B (3:20)

Am I panicked myself or am I panicked for these 60 year olds with $4 million?

A (3:25)

No, I want to know if you're panicked for yourself, right? Like, oh, no. Because I think it inspires. It's not logical, right?

B (3:32)

It's not logical.

A (3:33)

When I see this, I'm like, they're fine. I'm fine. Everything is fine. But when this expert comes on and says, hey, you should really think about this. This could be a huge mistake, it really give pause of like, oh, no, is everything I'm thinking incorrect? Am I doing something stupid? And what I'm wondering is you having the experience of, hey, I think it's probably gone okay for you. From what I can tell from your podcast, do you still sometimes have panic or fear around? Like, wait, is this okay?

B (4:05)

Yeah. So it was 1000. Sorry, I was just asking Siri how many days it's been since I retired. For context. Right. We retired May 6, 2022.

A (4:17)

Okay.

B (4:18)

I remember the date fondly. And we've been retired for 1,251 days. That's a little over three and a half years for those who don't want to do the math and, like, the level of panic. That's a great question. I sort of equate panic with fear and anxiety. I think they're all sort of, you.

A (4:36)

Know, they're all cousins.

B (4:37)

Yeah, they're all cousins. Brothers, sisters, cousins, something. It has gone down over time. So it was ironically, quite high when I was working. It was like anticipatory worry and panic of taking this, what felt like a very, in some ways at the time, like, irresponsible plunge into a very different lifestyle. And irresponsible in the sense of, like, I was always raised and taught to, like, do good in school, get good grades, get a good job, buy a house. Blah, blah, blah. And that. That was success, right. And I was on the path to success, and I was doing really well. And so to me, it felt very scary and irresponsible to, like, walk away from all of that and go live what I would. You know, I don't feel like my life is like, that unconventional, but compared to, like, that sort of redirect for myself and my husband and my family was unconventional for the average person around us, I'd say. And so, yeah, my level of panic and fear was, like, quite high at the time and leading up to it, and it's what maybe sort of slowed it and gave us a little bit of, like, one more year syndrome and stuff. But, boy, as soon as we actually made the plunge, it has slowly gone down over the last three and a half years, and it's like an inverse relationship of, you know, you can't see me on video listeners, but, you know, I'm making a big. I'm making a chart with my arms, so it is a beautiful chart. So do you chalk that up to.

A (6:05)

You gained some confidence around, like, oh, yeah, this is gonna work?

B (6:10)

Yeah, because all the things I was afraid of, which I'm happy to list out for you at some point, have not come to fruition. And so, you know, you don't. You gain confidence when you do something and you either fail and get back up again or you realize, like, it was an irrational fear. Right. And some of my things were irrational. Some of mine were. You know, I've managed workaround. You know, there's things that I have done to mitigate what I was afraid of. So I've proactively done it. Some of it was just naturally, like, there was nothing to be afraid of. And also, like, the market's been great the last few years. I got to give a shout out to that. That helps.

A (6:46)

Sure, that helps.

B (6:47)

But even if it wasn't, everything would still be okay long term, I believe.

A (6:51)

Yeah. Yeah. We want to hear what are the things like, let's just go there. In terms of when you took this leap, what were the things that you were afraid of?

B (7:00)

Well, look, I was afraid of a lot of things, but the two biggest things is I was afraid that I'd run out of money and that I would just, in general, regret walking away from a career that was paying me incredibly well. And I was afraid that aside from the money aspect of it, that I would regret walking away from my identity that I had built at work. Right. I had kind of gotten to what was honestly, like, a higher level than if you'd asked my like, you know, teenage or early 20 year old self, like, how far I'd get in my career. I think I had like, confidence, but I don't think I really knew much about stuff and I think I did. I surprised myself even in a way. I mean, in a way I didn't perhaps, but like, I was worried that I would regret walking away from a title, an identity, a career, you know, being a well respected leader within a well respected organization and that I would regret that. And it wasn't something I could just walk back into if I was like, oh, you know, I left my nursing job and they'd, you know, hire me back next week if I want to come back in. You know, I gave up, they rehired someone. I can't go right back into that same role.

A (8:10)

Yeah, maybe this isn't quite a yes or no question, so we can. It can be a little bit fuzzier. But do you. Have you regretted in any way?

B (8:20)

No. It's a no. It is a yes or no question. No. Yeah, I. In no way. You know, there's elements I miss here and there, but it's not the level or the. I mean, me thinking that that was like such a big piece of my identity was just. I haven't even talked about this a ton, but like, it was just because I was so caught up in spending so much of my life on that aspect that I thought it was, you know, 90% of my life, but that's not true. It was, you know, to use the word inverse again. It was like me, you know, that was 10% of my life, right? Me, my kids, my husband, my family, my friends, my community. Like that was 90% of my life and I was spending 90% of my time on work even though it was of 90th. I'm really screwing some numbers up here, but you know what I mean? No, in no way did that fear come to fruition. I was very worried about it. I'd say equally worried between that and the money element, the identity and the money. And I didn't need to be afraid of either.

A (9:23)

Yeah. I've shared a little bit on the show that I had another career until about six years ago. And it was similar in that it was one I wasn't going to get back in once I left. And so even though I really, really, really wanted to do something different, I was very confident about that. I did have fears about, you know, other people don't quit this job because then that's it. But what was so surprising to me is that once I got on the other side of it, it's sort of like you, where I'm just like, absolutely not. It completely went away.

B (9:56)

I had no.

A (9:57)

Sometimes people ask me for my old job, like, oh, do you miss it? No, nothing. Like, I'm so happy. And it really has made me think, like, I asked you that question because I wonder how much of that is a universal experience where you have to actually do the thing. Like, you have to take that leap before you get to have that feeling of like, oh, it's okay.

B (10:20)

Yeah, exactly. And that's one of the ways you can. Sometimes I'm like, should I use words like this that I don't really know? There's a more basic word for this, but like assuage. Did I say that right?

A (10:30)

Nice word.

B (10:32)

I'm like, busting out some sat words. One of the ways you can assuage. I'm probably using it wrong or saying it wrong, but one of the ways you can mitigate that fear is actually just responsibly do it. But no. Even if I couldn't get back, that's what I told myself. Even if I can't get back into the exact same job in the exact same company, I'm re employable in a heartbeat. Maybe not now, three and a half years later, I'm slightly less re employable, perhaps because I've just been out of the game for a while. But a week later, I'm super employable. Right. And I need to remember, even if I couldn't go back to that job, I could always go back to a job. My husband Greg and I would have this conversation. We're like, look, if we really got into money trouble, like, I'd go work at Starbucks, I'd get insurance, I'd get free coffee. It'd be great. So we just remind every one of our fears. I mean, I have this whole process I went through to deal with my fears, and that was one of them, is like reminding myself, like, I'm a strong, capable, driven person. And if any of these anticipatory fears, some rational and some irrational, come to fruition, I have things I can do to deal with them. You know, I'm not at their mercy, if you will.

