you should do this, you have to do this. Or like, because it's Thanksgiving, you need to do X with this family. And like, or July 4th, like the funny example is like July 4th, it's like a big party at our summer pool. And it's like everybody goes. They line up like hours early to go in. It's just like a madhouse. And it's horrible. Like we would go to the pool every other day of the year other than July 4th, because like, in our minds we're not cheap who like just do what everybody else does. And you know, I think that is probably going to help us through this process. But it also, it does add some complications, obviously. And, and yeah, I mean, I think just finally is, is anytime you have to split up a fairly complex financial life, it's not super simple. So trying to figure all that kind of stuff out is, is it's just details. At the end of the day, it's all just details. It's all going to work out fine. It's just. And obviously I don't wish that I had $0 of net worth, right. Or didn't have rental properties or didn't have a business or whatever. But like, but it adds complexity to it. So I think that's maybe the. What's slightly harder than I would have expected.
- [46:09]
Jonathan
Yeah, you mentioned that it's a stressful time. Of course. Of course it is. Has money or the money issues, have they been stressful?
- [46:20]
Brad Barrett
I mean, yes, yes and no. Ultimately, I think no in the sense that I think again, we are fi. By any definition on paper and money is still coming in from my businesses. So the stress has just been like, okay, look, I'm having to split up one financial life into two. So it's just been more details. I've been trying to proactively set up new accounts, new checking accounts, new things that aren't joint. Right. And, and just try to. Then you move all your auto pays and all your other things. Right. It's like all these little, little, little details. So it's just been a lot of work. But I wouldn't say that aspect has been stressful. But yeah, I mean, ultimately, just, you know, again, the final details of, of how things get sorted out, like, that's never going to be perfectly straightforward unless you just had a checking account with X number of dollars in and you just divide by two. Right?
- [47:19]
Jonathan
Yeah, I think to kind of pull back and ask a more general question. I think something that people think about when they are developing their phi number is that if they are coupled, they're thinking about what that number is for the couple. And that, that might look, I think it necessarily looks really different if it's two single people. And so, you know, I've heard of people like, how do you factor that in when you're thinking about something that might happen in 20 years? Like, you all want to believe that our lives will be the same, but often, many, many times they aren't. So I guess for you it sounds like you're saying it hasn't stressed you out in terms of like, hey, now we're not going to be able to make it now we're not going to be okay. It sounds like you're okay. But how would you advise people to sort of think about this as they're thinking about financial independence?
- [48:14]
Brad Barrett
Oh, yeah, that Ginger, that is tough. I think I'd need to think more deeply to give a better answer because I, I haven't thought about that, that.
- [48:26]
Jonathan
Overtly and maybe there isn't really a good answer to that question.
- [48:30]
Brad Barrett
No, because I. Well, yeah, because I wonder, right, like, does it just lead to not one more year syndrome, but ten more year syndrome, right? Like, hey, are we 50x5? Because 50x our expenses? Because what happens if, if things go bad? Yeah, but you can't stick your head in the sand. I'm arguing both sides of this, so bear with me. Like, you can't stick your head in the sand, of course, and say, obviously you look at divorce rates and know that this is very realistic for a lot of people. So it's not out of the blue if somebody in our community gets divorced, right? Like, it's invariably going to happen to 20, 30, 50% of people. It's just, it's going to happen. Yeah, but yeah, I wouldn't necessarily advise like over saving for something that you don't know what the likelihood of it is. So it's kind of a quandary or an impasse. I, I don't know exactly how to think about that. I think at the end of the day, like, I think I can only really give my own, my own thoughts on where I am now, which is it's interesting when I look at my financial life, and I've talked long, talked about being like a minimalist and, you know, not really spending that much money in the scheme of things. And I actually look at my. My own financial life now, which will be going forward separately, and I actually don't spend that much money. I really don't. I spend on rent. I spend a couple hundred bucks a month on food. I have a personal trainer and a gym membership, which is not that much in the scheme of things. And honestly, Ginger, there's not much more. You know, obviously I'll have my own health insurance and of course, you know, all the normal insurances and things like that, but I live a pretty good life, I think, and I don't spend that much money, and I have a lot of travel rewards points, and I'm going to travel a good bit. And we know that isn't terribly expensive from friends of ours, like Christine Bryce from Millennial revolution. They spend $30,000 a year on travel. And I know the Donegans can spend somewhere in that vicinity. I know they've loosened the purse strings recently also, but, yeah, I mean, that's been an interesting realization for me. It's like my life actually costs less than I thought that it would, so I don't know that there's much of a takeaway there. But nevertheless, that has been interesting.
