Getting Personal with Personal Finance: Ginger & TJ | Episode 519

Summary

ChooseFI Episode 519 Summary: Getting Personal with Personal Finance – Ginger & TJ

Release Date: November 4, 2024

In Episode 519 of the ChooseFI podcast, hosts Ginger and Brad sit down with TJ, a 37-year-old financial independence (FI) achiever, and his wife, Jessica. This episode delves deep into TJ and Jessica's journey toward financial independence, the challenges they've faced, and the strategies they've employed to align their finances with their personal goals. Through candid conversations, actionable insights, and heartfelt stories, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the multifaceted path to FI.

---

1. Introduction to Guests

Ginger warmly introduces TJ and Jessica, highlighting TJ's exceptional qualities and their shared commitment to financial independence.

• Ginger [00:34]: "It's rare to meet someone so successful, so warm, so generous, who is also so very young. We're here today to learn his secrets."

2. Journey to Financial Independence

a. Realizing FI's Purpose

TJ and Jessica describe how their upbringing influenced their saving habits and how they discovered the true purpose behind their savings.

• TJ [01:03]: "We found FI realized that there was a purpose to the savings."

• Jessica [02:10]: "Instead of spending on other things that I already knew I didn't need, I just wanted to save and have available for whatever the future might bring."

b. Initial Savings and Investments

Both TJ and Jessica have engineering backgrounds, providing them with substantial incomes that surpassed their families' previous earnings. This financial boost allowed them to save aggressively.

• TJ [01:57]: "I got a Bachelor’s in mechanical engineering and a master's in nuclear engineering."

• Jessica [02:56]: "I knew a little bit about how to invest some money and make it grow."

c. Influence of ChooseFI and Related Resources

A pivotal moment in their FI journey was discovering the ChooseFI podcast, which offered actionable tips that resonated with their financial goals.

• TJ [03:11]: "One of my good friends and prior coworker Chris Cannon introduced me to the ChooseFI podcast... we realized, hey, this is a method that we can be very intentional about making the money work for us."

• Jessica [46:15]: "Simple Path to Wealth removed a burden and made it clear for us a simple take action path forward."

3. Aligning Financial Plans with Life Goals

a. Breaking Down Expenses

TJ and Jessica meticulously tracked their expenses, identifying areas where they could cut costs and areas where spending aligned with their values.

• Jessica [11:30]: "We started saving even more money there and converting it to Roth."

• TJ [11:40]: "A couple of examples early on that we identified some where we wanted to save some money... switching to a low-cost provider saved us hundreds of dollars a year."

b. Intentional Spending and Saving

They instituted quarterly money dates to review their finances, ensuring that their spending was intentional and aligned with their priorities.

• Jessica [09:32]: "We started tracking our net worth is the big change that happened in 2018."

• TJ [10:03]: "We had a history from the last seven years of every quarter, what all of our accounts were worth and what our thoughts were."

4. Transitioning to Financial Independence

a. Achieving FI Number in 2024

By 2024, TJ and Jessica had successfully reached their essential FI number, enabling them to consider retirement options and spend more time with their family.

• Jessica [07:56]: "We've hit our essential FI number so we don't have to work again."

• TJ [08:03]: "That's what we're choosing to do, is to spend that time as a family."

b. Benefits Achieved: More Time with Family

Financial independence has allowed them to focus on family, particularly enjoying time with their 20-month-old son.

• Jessica [08:09]: "I get the ability to see him each and every day."

5. Personal Challenges and Financial Impact

a. Wife’s Health Crisis

A significant turning point in their financial journey was Jessica's unexpected diagnosis with a rare brain tumor, leading to substantial medical expenses and altering their FI plans.

• TJ [26:42]: "My wife got some scans of her head, and they came back and told us that she had a brain tumor..."

• Jessica [27:36]: "It was a particularly rare brain tumor, and she was going to have to go through treatment."

b. Medical Expenses and Adjusting FI Plans

The couple faced over half a million dollars in medical bills, prompting a reevaluation of their FI number and financial strategies.

• TJ [29:20]: "Even after insurance, we spent well over $50,000 in medical."

• Jessica [31:04]: "It changes our FI number when you add in those expenses, especially when you leave a job that has great healthcare benefits."

6. Coping Mechanisms and Mindset

a. Faith and Community Support

Faith and a supportive community played crucial roles in helping TJ and Jessica navigate the emotional and financial challenges of Jessica's illness.

• Jessica [32:13]: "We don't worry about it with our faith, we do believe that we'll be taken care of no matter what happens."

b. Positive Outlook and Intentional Responses

Their proactive and positive mindset enabled them to make informed decisions amidst uncertainty.

• TJ [41:15]: "It's a mindset as it is to see what the experience is and look back at it."

• Jessica [42:15]: "By doing those actions, that proves that I have some amount of agency and that continues to ground me."

7. Recommendations and Lessons Learned

a. Tracking Net Worth

A key takeaway from TJ and Jessica's journey is the importance of regularly tracking net worth to visualize financial progress and stay motivated.

• TJ [46:07]: "We still put it into a OneNote page and write the numbers down."

• Jessica [48:01]: "The reason though, that that's so impactful is because... you don't see how much you put in and how much it has grown."

b. Insurance Considerations

They emphasize the necessity of planning for insurance post-retirement, highlighting unexpected costs associated with losing employer-sponsored benefits.

• TJ [48:45]: "We have a great company subsidized insurance, but the ACA plan ended up being a lot more when you consider both premiums and out-of-pocket."

c. Emphasizing Flexibility and Intentionality

Flexibility in financial planning and being intentional with spending foster resilience and adaptability during unforeseen circumstances.

• Brad [53:03]: "Say instead, like, no, this is a dynamic process. We're intentional about how we're making decisions and we can change our mind about things."

• Jessica [53:31]: "If you embrace it, it can help you have a great experience every day."

8. Closing Remarks

TJ and Jessica conclude the episode by sharing their personal stories of resilience, emphasizing the importance of alignment in financial and personal goals. They encourage listeners to take intentional actions towards financial independence, assuring them that with the right mindset and strategies, achieving FI is attainable.

• Jessica [54:30]: "As you think about all these things that you're hearing on this episode and all of the episodes, know any resistance that you feel, you know, it's real resistance. But as long as you are still taking the actions, you're driving yourself in the right direction that'll lead to where you want to go."

• TJ [55:03]: "So go take action. Hopefully you can be excited about it and know that other people are making it happen and you can make it happen too."

---

Notable Quotes

• Ginger [00:34]: "It's rare to meet someone so successful, so warm, so generous, who is also so very young. We're here today to learn his secrets."

• TJ [03:11]: "One of my good friends and prior coworker Chris Cannon introduced me to the ChooseFI podcast... we realized, hey, this is a method that we can be very intentional about making the money work for us."

• Jessica [08:09]: "I get the ability to see him each and every day."

• Jessica [53:31]: "If you embrace it, it can help you have a great experience every day."

• TJ [55:03]: "So go take action. Hopefully you can be excited about it and know that other people are making it happen and you can make it happen too."

---

Key Takeaways

1. Intentional Saving and Investing: TJ and Jessica's disciplined approach to saving and investing was foundational to their FI journey. Regularly tracking their net worth helped them stay motivated and aligned with their goals.

