Ginger (4:12)

I think that's so interesting for people to hear because I think most people assume that university research is like funded by the university.

Laura (4:20)

Yeah. Yep.

Ginger (4:22)

You guys have to go hustle for all that money.

Laura (4:24)

Yeah. And they'll say like, oh, well, it's okay, Your job is 70% soft funding, which means you need to bring that funding in. But we'll support you 30%. But that means 30% of my salary, but it doesn't mean 30% of my lab is funded by the institution. And of course there's a lot of indirect costs associated with research. And the NIH pays some indirect costs, but it doesn't cover the costs that the institution bears and just all of the infrastructure you need to do that research. So the institution does invest in you, but the reality is in order for you to progress and be deemed successful, the amount of money that you need to bring in is like mega lab size, like to get promoted from associate professor to full professor, you need to be demonstrating. Like, at a time I was struggling to even like, find 5% of my effort that I could put on a grant because I was spread as a principal investigator across so many grants. So the reality is it's not 70, 30, it's more like 150% soft.

Ginger (5:23)

All right, zero to 10, how stressful is your job? 10 being the most stressful.

Laura (5:28)

Oh, God, that's. That's changed a lot for me over the years. So I have had times when it's been 10, like, years where it was at 10, and it was really when my kids were young. And then I was being asked to do a lot of things in addition to running my lab, a lot of institutional, administrative things that I was saying yes to because you realize, like, I had a mentor who would say, oh, science is for the young. And he told me this when he was like 40 and I was like 30, you know, and I was like, what are you talking about? You're only 40, you're still young. And he was like, oh, you'll see. And I think it's true, like, you kind of get to a point where like, all of the technologies that you know so well change fast. And so you have to change with the technology. And you can be pretty adept at doing that as long as you have time to teach yourself those things. But there's like this inflection point where you're so busy getting grants and running your lab that you're actually not able to take the time to teach yourself the latest high throughput sequencing technology, for example, or maybe more importantly, how to analyze the data. Because we have shifted in my field from wet lab work that generates reasonable size data sets to these technologies that produce mega scale data sets. And all of a sudden it's a data science problem. And if you're not trained in data science, like, you are just running to keep up. So he was right, actually. And I found myself in that position where I'm like, okay, what am I going to do next? Because it's really the younger faculty who are coming in that have these skill sets that can actually apply these new technologies in the way that the science deserves. And any students who are coming to my lab want to learn those approaches. And so as a result, they weren't learning directly from me as much anymore because they weren't doing as much wet bench science. And that's really where my expertise lies. So I was sort of like, oh, maybe the next phase then as I move into administrative roles, and I started saying, yes. To these administrative roles. And then all of a sudden I felt like I was doing way too much. So that was also 100%. I would say that now, of course, I've gave my notice last year, so now I'm at like 20% stress level quickly diminishing to 5%. Yeah. I guess I have to say I was probably at like 100% stress level for a long time with minor fluctuations here and there.

Ginger (7:38)

Yeah.

Laura (7:39)

I think one thing that was always good about my job is there is time freedom. So, like, when I had young kids, the time freedom was really important to me because, you know, I could drop everything and go pick them up when they were sick from daycare. But I knew it meant that I was going to be back online at 9pm, working until 1am I was going.

Ginger (7:55)

To say, it's not really time freedom, is it? It's time flexibility.

Laura (7:58)

It's time flexibility. Yeah. And I. And I do think that's actually why a lot of women are attracted to these kinds of jobs, because you're going to have to get the work done and it's a lot of work, but no one is forcing you to get it done between 9 and 5pm yeah. So you're still working all the time, but at least you can take a break when your family needs you. But when you're doing that, you're sort of saying, like, you're feeling guilty for not doing the work and you're worrying about the work you're not getting done while you're with your kids. And then while you're focusing on work and getting the work done, you're worrying about not being with your kids. So I felt like I was always half as good a mom and half as good as a scientist. And I think that's a very common feeling for men and women. I used to attribute it just to women, but I think more and more these days, you know, there's two working couples and everybody's feeling guilty all the time about what they're not doing, you know, and that, that pace of life, I think, is. Is hard to sustain. And I think it's a real. I believe that it's a reason why a lot of people are attracted to the idea of achieving financial independence early because you just want to get off that treadmill.

Ginger (9:05)

Yeah. My little boy who is eight yesterday said to his dad, like, can't you just retire? Because he wanted to do something after school that my husband couldn't do. And it just gutted me. Oh, my God.

Laura (9:19)

Yeah. And the fact that he Even has that concept as an 8 year old. Maybe he hears you talk about it.

Ginger (9:24)

So I did wonder. I'm like, how do you know that word? Oh, wait. Because I probably talk about it constantly.

Laura (9:30)

But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ginger (9:32)

It's really hard with small kids.

Laura (9:33)

Yeah.

Ginger (9:34)

Okay. Well, when you look back sort of at this arc that you're describing and you're saying, okay, like, I see what this guy was saying and I see how this is a young man's game, a young woman's game. Did that make it easier, or does that make it easier for you now to step away, to say, okay, like, this isn't the time for me to do this anymore?

Laura (9:58)

Yeah, I mean, I think I had gotten to a point where I was looking for a transition. I mean, a lot of things were happening at once. So Eric had started thinking about early retirement in 2019 because Jason had retired early. And I remember initially thinking, like, that's amazing. And Jason and I, this is Jason from Two sides of Phi. We have very similar training in genetics. Right.

Ginger (10:21)

I didn't realize.

