Getting Personal with Personal Finance: Katie Donegan & Ginger | Episode 523

Summary

ChooseFI Episode 523: Getting Personal with Personal Finance Featuring Katie Donegan & Ginger

Release Date: December 2, 2024
Hosts: Jonathan & Brad
Guests: Katie Donegan & Ginger

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Introduction: Welcoming Katie Donegan

The episode kicks off with Ginger introducing Katie Donegan, a prominent figure in the financial independence (FI) community known for her work with Rebel Finance School and various speaking engagements. Katie is praised for her openness and wisdom, setting the stage for an honest and insightful conversation about personal finance and the emotional journey towards FI.

Katie’s Journey to Financial Independence

Overcoming Resistance:
Katie shares her initial resistance to the FI movement, describing herself as the "annoying one" who struggled to get her partner, Alan, on board. This internal conflict led to self-sabotage as she wasn't fully committed to the idea of financial independence.

"[...] on the outside, I was like, yes, let's do it. On the inside, I was like, not sure."
— Katie Donegan [01:29]

Discovery Through Mr. Money Mustache:
Katie credits the influential blog by Mr. Money Mustache for transforming her outlook. At 31, after reading Tony Robbins' "Money Master the Game," Alan and Katie delved into FI, adopting strategies that rapidly accelerated their path to financial independence.

"It was Mr. Money Mustache that came up with great arguments that won me over."
— Katie Donegan [03:25]

Achieving FI Quickly:
By aligning their savings and investments, the couple reached their FI number of £1 million invested by April 2019. Five years later, their net worth doubled to £2.1 million, allowing them to embrace a nomadic lifestyle without the constraints of work.

"Our net worth has doubled since then. We're at 2.1 million, so I'm feeling pretty good."
— Katie Donegan [06:35]

The Emotional Challenges Post-FI

Relearning to Enjoy Finances:
Despite achieving FI, Katie discusses the unexpected challenges of enjoying their wealth. The rapid increase in net worth contrasted with her ingrained habits of frugality made large purchases feel daunting.

"A 10 grand purchase still feels massive."
— Katie Donegan [08:11]

Navigating Relationships and Social Dynamics:
Katie explores how informing friends and family about their FI status altered social interactions. While most friends are supportive and some are also pursuing FI, there are moments of feeling like she's flaunting her success.

"It led to a conversation about financial independence, living life differently, how you could achieve it yourself."
— Katie Donegan [13:21]

Personal Growth and Self-Discovery

Confronting Perfectionism and Comparison:
Katie delves deep into her personal struggles with perfectionism and the habit of comparing herself to others. These patterns, rooted in childhood and reinforced in professional settings, posed significant hurdles even after achieving FI.

"Being best equals love and safety, whether that's true or not."
— Katie Donegan [34:20]

Finding Purpose Beyond Savings:
Realizing that financial freedom doesn't automatically translate to happiness, Katie emphasizes the importance of purpose. Launching Rebel Finance School provided her with a meaningful endeavor that aligned with her passion for helping others.

"Having that purpose and having something bigger than yourself makes all the difference."
— Katie Donegan [21:07]

Managing Stress and Building Consistency:
Katie acknowledges ongoing battles with stress and the need for consistent habits. Techniques like focusing on one task at a time and embracing small, daily progress have been pivotal in managing her perfectionist tendencies.

"One thing at a time has helped immensely."
— Katie Donegan [30:44]

Strategies for Personal Development

Embracing Self-Compassion:
Both Katie and Ginger discuss the importance of self-compassion as a remedy to perfectionism. Katie recommends Gay Hendricks' The Big Leap and highlights the transformative power of recognizing and altering self-sabotaging behaviors.

"I'm safe. I'm loved. That is what I'm going to start practicing."
— Katie Donegan [37:14]

Utilizing Resources for Growth:
Katie shares her current reading list, including The Chat GPT Revolution and Everything You Need to Know About the Menopause, But We're Too Afraid to Ask. She emphasizes the need to study to retain and implement knowledge effectively.

"I'm excited about understanding and preparing for the menopause."
— Katie Donegan [51:16]

Travel Insights and Recommendations

Favorite Destinations:
Katie and Alan express their love for Melbourne, Sydney, and various locations in South America, particularly Colombia. They highlight the affordability, vibrant culture, and the quality of local food as key attractions.

"The people are outgoing, confident, friendly. Up for a chat in the street with a random."
— Katie Donegan [58:52]

Concluding Thoughts and Recommendations

Book Recommendations:
Katie recommends The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks, focusing on overcoming self-imposed limits to success and happiness. She underscores the book’s relevance in identifying and combating upper limit problems.

"He talks about how we have an upper limit problem... it's been fascinating."
— Katie Donegan [55:53]

Ginger’s Self-Compassion Suggestion:
Ginger adds her recommendation for Kristin Neff’s Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook as a practical tool for building self-compassion and managing perfectionist tendencies.

"It's really essential for me. And the other thing I've been really noticing is I'm drawn to rereading books."
— Ginger [58:29]

Final Remarks

The episode wraps up with mutual appreciation between Katie and Ginger for the candid discussion. Katie encourages listeners to explore her work with Rebel Finance School, while Ginger highlights the importance of authentic connections and self-compassion in the journey toward financial independence.

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Notable Quotes:

• "We never felt like we were depriving ourselves. We were happy."
  — Katie Donegan [06:22]

• "Financial independence gives you the keys to freedom, but it doesn't tell you what to do with that freedom."
  — Katie Donegan [17:06]

• "Perfection is the aim. That's the goal."
  — Katie Donegan [41:07]

• "This is my experience... it's an uncharted territory."
  — Katie Donegan [24:13]

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Resources Mentioned:

• Books:

  • The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks
  • The Chat GPT Revolution
  • Everything You Need to Know About the Menopause, But We're Too Afraid to Ask
  • 4,000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman
  • Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook by Kristin Neff

• Websites:

  • Rebel Finance School: RebelFinanceSchool.com

• Podcasts:

  • ChooseFI Podcast Episodes:
    • Episode 100: Introduction to Financial Independence
    • Episode 523: Getting Personal with Personal Finance

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Connect with ChooseFI:

• Subscribe to the Podcast: Available on all major podcast platforms.
• Weekly Newsletter: Sign up at ChooseFI.com for insights and updates.
• Local Groups: Join a community near you via ChooseFI Local.

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Join the Financial Independence Movement:

Whether you're just starting out or deep into your FI journey, this episode with Katie Donegan offers valuable insights into the emotional and psychological aspects of achieving financial independence. From overcoming perfectionism to finding purpose beyond savings, Katie's story is a testament to the complexities and rewards of choosing financial freedom.

