← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
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- [00:03]
Christiane Amanpour
This is a global player original podcast Christianity. Remember when you fell down with the Ukrainian president?
- [00:11]
Jamie Rubin
Oh, yes, sure. Stop. This is the stuff you should be recording. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the first bonus episode. Christiane Amanpour presents the X Files. I'm Christiane. I am a foreign correspondent and host of a program interviewing world leaders. I've been doing this for CNN and a bunch of others for about 35 years. Jamie is a former government official, a former diplomat. He worked in the State Department in the UN For Presidents Clinton and Biden. Now, we were married for 20 years. We've been divorced now for seven years. If you want the full story, you will have to listen to our first episode, which came out earlier this week, but hopefully you've done that already. Now, on these bonus episodes, we'll be answering your questions every week. So email amanpur pod global.com or get in touch on social media. Our handle is@amanpur pod. We're on Instagram, Tik Tok, YouTube, X, Facebook, Blue sky, and Threads. But as this is our first ever bonus episode, we decided it might be fun. We hope to ask each other some questions to try to get some answers that we've always wanted to know or at least get them said publicly. And so here we go.
- [01:36]
Christiane Amanpour
All right, so how about this one? Did you ever lose it during an interview with a world leader? Did you ever start laughing or start getting angry with them? I sort of remember that with the foreign minister of Russia, Lavrov, didn't you?
- [01:52]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, that went a bit viral. So that was in about 2016, just during the Clinton Trump first campaign there. And Trump, if you remember, had said this thing like, I can grab any woman by the pussy. And, you know, they love it or something like that just because, you know, any, any celebrity can do that. So that created an absolute outrage. So I decided, don't ask me why. I sitting in front of Lavrov asking him important questions about something. And I remember Pussy Riot. And that was the, you know, the local protest group in Russia who'd been put in jail and exiled to Siberia. So I thought I would, you know, say something like, you know, you've had your own pussy riots. What did you make of Trump and his pussy riots, so to speak? And the guy sat there and he looked at me and I thought, this is just going to go downhill. I'm going to be marched out of the Foreign Ministry and out of the country. And all of a sudden he said, English is not my first language. I don't quite know how to put this, I don't know so much about your politics. Yeah, right. You know, they'd been accused being involved in the politics there. And he said, but as far as I can see, everybody's a pussy over there. You got so many pussies. Oh, my God. Russia had its own Pussy Riot moment. What do you think of Donald Trump's Pussy Riot moment? Well, I don't know whether this would. English is not my mother tongue. I don't know whether I would sound, I mean, decent. There are so many pussies around your presidential campaign on both sides that I prefer not to comment about this.
- [03:37]
Christiane Amanpour
Oh, my goodness.
- [03:38]
Jamie Rubin
I wasn't expecting that.
- [03:41]
Christiane Amanpour
Lavrov was the U.N. ambassador when Madeleine was U.N. ambassador. And he and I smoked about 1,000 cigarettes together outside the U.N. i remember that he was actually the most intelligent foreign diplomat I ever met. He could speak Russian, French and English and describe 30 years of UN resolutions backwards and forwards. And at that time we were working with the Russians. Now, unfortunately, he's put that brilliance to use for Putin's disastrous policies in Ukraine.
- [04:12]
Jamie Rubin
You know, it is extraordinary to think that. And, you know, after all the reset buttons and bringing, you know, Putin into the G8, you know, expanding the G7 and WTO and all that kind of stuff, how Lavrov and Putin are now behind this, you know, Kremlin wall and the face of complete destruction of, of the international rules of the road. And that's still going on. And obviously we're going to have to talk about that a lot. It just reminds me of back in 2004 or five, when there was the Orange revolution in Ukraine. That was one of those color revolutions that Putin hated so much. And in this case, it was the amazing Ukrainian politician, Victor Yushchenko, who had been poisoned. Putin was accused of his thugs poisoning him with some kind of dioxin or something that created this horrendous, monstrous face out of a guy who was really handsome and good looking. I mean, Victor, you shanked his face.
- [05:10]
Christiane Amanpour
There's a funny part to that story, isn't there? When you interviewed him? Why don't you tell us that?
