Billy Marshall (Director of the BOP)

Summary

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Chrisley Confessions 2.0 – Episode Summary

Podcast: Chrisley Confessions 2.0
Episode: Billy Marshall (Director of the BOP)
Date: September 24, 2025
Host: Todd Chrisley (with mentions of Julie and Savannah)
Guest: Billy Marshall, Director, Bureau of Prisons (BOP)

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and wide-ranging conversation, Todd Chrisley sits down for the first time, in-person, with Billy Marshall, the newly appointed Director of the Bureau of Prisons. The episode explores themes of redemption, hope, prison reform, and the human impact of the US corrections system. Both men share unique perspectives—Todd as a formerly incarcerated individual and Billy as a law enforcement veteran now leading the BOP. Together, they delve into systemic issues, the challenges of leadership, the power of fair policy, and the urgent need for lasting, policy-driven rehabilitation and reform in America's prisons.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Full-Circle Moments & Shared Journeys

• Todd’s Release and Advocacy: Todd begins by reflecting on his dramatic transition from incarceration to advocacy and now to interviewing the head of the BOP.
  • "I'm experiencing a Joseph moment in my life." – Todd (01:19)
• Billy’s Trajectory: Billy recounts his parallel career shift when he became commissioner in West Virginia two days after Todd’s self-surrender, emphasizing a sense of divine timing and shared mission.
  • "You think about, think about the parallels ... I don't think it's by chance..." – Billy (01:51)

2. The Real Purpose of Incarceration

• Not About Punishment Alone: Both emphasize that the punishment is the loss of freedom itself, not additional suffering.
  • "We are not in the punishment business ... the punishment is the fact that you're there." – Billy (04:45)
• Humanizing Inmates: Importance placed on seeing incarcerated people not as statistics but as humans worthy of redemption and respect.
  • "It's about people. There's a real person behind that number." – Billy (19:59)
  • "You are worthy. This one mistake does not define the rest of your life." – Todd (21:54)

3. First Step Act (FSA) & Policy Consistency

• FSA Implementation Issues: Strong criticism of the inconsistent application of the First Step Act, especially under the previous administration.
  • "The FSA must be implemented correctly." – Todd (06:30)
  • "You've inherited this problem ... FSA has not been administered correctly..." – Todd (16:21)
• Policy Over Politics: Both urge that foundational policies like FSA survive political swings and aren’t subject to every new administration’s whims.
  • "It has to be policy driven ... it survives President Trump's term." – Todd (15:28)
  • "Just because it wasn't their idea." – Billy (16:04)

4. Funding, Resources & Facilities

• Chronic Underfunding: Repeated observations on historically limited resources for prisons despite their critical societal role.
  • "We spend over $20 million a day housing federal inmates ... always underfunded, understaffed." – Billy (18:06)
• Prioritizing Where to Invest: Discussion about closing outdated or unsafe facilities, e.g., Pensacola, and redirecting funds to where they are most effective.
  • "We received $2 billion from the big beautiful bill for infrastructure. I don't want to waste ... that money." – Billy (44:23)

5. Mass Punishment & Administrative Practices

• Mass Lockdowns Criticized: Todd confronts the practice of punishing large groups for individual infractions; Billy agrees this mindset must change.
  • "There is no room in the BOP for having mass punishment." – Todd (32:20)
  • "I don't see it as a solution to the problem." – Billy (32:25)
• Importance of Hope Inside: Removing hope through actions like cancelling visitation is described as psychologically destructive and counterproductive.
  • "When you strip hope out of someone's life, what do they have?" – Todd (28:33)

6. Leadership & Accountability

• Wardens as Culture Setters: Intense scrutiny of how wardens shape institutional culture, sometimes negatively, and the lack of accountability until now.
  • "It starts at the top ... we've talked about, you've got to take the head off the snake." – Todd (36:19)
  • "They have to be an extension of the director's office ... the same mindset, the same vision..." – Billy (40:51)
• New Warden Interview Process: Billy introduces a third-party review and interview system to select wardens for the first time, prioritizing character as well as competence.
  • "No interview process ... now we’ve contracted with a firm ... give me character over talent." – Billy (41:40)

7. Conditions and Rehabilitation

• Nutrition & Medical Care: The episode highlights subpar food and healthcare, with Todd recounting dire experiences. Billy pledges improvement, noting that proper nutrition and healthcare are components of rehabilitation, not luxuries.
  • "If you're not willing to eat that food ... don't serve it." – Billy (47:24)
  • "There was no medical care ... It was horrible." – Todd (52:24)
• Staffing & Pay: Acknowledges uncompetitive salaries for medical and counseling professionals, tying it to recruitment challenges and citing the need for systemic pay reform.
  • "We have hired master's level people and offered them salaries that were less than what it cost them to get their masters." – Billy (55:45)

8. Solitary Confinement, Programming, and Preparation for Release

• Overuse of Solitary (SHU): Inspector general reports and Todd's advocacy highlight excessive reliance on solitary. Billy concedes reforms are needed.
  • "I do think it is an area that's probably overused." – Billy (57:32)
• Education & Vocation: Discussion of expanding educational/vocational programs, including media, arts, and trades, plus practical support like obtaining IDs pre-release.
  • "We’re going to be able to offer IDs and try to help them with birth certificates and Social Security cards..." – Billy (61:05)
  • "I'm a big proponent for education." – Billy (59:14)

9. Vision for Change & Final Reflections

• Billy’s Commitment: He repeatedly expresses readiness to tackle tough reforms, driven by a pragmatic and mission-focused approach.
  • "I'm built for this ... we're going to get a lot of things done here." – Billy (35:46)
  • "We're just scratching the surface right now." – Billy (63:45)
• Todd’s Support: Despite prior criticisms, Todd offers genuine support for Billy’s tenure, emphasizing the positive changes already visible.
  • "It's a brighter day in this country with you at the head of it..." – Todd (62:27)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Redemption:
  "You are worthy. This one mistake does not define the rest of your life."
  – Todd (21:54)

• On Punishment and Responsibility:
  "We are not in the punishment business ... the punishment is the fact that you're there."
  – Billy (04:45)

• On Policy Fluctuations:
  "It has to be policy driven ... it survives President Trump's term."
  – Todd (15:28)

• On Mass Punishment:
  "There is no room in the BOP for having mass punishment."
  – Todd (32:20)

• On Nutrition:
  "If you're not willing to eat that food ... don't serve it."
  – Billy (47:24)

• On Hope:
  "When you strip hope out of someone's life, what do they have?"
  – Todd (28:33)

• On Accountability:
  "I can like you and still fire you, you know? ... You get one opportunity for that."
  – Billy (33:41)

