← ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast
ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast
Unraveling Your Relationship with Money | Shannah Game | Ep 552
00:52:02
Brad chats with certified financial planner Shannah Game, who shares insights from her book Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. They discuss the emotional and psychological aspects of finance, emphasizing the importance of understanding...
Loading summary
Transcript68 lines
- [00:00]
Brad
Hello and welcome to choose a Five. Today on the show we have Shauna Game. She's a CFP and the host of the everyone's talking money podcast. She's the author of the new book unraveling your relationship with money. Ditch your money trauma so you can live an abundant life. I think you're really going to get a lot out of this episode. I know I did. I thoroughly enjoyed reading Shauna's book and it dives into a lot of what we talk about here at Choose a Pie. A lot of the stories, a lot of the scripts that have followed us in many cases for decades and, and really how to investigate them, how to think about them, how to unravel them, how to move forward and take action and make your life better. This episode has a little bit of everything. I think you're really going to enjoy it. And with that, welcome to Choose Fi, Shauna. Welcome to Choose a Phi. I'm so happy to have you here.
- [00:52]
Shauna Game
Thanks for having me, Brad. The honor is all mine.
- [00:55]
Brad
Oh, well, I appreciate that. And yeah, the book is phenomenal. I really enjoyed reading it and I just love, I love the concept because Relationship with money, right? Unraveling your relationship with money. It's so critical because I think a lot of people think about personal finance as numbers and logic. And if you've been in the personal finance game for as long as we both have, we know that it's probably 5 or 10% numbers and logic and 90% psychology and emotion. So I think it's just a wonderful premise and starting point for a really important book. So I'd love to hear what made you write this book.
- [01:36]
Shauna Game
It's such an interesting question because I've been in the, you know, quote unquote money expert game, if you will, for 20 plus years, which is really, you know, I can't believe that. But, you know, I did not want to write a traditional money book. They. There are so many great, amazing books out there. But I know from the time when I was working with real life humans, right, and responsibility of helping them with their money and their decisions, that I was just like you just said, about 97% therapist and about 3% let's plug in the numbers and see how this thing works. And so, you know, I started to realize that regardless of if someone had millions of dollars or, or somebody was just starting out, right, there were the same sort of central hang ups with people. And it was all emotional and stories and trauma and beliefs and identity and power and like all of these things that trip Us up around money. And so for me, as an expert, I was like, okay, I can't just write a book about how to create a budget because I know that is such a fraction of the, you know, the journey, if you will, to success, just like you're. You're doing on your show and helping people, you know, reach financial independence, that this is such an important piece. And so I began playing with this idea of being like a money storyteller. And people looked at me like I was crazy. Like, what is she doing? She's a certified financial planner, a trauma of money expert, and now she's saying she's a storyteller. And so I had to get over the, the piece of feeling like I needed to be able to prove that, that I could do really complex money things. Right. I can talk to you about trust and estate planning and retirement planning. And I had to convince myself that there is value in the way that I talk about money in the book and that it's also something that is very much needed and that it might take a while for people to get like, okay, this book belongs on your shelf as well as some of the other classic money books. And so I waited until I found a publisher that was willing to go along with, with that journey.
- [03:52]
Brad
Yeah, I love that. And I'm curious because you've seen it in so many clients and so many people you've worked with, like you said, over 20 years. And like you, I bristle at a financial expert that's. It's hard to internalize by any means. But, you know, it's certainly in your case, it's certainly true. But what is, what is your money story? I think it's easy to look at, quote, unquote, experts. Right. People might look at us as people they look up to in terms of, oh, they've got it figured out. It must have been easy. And I know I, I can laugh for hours thinking about that in my own life. I'm curious about your money story.
- [04:26]
Shauna Game
It's interesting because on paper, I grew up in a family where you would probably think she had absolutely zero worries about money. I grew up in a very middle, upper class family. We had nice houses. I never had to worry about money. That just wasn't part of the story. But as you know, I got this expertise and started to explore this for other people and then explore it for myself. I had a lot of like, aha moments. I share in this book the story of me never looking at my ATM receipt for like 10 years. And people are like, that's crazy. You're a money expert. How can you not look at your money? But for me, it was so triggering and. And I started to realize that that was tied back to my childhood. My dad was always in the financial industry, and the talk was always about being number one, being perfect, having the most amount of money. And when money was flowing, he was so exuberant and happy. And when he lost a client or, you know, something didn't work out, he was miserable to be around. And so I started to really internalize that as a kid, like, oh, you can't enjoy money. And, oh, there's this struggle in this push and pull. And, you know, we would go on these family vacations and we would have a good time, but as we were like, flying home, you know, back in the old days, right, when they used to, like, print out all of the invoice of, like, everything that was spent, my dad would be saying, like, okay, who spent $12 on a grilled cheese? And who got the $25, you know, suntan lotion? And so what I picked up was like, this has to be hard. Money has to be hard. We can't enjoy it. And. And that carried through to my adulthood. And I developed immense anxiety around money, right, that, you know, when it would come in, it was great, but when I had to pay something, it was just like, you were ripping out, like, parts of my body. And, you know, when I married my husband, we would go to dinner, and immediately as we would leave the restaurant, I would say something like, it was good, but I can't believe it cost, you know, $60. And he would look at me like, why are you devaluing the experience you just had? And I was like, because that's what I learned. Like, you can't enjoy this. So, I mean, I've just had a very, you know, messed up relationship with money. And so what's important to me in sharing that story is that I think sometimes when we think about relationship with money and money trauma and all of these things, we can think that this only applies to people maybe who've grown up in poverty or. Or have seen, you know, some of the extreme experiences around money. But really this is something that I think all of us experience. And once we start bringing some awareness to that story, it's like, oh, okay, well, now I get why. When I look at my, you know, bank account balance on my phone, I freak out every time. Like, I have to do this great sort of self talk. It's just this learned story.