2. Flexibility in Financial Planning: Their experience underscores the importance of being flexible and adaptable in financial planning, especially when unexpected life events occur.

3. Importance of Alignment: Ensuring that financial decisions align with personal values and life goals is crucial for sustained financial well-being and satisfaction.

4. Resilience Through Community and Faith: Support systems, whether through faith, family, or community, play a significant role in navigating financial and personal challenges.

5. Continuous Learning and Adaptation: Staying informed through resources like the ChooseFI podcast and adopting a growth mindset can empower individuals to make informed financial decisions.

---

Actionable Tips for Listeners

• Track Your Net Worth: Regularly update your net worth to visualize financial progress and stay motivated.

• Hold Regular Financial Meetings: Set quarterly meetings to review your finances, align on spending, and adjust plans as necessary.

• Plan for Insurance Needs: Before retiring or achieving FI, carefully plan for insurance coverage to avoid unexpected costs.

• Stay Flexible: Be prepared to adapt your financial strategies in response to life’s uncertainties.

• Leverage Community Resources: Engage with communities and resources that support your FI journey, providing both knowledge and emotional support.

---

This episode of ChooseFI offers a profound look into the intersection of personal life challenges and financial independence. TJ and Jessica's story is a testament to the power of intentional financial planning, resilience, and the unwavering pursuit of living life on one’s own terms. Whether you're just beginning your FI journey or further along the path, their experiences provide valuable lessons and inspiration.

Transcript

[Brad]

Hi, everyone.

[Ginger]

It's Ginger again. I'm here today with TJ to have another personal conversation about personal finance. I've talked to TJ exactly one time, and in that short conversation found him to be an extraordinary person. It's rare to meet someone so successful, so warm, so generous, who is also so very young. We're here today to learn his secrets. And with that little teaser, welcome to Choose Fi.

[TJ]

Thanks, Ginger.

[Jessica]

I'm so excited to be here and.

[TJ]

Happy to share my experience that might.

[Jessica]

Be helpful for others.

[Ginger]

Yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and give people a little bit of an image here. So give us some demographic information. How old are you? What does your family look like?

[TJ]

So I am 37 years old.

[Jessica]

I am married. My wife and I had our first son recently.

[TJ]

He's 20 months old and a joy to be around.

[Jessica]

And we've been saving for a few years.

[TJ]

We found Fi realized that there was.

[Jessica]

A purpose to the savings. And we've gotten to the point now where, as far as essential expenses go, we've hit our FI number and are starting at least a mini retirement, which may turn into a permanent retirement.

[TJ]

And really excited about that.

[Ginger]

I love it. We're just jumping right in. So TJ is retired, slash, sort of retired, slash, maybe retired. So we definitely want to hear the details, but let's kind of start with. You said, suddenly we realized our savings had a purpose. Can you kind of talk us through what was that experience and when did that happen?

[TJ]

Yeah. So my wife and I have both been natural savers. We grew up in families that could make ends meet, but not a lot beyond that. So when we followed what our interests.

[Jessica]

Were, we each ended up going to college for engineering.

[TJ]

I mean, in particular, I got a.

[Jessica]

Bachelor'S in mechanical engineering and a master's in nuclear engineering.

[TJ]

So all excited about the opportunities for a challenging career.

[Jessica]

But the other thing that comes with that is also the opportunity to earn.

[TJ]

A lot more than I'd ever seen in my family's past. So once I had enough money to buy things, I realized that the life.

[Jessica]

That I had been living, that I had through my whole childhood, was an enjoyable life to me. And I. I didn't feel a need.

[TJ]

To change much of that, and so.

[Jessica]

Had a lot of extra money available.

[TJ]

And that ended up being money that.

[Jessica]

Instead of spending on other things that I already knew I didn't need, I just wanted to save and have available for whatever the future might bring.

[TJ]

And so we started saving the money.

[Jessica]

I was blessed by finding programs like what's currently called faithfi, which is a Christian based finance program. At the time it was called Compass one. And so I knew a little bit.

[TJ]

About from that, a little bit about.

[Jessica]

How to invest some money and make.

[TJ]

It grow, not just sit in a.

[Jessica]

Bank account or under a mattress.

[TJ]

And we lived a life that we.

[Jessica]

Really enjoyed and put the money away in a way that it was growing.

[TJ]

And one of my good friends and.

[Jessica]

Prior coworker Chris Cannon introduced me to the Choose a Five podcast when it was back in about episode 30. And there were a lot more actionable tips. Okay, what can we do with this?

[TJ]

And we realized, hey, this is a.

[Jessica]

Method that we can be very intentional.

[TJ]

About making the money work for us.

[Jessica]

And allow us to have experiences and a lifestyle that I honestly didn't even.

[TJ]

Know was possible until I found Choose a fi.

[Ginger]

Yeah, I want to slow you down a little. You were saying, okay, so you got out of college and got your first job and suddenly you were making more money than you had realized. Could kind of be a thing. Right. Or was so foreign to how you grew up. And for some people, for a lot of people, that can be tricky. Like, obviously wonderful and yay, and now I can buy things that I wasn't able to buy before. But it can kind of be tricky in terms of how I think about my own family and, oh, I feel a little bit of guilt. Or did you have any emotions around that that you kind of had to work through? Or were there ways in which it was actually counterintuitively difficult to earn more than your parents had earned?

[TJ]

Yeah, there's probably much more than a.

[Jessica]

Podcast worth of information to share on how that journey goes.

[TJ]

So what I'd say simply is that when we grew up, you know, there's.

[Jessica]

Always the necessities, so we always had.

[TJ]

Food on the table, but it was also always important to volunteer.

[Jessica]

My mom is an incredibly selfless person, and so she demonstrated that for us and modeled it.

[TJ]

And so even when we didn't have.

[Jessica]

Much money of our own, we were.

[TJ]

Giving of our time and going on a lot of, you know, every summer.

[Jessica]

Would be a mission trip and something of that sort.

[TJ]

So that's the loving, generous mindset that.

[Jessica]

I grew up seeing and emulating in myself.

[TJ]

And so what my parents wanted for me was always to have a, you.

[Jessica]

Know, what every parent wants, a successful, well adjusted adult.

[TJ]

So it was always a very supportive.

[Jessica]

Family environment throughout my entire family of.

[TJ]

Going to college like neither of my parents had, and being able to achieve and earn more than all the odds.

[Jessica]

And ends jobs that I did from.

[TJ]

The time I was 14 on. So it wasn't.

[Jessica]

I never felt really guilty about being successful. It was a celebration.

[TJ]

Everyone was very supportive, and it gave me options and abilities and removed some.

[Jessica]

Stresses that, of course, had been in.

[TJ]

My life up to that point. So it was actually just a very positive thing. Yeah, no. No guilt associated with it. Just an excitement.

[Ginger]

Yeah, I love that idea of it was a celebration. Okay, so you and your wife started listening to Choose Fi and now we are up to today. How much time lapse? Like, how much time were you on this very intentional path to we are going to buy our freedom.

[Jessica]

So I started listening to Choose a.

[TJ]

Phi early on, but my wife did not. She was not on board with all of this talking about early retirement. And honestly, she still doesn't like the.