• On Medical Professional Salaries:
  "Taco Bell's managers make more than your psychologists do."
  – Todd (55:31)

• On Leadership:
  "Give me character over talent ... I can make them into anything that we need them to be."
  – Billy (41:40)

• On His Approach:
  "I'm going to be using the same philosophies. It's the pragmatic approach, the common sense type approach."
  – Billy (08:31)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–09:57 – Introductions, personal journeys, philosophy on punishment vs. rehabilitation
• 14:46 – Todd: "You've had less time with the Bureau of Prisons than I have..." – Introducing issues within the BOP
• 15:28–19:33 – FSA policy, bipartisan roots, and implementation struggles
• 28:33–32:18 – Hope, mass punishment, emotional/psychological effects in prison
• 32:20–36:48 – Warden accountability, leadership failures, and plans for hiring reform
• 40:44–43:02 – New process for appointing and vetting wardens
• 47:13–51:25 – Nutrition, cleanliness, improvements to food service, new initiatives (e.g., tablets for education/contact)
• 51:51–56:28 – Medical care crisis, staff salaries, systemic improvement strategies
• 57:17–59:23 – Use and overuse of solitary confinement (SHU), inspector general findings
• 59:13–62:13 – Vocational, arts, practical release support, preparing inmates for life post-release
• 62:27–end – Closing reflections, optimism for reform, mutual respect between host and guest

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, honest dialogue between two people uniquely positioned to discuss incarceration—one from the inside, one from the system’s helm. Topics range from policy failures and bureaucratic inertia to deeply human stories of hope, resilience, and advocacy. Both Todd Chrisley and Director Billy Marshall express determination to see real, meaningful change in the American prison system, grounded in fairness, opportunity, and shared humanity.

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Transcript

[A]

Good morning. How are you?

[B]

I'm doing well. Good to see you.

[A]

Good to see you. Well, it's actually our first time actually.

[B]

Seeing each other, which is strange because we've, we've talked and I feel like I know you already, but. Yeah, believe it or not, this is the first time we've ever seen each other in person.

[A]

It's the first time. And I want to tell you that I'm grateful and blessed to be able to sit, sit here today with you and to have met you today. I do feel like that we have, have forged a bond.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Since I came home from Pensacola on May 28th.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I was so looking forward to this interview. We do this every day. We've been doing television since 2013. But this is one of the most important interviews that I will have done.

[B]

I appreciate that.

[A]

And that's because it affects so many people in our country right now.

[B]

I do think that it'll probably reach a lot of people, probably even beyond what you even think.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think because, you know, we've talked about this before, there's so many people that are affected, whether it's you directly or it's your family members or whoever would be involved. I think this is going to reach far and wide. I believe.

[A]

I agree. I agree. And you know, when I went, I turned myself into self surrender to FPC Pensacola in January, January 17th of 2023 and was the hardest thing I'd ever die. And now I look at where I am today and I'm experiencing a Joseph moment in my life because on May 27th of this year, I went to bed in a bunk bed at your facility there in Pensacola. On May 28, I was in my bed again. And then a week later, I was on the phone with governors from so many different states, reaching out to me and talking to me. Then today I'm sitting here having an interview with the director of the Bureau of Prisons. That's a full circle Joseph moment.

[B]

You said on January 17, 2023, you turned yourself in. January 19, 2023, I became the commissioner in West Virginia. So you think about, think about the parallels we've talked about and how we've ended up kind of in the same spot by. I don't think it's by chance. I think it's obviously a bigger, bigger calling, bigger power. You went from being an inmate situation, inmates to being in your bed, you know, just in a matter of minutes. And I, and I heard Julie say she was. She, like she never planned on being home. Right. Like she figured she was going to do her entire sentence.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So one of the first things that I remember asking you when we talked was, how are you? Because you were trying to take care of everybody else. You were trying to work towards making sure everybody else was covered and taken care of. I just wondered who had asked you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I remember.

[A]

I remember that day when you said that. You said, you know, you're doing a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you're. You're on the phone with us every day trying to help this guy and.

[B]

This guy, but you're not a guy that will slow down. Like, you're like, you're. You're like me. Like my wife will tell you. And if I'm idle, I'm not very good now. You know, like, I can go on vacation for a couple of days and sit on the beach after that. I'm looking for.

[A]

I'm in. See, I got to have something to do.

[B]

So I knew the pace that you were keeping up when you first left being incarcerated, and I'm not concerned about you not being able to keep that pace up. That's who you are, right? That's who I am. Right.

[A]

Well, I think that for me, this is a very, very powerful moment because again, being incarcerated, the men, I call them my brothers that I was there with, you sit around and you're hoping when there's legislative change and things are happening and sentencing commissions are meeting, and you're sitting there saying, well, maybe there's going to be something new come down the pike. And you had your former commissioner, Colette Peters. I didn't have a lot of respect for Colette Peters. When you have a director that goes out into a facility that she know. And she knows that women have been raped and in the custody of the. Of the Bureau of Prisons, and she's. I asked, do you feel you owe these women an apology? And she said, no. Now you're here. That's not something that I believe would ever come from you.

[B]

There's things that happen in corrections that are inherent. Right. And there's a lot of reasons why I'm here. Right. There's a lot of different reasons. We have a responsibility, and I see it as a responsibility and obligation to make sure everybody's incarcerated has the opportunity to get their life back, to have their opportunity to, when they leave incarceration, that they're trained properly, they have the right education, right vocation, whatever it might be. But we have an obligation to do that for them. We talk about. And I think corrections as a whole has been Kind of painted into this corner that we are responsible for punishing the inmate.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I've heard you talk about it. I feel the same way. The punishment is the fact that you're there. The punishment. The fact is that your, your movements are restricted. You know, you've got very little control of your own life. That's your punishment. We are not in the punishment business. And, and I wasn't, I didn't always feel like that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, for 25 years, I was what I call, as I was a state police robot. You know, I, I've received a case, an investigation. I worked it, I put the person responsible in jail for it or prison. I went on to the next one. Never really thinking about the long term effect. Yeah, never, never really think. Just making sure I had the right person because that's a, that's a burden.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But making sure that they were put in there and then thinking you knew what went on in there, but really had no idea. And so I have a responsibility to make sure that our staff have what they need, but also the inmates have what they need. It's on both sides.

