← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Fresh back from Harvard: What’s really happening with Trump’s crackdown
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- [00:03]
Christiane Amanpour
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:06]
Jamie Rubin
Last week I went to Harvard. I had been asked several months ago to give the graduation speech for the Kennedy School of Government. And of course, I was really thrilled and honored. But it was before Donald Trump and the administration had gone all out against Harvard. And I felt like I was going into the belly of the beast, you know, Trump's preeminent, most prominent target in the current culture wars. Welcome. Christiane Amanpour presents the X Files with Jamie Rubin. I am a longtime correspondent and anchor for cnn.
- [00:42]
Christiane Amanpour
I'm a two time senior diplomat at the State Department under Presidents Biden and President Clinton.
- [00:48]
Jamie Rubin
I know we've both got to get our lines in, as awkward as it sounds, but we need to tell people why we're doing this. So we happen to have been married, we're now divorced, hence the X Files. And I said at the beginning, you know, desperate times calls for desperate measures. If we could talk about some of these inquiries, incredible, tricky, polarizing issues, then hopefully others can. Because what's happened is that there is no room for rational discussion and an attempt to reach solution. Hey, Jamie, I'm in Paris this week. Where are you?
- [01:24]
Christiane Amanpour
I'm in Carmela's kitchen behind me.
- [01:27]
Jamie Rubin
Carmela's kitchen in Long Island. So listen, I went to the phenomenally redone Notre Dame Cathedral that you remember burnt several years ago. And even Trump was invited, even before he took the oath of office to come in December to reopen with Macron and the rest of the world leaders. And I was really struck by the sense of history, by the sense of so much, including that in the 13th century when this was built, might did make right around the world. That's what it was all about. Wars and territories, religious, cultural, political, land grabs. But now I just think it's right, has to make right. And there was such an energy in that church. It was just so incredible. And it just made me think not just of spirituality, but of principles, human rights, you know, democratic institutions. I don't know. Do you think I'm crazy?
- [02:22]
Christiane Amanpour
No. There was an article recently by our now favorite columnist, David Brooks, who was criticizing J.D. vance and some others for saying that soldiers don't fight for principles, they only fight for their buddies. Of course they do fight for their buddies, but they do fight for principles like right makes right, not might makes right. And unfortunately, you're right. Trump would like a world where might makes right. And so would China's President Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin. That's the problem in our world today.
- [02:52]
Jamie Rubin
David Brooks is the More conservative, if you want to color him politically. But he is. He's the conservative columnist, one of them for the New York Times. And I also was, you know, really interested in that because being a Catholic, I know you're Jewish, I'm Catholic. But there's just so much of this at stake right now. So the first part of our conversation this week is actually gonna be about Harvard. Why? Because it's ground zero in President Trump's waging his culture wars. And here's the latest from Trump on their attempt to ban all foreign students, and especially from Harvard.
- [03:27]
Christiane Amanpour
Harvard has to show us their lists. About 31% of their students are foreign based. Almost 31%. We want to know where those students come. Are they troublemakers? They're taking people from areas of the world that are very radicalized. And we don't want them making trouble in our country. We have people want to go to Harvard and other schools. They can't get in because we have foreign students there. But I want to make sure that the foreign students are people that can love our country. We don't want to see shopping centers exploding. We don't want to see the kind of riots that you had.
- [03:58]
Jamie Rubin
Ok, so that was Trump just recently, obviously wanting a massive drop off in foreign students. He had already been targeting Harvard with and other universities by cutting funding hundreds of millions. Actually, Harvard, $2.2 billion is at stake, and a lot of it has been just, you know, wiped off the ledger. And this is part of his attack, specifically on Harvard, but on higher education, and particularly the elite universities in general. Jamie, what do you make of what Trump just said?
- [04:30]
Christiane Amanpour
I think it's the guts of the culture war. As you said. At one level, there is a legitimate concern about Chinese scoop up American information. The FBI has been on this case for a long, long time. China has been stealing information through academic exchanges for decades. And that fact that China is our rival makes it important to scrutinize Chinese students. But what Trump is admitting there is that there's a deeper reason. It's a war on the elites, arguing that American students aren't getting places at Harvard because elites are taking up all the places for the American students, and the additional spots are going to elites from China or Russia or any other part of the world. And so it's a war of every man in Trump's mind against the elites. And that's why it's a culture war.