Laura (10:22)

Yeah. And I met Jason back when we were all in college. So Jason is Eric's childhood friend. And so when I started dating Eric in college, that's when I met Jason for the first time. And we were both interested in biology, interested in molecular biology. And right around that time, high throughput sequencing technologies were taking off, and Jason really got interested in that. And a lot of that was happening in biotech. And so he went to biotech. I stayed in academic science. But we kind of always stayed in touch with each other. And actually, when I started first using that technology in my lab, it was because Jason helped me out a lot with it. And at one point, he even worked at the same institution as me. So later on, when Eric and I moved up to Maine, Jason came and worked here for a little while, which was really cool. And I always thought, like, okay, I know, like, going into biotech is very stressful. He was in a very high stress job, but he changed jobs frequently and was able to level up his salary and really maximize how much money he was making for the time he was putting in. And sometimes I felt like, here I am putting a lot of time in and am I really maximizing what I could be earning? And. Yeah. And then when he retired in 2019, I was like, he really did. He really maximized that. And Eric was excited about that because at the same time, Eric started his business in 2013 and really did a lot of experimentation with how his business would look. And he talks about this a lot on the channel. But in a nutshell, you know, he's trained as a residential architect. He went and started his own business as a residential architect. And that was a period of time that I. For a while, you know, we were relying on my income while he was doing that. And I was so proud of that. I was like, I felt like a provider. I felt like I was able to give him back what he did for me when I. Cause when I was in graduate school, I wasn't making any money and he was working. So here now I had a chance to kind of give back to that. And so he was building his business and trying to figure out what he wanted that to look like, and was also doing content creation at the same time and was just so good at it. And people were really interested in what he was doing, and he was, like, making really beautiful content on his 30 by 40 YouTube channel. And that just created a whole part of the business that we didn't even anticipate. We didn't know what that would turn into in terms of income for us. And it started to do really well. So we did get to a point right around the time that Jason was talking about that, that we started to accumulate money. And that's usually a time, I think, when people are like, oh, great, let's move to a bigger house. Because at this point, the kids are, like, starting to take up a lot of space in our little starter home, which was like, where we still live now. And then it was like, or we could take this extra money and just start mega saving. Like, let's just start putting it away. And I didn't really believe him. He was like, look, if we. Here's how much money we have now. And I was like, well, let's pay off our mortgage and let's pay off my remaining student loans and things like that. And I felt like we should do that first with the extra money. So we did do that. And in the end, like, paying off a mortgage with a low interest rate probably, you know, is not necessarily the best financial decision, but emotionally it felt really great for me to be like, wow, not only I grew up in an apartment, we didn't have a house. Like, not only did I work this hard and was able to get a house, and now it's paid off, and it's paid off early. And I just felt. I just remember, like, standing in front of the wood stove and just throwing the paperwork into the wood stove, like, just feeling, like, so happy and proud that we did that. But Then Eric's like, you know, he's like, we can keep going, and we can keep stockpiling this money, and we might be able to retire early. And I was like, what? He's like, well, there's this whole thing called financial independence. Retire early. And I don't know if he called it a movement at the time, but I was like, this sounds like a cult. I don't think we should be entertaining this idea.

Ginger (14:05)

And this was, like, five years ago.

Laura (14:07)

This was, like, 2019. Yeah.

Ginger (14:11)

Okay.

Laura (14:12)

So I was not, like, ready to hear about it. I was just focused on other things and never thought about retirement at all. Like, it just seemed so far away.

Ginger (14:21)

Yeah.

Laura (14:22)

And, you know, I think people come to this in different ways, and I think part of the catalyst for us was just having that extra income coming in and making decisions about what to do with it. Yeah. And then Jason retiring, and then he would kind of lob, like, podcasts at me, you know, oh, listen, Choose Fi. Right? Like, it was like, Choose Fi has a lot of great podcasts early on that were giving you the basics. Like, here's this concept. So he was sending those to me, and I'm, like, listening to them here and there, and they're interesting. And then he's like, oh, you should listen to Quit Like a Millionaire, which was Kristy Shen. Yeah. And I think it was the audiobook, because I think she reads the audiobook, and I really enjoyed that. And. Okay, I think now we're getting into Covid times, because I was taking longer walks and listening to audiobooks, and he had sort of suggested that I read that, listen to that. So I did. And then Simple Path to Wealth and Simple Path to Wealth. I was like, I can't believe that no one ever. I have zero. I realized I was so ignorant about, like, I have a 403B, and I was maximizing it. And there was just so much that I just didn't know that I had just never even bothered to think about or didn't think that it was within my capacity to understand those things. I was actually pretty surprised once I started learning about it myself. And even though Eric was talking to me about it all the time, I was still a bit like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ginger (15:44)

It is kind of amazing how little most of us know about that stuff that has this huge impact on our lives. And yet, like, as you're kind of talking about, a lot of it is pretty basic.

Laura (15:57)

It is.

Ginger (15:57)

Someone could have just explained this to me in, like, 10 minutes, you know, and even now, as I talk to my friends, this stuff comes up. They're like, oh, how do you know this stuff? Like, I have this special, intense knowledge. I'm like, no, I can just explain it to you in 10 minutes. You know, it's just that no one ever has.

Laura (16:14)

Yeah. And of course, when you start drilling into it, you can get pretty complicated, but you don't have to.

Ginger (16:19)

Yeah.