[Jessica]

Idea of an early retirement or reaching financial independence.

[TJ]

So her term for it is work optional. And that's her favorite way to think about it and say it.

[Jessica]

And once we started getting really intentional is probably around 2017, 2018 timeframe. And my wife Jessica is amazing and.

[TJ]

Supportive, so she was always on board.

[Jessica]

With helping save money, but she was.

[TJ]

Very hesitant to accept the Fi lifestyle.

[Jessica]

You know, we would listen to all the standard books.

[TJ]

So she knew about Vicki Robin, and she's like, I don't want to live.

[Jessica]

On an island off the coast of Washington.

[TJ]

That's not our life. Like, and other books and things.

[Jessica]

Like, she just couldn't see herself in any of the stories.

[TJ]

And I understood that. So I did most of the research.

[Jessica]

And listening and planning.

[TJ]

And it was through a free financial advisor that my company offered where we could actually put our goals to paper.

[Jessica]

And they ran some numbers and gave.

[TJ]

Us percent likelihood of success and what our net worth would look like if.

[Jessica]

We continued working till we were 65. And the numbers were just in the millions.

[TJ]

It was like, wait a second. We can live on millions? And so that was the moment that she'll say she got on board with.

[Jessica]

Instead of trying to just earn millions that we knew we didn't need.

[TJ]

How do we target what we really.

[Jessica]

Do want and what we do need and align on that?

[TJ]

And so we got really intentional once those numbers were put to paper in 2018. And now it's 2024, and we've hit our essential phi number so we don't.

[Jessica]

Have to work again.

[TJ]

We are work optional, both of us. And we're also at a point where we can.

[Jessica]

I mean, it's just so exciting with my son at 20 months that I Get the ability to see him each and every day.

[TJ]

And so that's. That's what we're choosing to do, is.

[Jessica]

To spend that time as a family.

[TJ]

And just loving that.

[Ginger]

Yeah. I wonder if it would be helpful for people if you could kind of walk us through logistically, what you meant by, okay, my wife got on board and we started working towards this. And what I mean by that is, I'm assuming that meant, oh, maybe we were opening a brokerage account that was after tax instead of focusing on our retirement accounts. Right. But that might not be what you mean.

[Brad]

So can you kind of walk us.

[Ginger]

Through, like, what that actually looked like to take this path that is not traditional. Right. And so we. We don't hear about it unless we go looking for that information. But what did that look like for you?

[Jessica]

Yeah, that's true.

[TJ]

So we were always savers.

[Jessica]

So we had a lot of money both in our retirement accounts and our outsider retirement accounts.

[TJ]

I was blessed to have recognized investing.

[Jessica]

Was important early on. So I had an after tax brokerage account, and I had learned enough from my own personal research to do some investing.

[TJ]

It was around the time that I started listening to Choose a Phi and read the Simple Path to Wealth that I realized how powerful the simple index fund approach was. And so really we started tracking our.

[Jessica]

Net worth is the big change that happened in 2018.

[TJ]

And we had just gotten married the year before. And so one of the things that.

[Jessica]

We agreed to and instituted was a quarterly money date to sit down and.

[TJ]

Go over, you know, where have we spent money? Where are we going to be spending money in the next couple of months.

[Jessica]

Making sure we're aligned on all of that stuff.

[TJ]

And then also, is there anything we want to change based on where we are? And is there anything that we're spending.

[Jessica]

Money on that we're not valuing? So it was having those discussions, and those are the specific questions that we.

[TJ]

Had on a page in OneNote. And we would just, you know, go.

[Jessica]

Down them, answer them every time. And so we've got a history from the last seven years of every quarter, what all of our accounts were worth and what our thoughts were, what our.

[TJ]

Expenses were going to be, making sure that we were aligned in that, and we were, on the whole, in really good shape as far as being well.

[Jessica]

Under our income, what we were spending.

[TJ]

You know, we actually found out, then we started tracking, and we're like, oh, we've got like a 40 to 70% savings rate, you know, depending on the year, but it was okay. How do we want to invest it. Which places do we want to be.

[Jessica]

Thinking about putting money?

[TJ]

I found out that my company has.

[Jessica]

The after tax option in the 401k.

[TJ]

And so we started saving even more.

[Jessica]

Money there and converting it to Roth. So there's all these like little things.

[TJ]

That we started intentionally doing and that kicked off in 2018 and just, you.

[Jessica]

Know, little decision by little decision helped us get to the point where we are now.

[Ginger]

I love that you guys took notes on your meetings.

[TJ]

That's awesome.

[Jessica]

I am very much a note taker. The ability to take good notes and remember where those notes are and go.

[TJ]

Back to them is something that has.

[Jessica]

Served me well both in my career and also at home. To help keep us aligned and help us go in the right direction.

[TJ]

It's been great.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Ginger]

Do you remember anything? And you can look back at your notes if you don't, that you're willing to share under that category of what we want to change in terms of like, oh, we're spending on something that doesn't have value or we need to make some changes around the budget, that kind of thing.

[TJ]

Yeah. So a couple of examples early on that we identified some where we wanted.

[Jessica]

To save some money.

[TJ]

So we realized the cell phone bill.

[Jessica]

Was expensive and we made the switch.

[TJ]

We couldn't do Mint Mobile because it.

[Jessica]

Was T Mobile's towers and those don't exist very much where we are.

[TJ]

But we were able to switch to the low cost provider, US Mobile and.

[Jessica]

That saved us hundreds of dollars a year.

[TJ]

I started carpooling to work, which saved.

[Jessica]

On gas money and the commute. I've had an hour plus commute to work as far as the drive every day for the last 13 years.

[TJ]

So that's certainly a larger expense than if I were a little bit closer to work. We also found that we were eating.

[Jessica]

Out, having fast food or going to restaurants pretty regularly.

[TJ]

And so we started buying more groceries and taking more packed lunches.

[Jessica]

We also found areas where we wanted to spend more.

[TJ]

So for example, we have a yard that's a little bit difficult to mow.

[Jessica]

And given how much I was working in overtime and other things that Jessica.

[TJ]

Was doing, we decided to hire a mowing company and also a company to.

[Jessica]

Take care of the pool.

[TJ]

So those are things where it still.

[Jessica]

Aligned with our values and was within the budget. And so we decided to spend more on those things and some of those.

[TJ]

We still continue today.

[Jessica]

All of the cost cutting measures we.

[TJ]

Continue today and the combination of the.

[Jessica]

Things just made sure we were aligned all along.

[Ginger]

The way was there anything difficult at first about spending more on some of those things?

[TJ]

So there's a certain bit of tension.

[Jessica]

When you have a goal that involves saving and then you have an action that involves spending.

[TJ]

So in some ways, yes, but we.

[Jessica]

Had talked about it and we talked about the pros and cons and how.

[TJ]

It affects our lives and the time.

[Jessica]

That it means that we get to have together in the sense of what we were spending on.

[TJ]

So it was a conscious and intentional.

[Jessica]

Decision to spend and we were aligned in that.

[TJ]

So it was a positive thing. And we were definitely happy to do.

[Jessica]

It, even though we knew that it.

[TJ]

Wasn'T the optimal path directly to the phi number. But our goal was never to shoot.