- [05:24]
Jamie Rubin
And, you know, you say China, but it's every nationality from everywhere. And I have to tell you, when I went to Harvard to give this speech. And it was just a few days ago last week. I must say I was afraid. I'm a foreigner, I don't have a green card, I'm not an American citizen, I'm fairly prominent. And I literally prepared to go to America as if I was going to North Korea. I took a burner phone, Jamie. Imagine that. I didn't take a single, not my mobile phone, not my iPad, nothing. And I had nothing on the burner phone except a few numbers and I could text with my assistant. I had your number, I had our son's number, I had our lawyer's number, you know, the CNN lawyer. And I was really afraid I'd even talked to the CNN security person because of this. I've heard that many, including British citizens, have been stopped at the border and questioned for hours and hours and hours. And I know that a lot of them, from anecdotal discussions with my friends have been turned around. Even parents who are coming to various universities for their kids graduations, whether they're from any part of the world, was scary. Luckily, Jamie, I was welcomed. I mean, the immigration officer at Boston where I came in could not have been nicer. Obviously none of this was discussed. Thank me for what I do, bringing the stories of the world to, you know, to, to America and to, and to viewers and listeners, etc. So huge sigh of relief I breathed. But wow, I mean, can you imagine if I'm afraid, what do others think?
- [07:02]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, look, this has been going on a long time. You may remember that one time we were coming into the States together and the immigration officer you were pregnant with, Darius, suddenly started scrutinizing you and saying, why are you coming here pregnant? Are you trying to have your child in the United States so he becomes a citizen? And I was an American government official or recently resigned government official. And I was outraged. And eventually we got to a higher level authority and that was embarrassed at the behavior of that officer. And so it shows you that was 30 years ago now with Donald Trump's basically weaponization of the Immigration and Naturalization Service to scrutinize people. To imagine that every single non American is a threat to the United States is a war on what our country has been since its founding. We are a nation of immigrants. We grew out of immigration. We are supposed to believe in that. We're also supposed to be a nation that wants the smartest, brightest minds in the world to come to our country because most of them stay in our country after they get degrees and make us stronger. So I find it appalling. But I'd love to hear what your experience was at Harvard, where it is ground zero. And thank God for Harvard has the endowment and the smarts and the willingness to stand up to this real oppression on the part of the administration.
- [08:37]
Jamie Rubin
Well, listen, not only, as you say, foreign students are being discouraged, and even foreign scientists is looking to go elsewhere rather than take up positions in research labs. You know, in the. In the US if you look at all sorts of stories coming out of India and the rest. But also, I mean, I've been talking to Harvard researchers because this isn't just about education. This is about America's leading role in health and research. Science, scientific research and results. And, you know, a doctor, Harvard doctor, told me that this is really setting people back. It's really harming patients, and it's causing them to want to look elsewhere potentially. And, you know, here in France, where I am, in the UK elsewhere in Europe, they're rolling out the red carpet for America's best and the brightest. So, Jamie, again, about the students. When I was there, one of the administrators at Harvard said to me that literally that on the eve of the speech that I was giving, they had been. I mean, just. They couldn't believe it. They had been told about a consular email that had gone out from Secretary of State Rubio to all the American embassies and consular services around the world, telling them that any student applying for a student visa in the United States to any university had to be scrutinized on every level, including their social media feeds. I mean, first of all, is there the staff to do that? And secondly, Jamie, I mean, what does that mean? Where's the bar? Who judges?
- [10:11]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, here's the bar I'm gonna read now from a cable that Secretary Rubio sent out. I find this stunning. I worked in the State Department for many, many, many years. I worked at the Foreign Relations Committee, overseeing the State Department as an oversight committee. I've never seen anything like this. This is a cable from Secretary Rubio to every post in the world addressed directly to anyone coming to the United States to address acute concerns of violence and antisemitism at Harvard University. This cable instructs post to immediately begin additional vetting of any visa applicant seeking to travel to Harvard University for any purpose. So this is a direct attack on Harvard.
- [10:56]
Jamie Rubin
You're telling me that basically what you're reading, they're focusing in now from that general ban or surveillance to really focusing on Harvard again?