Laura (16:20)

And I think that was surprising to me. But then when Covid hit, like, all hell broke loose, you know, at work, and, you know, we had to shut down, and it was really like, emergency mode. Right. Like, my research involves laboratory mice and actually our entire institution, we provide laboratory mice for research, genetically engineered mice for research all around the world. So we're this major biomedical resource in addition to being research labs. And so everybody was like, if something happens to those mice, like, everybody at the institution, including those of us in research, had to be prepared to go in and literally, like, change boxes. Like, we had to protect those research animals. So it was like hair on fire mode. And so I was trying to think about, like, this big transition in our life, but then also trying to think about just keeping the ship afloat here at work. And we were like, the research labs shut down for a period of time, and then when they let us come back, it was like, you can only have two people. Everybody had to be six feet apart. So in my lab space, I could only have two people in the lab at a time. So we were working on these 24 hour, seven day a week shifts, and I was trying to manage everybody's work so that they could get it done in these shifts. And it went on like that for, like, a year. You know, the kids are home from school. The younger one is, like, trying to go into his freshman year with, like, zero social outlets, except for, like, you know, everything was online, and all these things are happening in the meantime. Eric's business is taking off because everybody's at home and deciding, like, I think I'm, you know, he was selling courses, and all these people who were practicing architects who want to start their own businesses were suddenly interested in buying his courses so that they could figure out how to start their architecture businesses. And so my work is incredibly stressful. But on his side, more money's coming in. Yeah, yeah. He was like, I think this could happen sooner. He's like, if we sit down and think about this, our first number that we came up with, if we only had to think about covering our. Our fixed costs of living, this is what our number would be. And here's how far away we were from it. And I was like, no way am I ready to deal with that. That was like one or two years away. And I just couldn't handle it. And then I was turning 50, you know, like, there was this period of three or four years. Like, it was Covid I was turning 50. The first son's going off to college, the second one's going off to college two years later. It was just like so much transition to deal with at one time. And I am not like, I don't like change. So it was very hard for me. And I, you know, he. As soon as he made the decision that we were going to be able to do this, he was like, all he wanted was just for me to be on board. And I was just like, you know, stiff arming him for a while. So it was definitely. It was not something that I just woke up in the morning as soon as I saw the numbers, said, yes, this is what we're going to do. And then I guess tied up in all of that was like, well, wait a minute, who am I if I'm not doing this job?

Ginger (19:18)

Yeah, there it is.

Laura (19:20)

Right?

Ginger (19:20)

Because that question you said, well, or you said, oh, I. I just can't handle this. Right. And from an outside perspective, if you don't think about it very much, it's like, well, what? That sounds great, right? This, you get to do this exciting thing. And yet there's a lot of other pieces to that that I think you're getting at now, which is. Okay, well, I didn't consider that this wouldn't be what I was doing with my life this decade. I had never thought about that. And so what has it been like for you to make that transition and maybe to back up a little bit? You should tell us where you're at in terms of your actual retirement date.

Laura (19:55)

Yeah, my actual retirement date is December 20, which is just like a month away. But my official last day is actually not until April because I have an obscene amount of vacation time that I never used, enough to take me from December 20th to April 2nd or 3rd. And they give you an option if you can either take a payout. Well, this is kind of unwritten. Usually what they do is they give you a payout, but when they do give you a payout, they're no longer matching. This is an amazing retirement plan. They put 5% into your 403 and then match up to another 5%. So basically, they're putting in 10% of my salary into my 403. So it's great. And I didn't want to leave that money on the table, so I just said, I just want to take my vacation time.

Ginger (20:42)

Yeah.

Laura (20:42)

And then I do have one more PhD student and she's not going to be done. So I have this active emeritus status from April 4th on. And what that allows me to do is just keep my work email address. And I have access to some resources that she needs for her project, High performance computing access. And I had some discretionary funds left over that they just are putting into an account so she can use that to go to meetings and we can pay for her publications. And I have a couple of more conferences that I have to go to because I have a society that I'm the president of right now. And I promised them I'd see that through. So that's through 2026. So it's kind of like a gradual exit, I guess.

Ginger (21:24)

Yeah, sure. But still, we're talking about like from two years ago. I can't handle this to today, which is. Even though still have one foot kind of in it, it's very different from what you were imagining it is. And I wonder what it's like to how you think about that, how you think about who you're going to be in a year.

Laura (21:45)

Yeah, I had to think a lot about whether I. How much is my career? Actually, me and people say that your job is just a means to an end, but if you have a career, it's more meaningful. And if that end is being able to retire and you find you're able to retire early, that's great if what you're doing is your job. But if it's your career, you're giving up so much more than that. And I think that it's true. I am giving up a network of people. I'm giving up a source of independence and pride. I never thought I'd be able to do this job. I wasn't that kind of person who was the valedictorian of their high school class. And then I went to Ivy League. And, you know, for me, I always felt like I had to work harder and prove myself because I wasn't coming from this prestigious academic background that many of my colleagues come from. So it's never been in my mind a given that I would be successful at this. And so I was always in this position of proving myself. And I think everybody kind of feels that way to a certain degree. You sort of feel like a tourist in what you're doing.

Ginger (22:52)

And then look at this evidence that you have around you now that you get to sort of look at of like, oh, here's the outcome of all of that work. Here's the lab, here's the title, Here are my connections. And so I imagine that feels quite good. And what happens when you don't have that evidence around you anymore that you.