[Jessica]

Straight to the phi number.

[TJ]

The goal was to be aligned in.

[Jessica]

Our finances and in our life and recognize the value that the saving money.

[TJ]

That we were doing everywhere else was bringing to us.

[Ginger]

Yeah, seems like you did really well with that balance. I think about how with some of my friends, we say things like, okay, well, let's go out to coffee and just retire four minutes later than we were going to.

[TJ]

You know, I wonder, do you feel good about drinking the coffee if that's how you're discussing it?

[Ginger]

Well, I love your focus on, we're really enjoying that we get to spend more time together. And while the value is really evident now, that seems like a good, healthy way to approach that. And you really leaned into that word intentional. And so, so much of the spending we do that is mindless is the spending that ultimately we feel bad about. Right. So I could see how saying like, okay, well, I'm not going to mow the lawn myself unless it's going to be 18 more minutes until I can retire to instead say, okay, this is my life now also has value. And our relationship in this moment has value. And so, boy, we're really going to enjoy that now.

[TJ]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

One of the things that was important.

[TJ]

To make sure that we were aligned.

[Jessica]

In this on board together in the.

[TJ]

Financial independence plans is we both worked hard and come from a place where.

[Jessica]

We didn't have financial means to do a lot of things.

[TJ]

So talking about, okay, what do we.

[Jessica]

Want to do now that we have all these options?

[TJ]

It gives us an opportunity to really.

[Jessica]

Think about and make decisions from a place of alignment and excitement about what.

[TJ]

We'Re choosing to do.

[Jessica]

Because, you know, early on we didn't have options.

[TJ]

I mean, I can still remember before I got my first paycheck after graduating college, I had went on a trip.

[Jessica]

To Europe with Jessica that was soon after our first date.

[TJ]

I met her, and a month later we were in Europe together. So Jessica and I, both, as part.

[Jessica]

Of our college experiences, spent time in.

[TJ]

Germany, working and living there.

[Jessica]

I did it through an international co op program, which meant that I had.

[TJ]

A job over there and I was working. And she had a semester abroad as well as a job for a time. So we met each other at a.

[Jessica]

German club and only spoke German to each other for the first three months.

[TJ]

Of knowing one another.

[Ginger]

So romantic.

[TJ]

Then the first time I spoke English.

[Jessica]

To her was when I asked her.

[TJ]

Out on our first date because I was not confident enough in my German to be able to flirt. Yeah. So we went on that date and.

[Jessica]

One of the things she brought up was how her work was sending her.

[TJ]

On a trip to Italy and she was lamenting a little bit the fact that she was getting a company sponsored.

[Jessica]

Trip to Europe and she really didn't.

[TJ]

Have anyone to share it with or anywhere to go. And she has a different opinion on.

[Jessica]

How the conversation went. But I'm confident that she asked me to go with her.

[TJ]

Either way. A month later, we had planned and.

[Jessica]

Successfully executed a trip around Europe to different places we wanted to see.

[TJ]

So I booked my own flight. It was a period of time between graduation with my master's and starting work, and spent all the money that I.

[Jessica]

Had essentially to go over and meet.

[TJ]

Her in Italy and go see Prague and visit some places in Germany together. And she did all that at the.

[Jessica]

End of her work trip. So they paid for a round trip flight.

[TJ]

It didn't matter that the return flight was a couple of weeks later. So we got back from that much closer as a couple, excited about how much we shared. And then my job hadn't started yet.

[Jessica]

Right. So I had.

[TJ]

I spent everything. And I actually went to a close friend of mine and said, hey, I don't know if I'm going to have enough money at all to make it to my first paycheck. So he wrote me a $5,000 check and he said, if you need to cash it, you can cash it. And so, like, you know, I held onto that and, you know, was careful with my expenses during the month of time where I moved a couple of states away, got my apartment all set up, went to work, and then, you know, with well under $200 in my.

[Jessica]

Bank account, that first paycheck came in and I got to celebrate.

[TJ]

Oh, my God.

[Ginger]

Okay, hold up. 20 minutes ago you were like, we're natural savers. So it's just natural for us to have stashed away all of this money, this is not the same person who spends down is like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to make it to my first paycheck. So what's up? Were you just so in love?

[TJ]

I definitely was in love, yes.

[Jessica]

And obviously the decision was a good one.

[TJ]

What I'd say is I've never not enjoyed the life that I'm in and.

[Jessica]

The moment that I'm in, even though I know it's important to save. And I had money to be able to go to Europe, even though I.

[TJ]

Also had student loan debt and just.

[Jessica]

The expenses of living. But at the same time, it was.

[TJ]

Really important that as I was working a lot and working through college, that.

[Jessica]

Part of the money that I was.

[TJ]

Making didn't just go to whatever was.

[Jessica]

Needed that day, but that I also had some put away for other opportunities, other things that I wanted to spend on.

[TJ]

And going to Europe again and getting to spend time with a new girlfriend who ended up becoming my wife was.

[Jessica]

I mean, about the best investment I could possibly have imagined.

[Ginger]

Looking back on it, I see your point. Yes. And I can't help but think about Annie Duke. Have you read the Thinking in Bets book that Brad talks about?

[TJ]

I haven't. I've heard him talk about it all the time, but no, I've not read it myself.

[Ginger]

I think so many people who are listeners of Choose Fi are also familiar with Annie Duke. So we're going to explore this for a minute where she talks about how we often will conflate the outcome of our decisions with, like, the decision making process. And so if you ask someone, like, what's a good decision you've made? They always respond with something that turned out well. And the same thing with if you say, like, what is a bad decision? Always something that turned out poorly. Right. When in fact, the decision itself. Yeah, right. Because of how probability works. So we always think of it in the opposite of what I'm going to say. But what I think is, like, you made a bad decision and it had a great outcome. And I love that because I think also, like, I look forward to reading your book, which is, you know, beautiful bad decisions, because those are the things that also define our lives, you know, and bring so much beauty to our life. And I'm so glad that you were willing to really take a big risk and to think about what were your other resources if money wasn't going to be your resource and that was going to run out at the End of the day.

[TJ]

Yeah. So for listeners, I am not writing a book. I don't have that skill set, but I would almost, I would turn that a little bit.

[Jessica]

Do I see your point?

[TJ]

Like, sounds like it's a terrible idea. Spend everything you have and skate on through. But I had also accepted a job and knew that I had a $65,000 a year salary that was going to.

[Jessica]

Be coming my way. So it's a very short term risk.

[TJ]

And that's mitigated by my friend who's willing to help me make it that.

[Jessica]

Extra month or two till the paycheck comes in.

[TJ]

The other thing is I mentioned that.

[Jessica]

I'd lived in Germany.

[TJ]

So part of my college program at the University of Cincinnati was a mandatory co op.

[Jessica]

So they founded Cooperative Education.

[TJ]

You had to work to be able to graduate.

[Jessica]

So you had to have work experience in your field as part of the.

[TJ]

Degree that you got. And so, you know, you would know.

[Jessica]

What you were getting into.

[TJ]

But also you kind of proven and you have a lot of background on the resume. And so I had co op ed.

[Jessica]

I'd worked for a couple of different nuclear power plants. So I had this experience and I.

[TJ]

Was making, you know, at the time.