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Thank you for listening to ChooseFI Episode 523. Stay tuned for more actionable tips and inspiring stories to help you reach financial independence.

Transcript

[Ginger]

Hello, everyone. It's Ginger. I'm here today to have another personal conversation about personal finance, this time with the it girl of the financial independence movement. And by that, I mean everyone wants to be her, and everybody wants to be her friend. Yep, it's Katie Donegan. You may know her from the Rebel Finance school, or perhaps you saw her on stage at Economy this year, or maybe you heard her on the episode that we recorded in Vegas this past April. I hope you've heard her somewhere because she's wonderful and so open and has so much wisdom to share with us today. She's agreed to talk with me about things that can be hard to talk about, like mistakes and how painful this journey can be, even for someone on the other side of Fi. And also she's going to share with us her secret recipe for the best blueberry muffins. Just kidding. I made that last part up. But you never know. So let's get started. And welcome to Choose a Fi. Welcome, Katie, and thank you so much for agreeing to have this conversation.

[Katie Donegan]

Thank you. And thank you for that glowing introduction. I didn't recognize myself in most of that.

[Ginger]

Very humble, very humble. Well, let's go ahead and jump in. And like I said in that intro, I think a lot of people have heard you before or heard about you before, but let's give people a little bit of an introduction to how Katie came to fi.

[Katie Donegan]

Well, I was that resistant partner. I was like, the annoying one that everyone phones in and says, how do I get my partner on board? I was that person. And then when we talk about it now and Alan, my husband, says, oh, like, that was you, wasn't it? I'm like, was it? Was it? It's so not part of my identity now that it's hard to relate to the fact that I was that person. And now we try and help people and other couples through that. When they tell us that, it's like, oh, yeah, I was that person. So we first heard about financial independence, actually, through a Tony Robbins book. It's called Money Master the Game. Please don't read it. It's 800 pages too long. He could have boiled it down and said, index funds are great and work out how much you need to retire in about 50 pages. But it gave us the idea and gave us the number. And Alan had been scared off investing in the stock market through a bad experience with a managed fund years earlier. And he was like, oh, okay, I get it now. Let's do it. Let's go all in. Let's work towards financial independence. And I was like, yeah, yeah, sounds good, Sounds good. But then I had this weird feeling of guilt of why should I be allowed to do that? And as I often do with Alan, I'll say, yeah, yeah, yeah, sounds great. But then in my head, be thinking, oh, this is a bit weird. And weirdness, weirdness, weirdness. What if this happens? What if that happens? What will people think of me? And so, yeah, on the outside, I was like, yes, let's do it. On the inside, I was like, not sure. And then the danger is I start sabotaging because I'm not actually all in. So that's great fun for a relationship.

[Ginger]

So you were the resistant partner, but something changed. So was that Alan came up with great arguments that won you over, or something else happened inside you?

[Katie Donegan]

It was Mr. Money Moustache that came up with great arguments that won me over. Because we told a friend about what we discovered reading the Tony Robbins book, and he said, oh, if you're into that, check out this Mr. Money Mustache guy. He's almost got, like, a cult following. I think you really like him. So I read all of Pete's back catalogue. That's all I did in my spare time on my commute to and from work, I was reading his blog. I was on the train not driving, so, you know, it was legit. And, yeah, I just spent all my time, all my spare time with the man. I mean, I didn't know him, I'd never met him, but it was like he was my friend and was telling me, you'd be a silly person not to do this. Like, in his writing, you're like, of course. It makes perfect sense. This is a thing, and this is the maths, and this is how you do it. So after reading all that stuff, it's almost like I was the one. Like, I was the one reading all the blogs, listening to the podcasts, because I kind of needed to. To get comfortable with it and to understand it. So I think that's why I switched in my head and, like, well, I'm the one that's into the blogs and the podcasts, so, yeah, there's a bit of revisionist history going on.

[Ginger]

So how old were you when you were reading Mr. Money Mustache?

[Katie Donegan]

31.

[Ginger]

Mm. And how old are you now?

[Katie Donegan]

I'm 40.

[Ginger]

You did it so fast. You must have been a pretty good saver before you were reading those.

[Katie Donegan]

Yeah, we were already both very good savers. And then, you know, the compounding curve for money. I think there's also a compounding curve for learning and skills and attitude. And when we discovered financial independence, Alan was already quite far along that curve. So when he discovered this new idea about financial independence, he was like, oh, let's just do that. Like, he didn't have any weirdnesses or beliefs in that area that would hold him back. So he was like, well, let's do it. And we had skills and we both got quite far with me and my career and him with his business to be able to accelerate and to be something to focus on, of increasing our earnings as much as we could. So once we were actually both on board and not just the pretend one that I had said, we would spend hours having conversations about how could we get there quicker, what could we do? And one thing was for me to quit my job and become a contractor, which I did, which managed to triple my salary.

[Ginger]

Wow.

[Katie Donegan]

So once we did find out about it, be on the same page and aggressively go for it, then it was very quick. I say aggressively go for it. We just kept our spending about the same as it had been, despite me tripling my salary, because we had this reason for it. And we never felt like we were depriving ourselves. We were happy. We still did travel, we still did stuff. I even bought smoked salmon.

[Ginger]

Every now and again, are you comfortable telling us what your fine number was? And when you got there?

[Katie Donegan]

Our fine number was £1 million invested and we got there in April 2019.

[Ginger]

So it's been five years.

[Katie Donegan]

It's been five years, yeah.

[Ginger]

That's incredible. Do you have any regrets about that number? Like, I'm curious how you got to that number. And then I think so many people feel like, well, is that really the number? And what if our expenses change so much, much? And so after having sort of lived that life for five years, how do you feel about that actual number?

[Katie Donegan]

Well, our net worth has doubled since then.

[Ginger]

You're feeling good?

[Katie Donegan]

We're at 2.1 million, so I'm feeling pretty good. And actually we're working to spend more. Our 40 grand was based on our lifestyle, living in the UK and no matter what we did, it always came out at 40 grand a year. It was bizarre. So shortly after we hit financial independence, we decided to become nomadic full time and travel the world. And, yeah, as I said, we've actually been working to spend more and enjoy the money more. I don't want to be the richest person in the graveyard. Yeah, I've seen people that don't want to spend and I would go as far as say that they're cheap. They have the money, but they don't. They're not enjoying it. And I'm working to enjoy it because, like, what was the point in doing all this if I can't enjoy it now?

