Podcast Summary

Podcast: Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Episode: Esther Perel: Why the World is More Divided Than Ever
Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Christiane Amanpour
Guest: Esther Perel

Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Christiane Amanpour sits down with renowned couples therapist and podcaster Esther Perel to unravel why the world feels more divided than ever. The conversation journeys from the personal—navigating post-divorce relationships and family dynamics—to the geopolitical, tackling how individuals, communities, and world leaders can build bridges in times of intense conflict. Drawing on personal experience, therapy insights, and global case studies, Amanpour and Perel explore the essential work of connection, empathy, and community in an age of polarization, loneliness, and technological upheaval.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis and Purpose of “The Ex Files”

• Modeling Dialogue Beyond Differences

  • Amanpour explains the origin of the podcast with her ex-husband, Jamie Rubin, aiming to model civil conversation across divides, drawing parallels to conflict situations she’s reported on.
  • “Maybe that’s some kind of modeling…having been able to come through that and then talk to each other about other things like these events.” (03:05)

• Esther Perel’s Perspective on Evolving Relationships

  • Perel appreciates the nuance:
  • “We have this notion that a marriage is either on or off…Why not continue to collaborate?” (02:15)

2. Lessons from Global Peacemaking

• Talking With Your ‘Enemy’ Is Essential
  • Perel recounts peace leaders’ advice:
  • “You actually need to talk with the very person or party that wants to kill you…Otherwise you will never get there.” (05:27)
• Building Common Ground Through Shared Experience
  • The Oslo Accords and Good Friday Agreement considered: starting from human commonality—sharing meals and stories—before tackling disagreements.
  • Perel: “In distressed relationships, people will always overemphasize the negative, the differences…they will underrepresent what they actually share.” (07:25)

3. The Power of Grief and Shared Humanity

• Grief as a Doorway
  • Amanpour reflects on interviews with Israelis and Palestinians who've lost children, underlining the “common humanity” revealed in grief. (09:26)
  • Perel:
    • “Grief is loss, but grief is also love. You grieve people that you loved…When you come together around grief, you come together around your experience of having loved.” (10:50)

4. Building the Modern Village and Community

• Perel’s New Project: ‘Entre Nous’
  • Focuses on re-establishing community amid technological fragmentation and loneliness.
  • “We're talking more and more with generative AIs…and we are basically for…Every time I turn to my AI…very sycophantic and tells me how my questions are so smart…” (12:19)
• The Erosion of Intergenerational Ties
  • Amanpour and Perel discuss the expectation in Western societies to “leave home” as a mark of success, contrasting with cultures valuing proximity.
  • Perel: “Many people actually want to leave traditional villages often, but villages that bring what is called apart and together and essentially are intergenerational.” (13:59)

5. Migration, Belonging, and the Professionalization of Help

• Migration Personal Stories
  • Both share immigrant experiences:
  • Perel notes cultural shifts—“In the US, you professionalize help. If you need something, pay for it, rather than ask friends.”* (15:40)
  • Amanpour describes rebuilding community after the Iranian Revolution, often having to prove she wasn't a “suspect” because of her background. (18:14)
  • Discussion of accent privilege and subtle social hierarchy in the US. (20:02)

6. Loneliness, Disconnection, and the Art of Gathering

• Diminishing Social Gatherings
  • Perel: “74% of food cooked in US restaurants is eaten off premises…People are not having parties.” (21:12)
  • Urges a return to hosting and initiating: “Everybody thinks that everybody else has an interesting life but them…just reach out.” (21:22)
• Agency in Connection
  • Perel: “When we regain some of that sense of agency and power, we will have a better situation.” (22:40)

7. Handling Political Divides—Especially Within Families

• Polarization at Holiday Tables
  • Amanpour highlights the challenge: “In America, you’re either pro-Trump or anti-Trump…pro-Israel or pro-Palestine…” (23:10)
  • Perel encourages curiosity over confrontation:
    • “I think that it is an attitude that a lot of us can take…an opportunity for them to listen. Listen to the diversity that exists inside your family.” (23:31)
    • Suggests reframing: “Who do I want to be in the context of this gathering?”