- [50:41]
Jonathan
Yeah. When you mentioned insurance, it made me think, I wonder if there are other expenses that people don't think about. Obviously, housing is the big one I think about right away, and insurance is a big one. Are there other things that, when you split, become more expensive?
- [50:59]
Brad Barrett
Ooh, that's a good question. I have not seen it to date, but, I mean, I think just by. Well, just by virtue, right. Of having two locations, right. Then you have double the Internet costs, you have double the utilities, all that stuff. Right. Like, you don't think about that. You have double insurance now, especially if you're getting two comparable places. Right. So I'm in a townhouse, so it's rented. I'm actually renting now. So I think, interestingly, I don't know that I'll ever. And it's way too early to say never, but as of right now, I don't think I'll ever own my primary residence ever again.
- [51:36]
Jonathan
What?
- [51:37]
Brad Barrett
I love renting. I have always loved the concept of renting. I would never, ever, ever own my primary residence. Yeah, I think ever. That's probably a whole extra hour episode. Maybe we can. We can do another time.
- [51:51]
Jonathan
I want you to say a little bit more about that though, because you put so many never evers in front of that.
- [51:56]
Brad Barrett
Oh, I mean, never ever. I mean, just from the financial aspect, I love renting. It's incredible. It just costs nothing other than this is the money that I send over every month via bank transfer. And anything that pops up, like you don't realize, like. And this is not to say that real estate is a bad investment. I think people conflate the two. Like there's this like cult of homeownership. But that's very different from like having rental properties that are an actual business. Like, totally separate issue. I'm not arguing that at all. I think most people, if they're completely honest with themselves, of which almost nobody ever is, owning your own primary residence is not an investment at all. It's a terrible investment at best because you don't think of all the things, the money, that they're the money pits. They're total money pits. Like I think of just random things like the sprinkler system that we turn on and off for $200 a year because you have to keep your lawn nice. So you get fertilizing and you know, just all these stupid things. Not to mention all the things that break. And you don't think like, oh, I just spent $10,000 on an H vac unit that has a 10 year useful life. I'm just making this up. So that's $1,000 a year, that's $80 a month, essentially. Like you don't think of that as a cost in your mortgage, but like every single thing in your house has a useful life. From the roof that's going to cost you 20 to $50,000 on down. You should really, like my accountants speak, you should really amortize that across every single month and realize like that's how much your house costs because you have to replace every single one of those damn things. And things break all the time. Refrigerators break, hot water heaters break. Like when you actually add it all up and then the real estate taxes, like it all just adds up to this crazy number, you know, I mean it's wild. Like it is very, very, very expensive. So yeah, I mean, just the flexibility of being able to rent the lower cost. And then not to mention the biggest thing that most people don't realize is the opportunity costs, right? So let's say you have a house that now is worth. It's just gone up, right? Gone up a ton. Maybe you bought it for $200,000 and now it's worth 500,000. Like, that's not unrealistic for a lot of our listeners. And maybe you paid down the mortgage. Maybe you only owe 100 grand on that mortgage. The house is worth 500. Okay, so you have $400,000 of equity, which is wonderful, but that's just sitting there inert, doing nothing. Right. As opposed to had you had that $400 and invested in the stock market. Well, damn, over the last couple years, that almost undoubtedly would have doubled. Right. But even putting that aside, if you assume that you get 8% annual return on that, it's not every year, of course, but this past year would have been over 20%. Some years it's negative, but most years it's pretty darn good. 8% of that 400 is $32,000 a year. Like, I mean, that's almost $3,000 a month that is just sitting there in those walls. Whereas if you had that 400,000 and invested it, you could have pulled that 30 and that would have covered a rent payment in my case. So I think a lot of people don't factor that in as a cost. When they think about their primary residence. Is the equity just sitting there inert? So I think almost invariably your primary residence is a terrible investment, if we'd even call it that. But nevertheless, I just, I like the flexibility. I like, if anything breaks, I just make a phone call and they show up and I don't have to pay a dollar. It's. It's amazing. It's really amazing.
- [55:15]
Jonathan
Yeah. You mentioned before that you found yourself becoming more and more of a minimalist. And you hear that a lot in this community. And I am certainly also lean that way. And I've wondered if part of that is by the time that you are our age, you have a couple decades to sort of look back and say, what do I regret spending money on? And what am I happy I spent money on? And I think for most of us, it's like you were saying before, I'm not going to regret having taken this trip with my daughters. And I think the same way, right? Like, oh, I had these experiences. They're over, but they're important to me now. Whereas I do regret things, things that I bought that did not have long lasting value to me. And yet, even though that is totally me and more and more is me. Oh my gosh, my house, though, I think I'm so sentimental when I hear you talk about this freedom that comes from not being connected to the chains of home ownership. That sounds really Appealing. But, oh, my gosh, I have such a attachment to my house.