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

Which in itself is a challenge.

[Ginger]

Yeah. Tell me a little bit about the block to enjoying it. Is that mostly about fear around? Oh, no. Like, we might need this or is it. Hey, I'm not used to it and so I feel weird about it, to use your word. Or is it something else?

[Katie Donegan]

I think as I'm not used to it, I think it's training that I've trained myself to not splash out, to not spend big amounts of money. And it's this weird thing that because of the volatility in the stock market, our net worth can change by tens of thousands of pounds month to month. But to me, a 10 grand purchase still feels massive.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

So it's that weird disconnect that it feels like a big number on the spending side, but quite a small number on the net worth side. And. Yeah. How do you get comfortable with that? How do you be like, okay, now's the time to spend it, to enjoy it?

[Ginger]

Mm. I have to ask because I think everyone wants to know, so when you said, oh, actually our number has doubled, is that entirely due to just the markets being crazy lately or is that side projects or is that something else?

[Katie Donegan]

The market has done very well. Yes. And we've only been withdrawing a little bit of it because Alan still owns half of Rebel Business School, so. Earns money from that.

[Ginger]

Gotcha. Okay.

[Katie Donegan]

That was never the plan we always planned on. Just, you know, we just get to our number and be like, see ya. But his business continues to work and he owns half of it, so we get money from that.

[Ginger]

Yeah. I wonder, you said when Alan introduced the idea to you that it sort of felt like, hey, why do I get to do this? Or why do I get to have this? I wonder how that has shown up in your life, especially since, like, it's not something you're thinking about anymore, but something that you had to tell people and tell your friends and tell your family. And what has that been like?

[Katie Donegan]

Yeah, because the weirdness was, I think a lot of, how are people, why should I be able to do this and my friends aren't doing it? Why do I get to be free and they're not? So I think most, if not all of our friends are very supportive and we have such different lives to our friends in the UK that, I mean, some of my closest friends I went to school with. So we've known each other a very long time, and they kind of just go, oh, what the Donegans up to now? What crazy stuff are they doing now? Like, they're kind of used to it and it's become part of our brand with them. And actually, I think most of our friends now are in this financial independence world. Either they've achieved it or they're working towards it. So I don't ever feel. I was about to say, I don't ever feel weird telling people, but that would be a complete lie. I do feel sometimes I go in, like, into show off mode, and people are like, oh, what do you do? And I'm like, well, I'm retired, actually. You know, just like, strangers that ask.

[Ginger]

But that's harder to do with the people that know you or people who you want to be close to.

[Katie Donegan]

I don't know if it is hard, actually. I don't find it hard to tell people, but I do have this feeling in my belly of, it's weird. I say weird a lot, don't I? Everything's weird.

[Ginger]

But I think I understand why you're using that word, because it is unconventional. Like, it's so weird. It's so different than what we are used to seeing. And I asked that question about your friendships because I just think I would be really shocked if one of my friends who is my age said, I'm retiring. Right. And vice versa. And so I think that has to be an emotionally charged conversation that has to change the dynamic in some way. Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

I think because we've publicly said this for a while and we have our rebel finance school where we're teaching people about money. I'm kind of used to talking about it.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

So, yeah. And actually, I found telling people what's going on and telling people what you're doing can really help them, because not everyone's heard about financial independence. So how selfish am I that I'm not gonna at least drop a little comment in a conversation with a stranger to see if they bite on it? Makes me think of the other day. We're in a. In a sauna as you do. As you do in a hotel. So there was another couple in there. We got chatting. They asked where we were from and said, well, originally the uk. We travel full time now. And that pricked their ears up and chatting away. They went off and then came back into the sauna. And the guy was like, I've been thinking about what you said. If you don't mind me asking. How are you able to do that money wise? Like, what do you do for work? And I was like, okay, this guy's interested. So it led to a conversation about financial independence, living life differently, how you could achieve it yourself. And that felt so gratifying for me and Alan. They were a young couple in their early 20s, and if they act on what we told them or if they pursue the idea we've completely changed their lives through a chance encounter in a sauna and then a Jacuzzi. And that feels really nice.

[Ginger]

Yeah, I feel like, so much excitement just hearing that story, like, imagining being that person on the other side. And I think I am just hungry for those stories of people who have done it differently because, like I said, we just don't see them. And I'm wondering when you were starting to think about this, where did you see those stories? I mean, I know you read Mr. Money Mustache, so you got some of that there. But were there other people either in your real life or books or blogs that you helped you to think like, oh, yeah, I can see how they're doing it or how it can be different.

[Katie Donegan]

I don't really know anyone or I didn't know anyone in the real world. Alan had family friends that had retired in their 40s, but I didn't. I think I was so young when we knew them. I was like in my early 20s and was quite closed off to thinking about that stuff. I was still just figuring out how to walk and eat at the same time. You know what you're like in your early 20s. You're like, I can't cope with life.

[Ginger]

But how incredible that you're like, yeah, I didn't have a bunch of resources. I just leapt. I just, like, tried this thing.

[Katie Donegan]

Well, yeah, I think, yeah, reading Mr. Money mustache cover to cover helped. And then we went to Ishitakwa in 2016 and met him. JL Collins Brandon Mad Fientist Carl Mr. 1500 and I think that really helped. So we did meet people in real life quite early on. And I can't remember needing that in my research. I can't remember needing to hear that social proof. I think it was more that I wanted to bounce the ideas around them to understand our situation.

[Ginger]

One thing I really appreciated about your take on things when we were in Vegas is you were really open about, hey, when you reach your number or when you get to quit your job, your life isn't going to change in the ways maybe that you think it's going to change and you're not going to be nonstop happy all of the time. And I wonder if you could talk us a little bit through how you came to that conclusion.

[Katie Donegan]

I came to that conclusion through a hard experience that I had. So I think a lot of us who don't or didn't love our jobs have this financial independence number and target as well. That's going to make me happy. That's going to solve all my problems. And I think if other people are anything like me, they kind of know that's not true. They kind of know. Well, it's just a number they kind of know and have heard other people talk about it because it is talked about extensively. Isn't it in this community that the number doesn't make you happy? The still going to be you. And I knew that and I still did it. I still thought, I'm going to get to there. And I'm just, you know, life's going to be easy. I'll be on easy street is almost to the point. It's like, well, I won't have any problems. You know, I'll just be blissfully happy.

[Ginger]

I think that is so that striving is like so human. And so there's no amount of cognitive, like trickery that is going to make that go away. And it makes me think, is there something about that dream that helps to motivate us to make effort?