- [05:14]
Jamie Rubin
Oh, my God. Well, yes, I went and I got this exclusive interview and I got it for 60 Minutes. I was working for 60 Minutes, the CBS News magazine, as well as CNN, and we had set it up and it was all fabulous. And I was doing the sit, sit down interview with Yushenko, and his wife was, was a Ukrainian American and a very deeply, you know, convinced Christian as well. And she was, she was very nice Woman and they wanted to entertain us a little bit and take us to this room and that room. So we thought, well, we, we'll film it, you know, what we call a walk and talk. And. And I was just walking and looking, you know, at him while I was talking, and all of a sudden I went literally flat on my face out of nowhere, because all the crew's big cases were lying around and I'd taken the wrong diversion or something. In any event, I fell. And neither he nor I kind of stopped or recognized this terrible moment. And I just got up and just kept going, kept asking him the questions. But it was, it was pretty funny. And he was a really important man in the history of free Ukraine and democratic Ukraine in the same way that.
- [06:27]
Christiane Amanpour
Zelensky is today, probably. You've gotten to know him pretty well, too.
- [06:31]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, I have, I have. And actually, really interestingly, on the stages each time when it was really make or break for Ukraine. I mean, the first time he came from Kiev, he came to the Munich Security Conference, that was in 2022. Turned out to be about three days before the full scale Russian invasion. Your government, Jamie, the Biden was telling the world all the intelligence. I mean, it was a break with departure, a departure from normally. Right, Jamie.
- [07:02]
Christiane Amanpour
The biggest downgrade of intelligence that I'm familiar with. We were telling the world that this invasion was going to happen. And let's be honest about it, after the fiasco of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, American intelligence didn't have the same power back then. But because we were actually precisely correct on this one, we sort of put that WMD fiasco behind us a little bit. But we were warning the world about what was coming. And we knew Ukraine had a minimal ability to, to, to defend. And that's when my boss, Tony Blinken, Secretary of State, asked him if he needed to, you know, be rescued and, you know, protected. And he said, no, he was going to stay. And that was the beginning of his very powerful leadership of Ukraine.
- [07:50]
Jamie Rubin
When we were still in Munich three days before, I asked him, I said, almost nobody expected you to be here. They expected you to be in your capital, you know, bracing for this invasion. And he said, I had breakfast in Kiev, I'm having lunch here in Munich, and I'm going back to have dinner in Kiev. But he also gave almost a Churchillian speech explaining the stakes not just for Ukraine, but for Europe and for the free world and really appealing for weapons then. It was very, very impressive and very.
- [08:23]
Christiane Amanpour
Important that moment in our history of all the decades we've been working on this stuff is the clearest example of aggression since World War II. I mean, you know, one day Russia woke up and invaded its neighbor with hundreds of thousands of troops. It's like I used to call it the first commandment of international affairs. Thou shalt not invade thy neighbor. And that break with that tradition, a lot of people, you know, spent millions of dollars trying to explain it away or blame NATO or blame Ukraine or. But it was Russian's decision to invade its neighbor that put our world at risk.
- [09:02]
Jamie Rubin
So, going back a little, who was the most? I mean, he's impressive, right? I mean, Zelenskyy's super impressive. Who was the most impressive leader that you met in any form or fashion?
- [09:16]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, you know, Madeleine Albright was a Czech American. She was born in Czechoslovakia, but was an American. And she had a very close relationship with Vachlaw Havel, who was the dissident under communism in prison and written books. He was a playwright and an author. And he was the most. I think he embodied the morality of East European dissidents more than any person I ever met. And he became president of Czechoslovakia, and then the Czech Republic Republic, and Meline and he were very close. So I got a chance to spend time with him. He was a smoker, so I could get away with smoking around him. I always liked that. Same with Lavrov. And he had a very, very powerful way of speaking, very pure and. And powerful English. He was a jazz lover. He was just a brilliant man. And he was the first one to really predict, in a way, that Russia would once again threaten these European countries. Because at that time, Russ, the United States were pretty friendly. Yeltsin and Clinton had a good relationship. But somehow, some way, Vaclav Havel knew that something could still be dangerous from Russia and could happen again. And of course, he was right.
- [10:32]
Jamie Rubin
Was it him who made the first steps to kind of trying to be in NATO? You know, that is the big unresolved issue. Putin says it's because NATO has expanded that I did this. Others say, no, it's not that at all. It would have been anything. Putin just didn't want democracy. Was it Vaclav Havel who started that, you know, appeal to NATO?