A (11:45)

So you had confidence that, hey, I could still make money. And then you also had a very specific backup plan, like, I can work at Starbucks.

B (11:54)

Yes. Or rei. I had a list of places. I mean, all sorts of levels I could go back to. But I'm just saying, like, my true Fear would be that I can't put a roof over my kid's head and put food on the table. Right. The basics, which was, again, an irrational fear for that. Right. My real fears were things like, what if I wanted a new car? Could I afford one? Right. Like, they were very privileged things. I literally had a list of fears in a spreadsheet, and I put a dollar amount against each of them.

A (12:21)

What does that mean?

B (12:23)

So I said, like, financially, when I'm like, what am I afraid of? If I'm afraid of running out of money, I made a list of them. I could dig it up somewhere. It was like, what if I want to get a Tesla?

A (12:33)

And so then you'd write, okay, I would need this.

B (12:35)

What the cost of a Tesla. Which was like, at the time, I just was like, I really want an ev. But it was kind of like, what if I want to buy a new car? What if I want the luxuries that I felt like I had worked really hard for?

A (12:45)

Right.

B (12:45)

What if my kids get into, like, a really good college and it's much more expensive than I had planned on college being. What if college costs four times as much? What if I have a medical emergency and I end up having to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to go cure my cancer? Private. I don't know. You know, just these again, kind of, like, I guess it could happen, but there's a rare chance. I had put a dollar amount on all those. I said, what if my mom needs. What if one of one of our parents needs, like, really expensive care? That's, like, we hadn't really planned on. And I put a dollar. An estimated dollar amount on all of these things. And I kind of had them as, like, buffer and margin in my financial plan to say, look, not all of these things are going. 25% of these things happen. Like, I'd still be okay. So what am I so worried about? And if all of them happened, I could go back to work. I got to the point where I was, like, more afraid. For a long time, I was afraid of leaving my job. Something just flipped, and I could. I maybe could point to what. But, like, some things flipped, and I finally got to the point where I was more afraid of not leaving my job.

A (13:49)

What flipped? You know, the moment.

B (13:51)

Well, no, it wasn't actually a moment. It was a few moments over the course of a few years. And it was during COVID which I think many people had some, like, insights during COVID of all the bad things that happened. We were pretty fortunate in the sense that we got a taste of a little more time and freedom in our lives. We still had busy jobs, and we were at home kind of like, quote, homeschooling. Three kids all of a sudden. I mean, they were in public school, but it seemed like we were doing a lot and trying to work. And, like, our jobs were actually pretty busy because of what was happening with COVID and because of where we worked and stuff. But we got, like, we could sneak away and go for a walk in the middle of the day. Our commutes went away. We got a little bit more of a taste of, like, more time with our family, and we liked it. That was one thing. We started realizing we had enough money, and I had just had some, like, life is short moments. You know, I went through, like, a bit of an unexpected divorce. My dad died. I had a new baby, and I just was like, you know, I was just getting into, like, raising kids, and it changed my perspective. So I think all of those things kind of came together around similar times. You know, again, not one moment, not one day. It wasn't like, you know, one aha moment. But it was a few things that made me feel like I could do this and this is the right time.

A (15:16)

So I love the idea, the specific strategy of. Yeah, I actually wrote down all those fears and added up what it would cost and did some probability work there. I'm wondering how that influenced your phi number. So I guess the question is, how did you get to your phi number and how did these possibilities. How did you stop those fears from making it unbelievably high?

B (15:46)

Yeah. So I think part of it helps that I was sort of in a new category of fire that I labeled. I labeled it like fear fire for a while, and then I also labeled it lazy fire, which is my numbers were rough. Like, super rough. For someone who actually took the plunge and left their job, I had not done really detailed calculations. I hadn't used, like, the cfire SIM tool or any of these things that do, like, a Monte Carlo simulation and all. I hadn't used any of that until I actually left. Made me feel better then. But I knew the 25 times rule. I was, I'd say, like a very high earner and had aggressively saved for a long time, didn't invest, and hadn't done a lot of other things smartly. That's not a word, I think, but I knew the 25 times. And so I had some buffer above that. Gotcha. And it was that rough. It was like, well, I've got the 25 times worked out. And I kind of knew, Like, I think there's so many factors that go into things of, you know, I had already paid off my house, so I knew I had a place to live. I knew that we could live much more lean if we wanted to and needed to. I knew that there were a lot of levers I could pull in both directions. I knew that I could do some, like, side hustle stuff and make a little bit of money. We have some rental property properties, so we had some different levers we could pull. And so, again, my numbers were pretty rough in the first place. And so when you're starting with rough numbers, you're just throwing on more rough numbers, if that makes sense. I think some people get so caught up in the numbers that they're like, you know, that they're just overanalyzing things to some extent more than is necessary. And look, if you like that, if that's your thing and you nerd out getting into that and spending a lot of time with it, like, go for it, you know, I just was at a point in my life where I didn't have a lot of time to do that. Ironically, I didn't have the time to do that until I left work, which was, you know, it was like I had to take the plunge first and then hope that it was right. And. Yeah, I don't know if that helps.

A (17:51)

Yeah, I think you're right. Like, if it's fun, do it. But you can really see how there's a point at which it's not useful anymore.

B (17:58)

Yeah, it's the 80, 20 rule. Like, I did 80% of the work, the math. Right. I didn't want to spend another 80% of my time doing the rest of the 20% of the math. I just was like, this is good enough. And it has been. Yeah.

A (18:15)

All right, so you had a good job. Lots of people have good jobs. How did you get here?

B (18:22)

Oh, how did I get to the good job?

A (18:24)

No, how did you get to financial independence? Because I know you have shared a little bit, like, oh, you didn't make all the best decisions, or you weren't involved in this community until, I don't know, decade ago. A couple years ago.

B (18:37)

Yeah, I hadn't heard of. Someone recently asked me about, like, my timeline, and I went through an exercise to better document it, and it was actually kind of fascinating. So have you heard the term bag lady syndrome?

A (18:50)

Absolutely. We all live it.