- [11:06]
Christiane Amanpour
Exactly. And I just find it stunning. Normally, when you make a policy and you adjust your policy. You apply it evenly across all universities. You say university students need to be examined X, Y and Z. But here, this is directed only at Harvard from the Secretary of State. And this is mind boggling, what I'm about to read to you. So when they examine these applicants, they look for the normal things. What are they doing, what are their letters? Do they have a real job? Are they going to school, whatever. Consular officers should consider whether the lack of, of any online presence or having social media accounts restricted to private or with limited visibility may be reflective of evasiveness and call into question the applicant's credibility. Think what that means. Someone who doesn't post on social media, someone who has a private life, who wants to come to the United States to study for a perfectly legitimate purpose or visit their brother who's studying at Harvard. And they don't have a big social media presence. This cable is telling the visa officer to give extra special scrutiny to that person for the lack of a social media presence. And you know what it reminds me of when I was in the government, I was appalled that in the Xinjiang region of China where the Uyghurs are, they have such an.
- [12:32]
Jamie Rubin
That's the Muslim minority, right?
- [12:34]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. All purpose surveillance of these people. And they created something called the social credit score. So they used the person's phone to examine every move they made, whether they made jaywalking, whether they listened to this music or studied communist propaganda or didn't. And they gave them a score. And if they didn't score high enough, they couldn't get social services. Their mother couldn't get an extra kidney if her kidney failed. That's China, okay? And the thing that struck me about this cable is in Xinjiang, if you turn your phone off, they Chinese surveillance system perks up and says, oh, my God, this person isn't online. The police come to their door, knock on the door and say, why is your phone off? If anything was an image to me of 1984, George Orwell's 1984, it was that when you turn your phone off, the police knock at your door. That's the logic of Chinese surveillance being applied by an administration going way out of line and far beyond anything I thought would be possible by my government in my lifetime to scrutinize immigrants. And it shows you how low they will go to go after Harvard.
- [13:47]
Jamie Rubin
Wow, that is new and news and really troubling. But can I ask you this then? Because part of this is, or at least it started by being an attempt to Corral to prevent antisemitism. Right. Starting from those, I guess, starting from the protests on campus a year or so ago. You know, Jamie, even the Hillel group on, on Harvard campus, and you know, all universities in the US Have a Hillel, so Hillel House, Uri, where I was at university, had it. It's the Jewish community. It's not a fraternity, but it's the Jewish community.
- [14:25]
Christiane Amanpour
Sort of like that.
- [14:26]
Jamie Rubin
Sort of like that. And they came out at Harvard and they said, look, while we want to combat anti Semitism, obviously we cannot see our fellow citizens banned or any citizens, including Israeli citizens, banned from coming to study here. And other Jewish groups have said that, and they call it a cynical attempt to combat antisemitism using these methods. So people are quite worried, including American Jews, at least some, about the crackdown and some of the arrests and, and detentions without charge of students. So, Jamie, how much is the anti Semitism the reason now? And how much is the Trump culture war and the war on elites?
- [15:11]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, I think it's both. Look, in the beginning, Harvard had a problem that after October 7th, innocent men, women and children slaughtered in barbaric ways. That was conducted by Hamas on October 7th and then followed by a Hezbollah attack on the North. All right, in the immediate days after that, 30 student groups at Harvard got together and very quickly put out a statement or a message blaming the Israelis for the October 7th attack. And whatever you think about Israeli policy over the years, and I have had my criticisms, and most people have, it doesn't justify mass murder. It reminded me of how people blamed the United states for the 911 attacks. That's not the way to think about it. So these Harvard student groups were the first out of the box. And it became perceived that they represented Harvard even though they didn't. But because they made this outrageous statement and then the protests were followed with sometimes outrageous behavior, they became associated with the most extreme version of critique of the Israeli government. My point is there were things to be concerned about at Harvard. There was this October 7th event and general behavior, where, as someone put it, the only group in Harvard that wasn't protected by minority protections were Jewish students. That was when wokeness went too far. And I agreed that that ought to be debated. But to take this approach to it is like taking a sledgehammer on an ant. We have a problem. Harvard needs to deal with it. But you don't ruin our country's reputation, perhaps for decades by making it no longer a place where people aspire to go to, to study and to join in a country that was a nation of immigrants and they are ru our reputation and doing untold damage to our ability to be the beacon of freedom and hope in the world that we were for my whole life. So there's some issues that are legitimate to talk about, but to approach it this way is mind bogglingly stupid and frankly makes me ashamed.