[Jessica]

What was really good money for a student, so 20, $25 an hour and.

[TJ]

Knew that I would be able to make a lot more.

[Jessica]

And then I signed up for the.

[TJ]

Program in Germany because I didn't know German and I wanted to learn the language. And so I did a six week intensive German course and I went over and I was making $5.45 US equivalent an hour. But I knew even though I was.

[Jessica]

Making less money, I was living in Europe, I was getting that experience.

[TJ]

And I mean I proved to myself that I could live over there with.

[Jessica]

That lower income and still have a wonderful experience. I visited 17 countries.

[TJ]

I really got so much of those.

[Jessica]

Memory dividends as Die with zero calls it.

[TJ]

And the experience I had there proved.

[Jessica]

That even if I'm spending the money and, or I'm not making much money, the life experience and the value that brings to me is so, so worth.

[TJ]

It that when I got to be.

[Jessica]

Able to make that decision again of should I go to Europe again in.

[TJ]

This time before I start work and have a year round obligation in my very last summer? Yes, absolutely. So maybe my prior experience helped me.

[Jessica]

Understand that the probability was better than it might seem at first.

[Ginger]

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Oh, okay. I think everyone is curious about your 6 week intensive language program.

[TJ]

Yeah.

[Ginger]

What, what? Tell us about that. Did it actually work?

[TJ]

Absolutely.

[Ginger]

Was this like, yeah, just tell us about it.

[TJ]

So, yeah, as part of the international.

[Jessica]

Co op program at the University of Cincinnati, in addition to helping place you.

[TJ]

In a job, if you can't find one of your own in a country that they support, they'll also give you the opportunity to sign up for a.

[Jessica]

Course that's a six week intensive language course.

[TJ]

So at the time that I was.

[Jessica]

Going through it, there were the options to take Spanish, Japanese or German.

[TJ]

And I already knew some Spanish from high school taking Spanish and Latin, so.

[Jessica]

That wasn't as interesting to me. I had no confidence that in six weeks I could learn Japanese.

[TJ]

And so I said, okay, German it is.

[Jessica]

And so it was part of the curriculum of sorts.

[TJ]

I had a six week period of time where, you know, from morning to night, all we did was go to.

[Jessica]

Class and spend speak German. Like we got in there the first.

[TJ]

Day and up on the board were a couple of phrases and you know.

[Jessica]

One of them was Wies Achtmann and there was a blank and then it said auf Deutsch. And so that's the phrase of how do you say blank in German?

[TJ]

And they were very clear.

[Jessica]

You need to learn this because this morning is the last time you're going.

[TJ]

To speak English in this class. You ask, if you don't know a word, how do you say that word in German?

[Jessica]

And then you start from there.

[TJ]

And so really immersing myself in it.

[Jessica]

By the end of six weeks, I.

[TJ]

Was, I knew German well enough and.

[Jessica]

We had native German speakers who were teaching the course.

[TJ]

So, you know, thankfully that helps a lot with pronunciation. And by the end of it, we.

[Jessica]

Had to give a full presentation PowerPoint.

[TJ]

Kind of thing in German to a couple of companies in the Cincinnati area, which has a large German cultural heritage. And I mean, at the end of my presentation, I actually had a vice president from one of the local companies.

[Jessica]

Come up to me and directly offer me a job from that.

[TJ]

He's like, hey, if you can learn German, you know, and you can present.

[Jessica]

This well, and you got the technical.

[TJ]

Back background, we'd love for you to work with us. So anything. Yeah, I mean, and the thing is there were 18 of us in that.

[Jessica]

Class and everybody learned German and everybody went to Germany for six months.

[TJ]

And, you know, it's just the communal support and the experience was just wonderful.

[Ginger]

I'm so curious because I'm one of those people who, I would really like to learn another language, but I'm too lazy. And so, and so I do Duolingo for two days, and then I stop. And so I'm always kind of like, okay, well, this is not the way for me. This isn't working.

[TJ]

So I'm always emerging is great. So you want to learn it.

[Brad]

Get in there, take the time.

[TJ]

Yeah, I love it.

[Ginger]

Okay, so we are having a good time and laughing about how bad you are at making decisions, but I want to transition us a little bit to a little bit more of a serious topic. I know that when we were talking about, are you retired or do you consider yourself retired? You had said kind of, and that there were a couple reasons where you weren't comfortable just saying, oh, yes, I'll never work again, or I won't work at all. And one of them was about medical expenses and how you didn't know what those were going to look like after you left your great company benefits. Can you talk us through that?

[TJ]

Yeah. So this is one of the areas.

[Jessica]

Of massive financial uncertainty in our lives.

[TJ]

So.

[Jessica]

Less than two years after my.

[TJ]

Wife and I got married, we had.

[Jessica]

To make a very unexpected, sudden trip to the hospital.

[TJ]

My wife got some scans of her head, and they came back and told.

[Jessica]

Us that she had a brain tumor that's needed operated on within the next two weeks or she might not survive.

[Ginger]

Oh, my goodness.

[TJ]

Yeah, that was absolutely unexpected, shocking. So we had to. We had to make plans for, okay.

[Jessica]

What does this look like?

[TJ]

How do we deal with it? So the brain surgery happened. We were lucky to have an excellent.

[Jessica]

Brain surgeon right in the area local to us. And a couple of weeks later, the results came back that it was cancerous.

[TJ]

And it was a particularly rare brain tumor, and she was going to have to go through treatment. So we started looking at, okay, radiation oncology, and what does that look like?

[Jessica]

And what does chemotherapy for this type of a brain tumor look like? And, you know, all of those kinds of things.

[TJ]

And it took a lot of time.

[Jessica]

For us to eventually wrap our hands around, like, and just mentally understand, okay, what is this? What does it mean? And how do we deal with it?

[TJ]

And what ended up happening was she.

[Jessica]

Ended up needing a second brain surgery to remove more mass.

[TJ]

It was honestly a miracle that during.

[Jessica]

The second surgery, both neurosurgeons agreed that.

[TJ]

They were going to take one more.

[Jessica]

Slice of brain and then they were going to stop. And that was all they felt comfortable removing. And they removed that slice. And the brain behind it looked normal.

[TJ]

And didn't look like it had any tumor. So just a huge blessing. And with that successful of a brain.

[Jessica]

Surgery, we had a lot more opportunity.

[TJ]

Than to plan for, okay, what does.

[Jessica]

Radiation treatment and chemo look like for the little tendrils that go out from the big mass?

[TJ]

But also gave us the comfort of.

[Jessica]

Knowing that on the scans, there's no longer any visible tumor, which is a huge blessing for anyone going through any cancer treatment. So then the next steps were to go through the radiation treatments and chemotherapy and the outpouring of support from friends and family for meals and a small gofundme that we used for that meal prep. And the initial hospital bills was just amazing. As it continued, though, I mean, we had more than a half million dollars.

[TJ]

In medical bills that came to our door. And even after insurance, we spent well over $50,000 in medical. And so that was the initial. And then they told us, hey, you.

[Jessica]

Know, brain tumors are kind of different and classified differently than some other cancer types. And this is not one that will ever tell you, goes into remission.