Laura (23:10)

I mean, I don't have it around me, but it doesn't go away. I mean, all of my success in science is there in the literature. If I want to open it up and look at it and feel proud about having done that, I can do that. So in the same way, my mother always said you should invest everything you can in your education because nobody can take that away from you. And I think the same is true for this career. I don't feel like, because I retire that all of a sudden, what I did for 23 years, 25 years, however you want to cut it, it doesn't go away. Yeah, but I do. I can see it happening already. Like, my interactions with people fall away, you know, like, and sometimes I think you conflate your work colleagues as friendships, and I think a few of them are real friendships, but a lot of them are actually just because you work together. Right. And when you're no longer planning a future grant together or a future project or whatever it is, it's already happening. Those people are falling away. And so, so far, I have just felt unburdened. Like, each thing that falls away, I feel freer. So to me, that tells me that I may have just had my head down quite a lot with this. And just, it's my personality, it's how I was raised. Like, you just put your head down and your job is not going to be easy. And if you've picked something difficult, that's great because it's going to be hard, but it's going to make it all the more worthwhile. But all the reasons why I was interested in doing science in the first place, like I said earlier, it's just a lot of that has turned into a lot of things that I don't enjoy doing. I actually don't. I love people. I love everyone in my lab. But I find managing people to be tiring. Like, it's very emotionally exhausting for me. I loved working in labs because I could just go off in a corner by myself and do something interesting.

Ginger (24:59)

Yeah.

Laura (24:59)

But the reality is that is not how it works. Like, it's very social, it's very political, it's very strategic. And all of these things kind of get more amplified as you get further along in this career. And I think those things have been weighing on me quite a lot. So. And I don't know why it was so hard for me to come around to that. Like, why didn't I just say yes? As soon as Eric was like, look, we're going to be able to do this, I should have been like, yeah, let's go do that. You know? Instead I was like, whoa, wait a minute. No, we're not. Like, I. I'm clinging to these things, so why am I clinging to these things? And where is myself, like, in all of this? And I think that's why I ended up having to finally go into therapy and just kind of deal with those questions to really dig out, like, who am I right now and how much of that is coming from this career, you know? And I think that allowed me to finally kind of peel away the layers a little bit and prioritize what's important to me in my life. And that has made this feel okay. I mean, I'm not. I definitely have days where I'm like, oh, I know I'm going to miss that person, or I'm going to miss that thing, and that's going to feel, you know, who am I going to interact with now? I think I have to. I do have to replace some of that, and I don't know how I'm going to do it yet. And that's a very common question. People are like, what are you going to do? And the answer is, I don't really know. But I feel like in other times in my life when there's been major decisions, I didn't really know what the outcome was going to be. Like, when you decide to have kids, you have no idea. You never feel like it's the right time. You don't know what's going to happen when you get married. Right. When you. All these big decisions are risks that you take. And this is. In some ways, it's a risk because you're trusting that when you get on the other side of this, that you're going to be happy and fulfilled in the absence of this career that you've filled your time up with. But I don't think you can ever be sure, you know? So that's where I. That's how I'm thinking right now.

Ginger (26:47)

Yeah, I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. Like, you have a lot of experience of figuring things out, right? And you'll figure it out. We were talking a little bit before we pressed record about how I had transitioned from teaching at a university to being a counselor. And one of the things that was really hard for me when I was on that side and I was thinking about quitting, I just felt like I was so narrowing my life in a way. Like, if I step away from this, I can never go back. And what if the path I've chosen is the wrong path? Like, this could be a really big mistake. And then once I got to that other side, oh, my gosh, I felt so much freedom, sort of like how you're describing. And suddenly it occurred to me, like, I can do anything. If I don't like this, I can do something else. But there is some way where I think, especially after we've done something for a really long time, that it can just really narrow how we think about what our future is or what it could be. And you have to take that leap in order to see, oh, my gosh, this is like infinite options ahead of me. You know, just because I'm closing down one thing, it doesn't matter, because there are so many other ways to be in this world.

Laura (27:58)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's different depending on how you're coming to it, too. Because I don't know if this was your experience, but my experience was I was raised in such a way where it was, you know, you need to make sure that you can support yourself and your family. You can't rely on anyone else. And all your decisions have to be centered around that. And you almost, like, have this obligation to be dedicated. Like, you need to be, you know, the person everyone can rely on, the person who says yes to everything. You're not going to let people down. You. You know, I think my response to that was to sort of, I guess, pay more attention to other people first, you know, and being successful to me, had a lot to do with whether or not I was keeping people employed and keeping people in my group happy or making sure that my institution valued me. And sometimes that meant I was saying yes to a lot of things that weren't really in alignment with who I am, but that also meant that I kind of didn't really know who I was. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of weird. And so you have to face up to that at some point. And I think eventually you're going to retire, right? I mean, everyone will. And I'm really grateful that I have the opportunity now to do it when I'm young, because, as you said, all the opportunities are there. You can do anything. But that's also very scary because there's no boundaries on it. But if you retire very late in life and you realize that now, what is it too late for? You know, and I don't want it to be too late. And when you are in your 50s, you start to see people getting sick in ways that they may not recover from, you know, and it starts to get scary. You start to, like, realize, I'm so grateful that I can do this. And it would be, you know, I would be fine if we were going to keep working. Like, let's say we do this and it's all a horrible mistake. Like, I can get a job, you know, like, yeah, it's not the end of the world. And I always tell my kids, don't be afraid to make decisions because you feel like all these doors are closing. You have to focus on all the doors that are opening when you make a decision. And if it doesn't work, you make another decision. Just move on. And why wasn't I not taking that advice for myself in 2019 when we first started talking about this? Why did it take me a few years to come around? I don't know. But it's very easy to dole out advice that you don't then take for yourself.

Ginger (30:19)

Okay, so I get this sense that you're not liking it when people ask you, what's next? Is that true?

Laura (30:27)

Yeah, but everyone asked me that. I mean, every. You know, of course, right. When you tell everyone at work, you know, that's what everyone says. But it continues to happen. It's been. I gave notice back in March, I think, and I still have people asking me, yeah, so what are you doing? What's next? Have you figured out what's next? And I don't have that figured out.