B (18:52)

Yes, I think I had bag lady syndrome from an early age. Self diagnosed, to be clear. And as a result of that, I also think I was raised pretty, like, frugally. Right. Like, I think both my dad especially was like, you know, my parents would splurge on stuff sometimes, but we had a very, like, average middle class. You know, we didn't have money. I didn't get everything. I had to work hard for stuff. I had to have a job. I had to help pay for things. I think my parents. Without actually actively talking about finances a lot, my parents instilled in me a lot of good financial habits, which, again, I don't think they were, like, proactively doing. I think, you know, I don't think it was, like, a thoughtful, intentional thing. I think it's just the way they were and the way they kind of had to be. Yeah. And they didn't have a massive amount of money to throw upon us. And so they were like, oh, you want to do that? Like, go get a job or, you know, here, I'll pay you a dollar to do a load of laundry. And so I think my brother and I were just sort of like, we had good work ethic and we were interested in working and earning money, and we recognized the value of hard work and that it would earn us things. And so I already had that. I was pretty, like, motivated and driven, and I think, who knows if it's like, nature or nurture, but it was here. And when I started working, I had some bag lady syndrome. And I was like, I saved a decent amount as a result, and so I actually didn't know what to do with that savings for a long time. When I started making more money, I was, like, looking for a financial planner. And I was always like, oh, I need to find someone who's the right person and pay them and have them tell me what I should do with this money. And I was pretty busy, so I, like, never quite made progress on that goal. Every now and then, I actually did meet with a couple, like, did have some not so great experiences, for what it's worth, but interesting, like, learning experiences and wasted some money on some experiences too. So I was just sitting money in, like, a bank account. Not even a high yield savings account. It was very. It was very upsetting to my, like, you know, current self, the things I was doing. But I was saving, right. And so, you know, I had various, like, changes. I got divorced at one point, met my husband. Now a few years later, got remarried. He's got two kids. By then we were in our, you know, mid-30s and we were talking a lot about finances. Together. So I know I'm getting kind of like I'm going down a bunch of paths. But I think the key things to me of like how I did it is I saved early on. I aggressively paid off my mortgage. At times I didn't know what to do with my money. So I did pay off my mortgage even when I had a low interest rate. I know people don't, you know, there's a lot of debates on that, but it made me feel great. I slept great at night. I don't think I'd go back and change it. Even though I know I could have better optimized my money. It just felt really good. And so I was throwing a lot of like, extra. Even when I got divorced, I was like, cool, I can afford to keep my house, but I'm like aggressively paying my mortgage off. And I eventually learned about fire, learned about like low cost index funds, but not until my. I think I was like 36 when I bought my first stock of any sort. Really?

A (21:54)

What?

B (21:54)

Yeah, I did have a mutual fund with my ex husband. It has small amount of money in it that we had been putting in like some automated thing. And it was like. It was a TIAA CREF mutual fund. I remember it. Yeah. And in our divorce, we split it up. It was not a lot of money, but that was all I had ever done. And I just didn't understand. I was not like schooled on the power of compound interest. I didn't know what to do. It was very overwhelming. I thought I had to hire someone to tell me what to do and I was too busy working and all that. The other thing I did is I didn't inflate my lifestyle. I continued living very similarly in my mid-20s into like now. Yeah.

A (22:31)

I think this is so encouraging for people to hear. Hey, I had some habits in place, but I didn't start doing these things that we talk about doing in this community until I was 36.

B (22:43)

Yeah, I mean, the big thing I was doing is I spent less than I made. That's a huge pillar that everybody should be doing.

A (22:50)

The most important.

B (22:51)

Yeah, the most important. The second most important is like invest the difference because otherwise you'll lose money over time due to inflation. And so I was not doing the second piece, but I did the first piece and I did it pretty well. And I was a high earner and so I was able to catch up, if you will.

A (23:08)

So you're 36 or so and something changes.

B (23:13)

Yeah, so I'm 36. Nothing really changed that dramatically when I was 36. Other than that's when I started investing a little bit. And by a little bit, I mean I learned about Wealthfront and I started doing robo investing, and I at least had a place to throw my money that wasn't earning nothing, which was before that. And I was starting to make significantly more money in the few years leading up to that. I had gotten promoted to a VP at work when I was around 34. And so with that came almost a doubling of my salary. Not salary, my total compensation, between my salary and bonus and other benefits. And so I, all of a sudden, I doubled my income and did not double my expenses. So I had a lot of extra money and I did start putting a good bit in Wealthfront. That's when I got really aggressive on paying off my mortgage. That was also right around. I had gotten divorced in my early 30s. I had met Greg, my husband. Now I'm in kind of my mid-30s. And so it wasn't actually until I was 39 that I saw the documentary Playing with Fire. And that was when I really got a taste of what Fire was. And I had a little bit of, whoa, whoa. There's a different path in life. Yeah. And also before that, when I was in, like, maybe probably like 37, 38. Kirsten and Julian from Rich and Regular. I worked at the same company as them, and they started. I actually went back and looked at it. They started their blog, Rich and regular, in 2018, and they had talked about it some at work. And I'm sure some people were like, did not care. Wasn't their thing. But I was, like, really into it. I was like, ah, this is so cool. And I was, like, reading it. And so that was like, some of my first exposure. Then I saw this Playing with Fire movie. Then that same year, I started working with Mike, who I started the Friends on Fire podcast with in 2020. And he was like my first kind of financial friend that we would, like, really talk about finances in detail. So all these things kind of happened actually in like, my late 30s. And then, you know, just a couple years later, like three years later, Greg and I both early retired on the same day. Actually, it was more like, yeah, three to four years later.

A (25:17)

Incredible.

B (25:18)

But we had been doing these, like, yeah, puzzle pieces. We just didn't exactly know what we were doing them for. I was actually. I was kind of doing them for my bag lady syndrome. I was like, I don't know what, but, like, the floor is going to fall out from under me soon. I had a Little bit of like imposter syndrome. I was like, you know, someday someone at work is going to realize, like, I don't know what I am doing. They're going to kick me out of here and we better have something to, you know, back up on. And yeah, I'm all over the place. I hope I answered that in some way.

A (25:46)

I think it's such an inspiring story because it means wherever you're at. Right. Like you.

B (25:50)

Yeah.

A (25:51)

You can get to where you need to go.

B (25:52)

Yeah.

A (25:54)

Okay, so let's fast forward a little. What's your life like now?

B (25:58)

It's a good question.

A (26:00)

Let me put a little bit of theoretical context to it.

B (26:05)

Yeah.

A (26:06)

Which is, of course, if you had stayed at your fancy job right then today you might have four Teslas or.

B (26:16)

Kids could have a Tesla. Right. You'd be falling out.

A (26:19)

It is something that you must think about sometimes. I do that there was a real trade off to have the life that you have now.

B (26:28)

I like to travel with my children. Every time I walk through first class to the back of the plane with my kids and we sit in coach, I give a little, you know. First off, when I traveled for work, I used to get to fly first class when it was overseas, which is a lovely perk. And it was only a perk I had at work. I never used it in my personal life. And my kids are always like, when do we get to sit up here? And I was like, never. Guys go get a job. And we're like, you know, we've flown out of the country with our kids. Like, our kids have been to like, I don't know, 14 or 15 countries. So they live very lovely lives in coach, though. And so I do walk through and sometimes I do think, oh, we could fly first class everywhere. But the problem is the way I spend money, like, intentionally. I think even if I was making that money, I'm not sure if I'd allow myself to spend 50 grand on flight tickets, you know?