[TJ]

And so it's going to require lifetime monitoring. So what that means right now is that every six months, we go get an mri, and the next day, after a radiation technician has been able to.

[Jessica]

Read it and the doctor's ready to.

[TJ]

Talk to us about what it says, we go find out if everything is stable or not. And so it's a checkpoint. And so far, after the initial year.

[Jessica]

Of chemotherapy and everything, it's been a.

[TJ]

Checkpoint that we passed with gratitude and here, stable. But it's also something that where when we think about and reflect on it.

[Jessica]

It can really hit hard that, you.

[TJ]

Know, this is our life, and it's surprising and unexpected and not something we planned on. And it's definitely changed the way that we think about how we imagine our future together. And so for others who've had similar.

[Jessica]

Situations, and we have more than a half dozen family members who have had.

[TJ]

Cancer of one type or another, you know, it's very difficult to look forward.

[Jessica]

And say, yes, we're going to plan.

[TJ]

For retirement, when we don't know if.

[Jessica]

We'Ll both be there for retirement. And the thing is, none of us.

[TJ]

Know what the future holds. You know, I don't know if I'm going to be on this earth tomorrow. But having something like that, the diagnosis.

[Jessica]

And the studies with the median survivals.

[TJ]

And all those numbers can be particularly, I'll say, scary. Having the background that I have and having the background that my wife has.

[Jessica]

Helps us understand the medical literature better than most.

[TJ]

But it's still thinking back to the thinking in bets discussion we had earlier.

[Jessica]

You don't know. And you have to make the best.

[TJ]

Decisions with what you do know. So for us, we do know that.

[Jessica]

For the rest of Jessica's life, we're.

[TJ]

Going to be having high medical expenses.

[Jessica]

We're going to be spending about up to our out of pocket maximum every year, no matter what healthcare plan we're on.

[TJ]

So that changes our phi number when.

[Jessica]

You add in those expenses, especially when you leave a job that has great.

[TJ]

Healthcare and look for something on the open market. Though we don't worry about it with.

[Jessica]

Our faith, we do believe that we'll.

[TJ]

Be taken care of no matter what happens, and that everything's in God's hands. And we also know that we've done a lot to help be ready for.

[Jessica]

Unexpected expenses that might come up. And our saving has given us freedom.

[TJ]

And flexibility that would not be possible otherwise. So where we're at today is a point where we can say, yes, I.

[Jessica]

Can leave my job now and spend.

[TJ]

Time with Jessica when I know I can spend the time with Jessica. So it's very much what I want to do. And it makes the decision easier and more important and more urgent, I guess, to make sure that we're living this life to its fullest each and every day.

[Brad]

Yeah, I hear you on the that of course, none of us know what will happen. And also we all do know that we will all die. Like, yes, we have that knowledge.

[TJ]

Yeah.

[Brad]

But you guys understand it differently than most young people. Right. Like, most of us are very happy to have that thought kind of enter at the periphery and push it.

[TJ]

Oh, gosh.

[Brad]

With ice cream and duolingo and whatever. But like you said that word urgent, Right. It brought urgency to your life.

[TJ]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And I wonder if, if you can talk about that a little bit more about, like, what did it mean practically for some of the decisions you're making about your present and your future.

[TJ]

Yeah. So the deepest and hardest conversations that.

[Jessica]

Jessica and I have ever had occurred in that time period between the first.

[TJ]

Surgery and the second surgery because we.

[Jessica]

Understood what we were dealing with and we were knowingly going into another brain.

[TJ]

Surgery, which is obviously not something you agree to lightly. And I mean, the risks associated with that. We're talking about she might wake up.

[Jessica]

And not be able to move half of her body.

[TJ]

And that is a good likelihood that she'd have some amount of weakness for the rest of her life. You know, so there you're talking about.

[Jessica]

Physical life is different.

[TJ]

The chemotherapy, you know, it, it goes.

[Jessica]

After fast growing cells.

[TJ]

And in a young woman, fast growing.

[Jessica]

Cells Are the kind that allow you to have children. And they told us it was a less than 50% chance that we'd be.

[TJ]

Able to have a family after, you.

[Jessica]

Know, of our own, after we went through the chemotherapy for a year.

[TJ]

So we had that going through our.

[Jessica]

Minds and our conversations.

[TJ]

And then, you know, even if you talk about the, if maybe could we have a family?

[Jessica]

Because at the time when we found out she had the cancer, we were.

[TJ]

Trying to get pregnant and you know, the numbers said, you know what, even.

[Jessica]

If you do succeed in having a kid, she might not be there to see him or her graduate.

[TJ]

Like tough, tough conversations about the future. So, you know, we did our best to accept the things that we could not change. And that takes a lot of time. It takes prayer, it takes reflection.

[Jessica]

And then once you get to the acceptance point, then you say, okay, knowing.

[TJ]

This, what are we going to do? For us, that meant not losing hope, of course, and to get the best.

[Jessica]

Doctors we could and the best treatment we could and take care of ourselves.

[TJ]

And you know, one day, one month, one year at a time, see what life offered us. And I mean, our financial plan definitely changed from there. So Jessica has not returned to full.

[Jessica]

Time work since that occurred.

[TJ]

Gave her the opportunity to be a stay at home mom. She's done some part time work, but.

[Jessica]

Decided that, you know, being at home.

[TJ]

Is the place for her at least right now. And you know, that changes our savings trajectory as well. But you know, the finances are a way for us to align on our.

[Jessica]

Priorities, work on what we want to work on.

[TJ]

And in our case, because we had been intentional about our finances, it gave us this opportunity now to, well, both.

[Jessica]

So that she didn't have to come.

[TJ]

Back to work full time, but also that I have the opportunity to step away from a very demanding career, one that I really enjoy, but that's not more important to me than time with family.

[Brad]

Yeah, I see kind of two things. You have used that word acceptance a few times. And even when we very first started talking about this, you said this is our life. Like this ultimate radical acceptance line of this is what is happening. And so now I'm going to talk about, you know, what that means and what comes next. And then you brought in that word acceptance several times. And I also see when you say certain words like brain surgery, this shock on your face. Right. Because there's still this way, I think that it's just like so mind blowing in the worst possible way that it still maybe is surprising that this has happened. Is that partly what you're feeling or what that's like.

[TJ]

Yeah. So it is certainly still a surprise that this is the path our relationship.

[Jessica]

And Jessica's health and our lives have taken.

[TJ]

For sure, we could not have predicted.

[Jessica]

It, would not have chosen it.

[TJ]

But we also understand that we can't control the reality that it has occurred, that it happened. And so I guess there's an element of surprise and disbelief both in that it happened, but also in all of.

[Jessica]

The surprising good things that have come from it.

[TJ]

In the, you know, the revelation that.

[Jessica]

The mass that was taken out almost the size of a cue ball.

[Brad]

Wow.

[TJ]

And that afterwards, Jessica is still Jessica.

[Jessica]

You know, almost no change in her personality in her day to day life.

[TJ]

You know, once she recovered. It takes a while to recover, but.

[Jessica]

I mean, that's surprising and amazing.

[TJ]

Just the opportunity to see the support.

[Jessica]

And the love that so many people shared as she was going through the.