[A]

That's right. As sitting there talking to each other, you're hopeful that this new administration is going to do different, that things will get better. And I remember praying for you and praying for Josh, the appointed, because I felt in my spirit that change was coming. And I remember when the appointments came through, I had such a peace. I have to say that it's only gotten better because now I'm out. Now, you know that I will blow you up on the phone because it's my goal to make sure that the Bureau of Prisons is following the law, that they are following your own rules and your own guidelines, and to make sure that the men and women are getting the FSA that they're supposed to be getting, that President Trump implemented in 2018. And that is something that you and I have been very vocal about, that the FSA must be implemented correctly. I get hundreds of calls or messages a day. Todd, do you really think this Director Marshall is going to be the one? And I said, the one for what? He's the one of something. The one of what? What do you want him to be that one for?

[B]

A lot of levels of expectations. Yeah, No, I want them to.

[A]

Cause I want to know what is it they. What one thing do they want from you, Bill? The one thing they want from you is fairness.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Bill, when you took this position with the Bureau of Prisons, you had been with the West Virginia State Police. State police, yeah.

[B]

And then I went from there into sort of a corrections role. I went into the CID unit that I helped stand up, the Criminal Investigation Division for Military affairs at that time, which covered the state police, corrections, and so forth. So it gave me an opportunity to do investigations and conduct and coordinate investigations inside the prisons and jails. And. And right away, I realized that, you know, what, you don't know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I went in with an open mind. There was a lot of really talented, experienced corrections people that were there that took me under their wing for whatever reason and said, hey, this is the way things are. This is the way they could be. And then I kind of took those two things together and kind of made it what I thought it should be. You know, we talked about me getting this position. I wasn't really looking for a job. You know, I hadn't been, you know, confirmed just yet by the new governor that had taken over in West Virginia. And I told my wife all along, like, I consider myself a huge underdog to get this job. And so I didn't really put a lot of pressure on myself. I just continued to be myself. And one thing about positions like this that I've continued to ascend to is that I've not allowed them to change me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Not allowed them to. Not allowed to change who I am.

[A]

I've seen that in the short time that I've not met.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be using the same philosophies. I call it the pragmatic approach, the common sense type approach. And I was really curious to see if I could use what I used with the West Virginia dcr. If those techniques, those styles, those approaches would work at this level. Really all it is is just more inmates and more people. We're in the people business.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, I talked about the inmates and the staff. We're not in what I consider corrections business. We're in people business.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, I don't. I don't ever like to build our success off of the number of staff we have for the. For the amount of money we have. Because I think you get yourself in a different and a strange mindset that, well, if I don't have the money, I can't be successful. If I don't have enough people, I can't be successful. I mean, it's a business to where you have to be successful, regardless. You know, I say it over and over. We don't have the option of putting no Vacancy signs. That's right at the gate. You know, we have to, we have to mission.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

We have to take them. We have to complete the mission irregardless of what our numbers are.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so I've always taken that approach and I was excited to see they, they worked because it made sense to people. You know, simply doing the right thing makes sense to people. We can't keep doing the same old thing. I have to know what those things are right in order to fix those things. Because I say you have to have awareness if you're going to have change.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You have to be aware of what the situation is. So I challenged the BOP employees that were here and to bring me what you think needs to be changed, but also bring me a fix, bring a solution, because then we can work, we can work with that. And it takes time. I've been here about four months and I'm learning stuff every day and I think it's important that I continue to be a student.

[C]

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[A]

You've had less time with the Bureau of Prisons than I have, so I am the senior here when it comes to, you know, 28 months of it What I see in the Bureau of Prisons that I believe that you're already working on, certainly the FSA is one of the number one things it has.

[B]

To work the way it was intended to.

[A]

Exactly. And also rooting out corruption within the Bureau of Prisons. You just said it's not your job nor anyone within the Bureau of Prisons to punish any man or woman that is in your custody. The judge has already done that.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

The punishment is you being away from your loved ones, limited movements, being told as an adult what you can and cannot do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What has to be fixed is we have to be able to do all of this in a manner that is long lasting, that it survives President Trump's term, now that it goes another four years, not just these four years. And it has to be policy driven. We have to put these things into policy because I think what we have seen in these past elections is that it becomes so volatile between candidates that, okay, well, this one's going to run on this platform and they're going to change this and change this, and then someone else comes in four years later. No, not doing that. Just like what Biden did with fsa.

[B]

Just because it wasn't their idea. Exactly.

[A]

And whether you like President Trump or you don't. I do. From obvious reasons.

[B]

Well, let me be clear. I love the guy. He's been great to me, and he's.

[A]

Been great to me and my family. But, you know, whether you like him or whether you don't, if you understand what the First Step act stands for and what it means, then there's no way that the left and the right can't come together. That was the bill that was passed with bipartisan support.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that means for all of you that don't understand that for the first time in a long time, both sides came together to create the First Step Act. And that helps to minimize someone who is in custody, their time being with you, you know, for the lack of a better term, so we don't wear our welcome out with you. And that was not being administered under the Biden administration, even though Trump passed it in 2018. Now, you've inherited this problem that you now know by looking at these case files that the FSA has not been administered correctly, resulting in people losing out on the amount of time that they have in halfway house or even.

[B]

Or even. We're working towards home compliments as well. So both of those things. Both of those things matters, you know, as far as your rehabilitation.

[A]

Absolutely. And I think that in watching what you guys are doing I'm actually seeing these things happen. I'm in direct communication with a lot of the RRMs, with the staff that works there with inmates, and they're saying they're moving them out. And that's a wonderful thing because I don't think that the general public understands that. If you're in a camp, which I don't believe in camps, we've discussed this. If we're talking about a deficit and what it costs to run the Bureau of Prisons, you have a camp, they're not needed. If you can be in a camp, you can be in home confinement. If you're in home confinement, you're paying your own way, you're feeding yourself, you're putting a roof over your own head. You're, you're working, you're paying taxes. That money can then be picked up from there and moved over to your older facilities to start doing repairs.

[B]

Contrary to most, maybe popular belief is we don't want to keep anybody longer than we have to. We spend over $20 million a day housing federal inmates every day. And when you talk about historically, corrections has always been underfunded, understaffed. Right. It's just the nature of the business.

[A]

One of the most important aspects of government is underfunded.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If we're going to sit and say that prison is about protecting society, but yet we fund it with less money.

[B]

Well, that's, that's what I love about President Donald J. Trump's initiative and the big beautiful bill. Attorney General Pam Bondi, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche. They are so supportive of what I'm trying to do here at this bureau. You know, the money that we've received from the big beautiful bill, the money increase that we, that we'll see in our, in our regular budget, we want to be able to, we want people to get their lives back. We don't want them to be there longer than they have to. You know, the more people that we can release back out into custody, a large percentage of those individuals are going to be our friends and neighbors again.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Right. They're going to be out there. So wouldn't you rather they be prepared when they go out? Right. We've seen the, the, the responses that we get when someone gets released properly with an FSA credit or with a second chance credit or even, you know, partner for. We see the joy that these individ have when they are able, a chance to reunite with their family.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's a huge deal. And so I always think that life's about helping people Right. And so I've been public service my whole life. Right. And so it's, it's trying to get those individuals back with their families, mentally and physically healthy as we can get them back so we don't see them again. And I think sometimes it gets lost in the data, the analytics, all this, it's about people. It's a, it's, it, there's a real person behind that number.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so that's what's important. It can't be lost.