- [56:24]
Brad Barrett
I hear you.
- [56:24]
Jonathan
Yeah.
- [56:25]
Brad Barrett
Oh, I. I totally. I totally, totally hear you. Yeah, there's no right answer. And yeah, again, because people sometimes misconstrue things. I'm not saying owning your home is a terrible idea. Quite the contrary. I have owned a home for the last. Since 2005, for 20 years, because psychologically, it made sense. For our daughters, it made sense. For stability, it made sense. But I don't think for one second that it was a financial investment. It was.
- [56:56]
Jonathan
Yeah.
- [56:56]
Brad Barrett
I spent money on living there and. And even, quote, unquote, owning your home is. Is like a silly misnomer anyway. People always say, oh, you're throwing money away to rent. Well, take a look at your mortgage saving next time. Look at the amortization and look at how much of your. What percentage of your payment every month is going towards interest. You will be shocked at how high it is. So let's be entirely clear. That is rent in another name. So, yeah, there's that. But going back to minimalism is. Yeah, I mean, I think for me. And again, it's not to say that this is the right answer. There's no right answer. Everything is about yourself. But, like, I am more minimalist now than I've ever been. I mean, even to the point of, like, I've gotten my life down to. If I. If I needed to leave this place right now, I could put just about everything I have into one suitcase and I'd be perfectly fine.
- [57:45]
Jonathan
Awesome.
- [57:46]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, it's cool. And, like, you know, maybe I'm taking a little too far. I'm like, you know, I have this bookshelf that I'm looking here. Maybe I'll. I'm thinking about offering this up to the Richmond local group of just, like, hey, I'm going to bring all of my books to the next meetup, and anybody can grab any book they want. Like, I have this, like, this shelf that. I don't even know why I have these books. Like, I'm not going to reread any of them. They're just like, these little trophies in some bizarro sense. Like, do I really need this? So, like, I'm kind of questioning everything now, and it's not to sit here like a miser and just, like, sit and stare at blank walls. So I am cognizant of, like, maybe overdoing it. But there is something kind of cool and liberating about saying, like, I'm not tied down to stuff, and that's not to say when I move somewhere, you know, if I move somewhere that I'm not going to need to buy stuff, because frankly, I will. But there's something in my mind that's like, oh, it'd be cool if I just had a list of the things that I would need to rebuy. Like, if I didn't even want to store this stuff, or if, let's say I went and traveled someday. You know, my kids are off in college and I. I have some freedom and I can do what I want. Like, am I gonna store this queen size bed that I have here? Am I gonna store these blankets, like, at a cost? You know, my books and my kitchen stuff, or should I just rebuy the darn stuff? You know? Like, I know that sounds kind of crazy, but, like, this is where my mind is going. It's like, wouldn't it be cool to just be liberated and just say, like, hey, these are the, the 50 things I would need to buy when I move to a new place. And maybe I just think about rebuying them. I know this is kind of a weird off the wall brainstorm, but it's been kind of fun just realizing, like, how little I need to live a really good life. And I think that that's really the takeaway. It's been, it's been energizing. And then, you know, I look at my closet all the time. I'm like, you could do that thing where like, hey, I haven't worn this in a year. Am I really ever going to wear it? Or is this time, Is it time to donate this to somebody who actually is? And you know what? If I ever needed that sweater or need a sweater, like, I could just go buy another sweater sometime. Like, I haven't worn a sweater here in Richmond in 15 years. Do I really need these things? Like, I really, really don't. So, yeah, it's been kind of a fun intellectual exercise in that regard.
- [59:54]
Jonathan
Yeah. When I hear you saying like, oh, I could just buy new sheets, I could buy new, like, it feels, I feel like this openness in my chest. Like, oh, yes, freedom. Like, that is so appealing to me. To not be attached to any of your things, I think that is so incredible. And yet when I said I'm really attached to my house, I saw an understanding in your eyes that you get that. And I wondered, like, to go back to your life. If we just put the difficulty of the changing relationships on hold and put that to the side, was there something hard about leaving the family home like, were you attached to that place?