- [07:28]
Brad
Yeah, I hear you and it is amazing how there was no formal lesson from your dad about that. It was just something you picked up in the background. Right. And it's interesting how I think our families, in a lot of aspects of our lives, really just a pervasive atmosphere, it just. It impacts us as kids and we keep it going. And like you're saying, like, even now as a successful adult, you walk out of that restaurant and it sounds like more than just that one time. I suspect that's pretty darn often. And it was as if you couldn't enjoy it, or maybe you didn't deserve to enjoy it, or maybe it was. There was some guilt or shame because it cost $60. And, oh, maybe in the back of my mind, I could have cooked something comparable for the two of us for $10 at home. So am I really worth that?
- [08:16]
Shauna Game
Yeah, it's layered, you know, And I think what excites me about this kind of work and this perspective that I'm leaning into is that it's just so deep, right. It really is like peeling back the onion layers to get to what is the foundation, because that is what all the rest of it. And it really. It stretches farther than just money. Right. This is about who you are in life, who you show up as with, what you do, what career you have, who you're with, you know, what you do for your spare time. Like, it's really, for me, so nuanced and, like, such a part of your identity. But I would. I would love to hear your story. Like, are there any crazy, like, beliefs or things that have carried through for you?
- [09:02]
Brad
Yeah, it's so interesting because, yeah, when you mentioned the restaurants, I still have a hang up about restaurants also. So when I open the menu, I essentially automatically throw out 30% of the most expensive items on the menu because, oh, I could never do that. I could never order the steak. I could Never order the $29 piece of fish that I really want. So I just. It's subconscious. It's automatic, Shauna. It's unbelievable.
- [09:31]
Shauna Game
To the point, can you trace that back? Like, can you figure out where that might have come from?
- [09:37]
Brad
It's a really good question because my family, we used to go out to dinner a lot as kids, so I suspect it came from there. But then I'm also comparing that with, like, we used to get appetizers. I can remember still, like, ordering an appetizer. And I know, like, Ramit Sethi is always talking about appetizers and how that was one of his hangups, which is really interesting. So that it didn't come from there. But yeah, I mean, maybe I just thought, like, it's just too much, like, I'm not worth it. Like, I shouldn't be getting that. It's already expensive to go out to dinner. Maybe. Maybe that was the talk around the table of, you know, money wasn't. I wouldn't say it was exactly tight. It sounds like I grew up in a similar situation to you and that, like, my parents did fine, they really did. But it wasn't a household where personal finance was talked about and it wasn't a particularly savvy personal finance house. So we're probably always behind where we theoretically should have been. Like, had they listened to either of our podcasts, had they existed 40 plus years ago. So, yeah, maybe it was just in the background of, oh, there's always talk about money, there's always talk about this. And I don't know, just on some level, like, who am I? Is the thought, like, when you ask me that question, it's like, who am I to order the most expensive thing on the menu? Who am I? Yeah.
- [10:53]
Shauna Game
And we wouldn't normally think like that money is tied to that question. We don't normally put those things together because we're so used to talking about just the mass side of money and leaving out this whole emotional component. I mean, I think, you know, what you talk about on your show, this idea of reaching financial independence, there's such an emotional component to that because it's something that we feel like, you know, it's outside of the narrative. Right. The traditional narrative box of how we do life. And so, you know, I think of any community, your community would be one to understand this. But it's really connecting that in a strong way to money and then looking at it and going, okay, so we both have this hang up about restaurants. Right. That probably shows up in other areas as well, of how we interact with money. And what are those? And are they creating like blockages or blockades for us getting to where we want to get to. And usually the answer is yes. And then really just bringing, I think, a sense of curiosity to it rather than like judgment or shame, which we tend to do with money.
- [12:08]
Brad
Yeah, yeah. That is so critical. Right. It's so easy to beat yourself up. It's so easy to go into that shame spiral, even if it's something that has been a part of you for decades and you really ultimately had nothing to do with it. It was just part of the ambient ether, if you will. But we still go there And I want to ask you, because as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about, like, how do we bring awareness to this story? Because I see it, and you alluded to this, that these kind of things really writ large. It's not just money, it's a lot of these scripts, these automatic scripts. And I see it in my own life. I see it in a close friend of mine, we joke her family. And I saw it when I saw her parents not all that long ago. It's. Anytime you give them a compliment, it's always like, even about making dinner or something, it's like, oh, it was pretty good, or oh, it wasn't, it wasn't that hard. And I see that and it's like, okay, well, that's an interesting thing because now you see a through line generationally, right?
- [13:09]
Shauna Game
Yeah.
- [13:09]
Brad
And I see these through lines generationally. So I think for me, one aspect of self improvement, and I've been on like a 10 year self improvement journey, it's just trying to be aware because so much of our, our thoughts, our actions are just, it's on autopilot. So that's what jumps to me. Shauna. But I'm curious. Obviously, you literally wrote the book on this. Talk me through, like, okay, people are hearing this. They've listened to us for 10 minutes now. Like, what's step one?