Ginger (30:46)

Yeah. I'm curious about the tone when they're asking you that. Like, what has been the reaction of people? Because kind of like we were talking about before, this is something, you know, retiring in your early 50s is just not in the imagination, I think, of most people. And so they're going to have a kind of response when you say this. Right. And so do you think it has mostly been positive? Mostly been, like, some curiosity or negative? What. What has that been like to actually tell people that you work with?

Laura (31:17)

Yeah, it was a mixture of all those things. There was the category of reactions which were, that's amazing. Congratulations. I want to be able to do that. Right. So there were some people who responded that way. How did you do it? Oh, I know when I retire, I'm going to do this. I was at A meeting recently, and there was a couple of graduate students who came over to me, and they had just heard that I was retiring early. And they're like, oh, it's nice to meet you. We talked about science a little bit. And then they're like, but more importantly, I just heard that you're going to retire early. And that's what I want to do. And they don't even have their PhDs yet. I mean, they're so. So they want it. They're getting their PhDs and they're going to go do this career, but they're already thinking about what they're going to do when they retire. And I'm like, maybe, you know, you should think about what you want to be doing now. I mean, I don't know. Like, I could be wrong, but. But she was like, I know what I'm going to do when I retire. I'm going to retire early, and I'm going to open up a wine and cheese shop. And I do notice that, like, younger people, it's much easier for them to envision what they would be doing. So, like, when I talk to younger people, they're all sort of like, oh, this is so exciting, and someday I want to do that. And when I do, here's what I'm going to do. And I remember being that way, too. Like, I could envision so many things for myself when I was young. And then, like, older people, including me, have a hard time envisioning what they would do next and why. I don't know why that is, but yeah. So the next category were the people who were like, oh, my God, I'm never going to be able to do that. And even if I did, I can't think of what else I would do. I like this job. It keeps me busy. And those are the same people who are like, if I came up with things, like, there was one person who I was talking to who was like, oh, you know, what are you going to do? And they were in this kind of age group. And I was like, well, initially, I would really like to travel more. I've traveled a lot for my job, but you don't really get to experience the place with your best friend. Like, Eric was not traveling with me when. When I went to Japan a few times. And, you know, I would like to go to Japan as a tourist with him and enjoy it that way and not necessarily do it in the context of work. So I was telling this person different places we were interested in traveling to, and every single place I mentioned. He was like, oh, yeah, I've been there. Oh, yeah, yeah, I've been there. Oh, yeah, yeah, we did that. And it was all in the context of work. And he's like, see, that's why I love this job, because I'm able to do my science and I'm making a difference in the world and I can travel. And so he was kind of reasserting to me why he was so happy to continue in this job in the same conversation where he was asking me about what I was going to do when I retire. And that's a hard conversation because he's actually is tapping some insecurities. You know, whatever insecurities I have about making the decision get triggered a little bit by that conversation. Not that this person was doing it intentionally, but.

Ginger (33:58)

Yeah, well, there is something dismissive there about, oh, well, I don't need to make that choice because I can have everything you want while still having my job. And it's interesting how when we have conversations like that with people, he just wants to feel good about himself. Right. So he's got to tell the story in a way that he can tolerate hearing this. Right?

Laura (34:18)

Yeah. And then you're tempted to say something dismissive back like, oh, well, yes, you went to all those places, but it was for work, and you probably didn't really enjoy it as much as you would have if you didn't, you know? And, like, I don't want to get sucked into that kind of thing, because then you're just like, you're having that kind of reaction. That's just not healthy. So I was just sort of like, oh, yeah, that's great. That's cool. Okay, see you later, you know? Yeah. And then the next group of people were the people who were saying, how can you do this? You're such a great scientist. You're not going to be happy. Like, all of us who do this, we're so dedicated, you know, there's no way you're going to be able to walk away from being a scientist and do something different because, you know, this is who we are. And there were some people who said that. And then also in that category was other kinds of remarks like, okay, I could see why you're doing that. But Eric's not going to step away from his career. He's at the pinnacle of his career. There's, like, snarky things. Oh, and the people who would come in my office and close the door and say, what's going on? Are you sick that I would be quitting because I have some terminal illness or something.

Ginger (35:26)

Just really hard for people to understand.

Laura (35:29)

Yeah. Later, I think I was on Reddit, maybe it was like the chubby fire subreddit or something. And somebody was talking about the different reactions they got when they told people they're retiring. And one person commented, that's why I don't tell anybody now. Like, I can't avoid telling people at work, obviously, but they were referring to, like, the people outside of work who. It's kind of optional. You don't have to necessarily tell people, everyone that you're retired. Like, could I have gotten away with just saying to my family, I'm just making a change in my career and not said I was retiring, not said anything about the finances of it? And in some cases, I think maybe I was expecting people to be happier for me because I had come through this whole thing and made this decision. And there was a lot of work that went into becoming financially independent, a lot of work that both Eric and I did, and then a lot of emotional work that I had to do to really think about what I wanted to do. Now that you feel like you want to share that and you feel it, feel like it's a success, but then, you know, some of the reactions you get from your friends and family outside of work are mixed, too. So some people are happy for you. Some people are kind of like, oh, must be nice.

Ginger (36:38)

Oh, must be nice.

