← ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast
ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast
The Purpose Code | Jordan Grumet | 528
00:48:56
In this episode of ChooseFI, co-host Brad sits down with Jordan Grumet, author of The Purpose Code, to discuss the crucial differences between "big P" purpose and "little p" purpose. They explore how identifying small, meaningful activities can...
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- [00:00]
A
Hello and welcome to Choose a Five. Today on the show we have my good friend Jordan Grummett. He is the podcast host of the Earn and Invest podcast and he is coming out with a new book actually tomorrow. So from the day this launches, it's coming out tomorrow, January 7, 2025, called the Purpose how to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness and Leave a Lasting Legacy. And this is a truly extraordinary book and it is so important and it is so timely and I'm just excited to bring this conversation to you because I think this is what is so needed in our community. And I try really hard here at Choose a Phi to make this not just about the numbers, to make it honestly only a tiny bit about the numbers of phi, but about living a better life. And Jordan has come up with a framework and a set of action steps to help you identify your purpose, as he calls it, the little P purpose. Not this big, audacious big P, I'm going to change the world, but how do I live a better life? Through meaning and purpose. And I think this book nails it. I think you're really going to enjoy this. With that. Welcome to Choose Fi. Jordan, it is always good to see you. Thanks for being here.
- [01:16]
B
I'm so happy to be back and to be chatting with you, Brad.
- [01:19]
A
Yeah, this should be fun. So, okay, this episode is going live on January 6, 2025, and the book comes out tomorrow. So must be a sigh of relief at this point. I can't even imagine how. How long this process has been.
- [01:35]
B
It is a long process. But I'll tell you, along with that sigh of relief is excitement because now I get to put this thing out into the world. And as you know, when you put something out in the world, it's yours until the day you release it and then it becomes everyone else's.
- [01:48]
A
Yeah. And I know how important this is to you. Right. So it literally is. We're talking about the purpose code. Right. And let's just start there. So for me, the fundamental understanding in this book, for the audience now is the difference between little P purpose and big P purpose as you define it. So let's start there with a little bit of definition. I'd love for you to talk through those two major fundamental concepts.
- [02:16]
B
What I found is the reason we have so much trouble with purpose is because we think it's one thing and it's actually two. So let me tell you about the two different pieces. There's big P purpose. Now this is big, audacious purpose. And it's usually goal oriented. In the US we always say, you know, if you think it, you can build it. So it's this idea of I'm going to cure cancer or I'm going to start an eight figure business, or I'm going to become President of the United States. This is big audacious purpose. And the problem with it is it's really easy to fail. And most of the time it's all or nothing. Right? Like either you do it or you don't. And in fact, often it's winner take all. Let's think about the presidential election that just happened. Like someone's going to win and everyone else is going to lose. And because of this it feels very scarcity, mindset oriented. Let's contrast that to what I call little P. Purpose. Little P. Purpose is process oriented instead of goal oriented. So little P Purpose is doing the things that light you up regardless if you meet a pre specified goal or not. So therefore instead of being all or nothing, it's kind of all or all. And it's really almost impossible to fail. And therefore it feels very abundant. Like there are a million things we could enjoy the process of doing and if we try one and it's no fun, we just move on to the next.
- [03:30]
A
Yeah, the big P purpose is so interesting to me, right? So clearly we're prioritizing. Little P purpose is what the thesis is. But big P purpose, I feel like that gets all the headlines, right? Like as you said, it's build the eight figure business, it's win the gold medal, it's you know, fill in whatever, climb Everest or something. But you described it as, hey, this is win or lose. But I would even take it a step further and say, even if you win, it's what now?
- [03:59]
B
And here's the really difficult conversation, and this is kind of complicated, but let me see if I can make it simple. It's actually the difference between meaning and purpose. And so what I tell a lot of people is happiness is both meaning and purpose. And a lot of people are like, well, aren't those the same thing? And actually they're different. Meaning is about the past and it's how we cognitively think of our past. So this is the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And happy people tend to tell themselves heroic stories. Like I had this trauma when I was younger. I went through these hard things, but I made it through. That's why I am where I am today. Essentially you're saying I was enough. Unhappy people tell them victim stories, so they tell themselves victim stories. They kind of Say I had this trauma, I was thwarted because of this trauma. And I continue to be thwarted now. And so I'll probably be thwarted in the present and the future. And so that's the victim story. And it generally makes them unhappy. They were never enough or never had enough. So meaning is a journey to enough and it has to do with our past. Purpose is about our present and future and it's about action. So let's talk about those big, audacious goals. The problem is we're trying to use purpose to solve a meaning problem. When people are trying to make an eight figure business, or when they're like, once I'm a partner, I'll be happy. And then they become partner. And they're like, but now I need to be lead partner. And when they're lead partner, they're like, but now I need to be lead partner at the top firm in the city. When they're doubling down, what they're really saying is I, I didn't feel enough and I tried to use purpose, this big audacious purpose, to get to enough. And guess what? It didn't work. I still don't feel enough. So I'm, now I'm going to double down. I would argue that's not a purpose problem, it's a meaning problem. The stories we tell ourselves about ourselves at some point that story was, you aren't enough. And so you try to purpose your way to enough and it just doesn't work. And that's why big, audacious purpose is really sexy, right? It's like, I'm going to prove that I'm worthy, that I deserve to be here. And it just doesn't work that way.