- [13:37]
Shauna Game
There's so many ways to approach this idea of bringing awareness. I think it depends also on what type of person you are. I talk about in the book like a million different exercises to try and things to do, but a couple of easy starting points. One is going to sound like the easiest thing ever, but there are layers to it. Is asking yourself just this very simple question, how do I feel about money? And whatever your first answer is, you got to dig deeper. So if it's, well, I'm always stressed out. Okay, why is that? Where does that come from? Well, I never feel like I have enough. Okay, well, why is that? Where does that come from? Right. And digging deeper and deeper until you get to something that is like, substantive of like, okay, now this kind of makes sense, right? Of why I might feel this way. And then thinking about it from this perspective, is it true? Is it not true? Does it belong to me? Does it not belong to me? Am I borrowing a belief from childhood or from my spouse or a partner or a friend that maybe doesn't need to belong to me? Right. It's okay to actually let go of that. So I think thinking about it from that perspective. But also this is Another thing we don't talk about in terms of money is your body's gonna give you a lot of clues. So your body is going to tell you or give you a little, like, zap, you know, when you're having a moment where you need to pause and go, hmm, what's going on here? Right. From that curious perspective. So if you're somebody like me, every time you look at your bank app, regardless of how much money is in there, right. If your heart starts to race. And for me, I still do one of these. If you're listening, you can't see me, but, like, I am half covering my eyes. Why I do that, I don't know, right. But I still do that. And so my body is telling me something in that, right. It's giving me a clue of, okay, this is a stressful situation. Why is this? Well, I know from my work that my brain obsesses over numbers. It's what makes me really good helping other people really bad with it myself. Right? So just notice, like, if you're around certain people, right? And maybe your shoulders start to get tight or you start to feel like, clenching in your body or in your jaw. Those are clues, like, okay, what is this? What is going on here? And can you bring a little bit of that, of the curiosity to that place rather than the shame, blame, guilt, I'm bad with money equation that we so often go to.
- [16:15]
Brad
Yeah, that's really important. And it's funny because again, I keep thinking about this in terms of both money and life, right? Because you talked about being 97% therapists, basically. And I think, again, this is really important just for every aspect. Like, I have a meditation app called Insight Timer that I really love. And yeah, one of the courses that I'm working through is actually talking about this very specifically is like, just be aware of when you get those feelings, whatever they are for you. In my case, it's the anxiety kind of queasy feeling. Like, where does it show up? Like, what does that feel like to you? Right? Because I think you might know in your case, we're talking about money anxiety. Like, you might know you get anxious with money. But, like, where does that actually manifest itself in your body? What does it feel like? Can you describe it to yourself? To me, it's just about awareness. Like, how can you be aware? Because sometimes, like, all of this just. It just happens. And I think that's. That's the frustrating part is like, just being pseudo aware sometimes but not being able to fully investigate it. So, yeah, I Love where you're going with this.
- [17:22]
Shauna Game
You know, what you're talking about is so important because it sounds so simple, right? What we're saying is, like, just be aware, but when you actually start to practice that and, like, create pauses between. You know, when you buy something, let's say you have the impulse, right? You want the dopamine hit, and you pause for a minute to, like, examine that. These are all. You're breaking patterns of how we do money. Right and left, right? So just even the act of going, huh, I'm feeling weird. Where is that coming from? You're telling your brain and your body, like, oh, wait, we don't have to do this the same sort of automatic way that we've always done. And you know this from, like, the principle of mindfulness, right? Which is this idea of just being present. And in being present, you can think more clearly about your decisions. Well, the same thing around money, because most of us make money decisions from this place of fear about money or shame. And so your brain can't even, like, logically make a good decision. It's why we have so much credit card debt. I'm guilty of this myself, right? We go. We buy something because we want to feel good or somebody pissed us off during the day. And buying something is like that little piece of revenge. So we do this emotionally, but if we can just stop, you know, take a breath and go, okay, wait a minute. Is this what I really want to do? Or is this not what I really want to do? And we're not aiming for perfection. This is not a 100% game here. Like, 70, 30, 60, 40, right? Half the time you pause and go, okay, yeah, I actually don't need this thing. Half the time you go, no, I actually really want to buy this thing right now. Right? So to me, that's also resetting this narrative around money that we're supposed to always make the right decision around money. We're supposed to do, quote, unquote, what the textbooks tell us to do, or those experts that are like, you've got your 10 steps of things. I'm like, no, throw it out. It doesn't apply. But I think leaning into the emotions, understanding your triggers and creating these moments of, like, you know, where you're almost like, out of body experience, and you're kind of investigating it from. As if you were, you know, not yourself. Like, huh, that's interesting. Why is she doing that? Well, she's doing that because this, this and that. Oh, is that what she really wants to do? I don't know, it brings a lightness, it brings a playfulness. And I think it helps you look at this whole thing about money and life from just a different perspective.