A (27:23)

Right.

B (27:24)

I don't think I could do it. It's like not in my DNA. And so I'm just not sure I was even like, fit for that kind of money and lifestyle, you know, Like, I like a little bit of like a stoic exercise of moderation and minimalism. And I just think it actually makes me happier. And I truly, like, I appreciate nice things and I like nice quality things, but I truly believe and know like in my soul that money doesn't buy happiness. Right. Like, and so I, I mean, look, money buys some nice comforts in Life, you know, I love to sit in first class, but, like, I'm okay and coach, right? I'm gonna be okay. And there might be a day that I, you know, like, if I was flying. I upgraded my mom to first class once, like, flying to London or something, and, like, that was lovely, you know, the first and last time she flies in first class. But. But, like, I just. Yeah, I do sometimes think about what I would be doing if I had still had money. And my kids will sometimes mention something, and I'm like, oh, if only I had kept working, you know. Oh.

A (28:27)

It just, like, gutted me, though, when you just said, like, money doesn't buy happiness. And we, of course, we hear that all the time. But to hear it in that context of, yeah, the only thing maybe that you gave up was dying with more.

B (28:42)

Millions, passing more to my kids or something, which I don't really think would teach them anything also. Right. And I think a lot about my kids and, like, the lifestyle and the lessons I want them to learn. And I want them to learn about moderation, and I want them to learn that they need to work for things and that they need some skin in the game on certain things. And, look, I want them to have, in some ways, like, a, quote, easier life than I had. Right. And not that I had a difficult life, to be clear. I'm just saying, like, look, I got a junior who's taken five AP classes and in an ACT prep class and doing two varsity sports. She's really stressed out, and she babysits sometimes, but she doesn't have a job. And I worked a lot when I was her age doing the same stuff. Yeah. And I appreciate that. Like, you know, my kids can have some luxuries that I didn't have because of what we do have, but I also think, you know, when we're taking them on cool summer trips, they can fly coach. It's a. You know, it's a humbling. It's not even humbling. I, like, laugh when I say that, but you know what I mean, like, they're gonna be fine. They live a very privileged life and all the ways that matter. And if I had a lot more money, I'm not sure I would be spoiling them to use that word. Right. And I'm sure people have different points of views on that, but, like, for me, I don't think I'd be spending it all on them or myself.

A (30:05)

I get what you're saying. I think it's something about, we can buy these things for our children. And increase, we could increase their pleasure, but that isn't going to increase their satisfaction or the meaning in their lives. And of course as parents, that's what we want.

B (30:21)

Especially at this age. Right. I have three teenage girls. Their brains are not fully developed. Right. Like if I gift you a first class ticket, you can recognize what or my mom even, right. She can recognize what a special and unique moment this is and like appreciate it. They will take it for granted and they will be like, when's the next first class ticket? You know.

A (30:42)

Okay, Maggie, can you tell us a little bit more? We're all so interested in your short timeline and I know that you said okay. Part of it was like I have these habits and then I was able to use my big paycheck. Can you tell us what else helped you to really fast track this?

B (31:02)

Yeah. So the thing that helped me, our company had something called a deferred compensation program. And I never fully understood or like believed in what it was until Mike again was my old co host on my first podcast which was called Friends on Fire. It's still out there by the way. We did like 200 episodes together. And his parents, they early retired. So he grew up as like a little fire baby fire teenager. And so he had a goal to early retire. That's kind of what we bonded over. And so he really pushed the company's DCP. And I was like what I've been doing like the minimum because there's a 2% company match if you're at a certain level. And so I was like I've been doing 2% since this started and you could do up to 75% of your salary. And it's essentially a tax optimization tool. I think of it as like a pre 401k so you can defer a percentage of your salary and not pay taxes on it. And it goes into a fund that you pick the investments for similar to like your 401k. There's some choices that the company has pre chosen pre selected that you can choose from of what to invest it in. I basically have mine invested in a total market index fund and I then get distributions out of it based on our company is a bunch of different rules. Every company has different rules. A lot of big companies do have deferred compensation programs.

A (32:18)

Okay.

B (32:19)

Even my husband worked for a non profit hospital and they a 457B which is a version of one. A lot of teachers have that available. Government workers and teachers and it's a similar program. They all have different rules on when you access the money, my husband could choose when he left, how he accessed his money and he could take it as a lump sum or over 10 year disbursements. I had to choose when I got into the program. Each year when I went into the program, I had to choose what the disbursement was when I left the company, which is hard to like predict.

A (32:53)

Like for example, what.

B (32:55)

So when I signed up in 2018 with my benefits that year. Just like you decide what percentage you're going to put into your 401k, but you can change that throughout the year, you decide what you want to put into your deferred compensation plan, you cannot change it throughout the year. You're locked in. So If I pick 10%, let's say I make $100,000, $10,000 of my salary, you know, obviously calculated per paycheck, is taken out and put into a deferred compensation plan. Just like my 401k, I can decide what to invest it in. But when I elect that money, when I sign up for that year's plan, I choose when it pays out. You can choose a year. So like one year I didn't know what to do. I chose the year my daughter would go to college because I was like, it'd be nice to get a lump sum. Then you can choose a single payment when you leave the company. You have no idea when that's going to be. You don't know if you'll get let go, but it's a lump sum when you leave. Or you can choose a number of years after you leave. So it kicks in when you leave, but it's over 10 years.

A (33:50)

Interesting.

B (33:51)

And the purpose of this is tax optimization. And so my last three years working 2020, 2021 and 2022, I deferred almost 75% of my salary because that's the max. I almost got like no paycheck for some of those years and I deferred it. And then you pay taxes on it when you get the disbursement out, or the distribution, if you will. And so I now am in a much lower tax bracket. When I was working that last amount of money I was earning, some of it was taxed in the high 30% and now I'm getting taxed in the low 20s below 20 even. Right? And so it's a huge way to aggressively kind of force your savings because you're locked in for the year and to optimize your taxes to again, it's for everyone who's like, oh, well, I don't have a dcp. The magic isn't just in the dcp, Right. You could do that with a brokerage account. Right. You're just, you're paying taxes on it differently, but you could still force an aggressive savings level yourself if you wanted to. And some people do that, and sometimes they do it long term, sometimes they do it for, you know, a couple years. But we definitely were living like, for us, a bit leaner those years. And we spend a lot more now in retirement than we did then. And we were very aggressively focused on getting ourselves in tip top shape for early retirement.