- [05:53]
A
No, it is not. And it's so interesting how everything in our lives occurs in our little brains, right? And like, and how we frame life. I was just writing and probably by the time this has gone out, I would have already put this in my newsletter, but there was a quote that was attributed to Voltaire. Whether that's it's true or not, but on the Internet it's attributed, the most important decision you will ever make is to be in a good mood, right? And it's like, it's so interesting talking about, about meaning and stories and just the entire frame you have on life so you can think about meaning in terms of you. You always hear people talk about, oh, my parents, dot, dot, dot, and it's like, oh, my parents did this. So therefore I was resigned to this horrible life or with the exact same set of circumstances, oh my Parents. And therefore I chose to do the exact opposite. Right? I mean, like, isn't that the perfect way to describe the meaning problem?
- [06:53]
B
It is. And it changes everything about the present and future. Because remember, the meaning is about the past, purpose is about the present and future. And so how you go into purpose, whether you do it joyously, like, I'm going to do these things that light me up because I already feel enough and I don't have to prove myself versus I'm going to go into purpose with anxiety because I need to prove I'm enough. And the only way I'm going to do that is by doing this big audacious thing. It changes everything.
- [07:19]
A
So, okay, somebody who has a negative meaning outlook walking into this, are they resigned to just being screwed in essence? I mean, kind of tongue in cheek. But like, how do they reframe that? Is that the starting point? Or. Or do they skip ahead to purpose and try to then reframe meaning? How. How do we do this?
- [07:39]
B
So you're talking about the typical Steve Jobs or Elon Musk issue, right? Both of those people don't look particularly happy or didn't look particularly happy in their life, but they had accompl some of the most amazing crazy things and they had made some of the most money ever. And the reason is they both probably skipped past meaning and went right to purpose. And they kept on getting on this achievement treadmill where they kept on achieving more and more, but it wasn't necessarily making them happy. So it is true if you have a meaning problem, if you didn't find a sense of enoughness in your past, the best way to deal with that is to work on meaning, which is therapy. There's something called narrative therapy where you actually go back and look at the major narratives in your life and you reframe them and you realize instead of me being a bad person, I was a good person in a bad situation. And objectively I can look back and see the heroism in surviving this and being intact and moving forward and doing all these good things. But you've got to rewrite that story. And so a lot of people do go to therapy for that, or they do something called narrative therapy, which you can look up online. There's a series of four or five steps which you can take yourself through, but it's a matter of rewriting that past, having a new sense of meaning such that you feel enough, because that frees you to that abundance of your present and future. And purpose, all of a sudden, purpose doesn't have to Prove anything. You're just like, I can do these joyous activities and if I enjoy them, that's enough.
- [09:01]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's fascinating the intersection between kind of that, that negative valence on meaning, if you have it, and maybe especially in your examples of the big P purpose. This crazy, audacious, I'm good enough. Like these people, like Elon Musk, who I have very, very, very negative feelings about just as a human being. And, but, but there's no denying that he's achieved big P purpose. But he doesn't look especially happy like you described. Right, But I wonder. So people with a positive look at their own meaning or their story, are they more apt to be open to pursuing little P purpose?
- [09:40]
B
I think they're much more comfortable pursuing little P purpose. So I think there's still a lot of people out there who have a great sense of meaning, but still have been told by society that big P purpose is the thing. Look, if you go on TikTok or Instagram, what do you see? You see people with six pack abs, wearing the nicest clothes, traveling all over the world and running eight figure businesses. So society is still trying to sell us this version of purpose. They want us to co opt that version of purpose. And usually it's so we buy something, right? The influencers are selling us something, marketers are selling us something. And even society and our parents kind of tell us when we're growing up, you should become a doctor or lawyer. We have this idea of big audacious purpose when it comes to career. So even people who are well adapted and do have a good sense of meaning still have societal input which pushes us towards that big audacious purpose. But once they get past that and start giving themselves permission to just do things that light them up, they have a much easier time doing that because they don't have to prove anything by doing these activities except to enjoy themselves. They don't have to prove they're good enough. They don't have to hit some big goal to make it meaningful. All they have to do is show up and do the thing. And if they like it, they like it.
- [10:52]
A
Now that makes sense. So let's talk little P purpose because I think that clearly is the critical aspect of this and reminds me of Phi. It's process oriented, it's experimental, it's incremental, right? It's these 1%, hey, let's work towards something. But that something is, is this process. It's not like let's work towards winning the gold medal and it's binary. Right. It's, hey, I'm going to look at my life as an experiment. This is the way Jordan. At least how I conceptualize it. I'd love to hear how you think about little people from that 30,000 foot view. And then let's dive into the real granular stuff.