8. The Card Game as Social Technology

• Facilitating Vulnerability and Connection
  • Amanpour recalls a dinner where Perel’s “Where Should We Begin?” card game prompted deep, unexpected revelations:
    • “None of us had ever met before…and we were all so ready, willing and able to speak out loud…It was amazing.” (27:37)
  • Perel on storytelling:
    • “Stories are bridges for connection…you don’t remember what you ate, but you do remember the stories you heard.” (28:46)

9. The Impact of Technology on Human Interaction

• Social Atrophy and “Ambiguous Loss”
  • Perel: “I see an incremental social atrophy…A stranger is a danger. You do not just reach out and start talking to people.” (30:50)
  • Explains “ambiguous loss”:
    • “They are physically present, but…emotionally absent. Or vice versa. And this is what’s happening in many social interactions.” (31:51)
  • Amanpour laments the isolating effect of headphones and devices:
    • “Airpods and full headgear…says, don’t talk to me, don’t look at me…It’s sad.” (33:35)

10. Restoring Human Values & Empathy

• Re-centering Responsibility and Accountability
  • Perel asserts the power and risk of apologizing and taking responsibility:
    • “Whoever apologizes first or takes responsibility first…has the power, but in fact it’s perceived as being the weaker.” (40:19)
  • On extending these skills to world leaders:
    • “I know the questions that really make a difference…a risk I took that changed my life…an apology I owe…” (39:08)

11. Recommendations

• Books, Films, and Theatre
  • Perel recommends:
    • "Outline" by Rachel Cusk (41:46)
    • Play: “Lacrima” by Caroline Nguyen (42:06)
    • Movie: “Misericorde” by Alain Giraudie (42:35)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the necessity of contact in conflict resolution:
  • “You actually need to talk with the very person or party that wants to kill you.” — Esther Perel (05:27)
• On the experience of shared loss:
  • “Grief is loss, but grief is also love…You grieve people that you loved.” — Esther Perel (10:50)
• On hosting and agency:
  • “Everybody thinks that everybody else has an interesting life but them…if you reach out…it may feel vulnerable, but in fact, everyone is waiting for someone to send them that message.” — Esther Perel (21:22)
• On stories as connection:
  • “Stories are bridges for connection…You don’t remember what you ate, but you do remember the stories you heard.” — Esther Perel (28:46)
• On ambiguous loss in modern life:
  • “Ambiguous loss…They are physically present, but psychologically and emotionally absent. Or…physically gone, but emotionally present.” — Esther Perel (31:51)
• On accountability and apologies:
  • “Whoever apologizes first…has the power, but in fact it’s perceived as being the weaker.” — Esther Perel (40:19)
• On defending rigidity:
  • “If people are attacked and dismissed…you push them to become more emboldened in their rigidity because they feel threatened, and it really doesn’t solve world conflicts.” — Esther Perel (37:41)

Important Timestamps

• [03:05] Amanpour describes the podcast’s origin as modeling civility post-divorce
• [05:27] Perel recounts peacemaking wisdom: “Talk with your enemy”
• [07:25] Perel on the overemphasis of difference in distressed relationships
• [10:50] Power of grief as shared experience
• [12:19] Perel on technology, AI, and the erosion of human reciprocity
• [14:48] Discussion on intergenerational ties and Western independence norms
• [18:14] Amanpour’s experience as an Iranian émigré in the US
• [21:12] Perel cites 74% of food being eaten outside gatherings; the loneliness epidemic
• [23:31] Navigating holiday and family political divides
• [27:37] Amanpour on the card game dinner and human vulnerability
• [30:50] Perel on technology, social atrophy, ambiguous loss
• [33:35] Amanpour on headphones and disconnection
• [39:08] Perel on empathy, accountability, and transformative questions
• [41:46] Perel’s reading and viewing recommendations

Tone & Style Notes

• Conversation is lively, incisive, and genuinely candid.
• Perel brings humor and warmth to even the heaviest topics.
• Amanpour balances personal anecdote with her signature probing, global perspective.
• Frequent call-backs to shared human experience, active listening, and the vital need for empathy—at home and on the world stage.

This episode stands as a powerful meditation on the fragile art of connection—how it is broken, how it is repaired, and how, even now, it can bridge the chasm between “us” and “them.”