[A]

That's right. And you know, when you talk about recidivism, we as a country incarcerate more individuals of our own people than anywhere else in the world, yet we still have the highest recidivism rate. Just that statistic says that what we're doing is not working.

[B]

So the last, I think the last probably, I'm going to say 10 to 12 years, I think this country mindset has shifted towards allowing inmates not to be put in there. The Keith. Right away, I think that that mindset has changed. My wife Jodi and I were watching a movie last night. It was, I think the movie was at least 10 years old, maybe longer, maybe 12 years old. And they, and they had, it was a comedy and they referenced a first step program even then prior to this legislation, this bill being introduced by President Trump. So that's, that mindset was, was starting even back then. And you know, there was a time where I was, like I said, a state police robot. You put them in, you don't worry about it, you move on. So different that I look back, I'm, and how was I so narrow minded before about, you know, the people that I was arresting, the people I was putting in jail, in prison, don't get me wrong, I was, I had empathy, I had, you know, I had a heart for people. I wanted to help people. Looking at it now, I'm like, you know, these, these individuals, they're, they're just like we are, you know, they made a mistake, some of them worse than others. And we have an, you know, we have an opportunity here to help them, to help them get their lives back.

[A]

Exactly. And you're, it's very clear, by the grace of God go you and I, you know, none of us knows what tomorrow's going to hold. But what I can tell you is that my brothers at FPC Pensacola, which this is a facility that we'll talk about in a few minutes, one that you have chosen to close. You know, I used to sit and counsel so many and just have Conversations with them. And I said, you are worthy. This one mistake does not define the rest of your life. This is one chapter of your life. You've got so many more chapters to write.

[B]

And I can even say that, that individuals that are in our facilities for life, they still can have an impact. They can still have a role as a mentor for these individuals. That's right, men and women. And so in order to make them realize that and give them that opportunity, yes, you will probably die with us, but you can still be impactful in this world by helping these individuals look at things differently, better, you know, they're going to be being released. Like, you mentored a lot of these young individuals.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I guarantee you that you've changed their lives. You've impacted their lives. And that's what I don't understand. When we talk about the corruption that occurs in our facilities, why would you not want to be the best part of their day, knowing that one day they're going to be able to get out and have their own life? And you don't want to be that. That influencer that kind of ruined their life or tried to make them. Because they'll never forget how you treated them. No, they'll never forget it.

[A]

You know. You know, I've always. I raised my children with that, that, you know, people may forget your name, but they will not forget how you made them feel.

[B]

True.

[A]

And, you know, I remember my first day there at Pensacola, and I was standing on the sidewalk, just looking up at the sky, thinking, God, where did I fail? You know, I was so angry at God at that moment. And that one person that you remember was walking down the sidewalk, and it was Chaplain Angela Dixon. And she knew that I was upset. And she said, Mr. Christa, she says, let's go to the chapel. She was the chaplain there, and she saved me. She literally. She was that one person. So I will remember her forever because she was a good, decent, honest human being. And then I also have ones that I'm not going to get into, but I have ones that I will remember also for her. Where we are today in society, so many people are affected by our judicial system. That doesn't make them a horrible human being. It makes them someone who is a human being who's made a mistake. And hopefully they'll learn from that mistake. In this 28 months that I was in prison, I could have literally chosen to be angry and hate everyone around me, but God did not place that in my spirit.

[B]

I don't feel that that's your nature.

[A]

Though, Anyway, he didn't place it in my spirit. And you know, we were talking, we were talking about earlier when you said to Judah that Judah did not count on getting out early.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Well, let me tell you, I went in there that was planning on leaving the next day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Every day I was leaving. So it was. Julie was another way of having it. She handled her time the way she had to. Every day I got up, I'm like, okay, I got to get up and get my hair fixed, get my clothes on, because I'm leaving it.

[B]

But life's about anticipation, right? Absolutely. You had to have that. Julie was focused on what she was instructed to do.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

She's a rule follower.

[A]

She's a.

[B]

My wife's a rule follower. Right. I'm not saying I'm not a rule follower, but I get a little bit to the edge sometimes when it comes to, you know, ambitions and what I need to be doing. And so, yeah, that, that's, that' the mindset. But you have to have that anticipation. That's how it works. That's how it works.

[C]

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[A]

This morning, you know, with someone here at the at the BOP that when we take hope from someone, when you strip hope out of someone's life, what do they have? Yeah, if you tell someone that you know what, you're never getting out of prison. Yes, you were given 10 years and you know and they're signing. But ma', am, the FSA says that I'm only going to do 48 to 52% of that. Yeah, well, I don't care. I don't want to hear that you're doing your 10 years. You're stripping hope. When you say you can't have visitation this weekend, you're stripping hope. When you take phone privileges, you're stripping Hope. When you take commissary, you're stripping hope. So I want to talk about that for a few minutes. What is your take on mass punishment?

[B]

When I first got here, I was really curious when I saw the lockdowns, the canceled visitation that we talked about, the limiting of commissary, things like that. And so I wanted to be made aware from the regional directors every time that happened. And I wanted to see why it was happening, what their mindset was, how long it was going to take. And very early on, I'm seeing, okay, you had two inmates that had a fight in this section that had nothing to do with the other side of the building, but the whole building was locked down. And what I found was. And it's kind of corrections in general. It makes things easier, right? Because when everybody's locked down, there's no movement. It makes things easier for the staff. And then the excuse is, well, we don't have enough staff. So that makes it easier when we can. We. We can do our jobs. And that just wasn't good enough. When you have people in the parking lot waiting to see their family members, and they say, sorry, visitation is closed. We didn't have enough people show up today for. Well, that. That's probably a real situation, but that's not a good excuse to do that. We need to focus the resources to that area so they can have their visitation because it's so important. I started getting notifications of all of those, and we still get it. We still. Matter of fact, I worked on a couple last night. We want to know, number one, why did we lock the facility down? And so it makes it easier when you limit commissary. You don't have to have anybody there to do it, right?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

When you limit all those things, it just. It isolates everybody. You don't have as much work to do. We have to get away from that mindset, and we are getting away from that mindset, because I'll call. It's not beyond me to call regional director and say, hey, I have seen this happen. Yeah, what's up? They may not even be doing something in their mind wrong. I'm giving them a different way to look at it, a different way to think about it. We had a murder. We had that thing wrapped up in. In, you know, a day and a half, right? You know, we're locking things down for a week because two guys got into a fight or somebody stole somebody's Blanket.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, so it's like we have to. We have to be more aware of what's going on. If you cancel visitation, you're going to have cranky inmates. You have cranky inmates. You got a cranky facility.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You got a cranky facility. You got cranky staff.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And it just. It just resonates throughout the whole place, and then it ends up being resonating throughout the whole bureau and being forced to learn about those things that the. The. The operations of the. Of the facilities, the budgets, the. All these types of things. I like to say I've got a master's degree in bs, right. So I can read through it. You know, I have that.