- [20:01]
Brad
Yeah. And I think, to kind of paraphrase the famous Viktor Frankl quote, putting space between stimulus and response. Right. It's just if you can create that little bit of space, because again, most of it is just reflexive. Most of what we do is just reflexive. If you can put that tiny, tiny little bit of space. Okay. And like you said, maybe many of the times you still purchase it, but you're at least purchasing it from a position of this is what I actually want to do. I'm not just doing this because I went to Amazon and one click later it was purchased. I actually thought about it and I think this hearkens back to one of our earliest, earliest episodes, literally eight and a half years ago with Liz from Frugal woods. And she talked about. Yeah, So I know Liz is wonderful. I think it was a 72 hour rule and now my memory is failing me. It might have been a 48 hour rule, but I think it was 72. And it's like, okay, maybe put it in your cart, but give yourself two to three days to really think about it. And almost invariably a significant percentage of those would have been purchases. Just never happen because you don't really need it, you don't even really want it. It's just you were doing it because, hey, like you said, maybe you were pissed off that day or maybe something bad happened or maybe you just wanted that little bit of hit of whatever neurochemical cocktail that you really wanted and it just kind of happens that way.
- [21:18]
Shauna Game
Yeah, I talk about it. I, I use a 24 hour rule that I talk about in my book.
- [21:22]
Brad
And I had 48 and 72. Sean, I love 24 too.
- [21:26]
Shauna Game
That's great, right?
- [21:28]
Brad
I love it.
- [21:28]
Shauna Game
Know thyself.
- [21:29]
Brad
96. 96. Let's do 96.
- [21:31]
Shauna Game
But what I like about it is that you still get the dopamine hit, right? So I tell people, like, put everything in the cart, like if you're online shopping, put it all in there, like the five extra pairs of black jeans that you don't need or whatever the heck, put it all in there and get that dopamine hit. And then, yeah, the step away for 24, 48, whatever your magical number is. And when you come back, your brain's going to be able to approach it from a different perspective, right? From a more logical perspective, because you've already given yourself that dopamine hit. So there isn't that need of, like, oh, I need to do this again. And then you're right. You usually end up, like, getting rid of, like, 95% of everything in your cart or realizing, like, what was I thinking when I, you know, was gonna purchase that? Right. I tell people, like, if you still love going shopping in a store, which I haven't done in years and years, but you could apply the same principle just by putting everything that you see in the cart and then just walk three laps around the store with it, like, in the cart, Right. And as you're doing it, just look at the stuff, like, okay, is this the stuff I really want? Do I really need this? And slowly but surely, you usually end up starting to, like, pull some pieces out of the cart. And if you don't, it's okay, too, right?
- [22:46]
Brad
Yeah.
- [22:47]
Shauna Game
I mean, it's just all choice.
- [22:49]
Brad
Right. And you did it from a place of intention then, which is, to me, that's everything. That's the whole game is can we apply intentionality to our lives? And this actually goes back to something I wanted to ask you about from earlier in the episode was the ATM receipts. Right? So I think so many of us, because we do have fear and shame around our money, we just stick our heads in the sand, and that is the path of least resistance. And to me, what I tell everybody with your very first step on the path to financial independence is you just have to come clean. You just have to be honest with yourself. You just have to lay it out on the table, and you have to just say, look, I've made mistakes. We all have. We all have. And it's okay. Like, there is nothing you can do to go back and change a decision that has already happened. You quite literally cannot relitigate the past. Right. Like, it doesn't work that way. I know, right. As much as we ruminate and wish and hope about it, but it just doesn't work that way. So you can either continue sticking your head in the sand for the rest of your life and get essentially nowhere, or you can just say, all right, look, it is what it is today, but I'm going to make small decisions today and every tomorrow to make my life better. And I'm curious your thoughts and maybe reflections on that and the ATM receipts and just this whole, like, kind of noxious mix of. Of where you were and how you got to where you are.
- [24:16]
Shauna Game
I think that as humans, we want to swing completely the opposite direction. So I feel like the human brain says, like, okay, problem. I'm not looking at my ATM proceeds. The. The solution of that is I'm just going to look at every receipt, right? And we do that with money all of the time. You know, I'm not happy where the stock market is. I'm just going to pull all my money out. You know, we just swing right and left and right and left versus, like, permission to go a tiny step in the direction. So for me, what I did was like, okay, I obviously recognize this is an issue. This is a big trigger for me. So I started to give myself boundaries and parameters that I could live with. So the first time I looked at the receipt, it was like, I'm going to count down from three, and I'm going to look for three seconds, and that's it. Okay, Right. And so I did a 1, 2, 3 look, went, okay, not that bad. Obviously, in three seconds, you can't see everything, and I'm done, right? And the next time I thought, okay, I'm going to do three seconds. Let's see if I can add a fourth second onto that, right? And so literally, I was just walking out, like little baby steps of time parameters that felt okay for me. Like, I wasn't going to have a panic attack. And then it got to the point where I was like, okay, I can look at it. And then once I got kind of accustomed to that, you know, I was like, okay, well, do I have to look every time, or is it enough if rather than looking at the ATM receipt, I go and actually look at my bank app and the balance, Right? And so it started to become more familiar and a different version of the story. And so there was less and less kind of shock and awe that happened in those moments. And that started to calm my nervous system around this. Like, okay, it doesn't have to be so triggering, right? And for me, I just have to do a lot of work around. It's just numbers. They're just numbers. They're just numbers. They come, they go, they come, they go, they come, they go, right? That was my process. So I tell people, like, the beauty of this is you get to make the rules. We think we don't get to make the rules, but we do. So you can decide how frequently you're looking at your money, how closely you're looking at your investments. If the news is saying, oh, the stock market just tanked, you get to decide whether you go and buy into that or not, right? Whether you look or how long you look, or you can set all of these boundaries and framework around it that's going to work for you and you alone so you can keep yourself out of that place of being so incredibly triggered. Right. Because I don't know about you, Brad, but for me, if I do something in my day around money that I know triggers me, it stays with me, like, all day long.