[TJ]

Recovery, that's not something that most people get. You know, you don't want the reason for it, but the experience of seeing all of that love so tangibly is a good surprise. And then, you know, now, years later.

[Jessica]

Having been able to naturally conceive when we were told there was, you know.

[TJ]

A low chance of that is, you.

[Jessica]

Know, one of the best surprises that.

[TJ]

We could ever imagine. So it's still hard to mesh the concept of something bad has happened and that we could not have controlled that as much as we might want to with the concept of no matter what happens, we are still able to intentionally draw close to one another and to our friends and family. And it's made us more intentional and more present and more able to spend.

[Jessica]

The time that we have meaningfully.

[TJ]

And so there's a bit of surprise, but there's a response to that that I think is also better and in.

[Jessica]

That way, more surprising than I could have imagined in the first place.

[Brad]

Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about how you got there, because that's not what happens to everybody, you know, that a terrible thing happens, and then they're able to kind of like be more grateful and notice all the good things that have come out of it. And while I mentioned the stunned look on your face, you are also, we can hear as you're talking about it, like, you are such a grounded person. And I hear that part of that is your faith, and part of that is this community that you have. You know, the people around you who stepped up and were able to show you how much they loved you. Are there other things I'm thinking about? You Personally that helped you to manage the stress of the situation?

[Jessica]

Yeah, I guess to a large degree. It's what you've already mentioned, the faith.

[TJ]

And the family that throughout my life.

[Jessica]

I've had great examples of no matter what happens, everything is going to be okay.

[TJ]

And that is as much a mindset as it is to see what the experience is and look back at it.

[Jessica]

You know, you can have that mindset.

[TJ]

As you go through it. And for me personally, my friends and.

[Jessica]

Family have always told me that I'm.

[TJ]

A naturally positive and optimistic person. I'm hopeful in whatever's going on. And being able to apply myself to.

[Jessica]

Help others in whatever is happening is something that brings me that. That grounded feeling.

[TJ]

I don't know if I have good.

[Jessica]

Words for it and you might have better ones than me even.

[TJ]

But the way I would describe it is whenever something challenging comes up, I look at how I can respond in a positive way.

[Jessica]

And by doing those actions, that proves that I have some amount of agency and that continues to ground me and.

[TJ]

You know, make me able to handle it better. So, you know, initially we got a.

[Jessica]

Diagnosis of a rare brain tumor.

[TJ]

Okay, well, I know how to do some research. I got a master's degree. Let me go look at medical articles and what's the latest information on this and find which, you know, University Hospital.

[Jessica]

Is publishing the most on it.

[TJ]

And we're going to go talk to.

[Jessica]

Them for the best path forward.

[TJ]

You know, that's little things, big things, whatever it is in challenging situations, owning.

[Jessica]

The ability to respond and respond positively.

[TJ]

Is something that for me is very helpful and helps me both emotionally and also just generally gets me moving in.

[Jessica]

The right direction as a response to it.

[Brad]

Yeah, I think that is a really insightful thing that you're saying. Right. That I can choose how I'm going to respond to this and that there's a lot of power in that in terms of how you feel about a situation. And it makes me think back to what you were saying about, hey, we saved all this money and now it gave us some options. And I think in the same way you were kind of doing the same thing with your outlook and with your mental health. You know, that like, hey, I'm always a person who's trying to look at what is hopeful in the situation. And that has served you in this time when it probably was hard to do that.

[TJ]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Well, I'm glad to hear that Jessica is okay. What has it been like to be doing the follow up appointments? Is that a ramping up of Anxiety as that comes up, or is that more routine now?

[Jessica]

Depends on who you ask.

[TJ]

So I would say for both Jessica and for me, the situation is it's.

[Jessica]

Not something that brings anxiety. It's something that we schedule, we put on the calendar. We know it's coming up, we get a scan and we get results.

[TJ]

Like, that's just, it's a matter of.

[Jessica]

Fact part of our lives.

[Brad]

What a win.

[TJ]

Yeah. And so, yeah, we can celebrate that now. Some of our family members, you know, they care very much and that's, you know, a blessing, and that's a little.

[Jessica]

Harder for some of them. You know, they're nervous for us and anxious themselves.

[TJ]

So of course, we always send out the updates after we get the results. And I think, you know, that's, that's how it's always going to be. The, there's the option and the, you know, opportunity for it to be nerve wracking, but it doesn't gain us a.

[Jessica]

Whole bunch to do that. So instead, today is the day where.

[TJ]

We actually get our results, where we.

[Jessica]

Went out to breakfast, we got a nice breakfast.

[TJ]

And then this afternoon we're going to go see the doctor and hear what.

[Jessica]

The latest scan says.

[TJ]

So we can, we can just take it one day at a time.

[Brad]

I hope you had a nice breakfast. I hope you got the extra coffee, even though it might put off your retirement.

[TJ]

No, we hit it. Right. This is.

[Brad]

Okay, well, let's close out by kind of talking about recommendations. So thinking about the reason we're having these conversations is helpful for other people to hear what other people have done and what were the resources that helped them along the way. And I love that you started by saying, okay, my wife wasn't actually really into this at first, and the reason was she didn't want to move to an island off of Seattle. Right. Like, she didn't see herself in the stories that she had listened to and seen. And so how powerful it can be for someone to hear your story.

[TJ]

Yeah.

[Brad]

So we know you've read A Simple Path to Wealth. You mentioned that. Are there other books that have been helpful to you either in terms of practically thinking about how to get where you are or mindset stuff? What have you got for us?

[Jessica]

For us, the biggest things have been the podcast episodes because they're more bite sized than books and there's so much.

[TJ]

That we can get through and there's.

[Jessica]

Too many to name there. The work optional term came from Tanya.

[TJ]

Hester in her book, but I think.

[Jessica]

Simple Path to Wealth removed a burden.

[TJ]

And made it clear for us a simple take action path forward.

[Jessica]

And that's definitely been the biggest impact.

[TJ]

So not really the books, but just.

[Jessica]

Sitting down and having those alignment meetings.

[TJ]

Once you have the basics really being.

[Jessica]

Consistent in looking and making sure you're continuing along the path that you said you were going to go along and.

[TJ]

That it's still where you want to go as, you know, life throws things at you and things change. That's definitely an actionable thing.

[Brad]

Yeah, it really stuck out to me at the beginning when you were talking about those meetings. You said that thing that really did something for us was tracking our net worth. And Brad has said that a couple times. And that's kind of what got me to start doing it too, because it doesn't seem like that should be, I don't know, meaningful, like, in terms of, like, okay, because you know what the small pieces are. So like, what's the big deal about adding them up on a piece of paper? And yet for me too, it actually was a really helpful thing to do. And so that can definitely be, I think, an action tip for people if you're not doing that already. I do that through Empower. What used to be personal capital. Is that what you do or you just using a spreadsheet?

[TJ]

Well, I preferred mint when it was around.

[E]

Oh, yeah, I know.

[TJ]

Because it was better at linking and categorizing things. We do have Empower and use that mostly to just quickly double check all.

[Jessica]

Of our expenses over the previous months and make sure we're saying what we need to say for where we're saving stuff.

[TJ]

We still put it into a onenote.

[Jessica]

Page and write the numbers down.

[TJ]

That way it's, you know, static.

[Jessica]

And since we're doing it every three.