- [60:40]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, that's. That's interesting. So. Right. Obviously, putting aside the relationships like you said, so let anybody who's listening be clear that we're not talking about that at all. So totally. Putting that aside, the actual location. No, like, and I think. I think it kind of ties to what I've said for a long time is like, I don't get psychological satisfaction from owning a home or owning a car or any kind of stuff. Like, it's just. It's just not my thing. It really isn't. So, I mean, were there aspects of the house that I love? Yeah, of course. Of course there were. Right. Like, you know, did I really enjoy having the hot tub downstairs that I could go in all the time? Yeah, it was, you know, it was cool. But is. Is there anything that, like, realistically I would like, desperately miss? No, I. And I think it speaks to maybe more like, practicality of it. Like, this is maybe that, like, maximizer versus satisficer thing that I've talked about a couple times. It's like this psychological thing of. And satisficer is kind of a weird word. So it's not satisfier, it's satisficer. And it's basically like, people who are maximizers look to like, get every last little drop out of something and it has to be the perfect answer. And they're going to always stress about, did I make the right decision? Did I not? And like, the satisficer basically finds something that's good enough and just makes a decision and then never regrets all those other options of what could have been. And I think. I think I'm very much a satisficer in the sense that I know there. That was one of 10,000 homes just in the Richmond area, or probably more than that, that we would have been content with, you know, so it wasn't like. It wasn't like I had some deep seated. Like, this is the home. I think the home is for me, the memories of my daughters growing up and doing fun things and that kind of stuff. So I think that's kind of agnostic to like, the actual building. Like, that's just the way my brain works is like, I'm just not tied to buildings. I'm not tied to stuff. I'm not tied to cars. I'm not tied to anything, frankly. And I don't know, to me, that feels like, kind of liberating. Like, I know it could possibly sound callous to somebody's ears. Who's like, maybe they. They think opposite, but that's the beauty of life, is we all think differently. Right. Like, to me, it's not callous at all. It's. It's focusing on the important stuff, not the structure that I happen to reside in.
- [63:09]
Jonathan
Yeah, no, I think it's helpful because we gotta hear how other people think about it. Like, it helps us when we need to change how we think about it. And this conversation makes me think of the conversation that I had with Ann from Alaska, and we talked a lot about leaving her family home, Right. Where she had raised her children after 30 years. And to me, that was such an emotional thing to explore. I mean, I wanted to talk to her about it because it seemed really hard. And she said something so smart that I think about all the time where she says, okay, I was giving up the house, but I wasn't giving up the memories in the house. And I think about when I think about leaving our house, I think, oh, gosh, how could I ever leave this image of my child being three in the raspberry bushes? Right. And yet Anna saying, well, you don't have that now. He's not three anymore. You already don't have that. So the thing that you take forward with you, right, that memory, those you get to keep, and just that framing of it helps me to calm down about some of my attachment to things and to places. Because when you really look at what is it that's so terrible about leaving this, and it's about leaving the memory of the experience. And you even hit on that when you were like, okay, well, what's special about this house? It's the memories that I have with my daughter. And you get to have those no matter where you are.
- [64:35]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, yeah, agreed. Totally agree.
- [64:38]
Jonathan
So as we're kind of wrapping it up, I'm thinking about something that you said before we started recording where I was kind of asking you some details about what was happening, and you were so honest about, like, I don't know. Right. Like, I don't know everything about this process. I don't know everything that it's going to require. Right. And so I think maybe it would be wise of us to end not on a tidied little wrapped up closing, but to say, hey, this is part of the journey and I really appreciate you being willing to talk about it. And I know it's helpful for other people to hear about that journey as well.
- [65:21]
Brad Barrett
Yeah.
- [65:22]
Jonathan
So thank you so much and let's talk soon.
- [65:26]
Brad Barrett
Yeah, yeah, that sounds good. And Ginger, thank you. Thank you for interviewing me. This is I think a cool idea generally. And thank you for helping me and just, you know, just being there. This is not, not an easy one for me by any means, but I think it was important. So yeah, thank you.
- [65:42]
Ginger
Sincerely, thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the choosefy community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player, just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choosefi.com subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the the newsletter list right there and I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox.
- [66:20]
Brad Barrett
So that's the way that I keep.
- [66:21]
Ginger
A pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a vi local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a vi.com local and you'll find a list of all of Those cities in 20 plus countries.
- [66:41]
Brad Barrett
All across the world.
- [66:43]
Ginger
And if you're just getting started with VI or you have a family member or friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways choose a phy episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community. And even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life? And then choose a VI created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free. Just head to choosefi.com fi101 and again, thanks for listening.