Laura (36:40)

Yeah. Or like, my. My mother just completely confused by the whole thing. Like, really concerned. What do you mean you're going to walk away from your job? How are you going to do that? Have you guys really thought about this? Like, your boss is going to be mad at you. That was one of her classic reactions, you know, like, the day that I gave notice, she texted me. She's like, what did your boss say? Was she mad at you? And I'm like, where does that come? Like, she just comes from this generation of, like, why would I be afraid of my boss being mad at me? Yeah. So it's been interesting, the mixture of reactions. And across the board, everybody does ask what you're going to do, and it doesn't matter what you say. You know, Like, I could say, I'm going to write a novel, or I'm going to, you know, start a disease foundation, or I'm going to start an entire research institute of my own, or I'm going to, like, lay on a beach for two years and do nothing and drool, you know? Like, I actually don't think that any of those things matter. To the people who are asking, in some ways, I feel like sometimes they're just thinking about what they would do. So lately I've been saying, like, I don't know, I have no idea what I'm going to do. What would you do?

Ginger (37:44)

Oh, I love that.

Laura (37:45)

And then some people are like, I don't know. And then of course, there's the young people who know right away, right. If they're under the age of 30, they're like, oh, yeah, I'd open up a coffee shop. I'd do this, I'd do that. So I don't really have a straight answer for that question. I mean, the immediate few years, I mean, one of the things that Eric and I decided, which is different than what we were talking about before, we will keep his business going, which means that officially, like you might argue, he's not really fully retiring. And so was this some kind of bait and switch that, like, we were supposed to retire together and now he's not? But I think sitting down and talking about our ever changing FI number, you know, like, our first FI number was when we had was based purely on, like, what our fixed costs were. So that was pretty low. But then it was like, well, what about our discretionary, like, and as our discretionary spend has changed and every time we dream about things to do in retirement, it has a direct impact on that discretionary spending. The way that we think about that number has changed. So there's that and then just having that using the business as a cash position early on and then also using it as a way to pay for healthcare. So healthcare is a big one. Everybody worries about paying for healthcare when they retire early. Some people are lucky enough to have these pensions where they get health insurance forever, but very few people have that. So definitely we knew in the first few years we didn't qualify for sort of the COVID aca subsidies, which will probably go away anyway. So, you know, one of the things that, that we're doing is I become an employee of the business and then we use an individual contributor, hra to take money. Basically, I. I'm paid with that. And then I buy health insurance for the family.

Ginger (39:25)

Yeah, I want to go back to something you said about, hey, we worked really hard to get here. And I know that there you're talking about, like, we did a lot of work and we did a lot of saving, but I think there's another kind of work that you did which was the psychological piece and part of that that we haven't talked about that I think people aren't thinking about when they have their reactions. Right. Is that you had to get to a place where you said this is enough.

Laura (39:51)

Yeah.

Ginger (39:51)

Right. Because if you had kept working, you could have more money. I think that is a really big task. That is a big thing to get to that place where you say this is how much money we're going to have. And I feel comfortable, I feel happy with that. And I wonder what that was like for you. Was that hard? Did you have any of that scarcity mindset around?

Laura (40:11)

Like, definitely.

Ginger (40:13)

Yeah.

Laura (40:13)

Yeah, I definitely did. Because so one place where I think we were not on the same page was how much money are we going to save for the kids college? You know, as you're sort of deciding whether or not it's enough, you're taking those things into consideration. Like, how much are we helping our kids?

Ginger (40:28)

Yeah.

Laura (40:29)

Do we need to help our parents at all? You know, as they're in their late 70s, talking to them about their finances? Well, first we had to actually have those conversations because your parents, I don't know about other people our age, but like my parents did not want to talk about, you know, my mother and my in laws, I mean my in laws were more open to it, I guess, but it's kind of like they didn't grow up in a time where you talked. They didn't talk to their parents about finances. We just took it for granted that our parents would be okay and they are going to be okay. But you have to have that conversation before you decide if you have enough because you don't want to give up all of your income and then turn around and see that your aging parent doesn't have enough money to live off of. So we did start drilling into those things a little bit more than maybe I expected early on. Like, are we on the same page about helping our family out if they need it and are they going to need it? So that factored into like, is this going to be enough? And then of course, like just trying to forecast as everybody does, you know, how much money do you need to live off of? I mean, you have that sort of like curve in retirement where you're spending more money early on and then, you know, you get to your like no go years and you're not spending as much. And then towards the end when you need, you know, nurses coming in and taking care of you or long term care, you need to make sure you have money for that. So you definitely do all of the forecasting to answer those questions as best you can. And then after that it's like, okay, so is this enough?

Ginger (41:50)

Yeah.

Laura (41:51)

And it's like, okay, well, let's look at, like, our wish list of things we want to do. How much are those things going to cost? So for us, anyway, we did change our number a couple of times based on is this going to be enough? And we had to come to some kind of agreement about, you know, how much we wanted to contribute to college. We still wanted our kids to have some skin in the game. And, you know, we have this conversation about weddings. Like, are we going to have to pay for weddings? Like, what's the tradition now? I mean, surely it's not that, like, if. If our kids even do get married, like, are we going to help them pay for that? You know, like, we have to make sure we have that money. So, yeah, I think, I think that's a very personal thing for different people. Like, how much you. You feel like you want to support your family. You know, what do you want to do with your time? How frugal do you want to be?

Ginger (42:36)

So you have a lot of conversations.