[Katie Donegan]

Yeah, maybe you need to believe that in order to go for it. So on the one hand, I want to shake people and be like, no, I want to like save them from that pain. But actually you're right. Maybe you need that to have the motivation.

[Ginger]

And is the pain. Oh, I got to that place and then there was this disconnect between how I thought I should be feeling and how I actually felt.

[Katie Donegan]

Yes. And I think the pain for me was that I hadn't done the personal development that I could and should have done to be happy. Like, I hadn't really worked on my happiness. So why do I suddenly expect that I'm not going to work and therefore I am blissfully happy. Like all my. All my problems were with that job and now I don't have the job. And hang on a minute, I'm still feeling similar way, if not worse. Because now I have all this time with myself and I have all this time with Alan and all my patterns and weirdnesses. There's that word again. Are coming out. Because financial independence gives you the keys to freedom, but it doesn't tell you what to do with that freedom. And now I have, you know, 24 hours a day with myself with no distractions and with Alan, and I'm figuring stuff out and it's spewing over him. And, yeah, I was unhappier. Yeah, because I had to deal with this stuff that I hadn't dealt with. Had to deal with the behaviors and the ways of interacting with Alan, the ways of, oh, now I have to make up my own day. I don't have the enforced structure of a job. And I went through a big thing of not wanting to commit to anything. It's like, well, I have freedom now. So if I commit to doing this project or if I commit to, I will be in this place or meet this person every Wednesday night. Well, that's not freedom, is it? That's being tied down. But if you never commit to anything, that's not a good life. That's empty, that's just floating around. And I don't know, for me, this is my experience.

[Ginger]

You do know, though, like, I think you're saying something so profound where you're saying, okay, we're using this word happiness, but that's not really the thing about having a meaningful life. And so it can't just be about pleasure or seeking pleasure. And part of having satisfaction is about making commitments, is about making effort. And we often think, especially because of our experiences with work or with paid work is like, effort is bad. So I don't want to do effort, you know, but then that's the very thing that allows us to experience satisfaction and meaning. And so to hear you talk about it, you're like, oh, I don't know. But you do know.

[Katie Donegan]

Yeah, I was paid to do effort. Now I don't have to do effort, so leave me alone. And Alan's there saying, oh, we could do X, we could do Y, we could do Z. We could, you know, create something cool. We could help all these people. And I would do what I did when he. Or when we were first talking about financial independence and go, yeah, sounds great. Let's do it. In my head, thinking, I don't want to do this. I don't want to. Whether it was as conscious as that, probably not. But, yeah, then sabotaging it. And what I found is having that purpose and having something bigger than yourself makes all the difference. So when we started Rebel Finance School, which, of course I resisted doing because, you know, that's. That's the way things go, that gives me so much joy and happiness because we've created something where I get to help people. And I think that's such A big thing, that it has to be something bigger than just you. I get to use my experience to help people. I get to use my technical, like spreadsheets and making data visualizations. Like, I love doing that. I would do that on my own. I do do that on my own the very first time. Alan said, well, let's share what you've created on this data visualization on our blog and tell the world and maybe it will help people. I'm like, well, that's weird. Why would other people be interested in this? And he's like, you've got, you have some gold here, Katie. You have some insights that you've poured over this data for days, if not weeks. Why would you not share it? And it's that different way of thinking that Alan's had or developed in himself that has really helped pull us towards that positive direction. Rather than my instinct or my training of, you know, just leave me alone. I don't want to talk to anyone or I don't want to commit to anything. But yeah, that's where the joy is, that's where the juice is. And it doesn't have to be something that you have created. Either join someone else's cool project that already exists or have a chat some other people and be like, I feel like helping X group of people or this problem on the planet, let's see what we can do. And I think that joy of using your skills in a way that helps other people and using your skills and or your hobby in a way that helps other people, that's where the magic is.

[Ginger]

Yeah. One thing I think is really interesting is how bad we are at knowing what's gonna make us happy on a day off, for instance. I mean, I think that's something that most people listening can probably relate to. And I am laughing at you saying, like, just leave me alone. Because that's where I, that's the position I come from. Right. It's like I just want it to be quiet. I just want to lay on the couch. I just want to do nothing. But then when I have that opportunity, like it feels super good for 20 minutes and then I start to feel quite not great. And so one thing that I've had to learn is really like how to direct my attention. And it can be difficult because Ginger the day before has to really be on board with like, Ginger the day after is going to want to do something. And so I have really changed what my days off look like because I have put in commitments. Hey, I have coffee with this group of People, you know, every single week. And now I've gotten used to it. But there was this time when it was like, oh, no, why have I. Why did I make a date? You know, leave me alone. I don't talk to anyone. But it really took such. It took it not going well for quite a while before I was like, I have to be really proactive about how I schedule leisure time. And it feels like it should be the opposite. And so I feel like what you're saying is sort of the bigger piece of that. Right. I'm talking about a day off. And you're like, no, now, what if that was a life? And I could imagine that same feeling of, like, if you have nothing, it could feel really great for about six minutes. And then it's like chaos and depression, you know, like, we need to be doing some kind of meaningful work. And, you know, work is a charged word, but effort, some sort of effort to make us feel good.

[Katie Donegan]

Yes. I'm so happy that you said that. You didn't figure it out straight away, and Sounds like you're still figuring it out.

[Ginger]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

Because it does take trial and error and figuring it out, and it's kind of uncharted territory, what we're all trying to do. And you're absolutely right. Making decisions for future you is really tricky. It's like, well, I don't know how I'll feel next Friday. And when someone's asked me, do I want to hang out, it's like, I'm going to have to guess whether future me wants to do that or not. And I might get there and be like, past Katie, I'm really annoyed with you for making this commitment. But, yeah. And I think that's where people might struggle that are listening to us talk about that, saying, I've got a really stressful job, I want to get to fight, and I just want to do nothing. And you're telling me that I have to do something. And are we saying to those people that just need that decompression time, well, you. Sorry, you can't have that. You've got to get off the couch after 20 minutes, which I think the answer is no. What do you think, Ginger?

[Ginger]

Well, did you have a period of time after you quit your job where it actually did feel really good to kind of do nothing?

[Katie Donegan]

I quit my corporate job and went straight into helping Alan with Rebel Business School.

[Ginger]

Straight into it.