A (35:14)

Yeah. So then you're 41 years old. I liked how at the beginning of this conversation, you're like, oh, it's not that unconventional. What are you talking about?

B (35:23)

I do get a lot of looks when I tell people. People will ask what I do. Like, I take my mom to a lot of doctor's appointments and her doctors are always like, how are you so here all this time. And I was like, oh, I retired. And they're like, you look like a baby. And I was like, well, I'm 45. Thank you, 45 year old baby.

A (35:38)

Thank you. So as a 41 year old infant, when you told the people in your life I'm retiring, what was the response?

B (35:50)

I got a mix of responses. So, you know, the people closest to me, this wasn't a surprise, right. I started a podcast in 2020 with my friends on fire, right? So, I mean, at work, everybody knew about it. Wasn't like, I didn't surprise anyone. I gave like a year's notice at work. Nobody was surprised by this, but people that I didn't know as well were surprised by it. And I got all the responses under the sun. My favorite response is somebody who just looked at me and said, f you, but they said the forward. And I was like, I love that response. Because they meant it, like, in an endearing way. They meant it like, I would love to retire early. Like, I would like to dip out of this experience right now. So I thought that was the funniest response. And I still have a friend who I play pickleball with who has a job and we're always trying to, like, schedule times. And she still says that to me sometimes when she's like, stressed out at work. And I'm like, well, you know, I gotta go for a walk after this. So. But I got, I would say like 90% of people were quite, like, sincerely happy for us, including, like, our moms were very happy for us. I don't think they even, like, fully understood it, but they were like, good for you.

A (36:59)

Yeah.

B (37:00)

I did not get a lot of, like, fear from, you know, usually. I always wonder what my dad. My dad died almost 13 years ago. I wonder what he would have thought because he was a very, like, hard worker. And I wonder if he would have been, like. I think he would have been, like, very proud of me, especially when I, like, if I shared numbers with him and, like, told him, like, look, I'm gonna be okay.

A (37:24)

Yeah.

B (37:25)

But I think it would have been, like, so unconventional to him and, like, the generation he was raised in and how he had spent his whole life versus my mom was a little, like, she was, like, super happy for us and I think would have had, like, less. Not like, judgmental views, but, like, was a little more chill on, like. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, she was not as, like, into working as he was. I'll put it that way.

A (37:45)

Yeah.

B (37:45)

But most people were very sincerely happy for us. I think most people would be like, I'm super jealous. Like, how'd you do it? I got a lot more questions. Yeah. And curiosity than I did any sort of negativity. I got some people that were like, oh, I love my job. I would never want to do that. And I was like, look, I loved my job too. I just didn't love the volume of what came with this type and level of a job. And I just. I'm tired and I'm burnout and I want to live my life differently. Yeah.

A (38:18)

I think it's interesting how we often talk about, like, not knowing the right thing to say to someone when something hard happens. And yet also so many people are bad at responding to good news, which is why I asked that question. Right. Like, it's hard for a lot of people to kind of be faced with someone else's good news sometimes.

B (38:41)

Yeah. But I, again, I don't know if it's like, you know, sincere, because people have, you know, their surface level response to you, and then they have, like, what they'd go home and like, chit chat with their spouse about or something. But most people, I think it's either like a good friend who I think I really do believe is, like, genuinely happy for you, and then otherwise they're kind of an acquaintance anyways and they don't really, like, care that much, you know, like, they're just so busy with their own lives, they're not too caught up. And maybe again, some of them might be kind of intrigued and interested in, like, I meet more people, like, that for what it's worth, that, like, want to know how we did it and are fascinated by the concept of it and had never even crossed their mind.

A (39:20)

Yeah.

B (39:21)

Than I do anyone where I get a sense of, like, a lack of. You know, every now and then I meet someone where I'm like, you don't get it. Slash, it's just not your thing. And you can't even, like, wrap your head around it. And they, like, don't have a lot of outside hobbies and interests and, like, working. And again, it's not like I dislike working. I think purpose is incredibly important. And I spend. Oh, that's what you asked me earlier that I forgot, like, how I'm spending my days. I didn't even answer you. But, yeah, I'm pretty busy. But, like, I spend. I volunteer a ton. I do a ton of stuff with my kids, school. I'm on, like, a bunch of community boards. I'm super busy. Right. And I feel like I have a lot of purpose in my life right now, and if I didn't have that, I think I'd be very unhappy. Yeah.

A (40:09)

Well, one place I think I know that you get some purpose from is the podcast that you do. And one thing that is always so has been intriguing to me about your podcast is it's really, really well done. I can tell you spend a lot of time on it, but you intentionally don't make any money off it, which I think is really unusual. Not the not making money. I think that's really usual for a podcast, but that you really go out of your way to not make money from it.

B (40:40)

Yeah.

A (40:41)

And I don't know, can you talk about that a little bit?

B (40:44)

Yeah. So it gives me purpose. First off, I love it. I haven't missed when Mike said he wanted to leave Friends on Fire like he wanted to, you know, early retire. That podcast, which was about early retirement. Ironically, I started Inside Out Money and I planned it to launch the week after we had our last Friends on Fire episode. So I have not missed a Monday of putting it up. I actually put them out Sunday night since January 2020, which is when we launched Friends on fire. And then 2023 is when inside Out Money started and one ended and the other started. I have not missed a week of podcasting, and I can't say that for anything else in my life has had that level of consistency over the past five years.

A (41:24)

Yeah.

B (41:24)

So for me, it is a nice, like, anchor in a time when I, especially during early retirement, have felt a sense of, like, ennui like listlessness and untethered. Being untethered to something. I was so tethered to work for 20 plus years. It was a really good thing that tethered me to something. And I've gotten as much out of it as I've put into it. And I was very inspired by the minimalist podcasts. Have you ever listened to them? So they don't have ads and they have this joke, they're like, advertising sucks. And look, they make a lot of money off their podcast because they have Patreon subscribers and they make money off other stuff, books, and again, mostly subscribers. And for me, I was like, look, I don't. I don't mean to make this sound like all whatever, but like, I don't need the money, right? If this was my job, I needed. It's really hard to monetize a podcast anyways. So if I was trying to monetize something, no offense, but it wouldn't be podcasting. I have other skills that would make me more money in other areas. But I always liked that their podcast didn't have ads. I'm trying to, like, you know, suggest people live more intentionally and spend less. And so for me, it's kind of counterproductive to like, insert an ad in there, even if it's an ad for something I believe, you know, Like, I love Monarch. I push a lot of products. I'll take a little referral credit here and there. So, you know, I've gotten some free years on Monarch as a result of, you know, referral links and stuff. But I just don't, like, it's not the amount of money I would make from ads is not life changing to me. And right now, to me, like, this is my gift to other people. It's the resource I wish I had had when I was in my 20s, which was like an enjoyable, conversational, fun take of friends talking about financial topics, not a super detailed, dry, boring financial podcast. And so I just want to put out a good product. And if a meaningful amount of people are listening to it, it's worth my time. And I'm doing it with friends that I enjoy talking to. I got a rotating set of co hosts on Inside Out Money. They're all friends of mine from different aspects of life. I mean, one's like a childhood friend, One's an old work colleague, one's Liz, who I met online through podcasting and talking about financial stuff online. Oh, and one was my husband who sort of like quit the podcast recently, but I still make him come on sometimes. But it's fun for me. Right. It's like, people I enjoy catching up with, and I love putting out. You know, thank you for complimenting it. But, like, what I think is a decent product, not awesome, but, you know, good enough product out there. And I just, like, I don't want to monetize it. I do sell some stickers on Etsy pretty much at cost. They're like three bucks each. And that covers shipping and the cost of the sticker. Yeah. And a very nice card that I send you. But, you know, I. Every now and then I get my, like, $6 from Etsy because they take their fees out. So, you know. Do you have some stickers? I'm happy to send you some stickers. I send out more free stickers than I do paid stickers.