- [11:32]
B
Yeah. And I would even like to use FI as an example because I think financial independence could be a little P purpose or it could be a big P purpose. Let me give you example of how it could be both. Financial independence is a big P purpose. When you're like, I'm 10 years away, I hate my job. I'm going to put off everything in my life and grind it out and be miserable for the next 10 years. Because once I hit financial independence in 10 years, the world will be beautiful, everything will be great. And once I hit that goal, I'm there. I think that's a very big P purpose version of fi. And even if you get there, so some percentage of people just will never get there. But because they're listening to choose Fi, they're actually more likely to get there. But even when you get there, it doesn't necessarily make you happy because we don't know our why of fi. Right? Yes. You want to get to financial independence. Well, why? Well, I want to quit my job. Why? I don't like my job. Okay, you don't like your job. What are you going to do once you're done with it? I don't know. You want to leave your job because there are other things that are better use of your time, but until you start defining those things, this big, audacious purpose of just getting defi doesn't mean much. Now let's talk about how FI could be little P purpose. Let's say I develop this interest in financial independence. I start loving listening to the podcast, I start reading all the blogs. And in fact, instead of feeling more anxious, I'm starting to feel less anxious every day because I'm digging this process. I. I'm enjoying investing every day. I'm feeling like I'm making a little bit of incremental gain. I may not love my job, but you know what? I feel so good about it now. Hey, maybe I could even go down to one day less a week, because, hey, maybe that'll push my FI journey off a little bit, but it's gonna give me another free day in the week, and I can do some things I really like. It's all about agency. And I think when you look at fi, for instance, as Little P Purpose, you feel a lot of agency to control your life. Not sometime deep in the future, but. But you feel agency to change it now. And that's what I think little P Purpose does is it's something we have a lot of agency over. It's not something that falls on our head out of nowhere. We don't find or not find little P Purpose, we kind of create it in our life.
- [13:36]
A
Yeah. All about agency, man. Jordan, that. That nailed it. And I love how you went through that. And so I would further specify to say, like, big P purpose is more like the old school fire, right? Like the caricature of fire. Whether caricature or not, frankly, it might have been the case. And maybe this is a little egotistical, but I think little P Purpose for the way that FI is. That's what we've talked about here for eight years, right? We've tried to reframe that so desperately because it's not about the fire. You're not going to wake up, hit a number on a spreadsheet and be happy. It doesn't work that way. The old school fire bs, it just doesn't work as a success strategy for life. But little pieces, Fi, it sure does. Right?
- [14:22]
B
And we're talking about burnout, right? Because what happens when we go after big, audacious purpose if we're unsuccessful? We feel frustrated and we feel burnt out. But you know what? Even if we are successful, if we're not enjoying the process, it gets exhausting. And so even if fi is your goal and it's your big, audacious purpose, if you're not enjoying the trip, there, like, 95% of your time in the next 10 years could be doing things you loathe just to get to that phi number. And you and I both know you get to that Phi number and you're excited about it. If you're lucky, let's say six months, very lucky, you're lucky. And then you fall back to that baseline. You habituate back to your baseline happiness. Except now the one thing that always kept you busy, the thing society told you should be your big, audacious purpose, which was your job, you've now abandoned that and you've left a vacuum, and you have no idea what to fill it with.
- [15:14]
A
Yeah, I laughed because I thought you were going to say six days.
- [15:18]
B
No, I was being generous. Six months was being generous, I thought.
- [15:22]
A
Oh, man. And for everyone listening, let's be clear. Both Jordan and I believe from the core of our souls, that following the path to Phi is an almost unmitigated good. So we're not saying this is not to demean the path to phi or how essential this is, but it is not just about money. I think that is the clear point that we all need to get across. Money is but just a small part of this. Obviously it's the overarching concept. Clearly getting your money right is the top level of this, but it affords you the ability to focus on what actually matters. And I think that is the key for those of us pursuing financial independence as I define it. Thanks for listening to Choose a Vi and for all your support of our mission here. The absolute best way to support Choose a Buy is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards page at choose a buy.com cards. I keep this page constantly updated so it should always be the top resource for you. Thanks for being part of our community and for your support. So Jordan, let's talk about how to uncover this little P purpose because I think this is the real nuts and bolts of actionable steps, right? So purpose is not found, it's created. You can actively shape your life, right? Like all of these things you write and talk about. But what are there. There have to be some strategies for people that hey, I get this. I'm a long term thinker. I'm an incremental thinker. I have a maybe a positive look on on my meaning in life. But how do I even think about getting started on my little P purpose?