[Katie Donegan]

Straight into it. And from then, I don't think I ever enjoyed doing nothing. And what does doing nothing mean? You're not Literally just sat on the couch. Whether that means, you know, visiting friends, going for a walk. It just felt empty very quickly, but still felt resistance to committing to anything. Still wanted to kind of hoard that time. It was almost this scarcity around time. Yes. Now I have it, the hoarding, and then, oh, but now I've got too much of it and now I'm bored. Like, it was such a swing between those two. Like, don't put anything in my calendar. Okay, Got a blank calendar. What am I going to do today? I've got to make something up.

[Ginger]

Well, I wonder what it looks like now. Five years in, you have these different projects, you travel around, you do these things. Is there still some kind of rest built into that schedule or built into your day in the same way that we who are working have weekends? Is that something that is still a part of your life or what does rest look like?

[Katie Donegan]

She's laughing. I'm giggling because I don't have a good answer for that, I think, because there's now no distinction between work and play.

[Ginger]

Yeah. Is that, like, wonderful or terrible?

[Katie Donegan]

Both. Because we're into it. Because we're, you know, when we're working on Rebel Finance School, when the Rebel Finance School is running, we'll work 12, 14 hours a day on it and almost don't want to have any time off, which is dangerous. We need to rest. But if what you're doing lights you up and you're passionate about it, you don't want to rest, you don't want a day off. And I feel like I get very itchy feet if we do do something else, which I think actually I need to work on that because I need to get better at looking after myself and my morning routine. When we were running Rebel Finance School this year went completely out the window. I would just wake up and be like, right, what do we need to do? What do we need to do to get ready? What resources do we need to make to go alongside the course? I didn't look after myself. I didn't take the time to, yeah, look after my health, have some quiet downtime to just breathe and think. Which part of that is a pattern I'm really working on recently, which is about stressing about stuff. So when I quit my job, I was like, well, job equals stress. Job's gone. Therefore, no stress.

[Ginger]

Seems like a solid equation.

[Katie Donegan]

No seems solid, doesn't it? Doesn't work like that. I stressed about my job because of the way I was thinking about it. I don't think my job was that stressful. I brought stress to the job. And I saw that so clearly when I quit my corporate job and went to help Alan in his business and people weren't stressed. And I was like, hang on, job equals stress. Something is not competing here. It's always like, I wanted to take stress on for those other people. I wanted to be like, here, have some of mine. You clearly don't understand this job thing. But then when job was gone, whether that was corporate job or helping Alan, there was still stress. It was like, ah, it's me, it's not the job. Which I think we got to be really careful and not say almost like, attach it to your identity and not say, I'm a stressful person, because then that feels harder to change. But to say, well, this is a pattern. I do. I stress about things.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

And I still do it. Even though the things that I put on my list of what I want to do or achieve or have fun with is all stuff that I've put on. I have free, pretty much free choice of what I do with my days. And I still stress about it. I'm still like, oh, I haven't replied to every single message. I'm not on top of my correspondence. I haven't replied to all those texts. Oh, that person emailed. It's such a nice email. And I haven't replied. Stress, stress, stress. And I think a lot of that is worrying about what other people think of me. It's like, oh, Ginger sent me a message and I haven't replied in a week, therefore she thinks I'm a terrible person. Is that what you think, Ginger?

[Ginger]

You're reading my mind right now. No, just kidding. I love what you're saying about how instead of saying, like, I'm stressful, like, I have this pattern because then that means that I can disrupt that pattern. I can create a new pattern. I can do something different. And I hear you saying, like, I haven't. I don't live a stress free life. And that's probably good. We probably need some of that. But it definitely sounds like that's something that you've gotten better at. And I'm wondering if that is about the intention that you brought to it, like recognizing that pattern or if there are habits that you have specifically put in your life that have helped you to manage that stress or that have gotten you further along on that.

[Katie Donegan]

I'm getting better. A few kind of mantras have helped of one thing at once. You know, we get overwhelmed when we try and do several things at once. Or you're doing one thing and thinking about the seven things that are next or that you could or should have been doing. So that's definitely helped. And as well repeating to myself, well, I can only do what I can only do, and then I'll come and maybe do a bit more the next day. That kind of consistent energy is so important and something again, that I haven't quite mastered of. You know, if I just do half an hour to push a project on each day, how much progress you would make would be astonishing. Versus those bursts of energy of like almost a manic energy of like, I've got to do these 17 things that I wasn't doing yesterday because I allowed myself to rest.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

Which I think is why I'm like, I have been anti rest because of that stress. I was like, well, I'm screwing over tomorrow's Katie if I'm not doing stuff now. But there's no deadlines. I've made all this stuff up. It's all a prison of my own creation, which I know, and I'm still trapped by it. And that is infuriating.

[Ginger]

I think it's so smart that you've brought up that word consistency, you know, when you're talking about stress and changing any kind of pattern. Because when you think about how many times in your life you did it this other way, you know, you saw, you experienced challenges in this other way. Like, of course, it would take a big undoing, a consistent effort to sort of see that in another way. So, yeah, I really appreciate that word that you use there. I wonder if you could tell us about any other mistakes that you feel you made leading up to Fi or even after fi.

[Katie Donegan]

The other biggest mistake that I've made and continue to make is comparison. So in my family, I've got two brothers, we were constantly compared with each other and constantly compared with the outside world. So I played football, soccer, growing up, and my dad was so supportive. He took me to every practice, to every game, and he also compared me against the other players. What I didn't realize at the time was how good a team I was in. So he would compare me and I would come up short because I was surrounded by these excellent players. And it wasn't until I played in a different team, I was like, oh, I'm actually pretty good. But that again, came from comparison. And I think we're trained. Or I was trained to do that. And it came from a good place with my dad. He wanted to help me to improve. He wanted to be like, well, you're not quite as good as so and so, but like not in a, not in a malicious way, but in a. Oh, you could improve.

[Ginger]

Sure.

[Katie Donegan]

And I think that comparison that happens at school of like who's top of the class then in college or university. It happened when I worked at Deloitte. Me and my peers were ranked against each other. There was a ranking system. How do you rank yourself other than comparing? Like, that's the only way that that's possible.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

So I think I coded in from a young age that being the best was what got me love. And if I have love, then I'm safe. So being best equals love and safety, whether that's true or not. Well, it's not true. I was loved regardless. But that's what I believed. And this is going to sound very dramatic, but then if I'm not the best in something and being the best equals safety and love, if I'm not the best, that's a threat to my survival.

[Ginger]

Yeah, you're in danger.