Laura (42:38)

A lot of conversations, a lot of thinking about that concept of, like, what does your rich life look like? That's the Ramit Sethi thing, where I was listening to a lot of Ramit Sethi during that time too, because. And I kind of like those concepts, like sort of sitting down and really making a decision for yourself and as a couple, like, what are your priorities in life? And making a decision about what's enough based on really what your priorities are. And, you know, you're not guaranteed you're not going to have the same priorities. Right. There's going to be some differences, and you have to face that. And I'm like a classic avoidant personality. So I don't want to have conflict. I don't want to have change. Those conversations for me in the past have been very hard because I don't like to confront conflict. But you have to do that. I mean, for me, anyway, I really had to understand that for us to move forward, we have to really address all the areas where we might not be in alignment. And finances are a really important part of that.

Ginger (43:33)

Yeah. So when you say you changed the number a few times, I'm assuming that number got bigger and bigger. Is that right?

Laura (43:40)

Yes. Yeah.

Ginger (43:41)

And then at some point, like, you could see how you could kind of revise that forever. So how did you get to a point where you said, okay, well, we've changed it now it's this new higher number, but this Is it for real?

Laura (43:54)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, then you start to think about things like, am I now trading time that I don't have for money that I don't need?

Ginger (44:02)

Right.

Laura (44:03)

And that quote came from somewhere. And I remember Eric brought it up with me. And I don't remember where he read it or heard it, but that resonated with me quite a lot. I was like, okay, now you're getting to the point where it's time and money and how precious is your time and how do you want to be spending your time? And when I really look at that, it also kind of like breaks my heart a little bit because I think back to all the precious time that I had to lose early on when my kids were young, the things that I missed, and other people took steps back when their kids were little and I couldn't take a step back and still be able. In this job, you can't take a pause and then come back in. I think you mentioned that about when you were pursuing teaching English and being a professor of English. Right. You can't just take a side road and then come back in. Right back to where you were. As soon as I have a lull and grants and papers, I'm done. I'm not going to get any more grants after that. And if I don't get any more grants, there's no more papers, so you can't stop. So I'm not looking back on it and saying that I wish I hadn't done it because I feel like I had a great career and I'm very proud of it. But I did sacrifice time to do that, and now I don't have to do that.

Ginger (45:19)

Yeah. Maybe that is part of what has made that concept of selling your time more powerful to you now. Right. Because that's something that has stuck with me, too. That same idea of, okay, well, if I just keep piling up money, there is a consequence to it, but it's just so far down, you know, that we're not really thinking about it.

Laura (45:43)

Yeah. And it's not worth it to die with a pile of money. So at some point you have to say, it's enough. And you can do all the Monte Carlo simulations on your portfolio and you tend to pay attention to the failures. I don't want to see any failures in this. I'm going to rerun it every time I change my household budget and see what it looks like. If the failure is always like, okay, if you run it with you, start retiring during the Great Depression, at the beginning of it okay, fine, it's going to fail in that scenario. But all the other scenarios is doing fine. You never look at the upper end scenario, which is like, oh, my God, there in this very small percentage of time, I could be dead with $10 million. Like I said, great for my kids, but, like, what have I done? You know? And I feel like every time we definitely revisit it a lot. Like, this whole process is revisiting our budget over and over and over again and revisiting simulations over and over and over again. And what does it look like if we do a cape ratio withdrawal? Right. And what does it look like if we do the 4% rule? And what does it look like with a variable, other type of variable withdrawal rate? And you do all these scenarios so that you can say to yourself, okay, financially, it's time to stop. We have enough. And we had to go through all of those, and then we had to just decide, okay, now this is going to be enough.

Ginger (46:59)

Yeah. You're talking like someone who is sort of at the end of that, and I know not the very end, but in terms of, like, you seem to have some peace around. This is what we've settled on is enough and we feel good about it.

Laura (47:11)

Yeah, I think so. But it certainly wasn't done without, like, exhaustive, you know, rehashing of everything. I mean, we both have that in our personalities that we just, like, looked at the numbers a million different ways.

Ginger (47:25)

Yeah.

Laura (47:26)

So I think we have enough. I think we have enough now and we should be fine.

Ginger (47:31)

Exciting.

Laura (47:32)

Yeah.

Ginger (47:32)

Well, let's transition into resources. You know, you mentioned the simple path to wealth was helpful for you and quit like a Millionaire was helpful for you early on.

Laura (47:42)

Yeah, Just getting started. I think those things were very helpful.

Ginger (47:46)

Yeah. Are there other things for people listening who may be at various stages of this?

Laura (47:51)

Yeah. I mean, then as you. Once you get past like the early retirement 101 stuff, then you go into Big Earn, right? Yeah. So he's great. I mean, I think what I really love about him is his tools are very complicated. You know what I mean? So when you're using his tools, you're going to see everything under the hood, like all of the numbers, and it's kind of overwhelming, but once you get past the beginner stuff, and then you're really sort of like, do I really trust this? Do I trust all of this? And you start drilling into stuff that's like, you really have to have a background in economics and have training and financial analysis and whatever else to really. There's a lot of science in there, actually. And so I. I really appreciated having access to those resources. And I definitely would read to a point where I was like, okay, now I'm definitely over my head and do I need to understand things to this extent, or can I back out now? So those tools were helpful.

Ginger (48:52)

I'll just jump in there. For anyone who's listening who has not yet dipped their toe into the big urn content, I loved his case study so much, and that could be a really good place to start. Although I will say they are really involved, and I really thought they were written in a way that I really liked that. But I did send it to a friend, and she was like, stop. Never text me again. Because it was just. It was like, way too much for her. And so you got to be a little bit more into it as far as case study goes. Those. I learned so much from those.