- [16:57]
B
Here's the thing. Little P purpose is abundant and you can have one or many. That purpose can last a lifetime or just a and you can switch from purpose to purpose and it can change the world, but it certainly doesn't have to. And so when you see this abundance, you realize you don't have to really find purpose as we were talking about. You build and create it. But it is true. You need to have these inklings, these beckonings of things that light you up to build that life of purpose around. I call these purpose anchors. So I think where people really struggle and what I wanted to be really clear on in this book is how do you find these purpose anchors and then how do you build a life of purpose around them? So let's talk about the purpose anchors because I think this is the most difficult concept for people to figure out. There are three or four really easy ways to start identifying purpose anchors in your life. And I would bet that most people, when they really, really think about it and give themselves permission, know what little things Light them up. They've just never really felt the courage to speak about them and talk about them. For me, for instance, writing a book was one of those huge things, and I always knew it, but I didn't have the courage to really pursue it. But. But let's think about some exercises you can do. So here are a few different ways to identify purpose anchors. One is, I'm a hospice doctor. I treat people at the end of life. In hospice, we do something called the Life Review. It's a series of questions we go through to help people understand their life and come to terms with it. But the one I want to focus on here is regret. We always ask dying people what they regret in life. Here's the thing. Regret in a dying person is disappointing. Why? Because you don't have the energy, time, or ability. You don't have that big word agency to do anything about it. But what if we take regret in someone who is young and healthy that all of a sudden we can turn into a purpose anchor? So if you ask yourself the question, if I found out I was going to die tomorrow, what would I regret never having the energy, courage, or time to do? Let's take that, turn it around, turn it into a purpose anchor, and start to build a life of purpose around it. So I think that's number one. And so for me, that was book writing. Like, at some point in my life, I realized my dad died at 40, I could die any day, and I would really regret not traditionally publishing a book. So for me, turning that regret around was a great purpose anchor. That's one way. Another way is the joys of childhood. Like, when you're a kid, before society tells you who you're supposed to be, you get involved in these purposeful things. You do them all day. You lose track of time. You don't worry about the end point of the goal. You just want to play cops and robbers or mess around with your baseball cards or build something. That's what kids do, build a fortune. And they get lost in it all day. So I always tell people, if you're looking for purpose anchors, think about your childhood room. What were the posters? What were the medals? What were the drawings? And if you start thinking about those things, those can be purpose anchors. For me, it was baseball cards. I loved baseball cards. And I'm so busy now, I don't have time to pursue that purpose anchor because I have so many other. But every time I'm looking on Facebook or I'm reading the newspaper and I see something about baseball Cards like my brain explodes. And so I could always start building a life of purpose around that. And I could do a million things. I could start a blog, I could start a podcast, I could start going to conferences about baseball cards. I could learn how to grade them. I can tell you a million different purposeful activities I could do around it. But you start with the purpose anchor. So joys of childhood regret. Those are two great ways. Another awesome way is what I talked about in my first book, the Art of Subtraction. So let's say you're at work and you really don't like work, right? Let's say you work at a restaurant and you spend all day at the counter serving people, and it's exhausting to you think about, is there anything in work that you do like, even if it's just a little bit. And so think back and you might be like, you know, I don't like serving people. But you know what I really do enjoy? I love every Thursday morning when I go back and I organize all the stock and I put everything in its place and I do the inventory and it's all organized. And that really lights me up. Well, boom, there's a purpose anchor. So the art of subtraction. Getting rid of everything you don't like at work, seeing if there's anything left that you do enjoy, that can be a purpose anchor. Maybe you want to become a Marie Kondo expert and help people on the weekends organize their closets, but you wouldn't have known that until you figured out a purpose anchor. And using the art of subtraction at work is a great way. So those are three good ways to find purpose anchors. The last one, which is the easiest, was the spaghetti method. If nothing else works, throw a bunch of spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks. Try things you don't normally try. Hang out with people you don't normally hang out with. Say yes to things that scare you a little bit. And if it ends up being a good day, that might be a good purpose anchor to start building purpose around. And so those are four really easy, low stakes way that cost no money for you to start thinking about what could feel like a purpose anchor in your life. But that's the easy part. The hard part is then you have to go out and take action and build a life of purpose around it. Which means you're going to have to do something. You're going to have to get out of your comfort zone. You're going to have to change something if you want a different outcome. You're going to have to take different actions now. And that's the part that people struggle with. Not just the purpose anchors, but actually getting out there and taking action.
- [21:55]
A
Yeah, I mean, that is. That is always the key, right? It's easy to say, right? What's the joke? Like, if information was all we needed, we'd all be billionaires with six pack abs, right?
- [22:05]
B
Yep, totally.
- [22:06]
A
And that's why we focus so heavily on taking action here at choose of I. It's about getting up off the couch and doing something.
- [22:13]
B
And let me say, we love to talk about fi and it's really easy to focus on numbers because you guys have laid it all out for us so we know exactly what to do. The problem up to this point with purpose is no one laid it out so clear that we know what to do. And that was the whole idea behind writing this book is purpose feels so ephemeral and so far away. What if we could make it as straightforward as how do you calculate your FI number and how do you start investing and how do you start saving? All these things that we have answers for. I think up until this point we haven't had clear answers for purpose and that's why it's always been anxiety provoking for people.
- [22:49]
A
Yeah, it is anxiety provoking. Let's be clear. Right. And I think because it's so nebulous, that's what it feels like to people, which is why a prescription or a set of, you know, items you just listed off is wonderful. Even as you were going through that, I was thinking, okay, what's really lit me up over the last couple of years? And as strange as this sound, there's one thing that sticks out and it was actually coaching my daughter's volleyball team. Yeah, Jordan, I loved that. Like, there has been nothing in my entire life that has lit me up like that probably in the last 10 years. And it was like this silly YMCA volleyball league where I wasn't even really the coach. I just kind of like, I wound up showed up helping and then not commandeered the team because that sounds like a negative, but I, I did such a good job that I wound up being the coach and I just loved it. It was so great. And like to the point where I actually said to my daughter, because she didn't want to keep playing after the second season, I'm like, I want to keep coaching. Like, how can I keep coaching? You know, it's kind of weird for a 40 something guy to just be like, hey, I'd love to be A coach, but I have no daughter.