- [17:17]
Jamie Rubin
So next we're going to look at sometimes what can be the backlash to this essential crackdown. Sometimes you can crack down on the wrong people. And also how does it essentially stand America up to keep its preeminent role as the world's finest research, development, health, medicine, all of that that people flock to the US to learn about and to work in. That's when we come back. Hey Jamie, we're back. Look, a little bit of disagreement on, on, on why this is happening. I think the Trumpies have swerved away from the legitimate issues they needed to deal with. And by the way, you know, I come from a Muslim country, I'm not Muslim, but there's been a massive, massive rise in Islamophobia. There was after 9, 11. I don't recall any such defense and I'm sorry to say I'm not doing apples and oranges or both siderism or whatever, but people will say that hey, you know what' really all about. So. But let's take it at face value that there needs to be a combat of all hate speech, including anti Semitism and that's just not okay to have anywhere. But what about the backlash, let's say against Chinese scientists? There was this incredible story as a sort of an example that was written about this week. I can't remember when it was, but in the 50s or something around the 50s, right. There was this unbelievable scientist Chinese who wanted to come to the U.S. pick it up, Jamie, because it's such a great story.
- [18:57]
Christiane Amanpour
It's an incredible story. He worked in the United States. He was part of a team at the laboratories building our first missile systems. And he was part of a prominent team and he was contributing greatly to America's power in the world during the Cold War when we were combating global communism, Russia and China. But he was a Chinese student. But he became an American and worked for America and tried to promote American values and became a prominent scientist. At some point some FBI guy got it in his head that he might be a spy and they put him in prison claiming that he was a communist spy. So what happened? The Chinese wanted this guy back. He was a brilliant man and the Chinese traded him For a series of people in China that were being held Americans, they got their scientists back. And what did he do? He allowed China to leapfrog into the modern era and develop a missile system that could attack the United States with nuclear weapons. So here we have a classic case where an American, Chinese, American is making America great, as Donald Trump likes to say. And what happens? The FBI overdoes it. They go too far. They think he's guilty of crimes that he didn't commit, and they turn him against the United States and then he joins the elite in the, in Communist China. And Deng Xiaoping and Mao were thrilled that this guy was now going to help China become a threat to the United States. Concrete evidence that he allowed them to build their missile system decades earlier than they might have otherwise.
- [20:36]
Jamie Rubin
So this was what, in the 50s, right?
- [20:38]
Christiane Amanpour
Correct. And I might have been the 60s. I can't remember the exact date, but the height of the Red scare during the McCarthy era, when people were fearing there's a red under your bed and they went too far. And this is what happens when you weaponize a bureaucracy without careful oversight to make sure that there are special cases for special people who might bring enormous value to us and might give enormous value to the Chinese or the Russians. I bet there are students now who will not come to the United States, will choose to stay in China. And one of them may invent some great weapon, some great AI tool to organize, you know, computer based attacks on the United States, because we're going too far. But Donald Trump and his administration are cracking down on the freedoms that we've come to know, come to respect and that serve us well and have proven to serve us well.
- [21:37]
Jamie Rubin
Jamie, can I just. I mean, you're obviously obsessed by China. I mean, you talk a lot about China, Chinese students, there's students from all over the world, you know, but you are pretty obsessed by China. Just a quickie. Your administration, the Clinton administration, back in the 90s, before I even knew you, there was this Chinese scientist called Wen.
- [21:56]
Christiane Amanpour
Just barely, there was a scientist called.
- [21:59]
Jamie Rubin
Wen Ho Lee and he was gobbled up by the FBI, his whole reputation shattered and shredded. I don't know, accused of being, I don't know, an industrial spy or some kind of spy or whatever, a national security threat. And then it turned out to be what? Quite a lot of nothing.
- [22:14]
Christiane Amanpour
A false prosecution. A false prosecution. And didn't you tell me that you once appeared on a graduation ceremony or an event with him, he and I.
- [22:23]
Jamie Rubin
And Richard Holbrook, who was then the special envoy for the Balkans and ended up being a UN ambassador. Now the late Richard Holbrooke and at the time, this phenomenal American woman, Pamela Harriman, who had been Churchill's daughter in law, was ambassador for the United States in France. And we all ended up on the stage at the American University in Paris getting honorary degrees. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I was listening to Wen Ho Lee's acceptance speech and I'm thinking, what happened.