- [27:14]
Brad
Okay. Okay. Yeah.
- [27:15]
Shauna Game
Like, I'm thinking about it all day long, and I'm like, man, why did I do that? You know, I was. I was on a podcast interview yesterday, and the lady, she was saying that she has a rocket money app and it sends these alerts, like, any time, you know, there's a change in her account or, like, a big expense. And so she gets these alerts, like midday, and she just emotionally shuts down. It's hard for her to do work the rest of the day, you know? And I was like, hey, you can actually turn off those alerts. And she was like, what? Yes, you have full permission to turn off those alerts. And so I think, you know, it's like taking back some of that ownership for ourselves is such an important piece of this.
- [28:00]
Brad
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's probably another one that maybe a larger point of, oh, please shut off most of the notifications on your phone. They do nothing good. I mean, that is one thing, Shauna. I've done, like, overzealously. Maybe that might be the better way to put it. Yeah, yeah. Maybe a little too much. But, yeah, I've shut off virtually every notification and, like, I just don't get as worried about my phone anymore. I'm not thinking about the pings and the dings and, oh, as soon as I hear it, I have to run to my phone. And sure, I have some weaknesses when it comes to WhatsApp and things like that, but. But, man, I'm so much better than I used to be, which is great. Thanks for listening to Choose a Phy and for all your support of our mission here. The absolute best way to support choose a 5 is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards page at choose a5.com cards. I keep this page constantly updated, so it should always be the top resource for you. Thanks for being part of our community and for your support. It's interesting as you're talking about, like, okay, find these things that trigger you. I think, to me, how I think about, like, the larger point again, is like, okay, our brains really almost go out of their way to sabotage us in so many aspects of life and especially with money. And it's like anything you can possibly do. I would say there's no blanket advice in life. There really isn't, and it's very dangerous. That's why it's tough to talk on a podcast like ours, because you give advice that you think is even good for 94% of people, and you'll invariably get the, oh, but that's not my life kind of email. Right. But I think as close to blanket advice as I can give is try to get your brain out of your money. Try to get everything on autopilot, Try not to think about it. Try to have the savings and the transfers set up automatically so it just happens in the background. The beautiful thing about personal finance in 2025 is you can do all that. Everything can happen automatically. And I think this speaks to also, like the investor policy statement, which is something I know you and I have certainly talked about. It's all right, look, there are going to be periods of emotion. We just went through it, frankly, with this whole tariff thing and whatever other nonsense was going on. And to a lot of us, it seemed absolutely insane and that the world was crumbling and. Or potentially we saw it in Covid. And you never want to make decisions, financial decisions, from a place of emotion. It just is very, very, very dangerous. Which is why, and I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's easy even if you have an investor policy statement, but having it on paper and maybe making that your first stop when you get overwhelmed emotionally. I think, to me, that's. That's the strategy that I look for. So it's autopilot. And just try. How can I get my silly little reptilian brain out of this 1,000%?
- [30:53]
Shauna Game
I mean, put everything on autopilot. Like, that is one of the best strategies. And even I think, you know, I'm not a big fan of budgets. I like to call them spending plans, because for me, it's like a roadmap. I've had so many people I've worked with who are neurodivergent. And what's interesting is that there's so much shame for them around spending, which happens to be one of sort of the. The emotional triggers for a lot of neurodivergent people. And I was working with one lady, and I was like, hey, look, we could set up a savings account that money goes into every month, and we literally call it your manic spending account. And she's like, we can do that. I'm like, of course you can do that. Right?
- [31:37]
Brad
Do whatever you want.
- [31:38]
Shauna Game
And so what's beautiful about putting everything on autopilot is you can set up all of these different accounts and money flowing, all of these places where you know it's going where you need it to, but also you've got these buckets that give you the permission slip to spend without guilt. Right? So for this lady, this manic spending account, her rule was she can tap into that whenever she wants and spend it however she wants, because that was the bucket for that. So I think, you know, maybe going like a step beyond the investor statement is I created something called my Money Manifesto. I actually have it hung on my wall. And for me, this is like my. It's almost like my, you know, Apple or Nike sort of mission statement about how I'm going to allow myself to interact with money, the role money is going to have in my life and the relationship I'm going to have with money. And so what I love about that is you can create something like this for all of the aspects of money, not just investing. Right. And you get to create the rules, which I think is what most people feel like they're missing is that permission to be able to do this in their lives.