Laura (49:25)

Yeah. And he's been on, I mean, across all of the more popular early retirement podcasts, you'll find interviews with Big Earn, where sometimes it's helpful to hear him talk through a lot of this. So in addition to going on his website and using his tools and listening to him talk about it, I think it was all of those things together kind of satisfied that need that I had to sort of get deeper into it, I guess. And then not the financial side, but Fritz Gilbert, his book, he sent it, actually, because I think Eric and Jason had him on their podcast. And then he sent me his book, Keys to a Successful Retirement. And that covers sort of like, once you retire, what are the key things that people have found that they need to feel like they have a successful retirement. And it's things like finding your passion projects and giving back to the community and different techniques that you can apply to find purpose, I guess, after retirement. And so I enjoyed listening to him, and that book was helpful for me. Projection Lab is a new tool that I think Eric and Jason got access to it. And so Eric and I were using that most recently. So I have a 457, for example, and we've gone back and forth about like, okay, when I leave the lab, this 457, I can take it all in one lump sum and just bite the bullet and pay the taxes on it. Or I can take it in 10 disbursements and at any date that I want. And we had kind of decided that, screw it, let's just take it in one lump sum and maybe we'll wait till, like, next year or the year after when our tax Bracket is hopefully a little bit lower. But then he showed me Projection Lab and we started using that to sort of like, okay, we could actually compare. What would it look like if we took lump sum now versus lump sum in three years versus 10 disbursements? And it literally shows you, like, what is the most tax advantaged thing you can do. Right.

Ginger (51:16)

Oh, cool.

Laura (51:17)

And it has a really nice graphical user interface and you can play around with all of those kinds of decisions. You can factor in and make a projection about what that does to your retirement portfolio. I love it so far. I mean, actually, someone at work who I know wants to retire early. I sent a link to her. I'm like, you guys are going to love this, mainly because you have this ability to sort of tweak all these little things. And what does it look like if you do a variable withdrawal rate? What does it look like if you do 4%? What does it look like if you decide that you want to spend this much money? You can even change. I think we know that our discretionary spending is going to be high in early retirement, but then it's going to sort of drift down. So I like the idea that I can kind of run these projections without making an assumption that my withdrawal is always going to be similar or like our discretionary spending is always going to be similar.

Ginger (52:09)

Yeah.

Laura (52:09)

Even when you try to project it, you know it's going to be lumpy. But I can definitely say that in the first 10 years of our retirement, we're going to be spending a lot more money on travel than we will in the second 10 years.

Ginger (52:18)

Yeah.

Laura (52:19)

And then in the third 10 years, it'll be probably much lower even than that. So for all those reasons, I think that tool has been really useful. And maybe also I like it because it's very graphical. So I like having the graphics in front of me.

Ginger (52:34)

Yeah.

Laura (52:34)

Helps me a lot.

Ginger (52:35)

Okay, well, we will put that stuff in the show notes as well as I know bigger and has been on Choose a Fire. So we'll put that down there as well for you guys to check out.

Laura (52:43)

Yeah.

Ginger (52:44)

Well, Laura, thank you so much for having this conversation and letting us take a peek into your life at this, like I said, this really interesting time in your life a couple years ago. Actually, it was probably like 10 years ago now. I was talking to a friend who was 60 at the time, and she was talking about what the next few years were going to look like in terms of she was going to try to cut back on work and, you know, wanted to be totally done by 64 or 65. And I had asked her kind of how she felt about that, and she had some sadness around it, and she said, you know, between 50 and 52 is when people should retire. She said that would have been the perfect time. Oh, and that's always just like, oh, stuck with me because.

Laura (53:30)

And was that because she felt like she was too old to do certain things?

Ginger (53:34)

Yeah, just in terms of, like, I had so much energy then. I had so much desire to do these different things, and, you know, she couldn't make it work. It's hard to. It's hard to make it work. Like you said, a lot of work goes into getting to that point. But of course, I was a lot younger than that at the time. And so it felt like this sage was giving me advice about, like, hey, want to do it?

Laura (53:53)

Right?

Ginger (53:54)

This is the time. So, yeah, as I talked to you today, I'm like, you're doing it. You're doing the dream.

Laura (53:59)

It's really exciting. And I. So far, the overall feeling has been that I'm unburdened. I feel unburdened. And I don't feel guilty if I, in the middle of the day, go to the gym for two hours or go for a hike or. You know, even though I'm still working right now, my schedule is opening up very quickly, and I'm just wrapping things up. And as I have more and more time to myself to just open unscheduled time to do what I want, I'm feeling happier and happier and more and more comfortable with the decision that I made. And I will certainly miss work and the people and, you know, that doesn't go away. But the overall feeling is freedom and excitement about what's next. So, yeah, if you can do it, even if you have a job that you feel like is your identity, I think you have to really check yourself and see if it really is. And it might be, but I don't think it's mine.

Ginger (54:58)

Yeah. One thing I ask people in my work a lot is sort of like, what is that thing you want the most? What is underneath this? And people always think the same thing, which is freedom and that. You have used that word so many times, like, unburdened. Unburdened.

Laura (55:12)

Yeah. It's great.

Ginger (55:13)

Like, you're really in alignment with that. Yeah.

Laura (55:15)

So far, so good.

Ginger (55:16)

We're excited for you.

Laura (55:17)

Thank you. Thank you for talking to me. I appreciate it. Yeah. It's nice to meet you.

Ginger (55:21)

And thank you, everyone, for listening with us to the end and we will talk to you soon.

Eric (55:27)

Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the choose if I community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player. Just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choosefi.com subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there and I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox. So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a vi local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a vi.com local and you'll find a list of all of Those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with FI or you have a family member or friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways choose a Fi episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the Fi community. And even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life and then choose if I created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free, just head to choosefi.comfi101 and again, thanks for listening.