[TJ]

Months, you can kind of click through.

[Jessica]

I started moving those to a spreadsheet.

[TJ]

So that we could plot it and see the changes.

[Jessica]

I think the reason though, that that's.

[TJ]

So impactful is because even though you.

[Jessica]

Know the little pieces when you're saving and that money is going into investment accounts, it's growing with compounding. And you don't see that unless you start tracking it. So that's the invisible part. You know, how much you put in.

[TJ]

But by actually putting it on a piece of paper, of here's how much it has grown, that can spur you on to keep doing it because the momentum it's building trying to think more about actionable items. One thing I would suggest, which we didn't do very well is considering early on, what does insurance look like after you stop Working if you want to do an early retirement. Because in the simplified plans, it's like.

[Jessica]

Oh, it'll just cost me what it currently costs me.

[TJ]

But of course, I have a greatly company subsidized insurance. And then, you know, the ACA plan ended up being a lot more when.

[Jessica]

You considered both premiums and out of pocket.

[TJ]

So that was an unexpected cost that.

[Jessica]

Wasn'T part of the original plan.

[TJ]

But again, one we're just accepting and not worried about.

[Brad]

Yeah. You know what was such a bummer to me was learning that HSA accounts, you can't use them for insurance premiums.

[TJ]

Okay.

[Brad]

I mean, I recognize if you don't have an HSA account, you're like, what? This isn't devastating. But to me, that seemed like such an obvious way, especially like for people in this community who are like, okay, I know the HSA account is so great for all these reasons. And then we also have this fear about, well, when I stop working, I'm not going to have this benefit. But it turns out you got to find another way.

[TJ]

Yeah. You have to have that money elsewhere.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

And after 59 and a half, it still has to come out for medical expenses or its income.

[TJ]

That to me was a surprise, which we've got plenty of. Plenty of medical expenses. So we will probably be able to.

[Jessica]

Drain our HSA pretty well.

[Brad]

But congratulations.

[Jessica]

Hooray.

[TJ]

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I would say another action will step is for us, growing the income was a big part of all of this. You know, at the end, me being.

[Jessica]

The sole provider for the family and working my income was more than both Jessica and I working together years earlier.

[TJ]

And so having that income growth and being able to focus on that side of the equation meant that, you know, we still don't need to be excellent at meal prep and the little expenses. You know, we can enjoy that latte at breakfast. Or, you know, in our case today we got plantains with some cream sauce at the restaurant because it sounded good and did we need it? No. But can we afford it? Yes.

[Brad]

Yeah. Well, that makes me think where you were like, okay, the income piece was so helpful, you said. One thing I wish we had thought about more was how much insurance was going to be. But what would that have changed if you had known that?

[TJ]

So as you get ready to exit.

[Jessica]

A job, there's, you know, the transition.

[TJ]

From out of a career and subsidized.

[Jessica]

Healthcare means that you need to purchase another.

[TJ]

So in that planning, picking the right day to leave impacts whether or not you have health insurance for the rest of the year. So for example, for me originally I was going to leave a little bit earlier than I finally decided on. And what I realized is staying a.

[Jessica]

Couple of extra weeks and ending at the beginning of a month is a.

[TJ]

Huge benefit because I get health insurance.

[Jessica]

Through the end of that month.

[TJ]

And then the other thing is retiring.

[Jessica]

In the later part of the year. It makes more sense to stay on.

[TJ]

COBRA and continue on that health plan.

[Jessica]

Than it does to sign up for.

[TJ]

A new health plan because we've already.

[Jessica]

Hit our out of pocket maximum for the year.

[TJ]

So I don't want to change insurance plans and then have to start with.

[Jessica]

A zero dollar towards my deductible.

[TJ]

Pay everything for the stuff that comes up. So the actionable thing there is just making sure that you've think about how everything comes together. And for us it does change what.

[Jessica]

Our final FI number is.

[TJ]

And you know, we'll be looking carefully over the next couple years of, you.

[Jessica]

Know, how much we're spending and make.

[TJ]

Sure that what we actually end up.

[Jessica]

Having as far as coverage is concerned matches up with what we're planning on spending.

[TJ]

And so it just requires us to be more intentional in our tracking and you know, if I have to do.

[Jessica]

Part time remote work, which is an option in my field, then I have to do that. And knowing that in advance is something.

[TJ]

That helps me be, I don't know.

[Jessica]

More open to it, more positive about.

[TJ]

It because it's totally okay. It's part of the plan because we've had time to plan.

[Brad]

Yeah, I love that as a kind of a closing message about being flexible and just about how we can get so scared about like, oh no, what if the 4% rule doesn't work? Or whatever, whatever the thing is, whatever the rule is. And to say instead, like, no, this is a dynamic process. We're intentional about how we're making decisions and we can change our mind about things.

[TJ]

Yeah, and it can be fun too. I mean, when I was making that.

[Jessica]

$5 an hour in Germany and took a trip with friends to Switzerland and.

[TJ]

The Happy Meal at McDonald's was like.

[Jessica]

15 Swiss francs and I couldn't afford that.

[TJ]

That day was let's go to the.

[Jessica]

Grocery store and get some bread and butter and continue walking around and enjoy.

[TJ]

It, the experience was still great and it was within the budget that we.

[Jessica]

Had at the time.

[TJ]

So yeah, that flexibility, I mean, if.

[Jessica]

You embrace it, it can help you have a great experience every day.

[TJ]

No matter what the day ends up looking like.

[Brad]

Yeah, well, thank you so much for being open to having this conversation in a real way and really sharing, you know, what your experience has been like, because I do think it's going to be so helpful for people to hear. Last time I was talking to Brad, we were talking about how awkward I am at the end of every episode. He didn't say that.

[Ginger]

I said that.

[Brad]

I was like, don't make me say something at the end. It's always, it's too weird. I don't know how to say goodbye. So, tj, you are going to carry us out in the last seconds here and close up the episode. What do you say?

[TJ]

Sure, yeah, I'll give it a shot. So a lot of this episode we've talked about me and my experience, but.

[Jessica]

I want to close it out with mentioning how amazing Jessica is as the.

[TJ]

One going through the real challenge in this.

[Jessica]

And she took a year of unemployment when she moved from her previous job.

[TJ]

To spend time with me.

[Jessica]

And then eventually that led to us getting married after the long distance dating we had done.

[TJ]

And I want to share that. Like, she wasn't on board with five.

[Jessica]

But she herself had taken a gap.

[TJ]

Year of fun employment. And so as you think about all.

[Jessica]

These things that you're hearing on this.

[TJ]

Episode and all of the episodes, you know, any resistance that you feel, you know, it's real resistance. But as long as you are still.

[Jessica]

Taking the actions, you're driving yourself in the right direction that'll lead to where you want to go.

[TJ]

So go take action. Hopefully you can be excited about it and know that other people are making it happen and you can make it happen too.

[E]

Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the Chooseify community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first, subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player, just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choose fi.com subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there. And I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox. So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community we have Choose a VI local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a vi.com local and you'll find a list of all of Those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with FI or you have a family member or a friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways choose a VI episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community and even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life and then choose a VI created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free. Just head to choose fi.comfi101 and again, thanks for listening.