[A]

I gained that from raising five children.

[B]

You didn't even have to go to the interview and interrogation school to get it right. So. So raising our, you know, seven children is the same way. You know, they hate it because they. I know when they're lying. You know what I'm saying? I just don't know how it's. How far am I going to let them go down the road? Right. I don't mind being called. My wife will tell you. The phone rings all the time, and I'm always willing to take the call and find out what's going on. When I see directors, commissioners, so force. Put it on autopilot, rely too heavily on their staff, it's usually not a recipe for success.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I pride myself on not being a micromanager. I want to empower our individuals that are in place.

[A]

Well, I think that we're only as good as the people we surround ourselves.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

So then your take on it is that there is no room in the BOP for having mass punishment.

[B]

I don't see it as a solution to the problem. Now, if you have a fight on the yard where there's like a couple of dirty people and then that's a different situation, break that all down. But we've gotten to where because it's easier. We're locking these individuals down and taking, I think, what, in my opinion, too long to do an investigation, conduct an interview or something like that. But we know not all wardens are created equal.

[A]

No, they're not.

[B]

I mean, it's like a. It's like a. It's like a coach of a team. You know, you can start winning games overnight if you got the right coach in place. That's the way I look at these wardens.

[A]

So do you acknowledge that in your time that you have been with the Bureau of prisons that there are issues with the way the commissary is being.

[B]

Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think. I think it's just become a mindset that we're punishing them for whatever. Right. I just don't. That's not my mindset, and that's not the Bureau.

[A]

It's not the law.

[B]

Yeah. And that's not the bureau that I'm going to. I'm. Will be part of, or I'm going to lead. And we're going to fix it. We're going to pivot and fix it.

[A]

I would rather see you make a mistake than to do nothing.

[B]

Doing nothing is. Is not an option. It's not an option.

[A]

How do you feel when you hear that staff is not happy?

[B]

Are they really the kind of people we want anyway? One thing that they'll never be able to say about me is that I'm not honest and I'm not fair when I. When I approach something, I try to be thoughtful, empathetic. I try to understand there's a different perspective on things. There's a lot of jobs out there. I mean, they can go find something else to do, but I'm just not going to tolerate that. I can like you and still fire you, you know? And so I just. I just don't. I just don't have that mindset to where I have any. Any tolerance for someone who is going to purposely lie to me, purposely try to harm somebody, you know, do something behind somebody's back. You get one opportunity for that, right? You get one.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And then that's it.

[A]

And that's how I look at it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of staff members reach out to me. They reach out to Savannah. They're constantly delivering information to us about things that are going on in the facility. I turn around and turn that back over to you guys. You start the investigations. You have found that some of this information that we've given you has been true.

[B]

Actually, more so than not. Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

I feel like that we're on the right path because I'm seeing the change. I'm seeing the movement. I'm seeing people being held accountable. Is it fair to say that since you've taken over that just in the length of time that you've been here, that you can acknowledge that the Bureau of Prisons, that you've got your hands full?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, listen, I knew coming in that this was going to be a tremendous challenge, but I never once batted an eye to take on the challenge.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If I didn't have the support of my wife and kids and my family and the thought that I could do this job, I mean, as well or better than anybody that's ever had it, I wouldn't be here to address and fix and try to build. That excites me that I have a chance to build something with the support of the president, with the support of the AG, knowing that they're behind me 100%. Same thing I did back at my home state. I would have never been able to do what I've done had it not been for Governor justice, now Senator justice, his chief of staff, Brian Abraham. They were behind me 100%. And that's what I have here now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, yeah, we. I've got my hands full. I'm the guy for the job. I'm built for this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we're going to, we're going to get a lot of things done here. I'm excited.

[A]

An issue that I feel like that needs to be addressed is these wardens. Because these wardens, you know, it starts at the top. And if you have a warden that's being abusive, not following policy, that trickles down to the stuff, to the staff that's under them, from an AW to a cmc, you know, it just, it's just not a good look. And you know, we've talked about you've got to take the head off the snake.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, you have these wardens that come in, and a lot of times these wardens are not of the same intellectual capacity as some of these inmates that they're there with, but they have this godlike complex. And it is, you know what? You didn't pick me when I was in the 10th grade for kickball. So now I've got that. I'm going to carry that through life.

[B]

Yeah. Not everybody can handle authority.

[A]

Right? And so my warden, I would have never picked her then. I wouldn't pick her now.

[C]

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[A]

What are your plans for something like that?

[B]

So I use a lot of sports analogies, right? And you have to have the right coach if you're going to win games and have the right calls. You have to have the right coach. When I first got here, first week or two, you know, I was given a list of 25 or 30 warden vacancies that they had suggestions for that. They wanted me to sign off on. And I'm like, I'm not going to sign off on that. And they looked at me like, well, that's the way it usually goes. And I'm like, well, that's not the way it goes now. You know, I want to put these people in place with my vision in mind. And so that was a perfect opportunity for me. They looked at it like a negative. We got all these vacancies. Well, I look at it as a positive because I've got a chance to put the right person there. And I'm not going to try to. You know, we're going to miss a couple, don't get me wrong. But that's an opportunity to get the right person in place to really impact that facility positively. So. And this is something that I just learned, you know, through this process that really shocked me, that there's no interview process when it comes to wardens.

[A]

Just so that the general public knows the warden, they're huge, is like the person that controls every aspect of your life.

[B]

They have to be an extension of. Of the director's office, myself. They have to be. They have to have that same mindset, that same vision, that same expectations, that same culture. And there was no interview process to have a warden put in place. It was heavily weighted on the regional directors and so forth. And so we recently have contracted with a firm that has met with me. I know this individual from previous work. I got a lot of confidence in her as well. And so she knows what I'm looking for. When it comes to what I expect from a leader, I will go with the lesser talented person if they're a great person. Right. Give me character over talent. Right now they got to have some talent, but you give me character. And I can make them into anything that we need them to be.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Or woman. Right.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So we started this process where they're going to start interviewing these candidates. And so they're going to give us. This is an outside agency, outside agency that we've contracted with. So they're going to give us the top two or three for each facility that would be a great fit for that facility through their interviews. And then ultimately, myself and Deputy Smith will make those decisions on who we believe needs to be there.