A (44:20)

Please send me stickers.

B (44:21)

Okay, well, you got to send me your. Hey, here's a fun thing. Like, maybe I could say the first 10 people that DM me on Instagram, I'm just making this up. Ginger.

A (44:32)

This is so fun. Keep going.

B (44:32)

There's 10 people that DM me on Instagram and tell me they heard this podcast. I will send free stickers to.

A (44:39)

This is so great.

B (44:40)

I have lots of fun stickers. I have ones that say, stop buying stupid sh. Asterisk tea. Go for a hike instead. I have ones that just say, stop buying stuff. I have ones that say, secret society of frugal people. I think I have some fun stickers so you can, like, you can go to my Etsy store, tell me which stickers you like. I'll send you free stickers.

A (44:57)

This is so fun. I've always appreciated. I guess I really have honed into. Whenever you've said something on the podcast about, like, not doing advertisements or not making money from the project because I think it normalizes something for me or makes me feel seen around. I like to do a lot of weird projects that don't make any money.

B (45:19)

Yeah, they're called hobbies. They're called passions. Right. Like, everything doesn't have to be monetized.

A (45:26)

Thank you. Yes, thank you.

B (45:28)

And look, no fault. Look, are you. Have you listened to the new Taylor Swift album?

A (45:32)

I have not. I'm the only person in America who hasn't.

B (45:35)

No, you're not. It's okay. I have three teenage girls who don't even like the new album. But Taylor, if you're listening, I really like it. Also, I'm impressed. If you're listening, I'm sure you're not. She has a song called Wish List. It's one of my favorites. And. Wait, can I just tell you the opening lyrics?

A (45:50)

Can you sing for us?

B (45:52)

Look, you know, we've been singing a lot on the podcast. Have you heard any of.

A (45:57)

I have.

B (45:57)

I thought I was singing.

A (45:58)

I thought it was worth an ass.

B (45:59)

Look, I got a terrible singing voice. I'll give you my light version, okay? Is it gonna be a light version? She's talking about this, like, in the intro lyric, she's talking about, like, all this fancy stuff people have and want and, like, you know, balency shades and chopper blades, yacht, whatever. And then she says they want it all and they should have what they want. They just. She's almost talking this part, so I am kind of singing. She's like, they want to. I don't know. And they should have what they want. They deserve what they want, hope they get what they want. I can't really sing. That's about all you get from me. But so, like, for me, I'm like, look, if you have ads in your podcast, like, no, shame. This podcast has ads in it, right?

A (46:42)

No, wait.

B (46:43)

None of the choosefy ones do.

A (46:45)

I think they used to back in the day, but not anymore.

B (46:48)

Yeah, well, congrats. But, like, people, it's fine if you have ads, right? And there's people who need to monetize their podcasts and they should do whatever you want, right? Like, I'm not throwing shade on other people. I'm just saying, like, for me, if I turn this, I know my personality and I know how I am. If I turn this into some things where its goal is to make money, it's going to kind of ruin it for me, and I'm going to treat it differently than I do now. And so for me, this is a passion project. I have categories of things in my life, and this is one where I am trying to give back to a world that has given a lot to me. And look, I got other areas where I do a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of financial coaching because I enjoy it. And sometimes people reach out and ask about it. I don't market it. That is taking time away from my family and other things I want to do. I charge for that because of that, right? But, like, I've chosen to put this podcast out there, and you don't need financial coaching if you just go listen to a bunch of free podcasts, you know? But some people want a little more hand holding, and that's fine. And I will charge for that. So it's not to say I'm not some, like, you know, not gonna, like, give away every last second of my time for free. But I enjoy doing the podcast and again, it has given me as much as I've put into it, and it has provided me something quite nice during my retirement. Also, when I talk about that sort of identity piece, I mean, I think I'd be fine without it. But it did give me something to tether myself to, if that makes sense, which I do enjoy.

A (48:24)

I do think it is kind of a radical thing now, though, just to say, hey, I do this thing for fun.

B (48:30)

Yeah. But like a radically good. We should do more of it.

A (48:34)

Absolutely.

B (48:34)

If you can afford. Not everyone. That's a privilege though, right? Not everyone can literally afford to do that. And so I can, and so I am. But yeah.

A (48:44)

Okay, let's talk about my favorite episodes on Inside Out Money that I referenced earlier on, about where you guys share all of your expenses. And I guess the more general question that I want to ask is something like, have you always been so open about money? Like, have you always been so transparent? Or is that something that you have kind of worked on because you see value in it?

B (49:15)

That's a good question. I've always been open about most things in life. Like, I'm a sharer. I'm a like, over sharer, perhaps. I mean, even at work, like, when I got to the point in my career where I was managing people, which I was doing at a fairly young age, there'd be times where I'm like, whoa, I'd be in some reorg discussions and I'm like, wait, we're not allowed to talk about this with people? This is awkward. I'm going to be with these people. And even in all team meetings, I was just an oversharer. I could keep confidential information confidential, but I told people more than they needed and wanted to know. And I give a lot of context and other things. So I'd say I've been an oversharer since I was just a wee kid. And my daughter is also. She gets it from me. But financially, I just didn't even. It wasn't even like a topic I was aware I could overshare about probably until I met Mike and we started talking pretty openly. He was like my finance business partner at work. He supported my function. And he was new. And somehow we got to talking about something and I think I asked him a question about my personal taxes. And I felt comfortable enough with him that I was like, I know this is not your job, but you seem very knowledgeable in this space. And he like it just opened the door to realizing, like we just started having more and more financial related discussions and now like anybody that wants to talk about financial stuff with me, like, I love to talk about it, but I think at the time I didn't even know it was on the table as a topic to discuss with people because like it's like a lot of things we were sort of taught that it was almost like uncouth to talk about financial stuff, you know, But I don't have a lot of. I'm not super proper. Right. So I was going to say I'm just not. I'm not super couth. I've never actually used the word that way. I just had to Google it to see if it was a word without the un in front of it.