- [10:57]
Christiane Amanpour
To NATO enlargement did begin with Czech Republic, Poland and Hungary, and Lech Valencia from Poland was part of that as well. And that's when it all began. NATO enlargement. But this whole idea that the invasion of Ukraine has anything to do with NATO enlargement is complete nonsense. NATO enlargement was taking place. The United States and Russia were working perfectly well together. After 9 11, the expansion of NATO happened. It has nothing to do with it. In fact, the only countries that are at risk from Russian invasions are those countries that are not in NATO, Georgia and now Ukraine. So NATO enlargement is an excuse and it has nothing to do with the reasons for Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Is part of his theory that, you know, Russia's future requires Ukraine to be part of it and Ukraine isn't a separate country. But yeah, Vachlaw Havellens in Poland and Hungary were the first three countries to get into NATO. And Madeleine Albright as a Czech American was, you know, instrumental in starting that process of NATO enlargement under President Clinton. And countries in NATO now like the Baltimore Tick states will tell you that thank God they got into NATO because had they not, they would have faced the risk of Russian attack. And Russia indeed woke up one morning and invaded its neighbor. And there's nothing they can say, nothing they can do that will change that reality. And, and the world knows it. Despite all the, the disinformation and, and propaganda that comes out of Moscow, that simple horror is still going on every day. And we're going to come back to that obviously in the program. But that's the defining issue of think. There's no other way to say it.
- [12:40]
Jamie Rubin
And yet so many people don't believe it. It is an extraordinary, an extraordinary dividing line.
- [12:46]
Christiane Amanpour
All right, so you've been a war correspondent. You've covered a lot of wars. Do you remember your first war?
- [12:52]
Jamie Rubin
I do. You know, I'm a bit cheeky, I like to say, you know, I'm older than J.D. vance and older than Pete Heth, the two, you know, the American Vice President and Defense Secretary who always yammering on about Europeans being wobbly freeloaders. And I've probably been to a lot more war than they have, even though they had military deployments. And I would like to say at the get go that having covered the first Gulf War and 911 and you know, the, the Iraq War, it was Europe and America's allies that went to war for America. And to help America get that Vance and Hegseth, both in the first Gulf War and, and when NATO enacted Article 5 only for the United States for the first time ever in its, in its history after 911 and that misguided war into Iraq that you were talking about in 2003. So let's just say that. But my first war was the first Gulf War, 1990, when Saddam Hussein, I.
- [13:53]
Christiane Amanpour
Thought it was Romania or Georgia.
- [13:56]
Jamie Rubin
Now Georgia was a little civil conflict. I found myself in the middle of a shooting zone when the Soviet Union was collapsing and me and my very small team with the only journalists in Tbilisi, the capital of the Republic of Georgia. Yeah, when that was happening. But that wasn't like a war war, that was a mini war. And it got me into practice.
- [14:19]
Christiane Amanpour
It's your first war zone though, right?
- [14:20]
Jamie Rubin
Well, it was my first war zone, you're absolutely right. But the big, big one was the first Gulf War. And the reason why it was important was it was big and it was huge and it had just about every country in the world. But also it's what defines CNN and, and established CN News organization. Up until then it was, you know, only 10 years old and mostly known inside the United States. And then that was my first story. So it's what put me on a bit of a.
- [14:48]
Christiane Amanpour
And weren't you women in Saudi Arabia, didn't you and your producer and your camera woman were all women and you were breaking some new ground there, if I remember correctly.
- [14:58]
Jamie Rubin
Much, much, much, much new ground. In fact, we were in Saudi Arabia and CNN hadn't realized that Saudi Arabia was not very friendly to women. No equal rights and no women could drive or work or anything back in 1990. And so. But they sent the big guys, the big CNN guys to try to get into Iraq and closer to the war zone. And we went to Saudi Arabia, which was going to be the convening zone, the launching pad. Exactly. And I remember becoming great friends with a reporter called Geraldine Brooks from the Wall Street Journal at the time because she wrote an article in which she quoted Saudis as being horrified by cnn, complete ignorance, to send, you know, a team of women to Saudi Arabia. But it turned out to be fabulous. And not only that, she was also, in the same article, able to expose their hypocrisy because as they were saying that, they were offering her drinks from their drink cabinet. Remember Saudi Arabia, dry Muslim country, but they had the best Johnny Walker, Smirnoff vodka officials. Yeah, all of that kind of stuff. You know, business people, officials. So, yeah, that was my first introduction to the way of the world.