[A]

If you get a great warden and you get a great aw, the aw is going to mimic what the warden is wanting. Wanting to implement.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And if they'll run their jobs and not worry about offending another fellow coworker, stay within policy, you're treating people fairly, you're gonna have a facility that is going to run that way.

[B]

Absolutely. And keep in mind when you say, aw, it's associate warden.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that's the support staff underneath of the warden. But I've also had associate wardens reach out to me and say, our warden's got problems. We need some help.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's not like they always stay lockstep with one another. Even the ones that are in place are being evaluated as well. Just because you're in place now don't mean you're safe. You have to continue to do the job and continue to hold true to what our mission is. But this is a great opportunity for us to put the right person in the right place. We have to have that person.

[A]

Absolutely. It just came out in the press about 48 hours ago that I was there to speak for the graduation of the RDAP program, which I was invited to do this. I did not come to the BOP to ask.

[B]

That's. That's correct. Yeah.

[A]

The staff there seems to be under the impression that I closed this facility.

[B]

Man. I think a lot of you don't have a lot of power.

[A]

I'm assuming that you guys did your investigation, your due diligence of the facility, and you made an educated decision on why this facility no longer works.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, there was. There was a much bigger picture than. Than what you just stated. I mean, there was a huge infrastructure issue there. It's on a military base that was going to be decommissioned. The amount of money that it would have taken to get it to where we would expect it to be, the quality we'd want it to be. It just didn't seem like the right place to spend money on. We received $2 billion from the big beautiful bill for infrastructure. I don't want to waste even a hundred thousand dollars of that money because it's one time money. So that was a place where we just didn't see the need or the reason to put money into that facility. Because I felt like it was just going to be what they call money pit. Your real estate guy, Money pit. Right.

[A]

Well, it came from Colette Peters. She listed it as being a facility that needed to be closed.

[B]

And there's a list of facilities that were notified they were going to be closed or was on the closed list. Since I've come on board, there's a couple facilities like Morgantown and Duluth that I've decided to keep open because there's a bigger picture. I have A bigger vision for it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because we're talking about, when you're talking about home confinement, things like that, we're also talking about, you know, halfway house beds that we can maybe use the camps for, or even like a medical facility. Duluth is near two trauma level, level three trauma units.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's a big deal.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Because we got an aging population.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So those are the. Those are bigger picture things for me. I don't like to do things like knee jerk. You know what I'm saying? I try to be very thoughtful in what we're doing going forward.

[A]

Well, you know, going back there and speaking. Christy, who works with you here, I had shared with her that, you know, I hope I will go and deliver a message that will be uplifting for the men that I left behind. And while at the same token, telling the truth. And I did that. And I feel good about what I did. I feel good about the speech, I feel good about that. The way it was received by those that I cared to receive.

[B]

I've got friends and family. They'll say so and so was blasting you on this platform or so and so on TikTok or whatever. And. And I. I just have a genuine not care. I don't care, like, because I know who I am.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I know who my wife is. I know what we stand for, how we live our lives every day. These couch warriors or these social media warriors, I mean, I really.

[A]

Keyboard cowboys is what I call.

[B]

Yeah. Like, you know, my son Kaden, he. He's ready to whip somebody. Ever something somebody says, I'm like, you know, I got. Temper them down a little bit because it doesn't matter. It doesn't impact what I do, and it doesn't change who I am.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so whether you received all positive or all negative, if you gave that message, like I know you did, from the heart, honestly, if there's individuals there that don't want to hear that truth, then they probably shouldn't be there. I want you to have a facility where you're okay with anybody talking to me, inmate or employee. Right.

[A]

It used to be one of the biggest pet peeves that I had was when your regional directors would come to Pensacola, but yet they would give them a week's notice, two weeks notice, and all of a sudden you'd see this flurry of everyone cleaning and painting over the black mold and doing whatever. And that day they would serve those men the food they were supposed to be getting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. But the next day, it was back to them not getting fed correctly. And I wanted to touch on that. What is your take on the nutrition values that the, that these individuals are supposed to receive?

[B]

So we, we can always do better. I think there's, it's important to me and I, I sent out a message a few days ago that if you're not willing to eat that food that you're handing out to our inmates, don't.

[A]

Feed it to someone else.

[B]

Don't serve it. Right.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so when we go to the facilities, I've had meals at these facilities and I'm, you know, I'm sure they're, you know, probably a little bit different than what you're used to. But I'll ask the inmates, is this anything different than what you normally have? And most of the time I'll say no. But I want to see also, like, not for that week, but I want to see a pattern. What does the menus look like?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And did you actually get this that they serve.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, I've heard stories about, you know, outdated ham and nine years out frozen things. And you know, even, even Deputy Smith told me he had, they were, had preserved corn dogs from like the 1983 state fair somewhere. Like they were like a dozen years old. I'm like, how do you eat that? And like, well, we didn't. And I'm thinking that is no way is that right in any way whatsoever.

[A]

And, you know, when I was at Pensacola, I never had one meal in the chowhole.

[B]

I heard you say that.

[A]

Yeah, I never went in that chow hall and had one meal. Only because a, it wasn't claimed. The food was out of date. There was feral cats running throughout the campus and they were always on those trays in the back. But the men had, I can see.

[B]

My wife back there cringing. A cat on a countertop is just like, that's not it.

[A]

I don't eat cat hair. It is a huge component of a human being's life. They start to take on that they're not worthy. Well, if I'm not worthy of a decent meal, I'm not worthy of a shower. Today. You strip them of their self worth and then you wonder why they go out here and they, you know, they, yeah, they commit crimes again.

[B]

Well, because the, the decent meal, the decent nutrition once again is part of the rehabilitation. Right. And so, and I think maybe as a whole, I think it's on the upswing now with the new administration in place, with President Trump being aware of everything that is important to people. Even my wife, the former schoolteacher, even the meals that they serve the kids at lunch in school systems, not great like it used to be.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, I remember having a great meal.

[A]

I did, too, when I was going to school.