[Katie Donegan]

If you take that equation and you know, now to my 40 year old self, if someone else is better at Monopoly than me, is that really a threat to my safety and am I going to die cold on the streets? I don't think so. Yeah, but I still bring that pattern through. But it worked really well for me when I felt I was the best. So I was very good at school. You know, I was top of the class, I was good at music, I was good at sport. I look around at my peers and I'm like, yeah, I'm doing well, I'm the best. It doesn't work so well when you don't think you're the best. And when I first met Alan, he, I thought I was better than him. You know, I was doing well at university, I was doing very well playing football. So I was like, okay, doing well. I did not like it when he.

[Ginger]

Started being successful because then where do you fit in?

[Katie Donegan]

Exactly. I'm the good one, I'm the best one. I'm the one that gets attention and love for that. So there's two ways to respond to that. So one would be, okay, I need to get better, I need to work on myself. I need to somehow raise myself to be the best again. Or the easier, more destructive way is to pull that other person down. And that's exactly what I did to Alan. He'd be all happy and excited about something and I would just, yeah, pull him down and bring him back down so that I could be better. And that's not good. Like, that's not who I am.

[Ginger]

Yeah. But as you say, it was so that you could feel safe even if you didn't recognize that. And I think, you know, I appreciate your term of like, gosh, this sounds dramatic. But everybody, I think, knows that feeling, even if it's not someone close to us, that it's almost panic of, like, this person is doing so well. And it makes me have this feeling of scarcity about my own life. And just like, it's a really hard feeling. And so I think, of course, we do things to get rid of that feeling.

[Katie Donegan]

Yeah. And what I've realized recently is that there is a third way of dealing with that, which is.

[Ginger]

Thank goodness. Tell us the third way.

[Katie Donegan]

Which actually, in preparing for talking to you today, really helped, actually, because I was like, well, how am I going to talk about this and help me to actually realize some stuff that hopefully will help other people. So the third way was or is to spot what's happening in the moment, which takes some practice. But the minute you feel that, I don't know, for me, it's kind of a tightness in my belly or like a grr. Like a grumble. Like, don't like this. So having that awareness and then just reminding yourself, I'm safe, this is not a threat to my survival. Whether someone else is successful or I even deal with emotions like, Alan's happier than me. Oh, I'm not the best at being happy. Alan's more joyful than me. I better pull him down. Terrible. So I'm safe. This doesn't say anything about me, about my lovability. This is some old programming. It no longer serves me. I'm safe. I'm loved. That is what I'm going to start practicing because I only came up with that this morning.

[Ginger]

Yeah. It feels so ironic or interesting. You know, I think that we. You've mentioned this lovability piece and like, oh, we want to be accepted and loved so hard. And yet I think about you at the Vegas event and how much everyone loved you. And the reason that they loved you was not because you were the best at everything. It was because the very opposite. That you were willing to be vulnerable and say, like, here are things that I've struggled with. And of course that's true for all of us. Like, we think, oh, if I'm just perfect, you know, then she'll want to be my friend. And of course, no one wants to be friends with the perfect person. Like, I don't want to be friends with her, you know, Like, I'll just realize how terrible I am. But when you see someone's, like, realness, that. That is so compelling, and that is. That is what's so lovable about us.

[Katie Donegan]

Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that. Made me feel quite emotional, because perfectionism is one of my other big mistakes, if you call it mistake that I'm working on as well. And you said no one wants to be friends with the perfect person. I think, like you said, there is that comparison, but also, that isn't real, is it? Yeah, I think I try and be perfect with Alan, which. No one's perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. So, okay, if I need to be perfect and I've made a mistake, I hide the mistake or lie about the mistake. Well, that doesn't lead to, you know, connection and love and intimacy. That leads to the opposite. That's. Well, you're lying to me about something that you've done or.

[Ginger]

Yeah, it's protective but not connective. Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

All these patterns that we're trying to do or playing out to get love do the opposite, and it's infuriating. It's like, let me compare myself to everyone else. Well, that breaks connection. Let me be perfect. Well, that breaks connection because you're not being authentic, as you said.

[Ginger]

Yeah, so you said perfectionism is something that you are working on. What does working on it look like?

[Katie Donegan]

What does working on it look like? Spotting it, being human, acknowledging that I've made mistakes. So there's almost this fear of saying that I messed up or made a mistake because, you know, what if I get rejected because I say that I did something wrong? I think, again, perfectionism is something I was trained in as well. My dad would repeat to me, like, perfection is the aim. That's the goal.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

So then again, that's coded in. It's just unpicking all that training. Yeah. I don't have as coherent an answer on that one.

[Ginger]

It's so constricting. I mean, to use your word, it's another jail. You know, it just makes our world so small to be in that perfectionist place. Speaking from experience here, and one of the things that has helped me is thinking about no one cares as much as I care, you know, and then being able to sort of move forward instead of away. So one thing that has even helped me is just being on the podcast because I say at least one horrifically stupid thing every time. And at first it was like, oh, my gosh, like, I cannot handle this. Like, I got to tell Brad to shut it down. Like, we Cannot air this episode because I said this stupid thing. And then realizing, okay, I said this stupid thing, and then some people heard it, and then everybody went on with their lives. You know, like, I thought about it a lot. I spent a lot of energy on it and wanted to change my life about it. But then when I really think about other people's experience of me and saying those things, they all went on with their lives. And then I just kept doing it. I just kept saying stupid things, at least one every episode. And it has helped me to take myself a little bit less seriously, you know, to just recognize, like, oh, yeah, that's. That's what people do. You know, that's part of being human.

[Katie Donegan]

I'm really curious what the horrifically stupid thing you said in this episode is, because I haven't spotted it.

[Ginger]

Well, you will when you're listening, but then you'll just go on with your life. I think about that perfectionism, you know, as we're talking about, like, how life after you retire seems really different because the things that you use to measure your life ordinarily might be really different. And so I could really see people thinking as maybe I think as well, like, oh, this won't be as much of an issue because I won't have the same sort of work goals, or I won't see myself in the world the same way. I wonder what you think about that, and if that's like, no, this isn't really about work and outcomes. Like, how does it show up for you in this life where you get to choose your goals and you get to choose your deadlines?

[Katie Donegan]

For me, it's not about perfection of output. I've kind of got over that. I've kind of gotten over, oh, this video that we create needs to be perfect. What I say on this podcast needs to be perfect. I've kind of got over that probably just by modeling Alan, who's just like, I'll just put it out. I don't care if there's a spelling mistake. That's not important for me. It's more if I upset someone or I perceive that I've upset someone or said something hurtful, whether I meant it or not, or behaved in a way that, I don't know. I can't even think of an example, but just almost this, like, acute embarrassment for something that is not important and probably most people wouldn't even notice.

[Ginger]

So it's about who I am in a relationship or how other people understand me.