- [22:51]
Christiane Amanpour
This travesty of that was in an administration that didn't have an overwhelming obsessive fear of foreign students, foreign immigrants. They weren't trying to remake America's role as a nation of immigrants to a nation of re migration. Secretary Rubio has created a bureau in the State Department called the Bureau of Remigration to get immigrants out of the United States. I've never heard of such a thing. Of course we need good border controls. Of course illegal immigrants need to be dealt with. But 180 degrees from a nation of immigrants, this Statue of Liberty where my grandparents came through this country to turn it into a place where we're so fearful, so obsessed, so wrongheaded that we turn our government into a weaponized form of getting people out of the country and thus ruin.
- [23:42]
Jamie Rubin
Do they really call it re migration.
- [23:45]
Christiane Amanpour
Re migration, getting these people out of the United States?
- [23:48]
Jamie Rubin
Next we're going to talk about the Middle east because there seems to be a tipping point is quickly being reached in terms of the anger and the, and the discomfort about the way Israel's war is being waged on Gaza, including from inside Israel. Okay, Jamie, everybody, we're back and we're going to talk again about the Middle east because A, it's linked to the whole business about the crackdown on American universities and the anti Semitism issue. But B, what's happened over the last several days and frankly weeks, but most especially in the last few days appears to be a tipping point of anger and disbelief by America, by Israel's allies. I don't know about America, but Israel's allies in Europe and even former Israeli leading officials are now beginning to say, hang on a second, I'm not sugarcoating this. The former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Omert said, yes, Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza. So this is huge. But let me first put how some of Israel's allies are looking at. Here is President Macron on what's happening in Gaza.
- [25:04]
Christiane Amanpour
If we abandon Gaza, if we consider there is a free path for Israel, even if we do condemn the terrorist attack, we kill our own credibility in the rest of the world. And this is why we do reject double standards. And this is why I think it's very important in our current environment to be consistent and to follow our principles, our rules, and to consider that what is at stake is clearly the global order and what is at stake is our credibility to protect this global order.
- [25:33]
Jamie Rubin
He's basically saying double standards. We're killing our own credibility now. It's gone on so long. And this is the, the more conservative leader of Germany, the new Chancellor Mertz. Frankly, I can no longer understand the goal of what the Israeli army is doing in Gaza. So, Jamie, talk to me about outside of Israel and how the US is conspicuously not saying anything like this. And then I'm going to quote some stuff from inside Israel which is, honestly, it's got my hair on fire. It's so unusual.
- [26:03]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, I think this was to be expected because President Trump and his administration are fully aligned with the government of Israel. On the subject of Gaza. Remember last week everyone thought, ooh, they're breaking with the Israelis, because he didn't go to Israel and he went to the Muslim countries of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, et cetera. And I thought, no, on Gaza, they're.
- [26:23]
Jamie Rubin
Fully aligned Arab rich countries as opposed to Muslim countries.
- [26:26]
Christiane Amanpour
All right, Arab rich countries. In any event, that was a business trip for Trump and he hasn't changed his views. And so European allies, France, Germany, the UK is considering sanctions on Ben GVIR and Smotrich, the right wing ministers in Israel's government. And there's a reason for that, because Israel's war no longer is achieving any purpose, but causing untold and unjustified and illegal suffering for the people of Palestinian Gaza. And it's an outrage. And countries have had enough and Israelis have had enough, as you're about to share with us. But it's understandable that Israel is losing friends and allies around the world because its war no longer has a purpose. They're not gonna be able to kill every member of Hamas and they're not getting the hostages out and they are using food as a weapon. And so this is reaching, as you say, a tipping point.
- [27:19]
Jamie Rubin
You know, you talked about, you talked about sanctions just very quickly you call them right wing. But as you know, Smotridge and the other one, Ben gvir, are far, far right, far right nationalists. You know, I mean, far, far right who openly call for the expulsion of Palestinians, the annexation of Judea and Samaria, as they call the occupies west bank, and indeed settlement of Gaza. But here is Ehud Olmert who himself fought a war against Hezbollah and others. But he's a centrist by and large. Now, he was formerly Likud, but he said the government of Israel is currently waging without purpose, without goals or clear planning, and with no chance of success. This war, what we are doing in Gaza now is a war of extermination, indiscriminate, limitless, cruel and criminal killing of civilians. Yes, Israel is committing war crimes. Honestly, I never thought I'd heard, I'd hear an Israeli say that. Much less a leader, much less somebody who trends. Right. I never thought that I'd hear that. Something is changing.