[B]

We begged for seconds.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I mean, it was a big deal.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think even to that point, it's just gotten to where it's been reduced to where it's almost a joke, to where, you know, this is what they serve and, you know, hard pizza and, you know, green hot dogs and those types of stories. And so I think as a whole, we need to be. We need to do a better job as a society. Whether it's incarceration or whether it's in schools or whatever, the right. They have to have a proper meal. If you, if you have an inmate that's had a decent meal, they're going to feel better about.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And they're going to behave better, you know, in regards to being around the staff or whatever. So it's important to me. We're going to start, you know, and we've already started, you know, making sure that the food's up to date, make sure we don't serve things. It's. It's not. That's not proper. I'm here to see what the culture is. I want to see how the inmates are. Are they being treated the right way? Do they have what they need? I want to see is the leadership and, you know, do we have the right leadership at this facility? I can look at something that would tell you just cleaned that up. I could tell.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I'll point it out, you know, so I'm not afraid to do that. Of course, now, obviously, if it's dirty, I'm going to say, come on, guys. So I haven't experienced that just yet. But in the areas where I said I thought we could do better, I make sure we point that out. I'm going to back up just a little bit. You talk about the lockdowns. We're in the process of introducing tablets facilities to all the inlets. That way they can continue to have their vocation or education. So for that, if they do experience a lockdown. But the bigger component of that is they can also have visits, video visits and calls on their tablets to their family. So that'll help them reconnect and have that part of their rehabilitation. So there's a lot of things like that that I'm looking at that how can we improve not only the lives of the inmates, but the Lives of the staff, make sure they have what they need.

[A]

What do you think your success rate's going to be in implementing a lot of these things that you're wanting to do?

[B]

But we're going to win it all. I mean, we're going to win everything. I mean, there's nothing I'm going to say. I don't think we can get there. I have a list. I run a list of, like, what I know I can do, what I think I can do and what I want to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And marking those things off as we go. I don't see any area of corrections, at least from where I'm sitting, that we can accomplish and get things done.

[A]

How do you feel about the lack of medical care?

[B]

So we have a situation when it comes to staff. Right. So we have to be able to compete with the private sector when it comes to medical care, when it comes to psychologists, psychiatrists. So we're losing a lot of these because we're not maybe as competitive as with salaries as the private sector, obviously. But we're also not letting them do the job we hired them to do. Also, we're making them into corrections officers, and they don't want to be corrections officers. They want to do the job that we hired them to do. Right. So we have to do a better job there.

[A]

And then again, I have to go off of what I saw, what I experienced. There was no medical care at FEC Pensacola. It was horrible. I mean, there was no doctors. There's no doctor there now. You know, psychology was a bad thing there. It was. It was lacking in every aspect. So in doing my research, what I have found.

[B]

You were probably the psychologist there.

[A]

Well, listen, I believe on my worst day, I could have done better than what was being offered there.

[B]

I know you did a lot of mentoring there.

[A]

Yes, I looked at. I started doing some research, and I'm not quite sure why someone would go to medical school to land at the Bureau of Prisons with what they're being paid. So that tells me that this individual was not at the top of their class, or they'd be practicing in private practice, or they'd be with some big medical firm or what have you, and it's, you're gonna get what you pay for.

[B]

Well, I'm gonna disagree with you just a little bit.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Because there is a part of community service and mission that drives some people. Right. Like we will say, you know, I've referenced my wife several times. She's. She's brilliant. Right. She could have done anything in the world. Right. She chose to be a school teacher.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, and the joke is, you know, in driving 1983 Frigidaire to work him back, you know what I'm saying? So it's like that's what she chose to do because that's where her heart was, passion. She could have went and made more money, but it wouldn't have mean anything to her. Just like with me in the state police, I could have went in a lot of different places and had opportunities through my career to go make more money. But that's where my heart was. Right. That's where the mission was. That's where my, my, you know, my desire was to be. So I do think I will. I don't totally agree with you 100%. That's not. But there, but there are, there is, there is logic behind what you're saying. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I'm saying. So let me go back on that. I'm witnessing, you know what I witnessed? I mean, I'm witnessing a psychologist screaming and yelling at an inmate and, you know, belittling them and calling them names. That's not someone who's happy with their job.

[B]

No, absolutely not.

[A]

So if we're going to say that this is a psychologist and that, that, you know, it's, it's mission driven, that's not mission driven. Delivery.

[B]

I agree with that.

[A]

You know, I'm again only talking about what I know.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I just feel like when I look at the salaries of someone who has dedicated their life to going to school and to attain a higher level of education, again with teachers. You know, in this country, we pay our teachers who we're entrusting with the most value, valuable thing that we've ever had that God has ever given us. We are paying them less than what some people are making cleaning houses. Correct. That's a problem. But you have that same problem within the Bureau of Prisons. Sure. If you want to truly have a wonderful psychologist that's helping these men and women, you can't be paying them. I literally looked this up two days ago and this is going to be a shout out to Taco Bell. Taco Bell's managers make more than your psychologists do.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

That is the truth.

[B]

That's a fact. That has been part of the government service for a long, long time. We have hired master's level people and offered them salaries that were less than what it cost them to get their masters.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

So I feel like this administration is going to Help me improve that because we've talked about that. That's where my focus is. And we can't really do it with the big beautiful bill money because it's one time money and fund things for, from, from now on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So. But there are a lot of good things with that 3 million, that $3 billion that we can do with training and bringing in different positions and things like that. That'll really be an impact for us. So the bigger fix is to fix that pay structure government. It's really, really hard to change things in government.

[A]

Right, I'm fully aware.

[B]

But if you can get it changed, it's really, really hard to unchange it.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And it's really, really hard for other people to put that much effort into it to get a vaccine.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

We're going to put that effort into it that it's going to take. It's going to be painful, but we're going to put that effort into it to fix the pay scale, to get it to where, I mean, we can't pay our people for what they're worth. I mean, let's just face it. But we can do better. We just can't sit around think it's going to improve itself. We just, and we just hope that they have the mission to heart and all this kind of stuff. Because that, you know, hope's not going to get you anywhere. Hope's not a plan.

[A]

That's exactly right. And you know, having a heart for mission doesn't pay your mortgage, it doesn't pay your car payment.

[B]

Yeah. So being a state police and a school teacher, we didn't listen, we worked our tails off, didn't make a lot of money. We loved what we were doing. But once again, I can't expect everybody to feel that way.

[A]

That's right. Yeah, that's right. You know, the inspector general has inspected multiple facilities of yours and I welcome.

[B]

That, by the way.

[A]

Right. And you know that those reports have come back not favorable, correct?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

One of the biggest issues that the inspector general zoned in on was the use of the shoe. What is your stand on the, on the use of the shoe, using the.