- [32:52]
Brad
Yeah. And I think we'd both be here to say permission granted, right? Like just, I mean, I know it sounds silly and maybe trite, but seriously, permission granted, right? Like, you do make the rules. And this is another critical aspect of personal finance and psychology is that you don't have to be optimized. You really don't. Truly, I promise you. And so many people try to make this about math. They really do. I mean, and I love our community and I think the financial independence community has hopefully with some, some of the themes we've talked about here for eight and a half years has really calmed a bit in terms of it not just being about optimizing the money and people understanding. It's about the journey, it's about living a great life. But there are still the vestiges of like, okay, it has to be perfectly optimized. And that just doesn't. Even though I'm a cpa, you're a cfp, like that doesn't ring true for me. It just doesn't. Because it's not the human experience. It's not. It's not how we live. Right. Like, to me, it's what can help me sleep well at night. Now, obviously I don't want to get the massive things wrong in a perfect world, Right. But like things at the margins, especially when you've been on the path to fi and you have a decent to significant net worth. Little things like here's my example that I always use, Shawna. I leave probably an extra 5 to maybe sometimes $10,000 extra in my checking account. It just sits there essentially inert. It doesn't do anything, it doesn't earn me anything. But you know what? That's the best five to ten thousand dollars I have in my entire net worth. Because I never ever have to think about, do I have enough money in my checking account to cover X. I just never do. Never. Even if my credit card bill was astronomical that month. There is no world where the difference between the normal bill and the new bill is going to be five to $10,000. It's just not, it's not conceivable. And that's, it's beautiful. I mean, I have to say that legitimately is the best money I have because it has removed so much stress from my life that it's almost indescribable.
- [34:53]
Shauna Game
I love that.
- [34:53]
Brad
Right? Like, isn't that amazing? Like you would get the money. Zealots who say, oh, but that could be earning 8% in the market and over whatever years.
- [35:01]
Shauna Game
But oh come on man, what's the expense cost, right, of you having peace of mind knowing that you're never going to get an alert saying that, you know, your bank account is withdrawn or you only have X amount of dollars left. For me, that emotional cost that you're talking about is so much more valuable than if you put that in a high yield savings account and earned 4% or something like that, you know? I love that story.
- [35:31]
Brad
Nice.
- [35:31]
Shauna Game
Yeah, that's so great. There's a story I share in my book, which I'll give just a little bit more detail on. I was working with a couple in Hollywood, California and they lived in like a rent controlled apartment and they made very good money. Like between the both of them, made about a quarter million dollars plus bonuses, things like that. And they wanted to buy a house. Like they had been struggling for years. Like, why can we not buy a house? They saw their friends buying houses. They're like, what's wrong with us? And so when I walked in, I was like, hey, do you have any monthly numbers? And they handed me this crumpled up piece of paper and they're like here? And I'm like, okay, well how often do you update this? And they're like, why would we update it? And I'm like, okay, cool. So, so, you know, do what I do, which is go back and look at you Know, their bank statements. And I saw something very interesting. So they both grew up in, you know, some level of poverty where both of their families didn't go out to eat very often. So one of their core values is going out to eat and taking their friends out to eat, too. So they'll go out to eat, like, numerous times a week. Right. And so on this crumpled piece of paper, they put that they were spending, like, 300, $400 eating out each month. Reality, they were spending, like, 3 to $4,000 every month eating out. And when I presented this to them, they're like, how is that possible? And I'm like, you just created the most amazing story example of how our brains operate on money. Right. You convinced yourself, even though you're swiping your card every single time you go out, right. You're seeing the numbers, but you're disconnecting from the reality of what is happening. And I'm like, you change this one thing or set a boundary on this, you're going to be able to buy a house super quick. And they were like, that's amazing. So, you know, in, like, nine months, they had enough money for a down payment to buy a house. Right. But this is how powerful our brains are around this stuff. So when you're saying this example of leaving 5, $10,000 in the bank account, the emotional comfort that you get from that is so great. And like, for this couple, kind of on the adverse side of that, they were convincing themselves of something because eating out was so incredibly important to them, but they were sacrificing another goal that was incredibly important to them. And so it's really interesting to show that, like we're saying throughout this whole episode, we can't just look at the number component of there's a story. But behind the numbers, for each of us, that is an important piece that nobody else can invalidate. I mean, you're like, this is what I'm doing with my five or ten thousand dollars. I don't care what anybody else says or how much money it can earn or interest or any of that. Right?
- [38:17]
Brad
No.
- [38:17]
Shauna Game
And that's the story that's very real to you. So I think we need to bring this storytelling experience back into money so that we can take money out of the role of it being our whole identity. Just what you're saying, like, this separation, I think, is really key.
- [38:36]
Brad
Yeah, I hear you. And Right. There's not a person alive who could dissuade me from keeping that extra money in there. There's no amount of Logic, there's literally nothing that is an absolute no brainer. So in the example of this couple that you met, so obviously you were working with them and this was a blind spot for theirs. But not everybody, of course, certainly listening to the show is going to be able to work with you or work with even a professional. I'm curious, how do people find those things? Because I don't know that this couple would have ever found that.
- [39:06]
Shauna Game
Never would have.
- [39:07]
Brad
Right? Like, how would you advise someone who's reading your book, listening to your podcast? Like, how did they find those things?