- [23:58]
B
And you know what's really exciting about this? And I think this takes us to the next level here. When you do this thing and you love it, you show up in a way that's more authentic and lit up and the people around you notice it and they want to collaborate with you, they want to connect with you. Other parents maybe are like, hey, maybe I can help you out. The kids might have been like, hey, Coach, did you ever think about this? So let me give you an example from my experience, but it's very similar to coaching. I had two different teachers in high school and one taught Spanish and the other history. I'm a science guy. I was going into medicine. I have no interest in Spanish. I have no interest in history. But these guys taught from such a passion and excitement and they had such a verb for it. The kids who went through that class saw someone doing something that lit them up. But the downstream effects of it was all of those kids were given permission to get passionate. Like, I became a doctor. But I'll never forget what I learned about teaching from these people. Thirty, 40 years later, these two teachers have still had a huge impact on my life. And I am a different, more organized, better teacher just because of them. And that is impact and legacy. And so everyone says little P purpose sounds great, but big P purpose is how I'm going to change the world. I would argue one of the ways you are going to change the world is you're going to coach these kids and you're going to connect with some of them or you'll connect with their parents, or you'll connect with someone because you're doing something that deeply lights you up and it will change their lives and they will go on to live a better life because of it. And I would say that Choose Fi is exactly that too. Brad, you didn't go into doing Choose Fi the podcast because you wanted this big, audacious thing. You didn't want to get a million downloads. You didn't want to make millions of dollars. You did it because it lit you up. But think about the thousands and thousands of thousands of people have now learned about financial independence because of you and how different their lives could be. That's little P purpose. That's not big, audacious purpose. That's not, I'm going to be a billionaire. I'm going to change the world. But you have single handedly added to your impact and legacy just by doing things that lit you up.
- [26:03]
A
Yeah, that's a cool frame on that and what's interesting in there. And obviously we're using me as just but an example here. But like in my mind, I would have thought just because of the significant impact of Choose a Phi that it would be big P purpose, but it's actually not, which is so wonderful.
- [26:20]
B
Here's the thing, and people get this wrong all the time. I am not against goals. I just think you can't define your happiness or the success of what you're doing based on those goals. If your purpose is solely to get to that goal and you're not enjoying what you're doing in the process, then you've lost your way. On the other hand, you can start a podcast and be like, I want to help millions of people and I want millions of downloads, but as long as you're enjoying what you're doing, it doesn't matter whether you get there or not. You can still have that goal and it can be a wonderful thing to strive for as long as if you don't get there, you don't feel lost because you don't ultimately always have agency over whether you get to those million downloads or not. But you have a lot of agency over what your moment to moment activities look and feel like.
- [27:04]
A
Right? Yeah, it's. It's process. Right? Like that's over and over again.
- [27:08]
B
It's process.
- [27:09]
A
Yeah, it's just process. Yeah, that is, that's just such a critical aspect of living a good life is thinking about process, process, process. Because that you have agency over. Right? We're using that word constantly. You can define what the process is, what your inputs are. You have some say over the outputs, but some at, at best. And if you define yourself and the success or failure of whatever it is that you're undertaking by the outcome, that's a recipe for a very unhappy life, in my opinion.
- [27:38]
B
Yeah, but look around you at the people who love the process, and you're going to see people who are just very quietly changing the world. And we all, we all know them. We all know them. I bet you can look back to your life, to mentors, to people who just loved what they did and had such a positive impact on you. And who you've become today has something to do with them. I call that generational growth. It's the exact opposite of generational trauma. We always talk about generational trauma when it comes to money, things that people or our families hand down to us that give us these bad coping mechanisms. But we never talk about generational growth, which is these really positive versions of purpose. That people hand down to us, that then changes us and gives us permission to pursue our own sense of purpose and affect other people.
- [28:20]
A
And like you said with. With the teacher in a completely different area of life than you would ultimately focus on, that teacher is one you remember, and that's absolutely critical. So I wanted to talk about another purpose anchor. So art of subtraction, when you were talking through that, it reminded me in a weird way of what we talk about in the FI community, the FU money concept. Not in the, hey, I'm. I'm burning it all down and running away, but in the, okay, maybe there's some aspect of my job that I really love that really lights me up, and I'd love to keep doing that. I think most people. Most people think everything in life is binary, that they have so little way to negotiate. And I think that is just such a fundamental misunderstanding of the world. Like, and you never want to get into some Machiavellian, like, power struggle. I'm not. Clearly not arguing that, but power dynamics in life are very important, and I think we have highlighted that in the FI community often. Right. In terms of our jobs, you are the VP of your department or your boss is quite unfamiliar with someone coming in from a position of strength. They're used to people groveling because those people's lives are going to fall apart within 90 days if they don't have that job. So where is the power dynamic? It's squarely on the side of the company. But when you are approaching FI at fi, if you're on the path to fi, everything changes. And Jordan, that. That reminds me of. Of this artist of Chucks. And I. I'd love for you to talk more about that.