A (51:08)

Yeah.

B (51:08)

What a Google thing it is. Yeah, it means cultured, refined and well mannered. I am not any of those things. For all the things my parents taught me, they never sent me to like finishing school or as even growing up in the South. What do you call like cotillion? Like my ex husband, like they go to cotillion and they like teach you all these very Southern thing. Sure. I grew up in Atlanta, it was not very southern. And no, nobody ever taught me stuff like that. No one like laid back family.

A (51:36)

No one ever taught you not to share how much dinner cost?

B (51:39)

Yeah, not at all. No.

A (51:41)

I love it.

B (51:42)

So now I'll talk about like somebody will be telling me something. I mean most people know I like have a podcast, but like I'm trying to think what someone was telling me the other day and I'm like, okay, but like how much did that cost? You know, I won't go ask somebody their salary. But when someone's like talking about how they had to go get some piece of work done on their house and they're like, oh, I had this plumbing issue, blah, blah, blah. I'll be like, oh, like was that expensive? And then I'll be like, oh, you might. If someone I don't really know, I'll even ask because it's not like a personal, like it's, it's not, it's like a very transactional question, you know, so it shouldn't. There's a spectrum of discussing finances, right? Like asking me how much your plumber charged you is very low on one end. Me asking you how much money you make is like at the other end. Or like what's in your bank? You know, what's your net worth is at the high end.

A (52:26)

Right.

B (52:27)

I don't Ask anybody that question, unless they want to tell me.

A (52:29)

Yeah, I was trying to think about. So to give context for people who haven't heard these episodes. So there's four of you, right?

B (52:38)

Yeah. My husband, Liz, Erica, Andrew.

A (52:41)

Yes. And so they're all on the episode, and they're all sharing, like, category by category for six months. Hey, this is how much we spent on restaurants.

B (52:51)

And we're all quite different, right? Well, kind of similar, but I mean, different in many ways. Andrew buys, like, one coffee per six months. His wife, and it's not even him. One coffee per six months. It's like $10. She went to Dunkin Donuts once.

A (53:05)

Yeah. So they're very different. And that is critical. That's what makes it so interesting. And then you, as the listener, get to kind of figure out, oh, where do you kind of fit in? And I was trying to think, like, what is appealing about this? Is it just because I want to hear someone who spends way more, and then I can feel good about myself? Or, like, I hear someone who spends way less, and then I. But I think there is something about. Because we don't talk about money very much generally.

B (53:34)

Right.

A (53:34)

Like, we're not allowed to ask each other's salaries or whatever, how much we spend on those pants. I just feel like I'm floating out there sometimes, you know? And so it's not so simple to say, oh, just spend on what you value. It is actually helpful to kind of see what other people. People are doing. So I do think it is. It is really useful to just actually listen in on a conversation or have a frank conversation with a friend about what this looks like in your life.

B (54:04)

So here's my theory on it. First off, there's just a little bit of, like. I was gonna say voyeuristic, but I just googled that. And that has, like, a sexual connotation. But you know what I mean? Like, all of us have some sort of, like, you know, inquisitive, nosy. Like, we want to know what's happening. I mean, Liz will admit this all the time. Right. She just wants to know what's happening with, you know, she's. We're curious people. Yeah. And that's just by nature. I think there's a comparative piece, too. So you think about, like, you know, kids are super comparative. Right. And you slowly hope you age out of, like, not comparing yourself to others. And we get a little bit better with wisdom, but it's natural for us to have a curiosity and to compare ourselves to others. And also, like, you know, I spent 20 years working in corporate America. Benchmarking was a huge thing, Right? That is a professional way of comparing yourself to others. Right. You know, the definition of benchmarking is to evaluate or check by comparison with a standard. So you don't know if you're spending a lot or a little till you compare it to somebody else. And often somebody else in, like, a similar demographic's not the right word. But, like, you know, Liz doesn't have kids. She has a partner, no kids. Erica has a partner and two kids. Myself and Greg, we're a blended family, and we have three kids. They're not with us all of the time. So there's like, all these different comparisons, you know, And Andrew's married and has two kids, yet somehow spends like a third of what me and my family spend. But separate point is interesting, too, but I always think of, like, we like comparing, like, utilities cost, right? That that's a. A commodity to compare. But, like, you don't know if your electric bill is high or low until you compare it to somebody else's. And then all of a sudden, you're like, wait a minute, what size? I mean, we've done this on the podcast where I'm like, andrew, how is your bill this cheap? And we're starting to compare what we're paying per therm with which gas company. And I'm like, you live in a different county than me in Atlanta, but you live 30 minutes away, and you're paying half the price I'm paying for gas, for natural gas. How's that possible? So anyways, I just think comparison can be such a bad thing. I'm mixing, like, 10 points here, ginger, but I'm going to land this plane soon. We have an episode called Comparison is the Thief of Joy. I did not coin that phrase, as, you know, I don't know who did that, but it's a great phrase. It is the thieva joint. But there are times when comparison is incredibly helpful.

A (56:25)

Yes.

B (56:25)

And comparing what you pay for life insurance to somebody else is helpful. It's how I realized I was paying too much for life insurance. And then I got another quote and realized I could be paying a fifth of what I paid for the same policy at an older age. And so you don't know until you start to compare this stuff. And so if we all live our financial lives, which is a huge, like, we all have to spend money to live, like, one thing we all have in common as human beings is, like, we're spending money in some capacity Whether a little bit, whether a lot, whatever. And we don't know what is good, what's bad, what's normal, what's average, what's high, what's low, whatever. It means nothing until it's compared to somebody else. And I think that's. That, to me, is why those episodes are so interesting, because they are some of our most popular episodes. And I love seeing what other people are paying for things. Yeah.

A (57:16)

I guess let's just loop it back to the beginning where I was like, okay, for some reason, I can't stop reading case studies. And it's the same reason. It's because you want to find someone who's kind of like you and, like, how are they doing it? And what is the advice that this person is getting? And it's. Yeah, it's useful. It's helpful.

B (57:35)

Yeah. And hopefully that, you know, I want people to take the good from that comparison and that view into someone else's life. I really encourage people to, like, dampen down the part of comparison that is the thief of joy. Right. And that's a heart. Right. That's mindfulness. It takes a lot of, you know, training of your mind and brain and wisdom and maturity and other things to get to that point. And I feel like I've gotten to a pretty good place with that. Right. Like, I can look at what someone else has and still appreciate. And if they have way more than I do, I still appreciate. And I'm incredibly thankful for what I have. It's still interesting to see, like, what they have and how they're living their life.