- [39:15]
Shauna Game
I need you to borrow some of what we're both talking about here, which is taking yourself out of the numbers so that you can look at the numbers from a perspective of being able seeing patterns. So what I did for this couple, I did not need to be a money expert to do this, right? I literally took a bank statement, two bank statements. I literally got out a bunch of highlighters, different colors, started highlighting everything, put it in categories, put it on a sheet of paper, added up categories and saw what kind of trends were emerging. Right? Anybody listening? You can do this. So I want you to, if you've never done this, I don't care how much money you make, this is like one of the most valuable intentional practices. But take yourself out of your home, go somewhere fun, have a cocktail, go to the beach, go to a park, right? Make an experience around looking at money so that it doesn't have that same weight of you sitting in front of your desk or your computer or, you know, all of the sort of money ghosts, right, that are, that are lingering around. And look at it from this sense of curiosity, like, what do I notice? What patterns? Like, do I notice that every Friday I go out and spend, you know, a ton of money on X, Y, Z? What is that about? Oh, maybe I'm so tired from the week of working. Oh, is that something I want to change? Yes, no, right? So you're asking yourself all these yes, no questions, like, am I okay with this? Am I not? And this is like, it's so simple, but we overlook it. And we think we need to pay somebody a fair amount of money to come in and do this practice for us, and you don't. I mean, I mean, I'm going to put like a bunch of CFPs out of work here. You don't need to hire them to do this. Right? And now we have all these Fancy software or ChatGPT that can literally like categorize it for you if we want to be super lazy But I encourage you to interact with the numbers because it's an important piece of the process. And then you have just a decision point, like, am I okay with this? Am I not? Do you want to change anything? Are there these goals on the side that I really want where I could take some of this money and just, I don't have to earn anything extra. I could just reroute it over in this new direction. Like, wow, you've put yourself in the driver's seat of money because you've allowed yourself to take the emotion out of it. You've taken yourself someplace to have an experience around money that is different than what you're used to. And you're saying, okay, with what I've got right now, let me see if I can reorg it so that it goes in a way I want it to go. And anybody can do this.
- [42:00]
Brad
Yeah.
- [42:01]
Shauna Game
You do not mean to be a math expert at all to do this.
- [42:05]
Brad
No. Right. You just, I mean, literally can put it on a piece of paper if you wanted. It would be simpler. I always think it's easier to put it in Google sheets or Microsoft Excel or something. But it doesn't have to be. Could just be on a notebook, post.
- [42:15]
Shauna Game
It, notes, whatever, like, meet it wherever you're comfortable with.
- [42:19]
Brad
Just do it. Just do it. And this goes back to what I was saying before about sticking our heads in the sand. And I love you've actually added something that I'm going to liberally borrow. But reference you is for me, it was always okay. The first step on the path to FI is get everything down on paper. Right. What do I own my assets, what do I owe my liabilities. And then I have a sense of what my net worth is, how much money's coming in every month and what's going out every month. So an income statement. Right. For us accountants. But I think your thought about patterns, that's the part that's going to be an ever present here at Choose a Vibe. Because it's easy to just look at a snapshot in time and okay, you know, I have it on paper, but what do I do with that? Right. But okay, maybe applying some scrutiny and like you said, hey, maybe every Friday, oh, look, there's this big expense maybe at the local brewery or shopping or whatever it is. Oh, I deserve this after a long week of work. And okay, maybe you do deserve it and maybe you've done that from a place of intentionality. But I suspect we both would think a lot of that is happening unconsciously. Right?
- [43:24]
Shauna Game
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the patterns are so important because that's the story, right? The patterns, they're the data behind the story of what's happening. Yeah, we all got to pay rent, mortgage, car payment, you know, those sort of expenses. Like, we're not as concerned with those. Those are just things that, you know, we can't literally change in the moment. But we're just. We're looking at this extra stuff and the patterns of that.
- [43:50]
Brad
Agreed. And I think what you said about rerouting the money, that's another cool framework mentally, because in the case of that couple that you referenced, Right, like, okay, yeah, they didn't think they were spending three to $4,000 on restaurants, but nevertheless, it sounded like that was something that was actually important to them. Right. Based on their upbringing. So, okay, was that the worst spending in the world for them? Probably not, but it wasn't optimal, and it wasn't done, again, from a place of intentionality. But they were able to reroute that money to a bigger priority, a true priority, which was, in their case, owning this house. So, again, while it wasn't a perfect world, what they were doing with restaurants, and I don't think anybody would argue that it was. It doesn't sound like it was the worst way that they could have possibly spent money. But nevertheless, they took that and with you helping them through this, and said, okay, look, we have this main priority. What can we do in this case? Can we reroute some of that money? Because not only over those nine months were they able to save for a down payment, but all of a sudden, they have an extra three to four thousand dollars a month to pay that mortgage, too. That's. That's not insignificant.
- [44:54]
Shauna Game
It's big. And, you know, what I love about it is, for me, I'm just there presenting the evidence. So I think if you take this approach by yourself and you're looking at the patterns, build that into the process, right? Like, you're just presenting yourself with this evidence of what's going on, and then you're deciding what you want is that they could have said, you know, no, eating out is so important to us. We're okay with it. Which would have been fine. That would have been a decision they made. But, you know, they were stuck in this loop of thinking that one of them had to get a better job or they had to make more money, or they had to get a side hustle, or they had to work a second job, or, you know, they were stuck in this mental loop of like, well, I've Got to do more. I'm already exhausted. There's no way we can make this work. And other people must have this like magic solution of how they're buying houses that we just don't know this logic. And, and when I said to them, like, there isn't a magical solution. Right. The solution's like right here, if you want to take it. There was a freedom for them in that. And I've seen this in so many different people, because it wasn't. They weren't relying on an external something around money. Right. Getting a raise or coming into inheritance. They were able to do that internally without the pressure of having to earn more money. And I think that's a powerful piece of this idea of relationship with money. Because ultimately what it goes back to is this idea of you trusting yourself around money. Right. And starting to change that narrative that a lot of people say of, well, I'm just bad with money. No, you made a decision, whatever. But trusting yourself I think is so important because that's going to help you layer on the pieces and the direction of where you really want to go with money.