- [29:48]
B
Yeah. And I'd even broaden this discussion a little bit to say, so money is a tool. And so when we're on our path to Phi and we get to that FU money level, we have enough of that tool to start practicing the art of subtraction. But I really want to remind people that money is just one tool. And so to give you, like, a really broad framework, this is going to take a moment, but I want to give you this full picture of what this looks like. Let's talk about winning the game. Winning the game looks like this. You're born one day, and then you die another day. And the amount of time in between there. I always like to say it's set. We know it isn't set. Right. You can exercise and wear your seatbelt. You can do some things to make it longer. But you've got the set amount of time, and time passes, no matter what. You can't buy it, you can't sell it, you can't commoditize it, you can't trade it. It just passes. All you can control is what activities you're involved with as time passes. I like to think of these time slots. Months, days, years. And so winning the game is filling up as many of these time slots with purposeful, joyful, intentional activities and getting rid of as many things that you loathe as you can. And that's it. From whenever we're old enough to start making decisions to the day we die, we should be looking at our calendar every week and trying to increase the number of time slots filled by things we love, little p purpose and get rid of things we loathe. So it's not binary. And this is why it's not binary. Because we have both tools and levers that are going to help us change the calculus of our schedule to get better and better over time. So let me talk about tools and then levers. Money is the number one tool everyone thinks about, but it's only one tool. We also have our relationships. We have our skills. We have our passions. We have our energy. We have our youth. So let's think about this. I have money. When I realized that I didn't want to be a doctor anymore, I was already financially independent. So everyone's going to say you are privileged. You use money to use the art of subtraction to stop doing things you didn't want to do. But if you're 22 years old and working a job you hate and you have to work that job to put money on the table, you've got other tools that I don't have. At 22, you have your youth. You have your energy. You might not be married yet, you might not have kids or a mortgage, and so you might not like that job, but you've got all sorts of possibilities of other things you can do. Let's talk about some of the other tools you could do. Let's say you live in the same neighborhood as your parents. Well, that's a tool. It's your family. Maybe you could stop renting an apartment, go live with your parents for free, and maybe use that as a reason to work four days out of a week instead of five that tools your relationships. Or you have your energy and free time. You know, at 22, it's no big deal on a Sunday to spend four hours doing a side hustle. And if you can find one that's really purposeful and passionate, then hopefully, not only are you adding in some purposeful activity to your day, but you also might create some money that creates margin. So those are your tools. Let's talk about your levers. So even if you don't have a lot of money, you have the art of subtraction, you have the joy of addition, and you have substitution. So that person who's 22 who adds in four purposeful hours on the weekend because they have the tool of energy, even if that doesn't make them any money, they'll still, if you look at their calendar, they just added in four more purposeful hours. So they've already won. If they happen to make some money and can subtract a little from work, they've actually decreased things they loathe and increase things they love. As a 22 year old with almost no money. Boom. You're already winning the art of subtraction. That conversation we had about, what if I work in a restaurant and I like stocking but I hate doing everything else? What if you went to your boss and said, hey, we have 10 restaurants and I love doing the stocking. Why don't I stock every restaurant each day of the week? I'll go to a different restaurant and why don't we have Millie go ahead and work at the front because she likes serving people and I don't. Boom. You just use the art of subtraction to majorly improve the calculus of your schedule by filling up that schedule with things you love. What else could you do? Maybe it's your boss you hate, so you go work for a different company doing the same thing. Maybe you stay at the same company, but do a different job at that company. That's substitution. So what I'm saying is we have these tools and we have these levers and we can turn this from a privileged or binary decision. I either have money or I don't have money to abundance. I have all these tools, I have all these levers. It is my job in life to improve that calendar calculus as I go on. And that is my challenge. Especially the young people listening to this right now who are like, I'm just not there, or once I get to enough money, or once I get to fu money, I'll be able to do this. I challenge you to look at what you already have and start making those changes. In the meantime, we should all be really smart with our money. We should all pursue financial independence because that money also is a great tool. And if we're smart about it, we can use that tool along with the other ones to not wait till we're 45 or 50 or till we retire to start living the life we want to live.
- [34:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, that is a heck of a call to action, Jordan. Right. And I think we all need to be. It's like a memento mori. Right. Remember, remember death. And obviously you know this in your profession better than anybody is it is coming for us all. We don't know when, obviously, but we, we have a general timeline and you and I, so we're talking about 22 year olds there, but you and I are certainly rounding 50% closer.
- [35:06]
B
Darn it, we're closer.
- [35:09]
A
And I mean, thinking about adding those purposeful hours, I mean, that sounds pretty damn good to me.
- [35:15]
B
When people find out that I'm a hospice doctor, they always ask me, how do I have a good death? And I always say, well, you tend to die like you live. So if you want a good death, you're going to have to have a good life. And if you want a good life, you're going to have to start addressing these big things in your life now and not waiting. And that's why there is that call to action. Right. That's why we need to have memento mori. That's why we have to carry this vision with us. Because we want to take action. Remember, purpose is about present and future and it's all about action. We want to actually take action.
- [35:50]
A
Yeah. And thinking about it in terms of this, it's not all or nothing, right? That, that is for me the biggest takeaway because I think so many people get caught up always in it has to be perfect. It has to be perfect. It can't be something little. Right. But it can. It can just be. Okay, you have 168 hours in a week. Right. You have roughly, what, 112 waking hours in a week. What if you just made 1, 2, 3 of them more purposeful or just better in some way?
- [36:19]
B
Yeah, totally.
- [36:20]
A
That sounds pretty darn good to me, Jordan. And that, that seems eminently doable to just work on one or two hours a week.
- [36:27]
B
And I've used intentionally this term, little P purpose. And it can be deceiving because when I talk about little P, I'm contrasting it to big P, which is this big audacious purpose. But I want to be clear on the point that little P doesn't mean little impact. It doesn't mean little happiness. It only is little in the sense that it's not society's version of, quote unquote, killing it. But just because we call it little P doesn't mean that it's not super impactful and has a really huge, you know, effect on your life.
- [37:01]
A
Yeah, and it kind of goes back to, like, the small things are the big things in life, right? Like you're not going to look back on the deal that you closed when you were 37 and that that's like the highlight of your life. I mean, if that's the highlight of your life, it's a pretty sad life, frankly, right? Like, you're going to look back on the relationships you've built. You're going to look back on the amazing experiences you've had with people and traveling or the impact you had on your community. You're not going to look back even if you have the massive big P purpose, I almost guarantee you're not going to look back as that being the highlight. It's just, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of the human condition as far as I'm concerned.