- [16:10]
Christiane Amanpour
But I remember you telling me that the, the idea of you three women. And you've gotten together with them since then, haven't you?
- [16:18]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, I mean, I mean, a lot, a lot, a lot. And also I'm a big supporter of women in the field. I mean, I might have been one of the most prominent in front of the camera at that time. The other one was a British journalist, Kate Ady from the BBC, who made her name really in Tiananmen Square several years earlier and other places. But she really was the trailblazer for women in sort of our gener, you know. And then I guess I did it for the American. For the American side. But there's so many others now.
- [16:48]
Christiane Amanpour
But what I remember about those times was before we were married, that you sort of had this ability because CNN was defining global news. You had this satellite truck that would follow you when you went to Haiti, when you went to Somalia, when you went wherever you went. Suddenly that was the news the world had to pay attention to for the first time. That that technology combined with your work created an immediacy that was brand new back in those days.
- [17:18]
Jamie Rubin
Absolutely. And very impactful. People used to call it the CNN factor. It doesn't effect. CNN effect. Exactly. It doesn't really exist anymore because everything has overtaken it. But it was the first. And one little funny thing. I got some letter. Our Pentagon correspondent, whose name I can't remember from 35 years ago, sent a little facts to us in Saudi Arabia in our news, you know, news Hub in the hotel in Saudi Arabia, saying. Showing how the soldiers had been plotting where I was going because they thought that they were going to be deployed. Wherever it was that CNN was, they were suing.
- [18:01]
Christiane Amanpour
They were following you. Yes.
- [18:02]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, yeah, it was really funny. Anyway, it was sweet. I don't know whether it's even true or factual, but it was a thing at that time. There's been one or two issues. Let's just take Rwanda and the genocide of 1994. I thought the US government behaved appallingly. You were in government. Madeline was your boss at that time. You were at the UN And I also thought we journalists behaved appallingly in en masse. There were exceptions, really fabulous exceptions who went and exposed what was going on. But in general, the US Sat it out and we journalists didn't cover it as much as we should because a lot of journalists were covering the good news story in South Africa, which was the election of Nelson Mandela, the first ever black president. I just wonder if you have any regrets.
- [18:54]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, Rwanda is a pretty tragic tale from everybody's perspective. Nobody really paid attention to Rwanda in retrospect. Look, I hated that issue as a spokesman because, you know, there was a certain phoniness to the issue. There were. Nobody was prepared to do anything. And the reason why no one was prepared to do anything is the last time the United States had gotten involved in Africa was Somalia, and it had gone very, very badly. There have been many movies done about Mogadishu and the Black Hawk down. And it was a tragic time for the United States, saw Africa as a place where nothing good was going to come from military deployments. So that whole idea of deploy forces to Africa was just off the table. Yet at the un, a lot of countries wanted to pressure the United States and other European countries into doing something. So they were pushing for a resolution to be passed so that the pressure would build to deploy. But there was nobody willing to deploy. No European countries, no Canadians, no nobody. There was some on the ground who were trying to pull out, but we. The United.
- [20:06]
Jamie Rubin
The Canadians were there and they got harmed. And General Delair was there. He stands as the moral arbiter of what went wrong then. I mean, he. He was a Canadian in charge of their small deployment. He was begging for people to come and reinforce telegrams, telegraphing what was going to happen. Mass slaughter. And nobody, not the United States, not Britain, not France, not nobody, did anything about it. And to this day, I see a terrible darkness whenever I think of Rwanda. Terrible. It's a tragedy on all. On all our hearts and our heads.
- [20:44]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. And I had to go out and tell journalists why we would oppose a resolution to send in forces. We couldn't vote for a resolution because we knew there was no troops to deploy. But some of the other countries thought it was easy to just vote for the resolution, knowing there was. It would never be implemented. That's what the phoniness of government sometimes. So I remember the New Zealand ambassador, and New Zealand wasn't going to send any troops, but they wanted to force the vote so that everyone would be heard and be counted. And we had to veto it. And Madeleine got in the biggest fight she ever got in with. She was screaming down the phone line because she didn't want to veto it because it would look like somehow the United States is the reason why this troops aren't sent, when the truth was it was a collective failure by everybody. But some of the smaller countries, you know, were trying to pressure the bigger countries to do something by putting this resolution forward. And I had to explain why we were going to veto it. And believe me, it was miserable.