- [46:40]
Brad
Yeah. And that I always hate when I hear that I'm just bad with dot, dot, dot, anything. Like that's anybody who's paid attention to this like the fix versus growth mindset. Right. Like that is the epitome of fixed mindset. And you hear it so often like, oh, I'm just bad at math or I'm just bad in this case with money, or I'm just bad at whatever. And it's like, oh, come on. Like humans, if we learned anything, like we can learn just about anything. I mean, that's one of the beauties of being human. And there are very, very fleetingly few fixed innate things that we just cannot change. So I just like, that's another thing. I kind of bristle when I hear that. It's. That's a real tough one. And, and it's funny because you actually hit on two of them in, in one, in one two minute talk there, which was about like the secrets, right? Or like, oh, are there secrets of personal finance? And oh goodness, there's so few. Like, one of my operating principles in life, Shauna, is simplicity. And I have yet. I mean, I obviously, like, I'm in this circles where, like, you know, I know a fair amount of wealthy people, I know a fair amount of really successful people, and I have yet to see some like, secret behind the curtain of anything in life. In fact, it's the opposite. It's. I see Simplicity at its essence being the secret to success. So, yeah, it's funny because a lot of people do think that, like, oh, what's the secret in this case? Okay, in their particular case, they were just spending too darn much money, right. And conversely, the other secret might be. And this is the way for most people, like, oh, how are they affording that? And sadly, most of the time, it's they're spending up to their eyeballs. And then some, the other people, right? And it's like you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. And most people don't make enough money to justify the lifestyle that they are exhibiting, let's say. So I think often that's the secret. But, yeah, in this case with this couple, hey, we're just allocating our spending in a way that really doesn't suit us.
- [48:34]
Shauna Game
And I think we do a really darn good job as a society and, you know, the powers that be around money of making it feel like that it is really complicated and that there are secrets and that, you know, if you don't have a degree in this stuff, there's no way you're ever going to be able to like, retire or, or have any version of life that is meaningful. And that really pisses me off because going back to your word, there is so much simplicity and it's almost too obvious that we don't reach to try and grab for it. And I know that's why you do what you do. It's why I do what I do. And what's that saying? Just keep it simple. Stupid. Right? If we can just borrow that. Don't like to say the word stupid, but you know what I mean, if we could just borrow that and give ourselves permission. I think that I just, I really have this like, probably naive belief, but this belief that we could just ripple this out and change the way people interact with money all around the world.
- [49:40]
Brad
Yeah, I totally agree. I do not think it's naive at all. I think this is really important. And I think you shining a light on this by writing this book, by going on podcasts to talk about it, by having your podcast for so many years, I think it's just. It's really critical. And I think a lot of us, we just need to internalize that. Okay, look, we do have some scripts from childhood. We do have some trauma with money. All of us do. Almost all of us, I can say, and that's okay. You can make change to make your life better. And I just think. I think it's so so, so important. Like, if there's one thing that sticks out to me from doing 700 episodes of this podcast, it's that you can impact change on your life. You can make your life better. You just have to do it one step at a time. And as you've described today, it's just apply that little bit of scrutiny. It's really, look at these stories. And I don't know, to me, it's like my takeaway is, are they serving me anymore? And if not, like, what can I do to make my life better? And yeah, I just think that's a really heartwarming and compelling way to move forward, is I just want to make my life better just one little step at a time. And I think reading your book and listening to you and following you, I think that'll really help people.
- [50:53]
Shauna Game
Yeah, Brad, I mean, I so agree. I, like, I think you've just hit the nail on the head with it. What a perfect way to, like, summarize what we've just been talking about.
- [51:01]
Brad
Well, again, it's a really wonderful book. I really thoroughly enjoyed reading it and I've just enjoyed this conversation. I think it was fun. And, yeah, I'd love to have you back on the show. I'd love to come on your show sometime. So, yeah, I really enjoy this and I think it's important. So, okay. We talked about the book, obviously. I've mentioned you had a podcast, but let everybody know very specifically and overtly how they can find you, where they can follow you and keep in touch.
- [51:26]
Shauna Game
You can pick up a copy of my book, unraveling your relationship with money. Literally everywhere books are sold. You can head to my website, everyonestalkingmoney.com I've got some great freebies over there on Instagram. I'm Shawnagame, and I'm starting to do a really cool Street Edition series, which is where I ask people money questions that might feel a little nerve wracking.
- [51:49]
Brad
Okay.
- [51:49]
Shauna Game
But it's gonna be amazing, I promise you. And my podcast is everyone's talking money. So I would just love to interact with you at any of those points of entry.
- [51:59]
Brad
Sounds wonderful. All right, everyone. I'm certain you enjoyed this episode. I don't even have to ask if you did. This was a really good one. And it's really, really critical that we all just look at our lives and just say, like, okay, is this serving me even? Can I find the level of awareness for the different things that are happening often without us even knowing? So I know you're going to leave this episode taking action. And as always, thanks for being here. Thanks for being part of the community.
- [52:23]
Unknown
Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the Choose a 5 community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player. Just hit subscribe and and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choosefi.com subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the the newsletter list right there and I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox.
- [52:59]
Brad
So that's the way that I keep.
- [53:01]
Unknown
A pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a vi local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a vi.com local and you'll find a list of all of Those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with VI or you have a family member or friend who you think would be interested in two easy ways, choose a Fi episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the Fi community and even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life and then choose if I created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free. Just head to choosefi.comfi101 and again, thanks for listening.