- [37:39]
B
And I also want to be clear about this, and I say this in the book, which surprises people. It's not even about purpose. Now, I did say that studies show that purpose in life leads to more health, happiness and longevity. But I think, especially when it comes to happiness, little P Purpose is just a conduit. It's actually a conduit to interpersonal relationships and connections, which goes back to you coaching the team. It's the people. I think little P purpose is just a great way to light yourself up so that you attract other people to you, so that you collaborate, so that you form those deeper relationships. And we all know this because a lot of people are like, oh, I need more relationships in my life. I need more friendships. And so they go and they get themselves involved in a bunch of things that don't light them up just to meet people. And it's really hard. I say do it the opposite way. Do things that light you up, and whether you try to or not, it's going to connect you to other people. I call them communities of internal purpose. They're identity communities. Right? Like where I live, what state and what city, that's a community of identity. I'm in the District 65 school district, because where my kids grew up, that's a community of identity. But a community of internal purpose is a community in which you're deeply excited or involved in some idea, and therefore you end up part of that community because you have the strong interest or belief system. And so, for instance, for me and you FI is a community of internal purpose. Podcasting is a community of internal purpose. For you. Coaching and the team is a community of internal purpose. It's something you've chosen because of your passions and interests.
- [39:15]
A
Yeah, I'm curious. So if I was sitting in the audience, I'd be like, okay, I get this. I understand the intersection of passion and purpose here. But what about just, like, something as simple as, hey, I love soccer, I love playing soccer is literally joining a team. Like, I'm thinking, okay, it checks off. Like, obviously, it's passion. It's great exercise. It keeps me healthy. It's community building. I'm meeting new people. Like, how does something as simple as that fit into the framework?
- [39:43]
B
So you've just defined a great purpose anchor soccer. So soccer is a purpose anchor. But then we have to take that purpose anchor and take action and build what I call climbs, which are these purposeful activities around it. And so that's what you do. You say, I love soccer. That is an inkling, a beckoning. So let's build a life of purpose around that. That could look like a million things. And this is where the abundance comes out. You can become part of a team. You can really bond with those people. Maybe that leads to happy hour Friday nights. Maybe that leads to stronger connections. Maybe you meet your spouse there. Maybe it just means the lifelong friendships that you connect with because you have this love of the same thing. But it's not just joining a soccer team. Maybe you start a podcast, Maybe you start a blog. Maybe you start a fan club for your favorite player. Maybe you decide, I love this so much, I'm going to go volunteer at the stadium. And you start doing that, and they offer you a job, and it becomes a weekend gig, and before you know it, you're moving up in the system, and you don't even need your regular job because you're doing this thing you love, and you're so good at it, because you're so into it that people keep on tapping you for bigger and bigger jobs. That's the thing about it. When you do something you deeply love and enjoy, it will connect you to other people. And whether you want to or not, most likely you will become part of a community of people who have similar interests. But not only that, but they are seeing you as your best self. And that is, like, the most attracting.
- [41:04]
A
Thing possible, seeing you as your best self. So that jumps off the page, mate, because I'm thinking about the FI community, right? The reason. And no, obviously, I'm a podcaster So I have this as a little p. Purpose. But even putting that aside, the reason why I show up at five events, like I just went to the Five Freedom Retreat in Bali, is because of the people.
- [41:27]
B
Yeah.
- [41:27]
A
And you never know what kind of relationships you're going to build or friendships that can last a lifetime, and you never know where, because those people have similar areas of life that light them up. A lot of people are into travel or experiences or whatever it may be like. It's not just the five part. It's the, oh, where am I going to meet a travel partner or a group of friends? I know there's a bunch of people like Becky Heptig and Mark Chautauman and that whole crew who. They call themselves the Slackers now. And they. They are lifelong friends. They travel the world together, and they met at a FI event. And that's what's so cool about it, as far as I'm concerned. I think it's amazing.
- [42:05]
B
It's a virtuous circle. I mean, look at my story. I burned out of medicine. I discovered financial independence, started writing and blogging, ended up going to a campfire. I became close friends with people like J.L. collins. I eventually met Grant Sabatier. Grant Sabatier became my friend. He's like, dude, you really need to write a book. And I've always wanted to write a book, but I never had the courage. But now I had a friend who had an agent, and I knew you and Jonathan and you had an agent. And all of a sudden I had this support and this community that was lifting me up, that was getting me to do things that were deeply important to me that I was afraid to do. It started with little p. Purpose, but as that virtuous circle turns, it actually leads to more connections and more purpose, which leads to more happiness. And so when I look at my life today, compared to, let's say, six to eight years ago, the number of friends I have, the number of communities I'm a part of, and the number of things I've accomplished far outweighs what happened as a doctor. When I was grinding it out and hitting the books and going for all those super achievements because it didn't light me up in the end. And this stuff does. And I would even argue my impact. When I was a doctor, I could see maybe a thousand patients, and so I was affecting maybe a thousand lives. Some of them, they wouldn't come that often. They just come for a physical I wasn't doing much for. But here's the thing. Now that I'm a podcaster, a blogger and an author. 20, 30, 40,000 people may buy my book. All these thousands of people might listen to my podcasts, and some of those people are going to hear my words and it's going to help them or spark something in them, and they're going to go out and change the world. So, in a sense, my impact, my legacy, has become exponential. Not because I set out to do that, it's because I did things that deeply lit me up and it ended up attracting to me people who thought and acted like me. You and I became friends. I became friends with all these other people. I ended up collaborating with them, and that's where this all comes from. It was never the point, but thank God I did it because I actually feel like the things I'm doing now are more impactful than ever.