- [28:22]
Christiane Amanpour
I agree. I think he's going to want to take back one phrase. War of extermination is going to come back to haunt him, because that is a phrase that justifies an accusation of genocide, which I think goes too far. Nevertheless, he's absolutely right. Right. The war is no longer serving Israel's purposes of killing off Hamas's leadership. They've killed off as many as they're going to kill off. They keep creating new members of Hamas by these bombings. They are using food as a weapon. They are using illegally military operations, violating humanitarian law, as Ehud Olmert points out. And they need to understand that, that the world isn't going to stand by indefinitely for them to try to kill off every member of Hamas. And they're not achieving any objectives. Hostages are not coming home. The Hamas rejected the recent peace proposal because Israel wants to continue the war indefinitely. So we're at nowheresville, which allows me to point out that in the end, this war will not end until a way is found to achieve two purposes. One, to get the hostages home. Two, well, three purposes to get all Israeli forces out of Gaza, and three, to prevent Hamas from retaking control of Gaza. The only way to do that is what we tried to pursue in the Biden administration, is to put in an international force between the Israelis and the Palestinians, allow food to be surged, hostages to go home, and Israel's legitimate security needs, that is not having Hamas again leading a Gaza war against them to be met. But right now, they're not doing any of those things. No hostages home, no Israeli forces out of Gaza. They're there indefinitely. And this war is causing incredible turmoil inside Israel. And I think the peace movement is let alone, I wouldn't call it quite a peace movement. The anti Gaza war movement is going to build with people like Ehud Olmert saying what you said.
- [30:27]
Jamie Rubin
And on the other side, Halevi, who is pro war and more Right wing than Olmert. He said this war is a deception. They lied to us about its achievements, failed plans and it's not succeeding in destroying Hamas. So to your point, this is an Israeli, you know, former member of a government of a Knesset committee. But I was in a conversation that others were having with a leading member of Hamas office off, you know, background Chatham House rules. But I can say that yes, they rejected the ceasefire. They say that they want an end to the war, Israel doesn't want an end to the war. And they say, and I'm gonna, I'm just going to quote this, the problem is each time we, with the negotiators and mediators and the Americans, we agree on a proposal. But then the Israelis rejected and the Americans then consider the Israeli proposals as the only deal on the table. So how do you pass that?
- [31:29]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, this is a Hamas effort to try to avoid blame for the failed ceasefire proposal of the Trump administration. Witkoff put proposal to them, they rejected it. It had already been pre vetted with the Israelis. And their argument, which has a certain justification is they don't want to go to endless mini ceasefires. They want to end the war. Hamas if they offered Hamas, if they want to end the war, they should be willing to save their own people and leave like Arafat left Lebanon. They just need to leave. If they won't do that, and that's the only possibility under Trump and Netanyahu, we're going to be in an endless conflict unless Donald Trump changes his position and adopts a view closer to what President Biden and Tony Blinken had, which was a proposal that is plausible, that would achieve everyone's objectives. The one I mentioned a few minutes ago. In the absence of that, Hamas and Israel will blame each other for no ceasefire. The war will go on. War crimes will be committed. The Palestinians will suffer. Hostages will not come home.
- [32:40]
Jamie Rubin
I got a couple of questions to ask you. War crimes will be committed. Essentially, the international community believes that the, and it's adjudicated that you can't use starvation as a policy. And, and under the Biden ceasefire, which was signed on January 19 and a whole load of hostages came out and there was a, you know, a couple of months ceasefire and aid was surged in. I'm told that aid was not conditional on the ceasefire, but you can see that that is now happening and that's illegal under international law, right?
- [33:13]
Christiane Amanpour
Absolutely, absolutely. So what they, Hamas is correctly pointing out, out that Israel appears to be using food as a weapon of persuasion. We won't allow food to come in in sufficient quantities until you give us what we want, which is the hostages. Now, the Israelis will say that food is coming in, but it's clearly not even close to food and medicine. It's not clearly enough. I'm just trying to be precise here. Food is going in, but there's clearly not enough. There's not enough aid, there's not enough medicine, there's not enough shelter. And Hamas is also stealing some of the food, some of the weapons. Sorry, some of the medicine and some of the shelter. Now, some aid goes through straight to the people who need it, but some gets diverted to Hamas and then result.
- [33:59]
Jamie Rubin
It's not.
- [34:00]
Christiane Amanpour
Now, Jamie's situation is a disaster.