[Katie Donegan]

Yeah. I mentioned earlier needing to have replied to all messages like almost a perfectionism of I have this drive to have completed everything. I have this drive to be. Okay, we're working on these three different projects at the moment, this drive. But too much of a drive and a stress of, well, it's not done, therefore I must stress until it's completed. And then I just stress through doing stuff. Finished it and be like, oh, okay, done it now. What else do I have to do? It's almost this. I'm on this treadmill of having to do stuff, having to. It needs to all be like neatly lined up and done. But like, why I'm not at school doing my homework and getting a grade for it. So it's that perfectionism of everything neatly completed. It's probably a control thing as well. I can control this. I've replied to all the texts. But you know what happens when you reply to messages?

[Ginger]

People text you more.

[Katie Donegan]

They reply like, oh, I can never win this game. I can never be completely on top of my correspondence. As if that's the aim of life.

[Ginger]

Yeah. Did you read the Oliver Berkman book? I did 4,000 weeks.

[Katie Donegan]

Is that what it's called? 4,000 weeks?

[Ginger]

We talked about it on the show, but that was one thing. I'm kind of laughing when you're talking about the emails because that part where he is like, you have to realize, like, you will never win and you will never complete it. And the way that he talks about it, it's such a relief to just be like, oh, there's a different goal here because I'll never meet that goal.

[Katie Donegan]

Yeah. And what do you want it to say on your tombstone? Ginger. She replied to all her emails or Ginger, she had such a wonderful impact on her life by pursuing the projects that she was actually interested in.

[Ginger]

Oh my gosh. You know what I did that I was thinking about the other day? Like a year and a half ago, I got this special notebook that had like these special little boxes and lines and I made this really long to do list because I was doing this idea of like the brain dump. I just like, too much is going on. I just got to get it down. So I'm going to put down everything I need to do. So I do that. And then it's this huge list of like 35 things. Like, this is not helpful. So, okay, what I'm going to do is I'm going to make a work list and I'm going to make a home list. And then here's like the projects list. And I took every one of those items and I put them in there special. So now I have four different to do lists. And then what I did was I closed the book and I never opened it again. I just walked away and went on with my life. And I was thinking about it the other day because it was like, so much of me, like, trying to get a handle on just this thing that you're talking about. But there is something so deadening about trying to order those things as well. And you know what? My life is still functional, even though I don't know if I finished all of those things. I don't know what happened. But, yeah, you're in good company. There's just this way that our culture is, like, set up to, like, here's our tasks of life and here's our tasks of the day. And the thing that needs to happen with tasks is they need to be completed.

[Katie Donegan]

I think it's stepping out of that and saying, first of all, do they?

[Ginger]

Right.

[Katie Donegan]

And second of all, changing the relationship with the to do list. It's not the list's fault. It's not the list that stressing you. And this is something I've been struggling with for most of my adult life of stressing about the list. And I actually went to see a coach about it. Her solution was, well, get rid of the list a bit like you did. Well, okay, the list stressing me, Let me take that out of my life. Yeah, but lists can be a great way of organizing and structuring your life and making sure, like, if there's certain things you want to get done, having it out of your brain on a piece of paper helps. So that was not a good solution because I still needed to do stuff. And what I've come to realize through lots of discussion with Alan is that it's not the list because Alan will look at the list. We have a joint list. Most of our projects we work on together. He looks at the list and goes, ooh, fun stuff to do. I look at the list and go, oh, we haven't done it. Oh, and I need to add another 15 things on. And I need to add on reply to Ginger's message because she thinks I'm a terrible person for not replying yet. Stress, stress, stress. Let me eliminate all the things on the list so I can be happy. Which, again, doesn't work, by the way. So if we have such different feelings about the list, it cannot be the list's fault. The to do list is not the enemy. The way you're thinking about it is. And I know that. And I still do it.

[Ginger]

Oh, I love that, though, that the evidence is about, like, oh, other people aren't having these emotions or this reaction to the list. So it's not the list's problem. I could do this another way. I don't know that way yet, but I'm working on it.

[Katie Donegan]

Hang around with Alan. He'll show you the different ways of doing so many things.

[Ginger]

Yeah, so I always like to end all conversations with people about either books or travel because those are the things I'm interested in and I want you to help me think about, like, what to read next and where to go next. So let's talk about books a little. What are you reading or what are you interested in reading? What's on your Kindle that's about to be read?

[Katie Donegan]

I'm reading one called the Chat GPT Revolution, which explains right from beginning what AI is, how it works, and how you can use it to have a virtual assistant at your fingertips.

[Ginger]

Have you implemented any of those ideas?

[Katie Donegan]

I'm coming onto that bit of the book. So far I've read, like, the history of it and yeah, I'm interested to learn how to craft the prompts and how to get it to do things I didn't know it could do.

[Ginger]

Yeah, sounds interesting.

[Katie Donegan]

I also have everything you need to know about the menopause, but we're too afraid to ask.

[Ginger]

How's that?

[Katie Donegan]

It's good so far. Again, I read a little bit of it and I need to get into it and properly study it. Because what I've realised is if I read a book, I do not retain or implement the knowledge. If I study a book, it's way more likely to happen. So I've started taking notes and actually understanding it. So I'm excited about that one because whilst I like to think I'm away off the menopause, I think is something I need to understand and prepare for.

[Ginger]

Yeah. Okay. There's two things I want to say. First of all, I just finished the Menopause Brain, which was very good. So anyone, like, who's interested or close to perimenopausal age, like, it's a really good sort of basic information that we just don't learn. So I thought it was really helpful. But then my excitement about you saying I don't retain and I need to study was I just had this conversation with my husband last night because I'm reading this nonfiction book that someone lent me and it's really hard for me because I want to underline, but I can't underline because it's not my book. And I'm. I'm recognizing, like, how important that is to my retention in, like, a weird. Like a weird amount. And so I said to him, how many people do you think who read nonfiction? How many underlying things are right in the book? And he said, well, before I met you, like, I would have said 0%. So, I mean, are people not doing. Are you underlining in your books?

[Katie Donegan]

I highlight.

[Ginger]

Oh, I was going to say you're.

[Katie Donegan]

Doing Kindle on the Kindle. I was brought up that books are sacrosanct. If I'd have been drawing and underlining things in a book, that would not have gone down well. But then I did meet strange people like you that do write in books and tried it myself and felt quite liberated. I was like, ooh, I'm defacing the book. This feels quite fun.