- [44:16]
A
Yeah, isn't that amazing? And to me, right, as you're describing it, it's finding that passion and following it, where it takes you. And I think that's the key. Right? So as you were describing, like, that soccer example, and obviously this is just off the top of your head, but I suspect it could be like, 2% off putting to some people in the sense that, like, oh, you mean I have to start a blog, I have to start a podcast, I have to join the local club? Like, no, of course. Like, if that's your takeaway, you totally miss the point, right? Like, that is but one possible. You talk about all, like, the sliding doors, options of where your life could take you, right? Like, I'm thinking, hey, I'm a massive soccer fan. I love Arsenal Football Club from London. Like, there is a supporters club here that meets every single match and watches the games together. And, like, just me showing up there and who knows who I'm going to meet and who knows when I can fly to London with them and go see a couple matches at the stadium. Like, I'm not forecasting that. But you never know where life is going to take you. And I think following your passion enables that.
- [45:16]
B
And I want to, you know, say a word for the naysayers, right, the poo pooers who are listening to this. If you are in a place in life where you want change, you're looking for purpose or looking for a why. And yet you're hearing all this and you're saying, but I don't want to start a blog, I don't want to start a podcast. Here's what I'd say to you. If you want a different outcome, you're going to have to do something different. If you keep doing the same things, you're going to get the same outcome. Here's what happens when you do something different. You step out of your comfort zone. What happens when you step out of your comfort zone? You feel uncomfortable by definition, by nature. So if all of this sounds anxiety provoking and scary, it's actually a call to action because you're looking at your life and saying, I want something different. Now. If you're looking at your life and you're saying, everything's great, it's hunky dory, and what I've been doing in the past is working, then don't listen to this. But if you're saying, I'm feeling this purpose vacuum and I don't know what to do with myself, this is a call to action to maybe be a little uncomfortable, to step out of your comfort zone and try doing something different to get a different outcome.
- [46:20]
A
Yeah, a lot of good things happen. As my friend Dominic Cortuccio, who's been on the podcast so many times that we said, it's like you have that little bit of like, throw up in your mouth. It's kind of an odd visual, but it's like when you're living on that edge is what he called it. And sometimes finding that edge. A lot of us live safe lives.
- [46:40]
B
Yeah.
- [46:40]
A
And I know I've done that for many, many decades now. It's just. It's all right. My life is pretty darn good. It's a nice, safe, easy life that I've curated and it works wonderfully. And I've succeeded in all these good things. But how many times, you know, again with that kind of weird visual, like, how many times am I have that little, that nervousness, that fear where there's that little bit of like, this could go either way, you know, and that's. That's kind of a cool concept in terms of, wow, you really do have to lean out over that edge to find this. And it's not going to be easy all the time. It really isn't.
- [47:12]
B
Yeah. And it's a mindset shift. And I really got this when I started thinking about public speaking is, you know, when you go to public speak and even those of us who do it a lot, and I do it a decent amount, you get that anxiety, the butterflies, the nervousness right before you step on stage, you're like, am I going to totally screw this up? Well, here's the mindset shift. That's excitement, not nervousness and anxiety that's like I'm about to step on the stage and tell these people something that's life changing and it's so exciting to me. I can't contain myself. And if I didn't feel this right now, I'd probably do a horrible job because whatever I'm gonna go talk about on stage probably isn't that exciting. And when you do that mindset shift, when you realize, okay, that little bit of panic, anxiety, heart racing means that you're in the game, you're in the arena, and you're fighting the valiant fight. But you gotta have the courage to fight that fight. You got to. And I think that's where we live the most. Not whether you succeed or fail. Failure is fine. What you regret at the end of your life is not whether you failed or succeeded, it's whether you had the courage to try. And that's what this is all about. Little P. Purpose. Action. The courage to try, the courage to get in the arena, step out of your comfort zone and put yourself out to the universe and succeed or fail. But do it with intention. Let it light you up.
- [48:32]
A
Jordan, There is no better way to end the podcast than right there. That is a beautiful way to summarize. The book is incredible. Obviously anybody listening here knows this is really critical stuff as we talk about ad nauseam here at choose of I. The numbers are but the smallest part of this journey. It's finding what lights you up. Jordan has done an immense service to all of us, to humanity, for creating a book like this. And like we said, it comes out January 7, 2025 the purpose code how to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness, and Leave a Lasting Legacy Jordan, my friend, I'm so happy for you. I'm so excited for this to be out in the world. And thanks for coming on.
- [49:14]
B
Thank you so much for this great conversation.
- [49:17]
C
Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the choose of I community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player. Just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choosefi.com subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there and I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox so that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a vi local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a vi.com local and you'll find a list of all of Those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with FI or you have a family member or friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways choose a Fi episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the Fi community and even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life? And then choose if I created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free. Just head to choosefi.comfi101 and again, thanks for listening.