- [21:42]
Jamie Rubin
A million people were killed in three months by machetes and clubs. It was really primitive instruments, and it was a terrible thing. And to this day, President Clinton apologizes. The late Kofi Annan, who was Secretary General at the UN after being head of peacekeeping forces, he apologizes. And I think, yes, Anybody who was involved in that will never wipe that stain. Shall we take a break? And then when we come back, we will talk about being married and doing these stories and why at that time our marriage was somewhat controversial, but it might not have even been possible to continue our work in today's world. Welcome back to the first bonus episode. Christiane Amanpour presents the X Files. Jamie, it's your turn to ask the next question.
- [22:45]
Christiane Amanpour
All right, well, let's talk about us, this controversial marriage. You know, when we first got married, it was controversial. I believe the New York Times wrote a front page story and it said that they concluded after they sat down and judged it that it was awkward but not improper. Did you remember that?
- [23:05]
Jamie Rubin
And I don't remember that actually. But I tell you, given that was, you know, the oracle declared that it was awkward but not improper, then our bosses, both mine at CNN and I guess yours in the government figured, oh, phew, we dodged that bullet. I don't know whether we could get away with it today. What do you think? I mean, social media, everybody's got an opinion. I mean, you know, you can either sit out social media and brazen it out, which I do, basically.
- [23:32]
Christiane Amanpour
I don't think we could get away with it today. I think, look, I worked for Bill Clinton and Madeleine Albright directly. They trusted me to talk to journalists and that's how I dealt with us being married. That was part of my job to know what I could say, what I couldn't say.
- [23:47]
Jamie Rubin
Because you were a spokesperson. Correct. Whole job was to interact with the press. Right.
- [23:52]
Christiane Amanpour
But the partisan nature of current America is so divided and so brutal that CNN or the government could, one or the other would capitulate. CNN would be afraid they would be accused of being part of the administration or the administration would be accused of sucking up to cnn and one of them would cave. Because the pressures, I think are 100 times stronger today on the individual details of which journalist goes where, what they say, who does what, every little detail about the individuals that used to just do their jobs and it wasn't about them, it was about their job is now discussed endlessly in social media. And I don't think the leaders of CNN or the leaders of a modern American government could stand up to it.
- [24:42]
Jamie Rubin
I used to sort of figure that we weren't even really living together most of that time because you were still spokesperson in Washington at the State Department and I was chief international correspondent out in the field still when we first started, when we first got married. And I used to say Excuse me. I hold these guys to account. What do you mean? I'm not in the tank? You know, I'm the one who's giving them a hard time. So that was my defense. But you're right. I think it would have been. Would have been, you know, a lot more difficult today.
- [25:14]
Christiane Amanpour
That reminds me of one time that it was glorious. So. So I believe one of the most successful things the US Government has ever done in this field is the prevention of a genocide in the little place called Kosovo. And a million people were at risk. We had every reason to believe the Serbs were going to do to the Kosovo what they did in Bosnia, and the Clinton administration stopped it. And when the Serbs capitulated and gave up, we were actually. This was the one time when our marriage was sort of unique. I remember staying in a hotel in Macedonia with you, and I would get up in the morning and go on a helicopter because Madeleine Albright had assigned me this diplomatic task to get the Kosovo Liberation army, this small, ragtag group of, you know, basically guerrilla fighters, to give up their weapons now that the war was over. And the British Special Air Services, the sas, flew me every morning into the mountains in Kosovo, and I negotiated this disarmament agreement by them, which was pretty unique. Meanwhile, you and I were able to live in the hotel room for those days, and you were going out every day covering the return of the refugees from Albania and Macedonia into Kosovo. And then we'd come back home at night and. And be able to be married and together, and they would get up in the morning, each doing our own jobs that were not conflicted, but each was at a special moment in history where something really good happened, where a million people returned to their homes after being exiled by Serbian military forces. A genocide was prevented. I was able to help end it diplomatically, and you were able to cover this. Face it, a success. Compared to all the subsequent military operations, Kosovo was a success. Very few casualties, and a genocide was prevented. And that was one time where our marriage didn't conflict because you had. You were covering the refugee return. I was doing something diplomatically, and we were able to live in this hotel in Skopje, Macedonia. I don't know if you remember it, but I do.