[Ginger]

Nothing bad happens. Yeah, it's really essential for me. And the other thing I've been really noticing that I'm not sure if this is just aging. I don't know. I don't know the cause, but I really am drawn to rereading books. Like, I know that I didn't get everything from this book. I worry that it's aging in a bad way. It's like, oh, this is sort of, like, comforting, because I know sort of the arc of it. I don't do that with fiction, but with nonfiction, I'm like, I want to just. There's so many great books that I've read, and I know I didn't get everything, and I know I didn't really learn a lot of that. And so I find myself really wanting to just go back to old books. Is that bad? Is that good? Is that neutral? I don't know.

[Katie Donegan]

I mean, I don't know if we need to judge you for it. I do this silly thing where when I'm reading a book, a nonfiction book, I'm like, oh, yes, it's really great stuff. I'm going to reread this so that I actually take it in and do something about it. And then I'm like, why not just do it the first time round? But I know what you're saying, but it sounds like. I don't know, it's probably projecting onto you here, but it sounds like you're trying to be perfect about how you read the book. And was there one idea that I missed? I guess it depends on the motivation.

[Ginger]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's about perfectionism, because I would totally own up to that. I'M afraid, like, the fear pieces that it's like comfort, you know, in this way of like. That's one thing I worry about. Aging is like, I see people less and less willing to engage with new ideas or less willing to take. Take risks or. And I was like, is this just like a part of that where it's like, I want to go deeper into this and I can tell myself a story about it that's like, good. But maybe it's because there's something safe about I know this content or I know where it goes, or I don't want to engage.

[Katie Donegan]

Possibly.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

I don't think there's anything wrong with seeking comfort. I think as long as you don't do that in all areas of your life all the time and just stay with what you already feel comfortable with, I don't think there's anything wrong with re watching a movie you've already seen because you know you love it and you want to have that feeling.

[Ginger]

That's true.

[Katie Donegan]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

[Ginger]

Yeah. What do you think, guys, about where this conversation has gone?

[Katie Donegan]

Can I tell you one more book?

[Ginger]

Oh, yes, please.

[Katie Donegan]

The book that I really recommend is called the Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. Have you heard of it?

[Ginger]

No. I'll read it. Say more.

[Katie Donegan]

He talks about how we have an upper limit problem. We limit how much joy, success, abundance, love. We allow ourselves to feel. And if things are going well, you have some success in an area of your life, you will do something to sabotage it because you're like, oh, too much joy, too much happiness. I shouldn't be feeling this way. So you'll pick a fight with your partner. You'll unconsciously make yourself sick. There's something that will limit yourself and how much joy you allow yourself to feel. And it's been fascinating.

[Ginger]

It's up with that.

[Katie Donegan]

I know.

[Ginger]

Why do we do that? I do that. I totally do that. Or like, I'll do something, right. I'll spend so many hours on something, and then I have like, you know, two more hours of this thing until it's completed, and I just won't do it. What? What? So why does he say about why we do that?

[Katie Donegan]

A lot about beliefs that we probably picked up as kids. So one might be, if I'm too successful, I can't outshine where I came from because it will make the people where I came from feel bad about themselves.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

So we limit ourselves. Another one is, I don't deserve to feel this good. I'm not Worthy. And there are a couple of others. But he does go into that. It's fascinating and it's helped me to spot it in the moment and be like, oh, I was about to pick a fight there because one of me or Alan was feeling too good and they must be controlled.

[Ginger]

I love it. I'm going to read it. I'm going to make a recommendation as well based on some of the stuff that Katie and I were talking about perfectionism and how really the intervention for perfectionism is self compassion. One thing that really helped me was Kristin Neff's work, and specifically she has a workbook, and it is called the Mindful Self Compassion Workbook. A proven way to accept yourself, build inner strength and thrive. And I am not really a workbook person, so it's like a little bit unusual for me to be like, go read this workbook and then do the exercises. But read the workbook and do the exercises. It's really, really good for, like, getting you into that practice of self compassion. And especially for most of us, it's like, where do we even start? And so that's my recommendation for people who are saying, oh, yeah, I'm a perfectionist too, and I kind of don't know how to work with it.

[Katie Donegan]

Yeah, that sounds amazing. I'm going to check it out.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

Okay.

[Ginger]

So we've talked about books. Let's talk a little bit about travel, because I know you do that a lot. And I'm wondering if you could give us just a few recommendations for, like, places you've gone that were really cool or unexpected or just someplace that you've really enjoyed being recently.

[Katie Donegan]

We are currently in Australia and have fallen in love with Australia. The weather is lovely. The people are outgoing, confident, friendly. Up for a chat in the street with a random.

[Ginger]

Where are you at specifically?

[Katie Donegan]

We're in Melbourne right now, but we've been in Sydney and Melbourne, so that has. I was surprised how much I liked it. I thought I'd like it and then I was like, wow, this feels like it would be a place that you could easily make friends. They have a very outdoors culture because they have good weather, which I always notice good weather coming from the uk. And the other place that we've spent a lot of time is South America. So we spent a lot of time in Colombia in Bogota and Medellin mostly. Both those places are great. It's particularly inexpensive. The food is great and feels a very high quality because it's naturally local because they don't have the infrastructure to be shipping things in around the country. So the mango that you're eating is probably only from a few miles down the road.

[Ginger]

Yeah.

[Katie Donegan]

So those are two places that stand out.

[Ginger]

Yeah. When you mention the uk, it reminds me of the one great stupid thing I said a few episodes back where Brad was like, I went to London. I was like, isn't it gloomy? And look, why did I. Why did I say that? I'm sure it's lovely, but you hear so much about the weather.

[Katie Donegan]

I mean, chances are that it was gloomy. But we do have nice days and the whole world comes outside and you'll see people in the parks with very little clothes on, and everyone's happy. It's lovely when the sun comes out.

[Ginger]

Oh, well, we appreciate those things more when we don't have them all the time. I mean, it's exactly the same where I live. And maybe that's partly where I, like, clone to that image, because that's the thing that's really hard about where I live. But I do appreciate the sun maybe more than people anywhere else.

[Katie Donegan]

I think people that live in sunny places like, yay, it's raining. You just need some variety, don't you?

[Ginger]

Yeah. Okay, well, on that note, thank you so much for being willing to have this conversation and then being so real and lovable during it and sharing what's been hard for you, because that's something that we can all relate to and is really helpful to hear someone that we admire talk about those hard things as well.

[Katie Donegan]

Thank you, Ginger. It's been fun chatting. Let's do it again.

[Ginger]

Absolutely. And everyone go and check out the Donegan's website. We'll put that in the show notes and we will see you next time.

[Unknown]

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