[B]

Shoe, Solitary confinement, whatever they want to call the hole, whatever they will call it. So I do think it is an area that's, that's probably overused because I think that's the, that's the general nature with corrections. I know that the facilities I've gone to. The shoe is full. So now there's a long list of individuals that are in there that justifies them being there. So that's something that we're continuing to look at. I do think it's overused. I don't quite have my arms wrapped around what we do here at the bureau just yet. What they might be missing is they still get all the amenities that they're supposed to get, minus being around other people. So we want to make sure that that's the case. And I don't know that that's the case with us. Right. So I want to make sure that they still have the opportunity. When tablets come into play, that'll be an impact as well.

[A]

How do you feel about the. Because we've already talked about the decaying infrastructure. Doesn't it make it worse putting someone in a shoe and the. And the temperatures reaching 100 degrees because you've got no air there.

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot of issues like that. I think that needs to be addressed.

[A]

Well, I mean, I've seen you. I've seen you address them.

[B]

Yes. Historically, we've been, you know, underfunded, it would appear. But this new administration is saying they've increased our general budget. Right. Big, beautiful bill money as well. I got to make sure that we use that money the right way, right down to the right, right areas. So I can say two, three years down the road, we improve this, this and this. Not just sprinkle that money a little bit everywhere to where it really don't fix anything. But everybody gets a little taste.

[A]

That's.

[B]

I'm not it. I don't. I'm not into that. That's not my style.

[A]

Are you open to expanding the courses or the classes or the programming?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

For the bureau of prison?

[B]

Absolutely. I think any, any, any time that you can provide programming education, I think that, that, that's better for everybody. Right. I'm a big proponent for education.

[A]

Are you open to expanding to film and television? Any kind of programs for. For cameras?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Camera operators, audio, things like that.

[B]

Yeah. I've actually gone as far as thinking like maybe we could have like an inmate ran radio station for the, for.

[A]

The, for the facility podcast.

[B]

They could have their own podcast, things like that. So if you go to one of our unicorn facilities and, and you know, prison industries, where you want to call it, and the amount of talent these individuals have, they're working with, with metals and working with wood and so forth. It's. It's fascinating. You see some of the artists. There's a gentleman at one of the facilities. I can't remember if it's Hazelton. I think it's Hazelton. He, he makes leather handbags. I mean. Yep. You'd be impressed. I mean, it, you know, we had, we had a lot of talent.

[A]

We had one that worked at dz, Billy Mack, and he was a welder and he could make anything, jewelry, whatever. And I mean, this is jewelry that people would, in my circles, would be paying a lot of money for. And I believe that they need to have that opportunity. If we give them the tools to walk out of there with a plan, then the plan is no longer going to the street.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And so that's what I want to continue to move forward. You know, it's not about, you know, so many people have said that, you know, that I'm attacking the Bureau of Prisons. I don't want it to be that way. I want to work in tandem.

[B]

I'm attacking the Bureau of Prisons in the areas that needs attacked. Right. And so, and I want to make it clear with, as far as the art goes, if you're a violent offender, if you're an Ms. 13 or something, your art's not getting out there. That's not what this is about.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But the individuals that want to better their lives, that want to do things, you know, for the right reasons and have that craft when they, when they leave, we're getting to the point where we're going to be able to offer IDs and try to help them with birth certificates and Social Security cards and the things that they need. Those small hurdles that we don't even like to deal with in everyday life, if we can eliminate some of those small hurdles to get them back on track, meeting with union leaders, you know, out in the trades to say, hey, you consider hiring these individuals, you're having a hard time hiring people anyway. You don't have enough workforce. These individuals are trained, they're ready. That's right. And so, yeah, all those types of.

[A]

Things go into, and you know, I was there with lots of several developers, real estate developers, and tap into that. If you're saying you've got, you've got trouble with infrastructure, you're now dealing with people that are doing, you know, hundred million dollar projects.

[B]

There's inmates that are running the entire computer operations with their vinyl screening and they're, you know, making nameplates for the military and, and, and, and you know, with all their digital art and all, it's all inmates that are doing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so they're tapping into that quite a bit. The ones that didn't have maybe the talent Coming in. They're getting that there now. Right. And so there's a lot of that. That that's going on. And. And so we're definitely. I would definitely look into expanding that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, it has been a pleasure and I greatly appreciate you giving me this opportunity to have this interview. I never thought I'd be able to say this, because as, again, I'm not a proponent for the Bureau of Prisons, but I will say that for those that are still incarcerated, that it is a brighter day in this country with you at the head of it, and I don't have to kiss your ass. I'm free. If I didn't believe that you were going to do what you say you're going to do, I've seen it. I know what you're doing. And for that I'm grateful. I'm grateful for myself. I'm grateful because it helps me sleep better at night knowing that the men that I left behind, they have a better chance of getting the halfway house, they get a better chance to go to home confinement, they're going to get better meals, they're going to get better health care, they're going to be treated fairly. The abuse is going to stop. I believe you have the ability to do that. I believe more importantly that you have the heart to want to do that, and that's what it's going to take to lead this organization. You have to have someone who has a heart for change.

[B]

And I appreciate that. I think I'm on the right track because I've got Nanny Faye in my corner. She's already proud of me.

[A]

She's proud of you. And she says that. She says, now, how's that Marshall guy doing? I said, well, he's still alive.

[B]

We're just scratching the surface service right now, you know, so. But I do appreciate the opportunity to be on and. And you know, the thing that. That you've been is just genuine. You've asked for nothing in return, you know, and so I know that your heart's in the right place to help the Bureau going forward. And so there's a lot of people like you out there that's come to me that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with the Bureau. Right. They didn't really think about the Bureau that's come to me and said, hey, how can we help?

[A]

Right.

[B]

For nothing in return. And so those are the types of areas where if I can draw from those resources, that only helps us be better.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so, you know, I've been successful in my life and career, but I've taken a lot of ideas from a lot of other people. Right. I mean, I've learned from their mistakes. I've seen what. What was done that was right. What was done that was wrong. I've heard people say things. I'm like, that's not going to work. That's right. And so I've had those experiences. So I'm excited about what we have ahead of us. You know, like I said, I've been here four months, and I feel like sometimes I feel like I've been here forever, Right? Sometimes I feel like I've been here for 10 minutes. But we're going to get a lot of things done. I'm excited about what we've got ahead of us. I'm excited for the opportunity to build the Bureau with my vision and with the help of others.

[A]

Well, I thank you very much. I thank our President of the United States, Donald J. Trump. I thank all of the individuals here at the Bureau of Prisons that have stepped up and said, you know, we're going to get in line, we're going to follow.

[B]

There's been a bunch of them, Director.

[A]

Marshall's directives, and for that I'm grateful. So good luck and God bless you, brother.

[B]

Appreciate you. Thank you, buddy. Thanks.