- [27:31]
Jamie Rubin
You know what? I don't actually remember the shared hotel room at that time, funnily enough. I don't know. Maybe I've blocked it since the divorce. I have not. No idea what I remember. What I remember is that moment having spent so much time looking into a camera with these, what they called HMI lights. Or whatever. Whatever they are. And they didn't. Yeah. And they didn't have the proper screen and they burnt my eyeballs and I was. Couldn't see in any way. It was a catastrophe for one day. And then I got. I got better again and it was fine. But, you know, it's true that that was a success, but I hate to rain on your parade. I'm the one who, you know, really got under the skin of your bosses over Bosnia because I think you guys jumped into action to prevent in Kosovo what kind of. You had allowed to happen in Bosnia for all those years. And a genocide did happen. And, you know, America didn't come to the rescue along with the other allies until. Until Srebrenica. Until the massacre in Srebrenica. And then you all decided to get serious and then it, you know, but.
- [28:38]
Christiane Amanpour
That'S what government is like. I worked for a woman, Madeleine Albright at the time, who was then UN Ambassador. And we were advocating from the beginning doing something in Bosnia from the beginning of the Clinton administration. Remember, the massacres began under the Bush administration in 1992, and then Clinton came.
- [28:56]
Jamie Rubin
In and continued through the Clinton administration.
- [28:58]
Christiane Amanpour
That's true. But Madeleine Albright was fighting internally to try to convince them to do something. And I was working for her, and I was proud of that, that we tried. We did our best. And eventually the rest of the team, including the President, agreed that it was time to act. It was later. It was two years later, and that's a fact. You're correct. But at least when she became Secretary of State, she didn't let it happen that way again. When the next.
- [29:26]
Jamie Rubin
Okay, okay, I need this story now. I know this story, but. But it is the funniest story I have ever heard, and I think you should share it. When Madeleine Albright became Secretary of State, she said to her assembled, all guys, cabinet members.
- [29:41]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. Well, she told me the following story. Early on in the second administration of Bill Clinton, the Kosovo issue was coming to a head and we saw what was going to happen. And so there was a meeting of. Small meeting that was outside the normal channels. It wasn't in the Situation Room with several senior officials and Madeleine Albright. And the issue was, would we threaten to use military force against the Serbs in Kosovo? And Madeleine was insisting that we do that. And the argument was very intense. And Sandy Berger, the National Security Advisor, exploded at some point and said, what is it with you people at the State Department always wanting to bomb somebody? Like it's. You want to have some kind of orgasm so this is. Imagine there's a one woman, several guys. It's very awkward, dead silence. This is the way she told me the story. And she said, well, Sandy, you know, that's the kind of thing that your predecessor used to say to me during the first administration to shut me up. But I'm now secretary of state. I'm not going to be shut up. And besides, I can't even remember what an orgasm is. That floored the men. And in the end, we did threaten to use force in Kosovo. And when Milosevic broke the agreement, we went in and we prevented a genocide. And that was partly it was the president's decision, but it was. She played the leading role on that.
- [31:13]
Jamie Rubin
She was an amazing woman and an amazing diplomat. She really was unbelievable. Thank you for listening to the bonus episode of Christian Amanpour Present Events the X Files these episodes are really exciting for us because we'll be answering your questions every week. Jamie and I have been on the ground and in government during wars, elections, protests, summits, you name it. We've seen how global events unfold up close, and we've got the stories to prove it. If there's a news story that's got you asking questions, maybe something that you think is being overlooked, or you just want to know what it's really like behind the scenes, please, please do reach out. We'll bring our experience to your questions and maybe even share a few stories we couldn't have shared before. So please get in touch via email. The address is amanpurpodlobal.com or via social media. Our handle is Manpurpod, and we'll answer your questions on the next bonus episode. Don't miss our next episode, which will be on Tuesday. Listen to Christian presents the X Files on Global Player. You can download it on the App Store or go to globalplayer. Com.
- [32:30]
Christiane Amanpour
This is a Global Player original podcast.