A (58:15)

Yeah.

B (58:15)

But I don't want it to, like, make me feel bad about my own choices. I want to use just. I just want to take the good parts. Like, there are good things about comparing yourself and to tie it back to fear. There's good things about having fear. Right. Fear stops us from doing stupid stuff. Like, fear stops us from putting our hand on a hot stove. We know that's going to hurt, so we don't do it. But fear also stops us from doing good things and taking chances and jumping off the cliff of early retirement is something that fear stopped me from doing for a little while, but eventually I got past. But it's like comparison. Right. There's good and bad angles and perspectives on it.

A (58:52)

And so the guiding question there for both of those is, is this useful?

B (58:57)

Yeah. That's a great take on it.

A (58:59)

Okay, let's wrap up by. You mentioned that you value travel, so let's end on something fun.

B (59:06)

Okay.

A (59:07)

Tell us what Are some places that you have traveled with children that you would recommend?

B (59:17)

Oh, gosh.

A (59:18)

Right.

B (59:19)

It's a different beast. Yeah, it is a different beast. But I can't think of any places I've been that I wouldn't also go to with my kids other than, like, sometimes I just want alone time as an adult. Right. And so. But I think you can take kids just about anywhere. It's more of, like, their age and their. Your enjoyment level based on, like. I'm not suggesting you, like, you know, traipse around the world with toddlers, though. Some people do and they, you know, they do it in the right way. But some of my least enjoyable trips with kids were when my kids were much, much younger. Yeah, they're, like, so much more fun to travel with now. And, you know, in the past few years, even we have been. Let me think. Can I give you a fun stat real quick?

A (60:01)

Yes.

B (60:03)

We have taken our kids to 12 countries. Oh, that is a fun. Since. Not since our retirement, but, like, since Greg and I met.

A (60:11)

Yeah.

B (60:11)

And I never really even traveled out of the country. I never did as a kid at all. The first time I ever traveled out of the country was when I was getting my MBA in my mid-20s and I just wanted to get a class credit faster and I could go to Buenos Aires for two weeks to get a whole class completed. And it was like a fair excuse for work. So anyways, we've. And we've been to even more countries without our kids, but I think you could take kids anywhere, so I wouldn't let the location limit you. I think it's more like who you are and what you like to do and what your kids will enjoy. I've certainly learned lessons on when you have kids of a certain age, which really is any age, you got to do stuff they want to do or you're going to be miserable. If you plan, like, an adult trip and then drag your kids along, nobody's having fun. Not the adults or the kids. So we've been all over Europe with our kids. We've been to Australia. We've been to Iceland. This past summer, we got married in Canada. That was the first trip we took our kids on is when we got married. It was just us and the kids, and we're trying to go to Asia with the kids this summer. They're, like, really excited to see a new continent. And yeah, I think you can. I think it just depends, like, where you're going and, you know, just making sure there's some. You feel comfortable personally And I think I've heard people say they don't even feel comfortable going to certain countries. And I'm like, I've been there and it's like I felt incredibly safe and, you know, so I think it's more your own style and what you feel good about. But I don't think there should be any limitations.

A (61:34)

All right, we want some specifics. At least two places that you went that were fun that you would want to go back to.

B (61:43)

I mean, Ireland was one of my favorite trips with the kids.

A (61:46)

Was it?

B (61:47)

It was also just like. It's funny, my husband was saying Scotland was maybe his, and I was like, no, I liked Ireland better. But I think it was like the age of my kids too. They were younger, but they were just like really sweet and innocent when I look at pictures of them. Not that they're not sweet sometimes they're sweet and innocent now, but they're 13 to 17, so. And they're all girls, so you can put that together yourself. But I just, I have fond memories of all these. Like, Greg and I are always looking at, back at pictures from some of these trips. And like, we've got like a digital picture frame in the kitchen that's always rotating pictures. And so I don't know, that's one of my best ones. And then I'd also say Australia. We did three weeks in Australia not two summers ago, and that was really fun. And we did a six week trip right when we retired. That was to like celebrate our retirement where we went to six different countries. That was a really fun trip, but it was exhausting. It was like too much, constantly moving too much. And so we try to do like much more slower travel now. But I. Okay, I'm gonna give you specifics. Ireland and Australia.

A (62:46)

Okay, good job.

B (62:47)

Two of my best memories with the kids.

A (62:50)

Okay, speaking of Australia, I mean, any tips for surviving, like whatever horrendous, like 30 hour flight?

B (62:57)

Oh, no, just the usual stuff. Like I always plan. I mean, you know, like, drink a lot of water, get up and move a lot. You know, kids are crazy resilient. Like, we're the ones that are half tired. My kids are kind of like comatose. But they'll sleep anywhere. You know, they'll sleep on like a bench in the airport. Yeah, they sleep in the most uncomfortable positions on airplanes that I've ever seen. And, you know, they're kind of cranky. Sometimes I try to just plan the first day I land somewhere I don't have plans. Yeah. So that's my biggest advice. Is just you lose a day. Yeah. Getting yourself situated. And like, I don't mind just spending a day, like being lazy in a hotel if that's what everybody wants to do to get their acts back together to enjoy the next day.

A (63:40)

It's a pretty good tip.

B (63:41)

Oh, look, I do have good tips.

A (63:44)

Okay, we'll end on that. Great tip. Thank you, Maggie, so much. I was so excited that you were willing to come on the show and chat with us. And I feel like I really followed through on the promise from the introduction where I said you will find find something helpful and meaningful from Maggie.

B (64:00)

Yeah, I hope so. And if not, I'll send you a sticker to apologize.

A (64:04)

Yes. Don't forget the sticker thing, guys. Okay, so where are they going to? What's your Instagram?

B (64:09)

My Instagram is nsideoutmoney.

A (64:12)

Okay.

B (64:13)

Or you can go to the website@insideoutmoney.org but if you go to Instagram first, 10 people who DM me and say, I heard you on Choose Fi with Ginger and then tell me what stickers you want, I'll send them to you. I can even. I have these international stamps. I never use them. Like every now and then. So all over the world, world.

A (64:28)

It's opened up to a world competition. I'm so excited. All right, thank you everyone for listening and we'll catch you next time.

C (64:37)

Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the choosefy community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player, just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choose if I.com subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there. And I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox. So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a vi local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a vi.com local and you'll find a list of all of Those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with fi or you have a family member or friend who you think would be interested. Two easy ways choose a FI episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community. And even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up. And it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life? And then choose if I created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free, just head to choosefi.comfi101 and again, thanks for listening.

B (66:20)

Sam.