- [34:03]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, but you know what? Israel and the United States have organized these distribution centers, which A, are not enough chaos, B, are in one part, and C, dozens of people have been killed just trying to get there and actually have been shot. I mean, it's terrible. There's Israeli security outside. There's some, you know, who knows what American private contractor inside the boxes, according to unicef, are filled with not enough for anybody. And it's a. It's an absolute disaster. But you know, the other thing I wanted to ask you, you know, there's a lot you just brought up. You said like Arafat left Beirut. Well, Arafat was forced out of Beirut in 1982 after the Israelis invaded. But they're not able to get rid of Hamas. So where does this end?
- [34:49]
Christiane Amanpour
Exactly? Right. Look, Hamas will argue that that was different because Palestinians were in Lebanon, wasn't their home the way Gaza is the home of Hamas. But again, the point here is that the Hamas leadership ship conducted October 7, knowing full well that it was going to cause mass suffering for the people of Gaza. And they can end that suffering by leaving right away. That's a point that's worth making. When Gaza, when Hamas blames everyone else for the problems, they can fix the problem by leaving. Okay? They're not going to do that. I don't expect them to do that. But they don't get to use phony talking points, blaming Israel for everything thing.
- [35:28]
Jamie Rubin
Okay?
- [35:29]
Christiane Amanpour
Both. There's blame on both sides. And the only solution I see, if, if, if this war is going to stop, if Israel is going to have the security it needs from Hamas no longer being in power, if food and medicine and shelter is going to get to these people who desperately need it, and if war crimes stop being committed, is going to be a peace plan that achieves the objectives of both sides. Israel has no plan. They have no Strategy here.
- [35:57]
Jamie Rubin
Apparently they do. According to.
- [35:59]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, some want to commit, you know. Commit.
- [36:01]
Jamie Rubin
No, no, no. They want to transfer the population and, and this.
- [36:06]
Christiane Amanpour
Some of them do. I don't believe that people like policy and smart. Yes.
- [36:11]
Jamie Rubin
Okay, so they are keeping the government in power. So let's just end this on the sanctions because you said that the British are considering on these two particular far right individuals, but Biden never did. He did sanctions on members of, you know, some of the right wing and the set, but never on SmartRidge and Ben Gvir. Do you think that was a mistake?
- [36:32]
Christiane Amanpour
Look, I know that President Biden made very clear to Netanyahu that having these people in his government was a disgrace. He found them offensive. I find them offensive. They say and do things that give belie any value of democracy and, and morality and law in the world. And we would be better off if they weren't part of the government. Should they be sanctioned. Yeah, I find it hard to believe that we should prevent some student from Beijing who wants to study at Harvard from coming to the.
- [37:05]
Jamie Rubin
Or even from Israel, by the way.
- [37:07]
Christiane Amanpour
Who doesn't have a social media account for them to study. That guy can't come, but Smotrich and Ben GVIR can come in and out. Yeah. They ought to have have their reputations destroyed for what they're saying and doing. And Netanyahu, unless he can find a way to shed them from his government, is going to be part of his legacy, is going to be indistinguishable from Ben GVIR and Smotrich. Let me end on this thought. Israel achieved some incredible things militarily. Not just destroying Hamas's capability, but destroying Hezbollah, returning Lebanon perhaps to its people, helping cause the downfall of Bashar Al Assad in Syria and freeing that country, weakening Iran's air defenses. Israel militarily achieved objectives, but because their government doesn't have an ability to turn military success into strategic success, this war will go on and all of those military benefits will be put at risk.
- [38:04]
Jamie Rubin
And what will happen without President Trump getting involved in a real way?
- [38:11]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. When we do our next series, six months from now, we're still going to be talking about Gaza. That's what will happen. There's no end in sight unless President Trump changes his policy and convinces the Israelis to change their policy, or unless some miracle happens and the people who run Hamas suddenly get religion, real religion, and care about the people of Gaza and leave.
- [38:36]
Jamie Rubin
Okay, so that's it for this episode. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Cristiano Manpour presents the X files we with Jamie Rubin. Don't forget to watch for our bonus episode, which drops on Thursday. And that's when we answer your Q&As. You can find us on Global Player. Download it from the App Store or go to globalplayer.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [39:00]
Christiane Amanpour
You can't be a leader if you turn around. This happens all the time. It's a landline, and I'm going to get rid of it.
- [39:06]
Jamie Rubin
Who has landlines these days?
- [39:10]
Christiane Amanpour
This is a Global Player original podcast.