← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
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- [00:03]
A
This is a Global Player original podcast.
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In a way, for the first time, don't you think people pushed back? Yup. It was over a comedian, but it was also over the right to free speech. Essentially, they won this round.
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A
His choice to use the word shalom is a really, really important moment in the history of the Muslim world's reaction to Israel.
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Unless the west is prepared to come up with a cohesive strategy, counter this domestic interference by Russia, Moscow is unlikely to stop and it'll keep testing.
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A
It's so clear that this is the president using the Justice Department for the first time in history in my memory as a personal vendetta operating organization.
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It's because he was walking backwards. I'm told that the safety mechanism triggered because his heels were going down first and they're heavier than the toes. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of the X Files with me, Christiane Amanpour.
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A
And I'm Jamie Rubin, everybody.
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Don't forget to never miss an episode. You can always catch our YouTube channel and you can listen to the podcast on Global Player or wherever you get your podcast. So just to recap, I've been a longtime correspondent for CNN in the field doing all sorts of wars and crises. And now I have my own show where I try to hold, you know, world leaders accountable and try to figure out what's going on in the world.
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A
And I'm Jamie Rubin. I've been a State Department official during the Biden administration and the Clinton administration and been examining world affairs my entire professional life.
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B
So let's get started. Jamie, let's start with sort of domestic USA because that's always pretty interesting given that the latest is Trump is ordering National Guard, actually Defense Department troops to Portland, which is a well known progressive city, has all sorts of policies that the far right really don't like and some 200 are going there. Portland is, you know, pushing back. It's gonna sue. It's gonna try to not let this happen. And Jamie, the other thing is from viewed from over here, the rest of the world is trying to figure out how to not allow MAGA style politics. Come here. So here in the UK we had a sort of stuff center centrist gathering of prime ministers and presidents from various different countries to try to figure out how not to allow what they call predator populism to take root.
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A
Well, yes, it really is an interesting time. I think the United States, for the first time in my entire life, is now being examined by countries around the world to see whether it is taking the classic steps towards behaving like an authoritarian system where the judicial processes are directed by the White House rather than independent, where a military is deployed almost like a militia when the ice, the immigration folks, go running around. So this whole rejection of politics that the president doesn't support through these new executive orders and national security memorandums, all of these are steps that we Americans used to look at other countries for as indicators of moving in the wrong direction towards a less democratic country, a less rule of law directed country. And I have to say, it's a pretty strange feeling to be under that kind of microscope for very good reasons.
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B
So on the one hand, and now we're a good. Week later, the Jimmy Kimmel fever broke in the United States. Right. So there was a huge backlash to pulling him off the air by popular vote, really. He was put back on the air and he has continued his, you know, satirizing and comedy as he always did, maybe even more punchy. And it seems to be, you know, obviously he pulled in huge ratings when he first came back on the air, and those seem to be holding. So really, in a way, for the first time in America, Jamie, don't you think people pushed back and that. Yup, it was over a comedian, but it was also over the right to free speech. And essentially they won this round.
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A
I think that's right. The fact that President Trump not liking his jokes or not liking him personally, the fact that that was even considered and he was taken off the air for several days was a dramatic step. And in a system where fear is really what drives the behavior of members of Congress in the Senate and the House, fear is what's driven law firms and executives who own television stations. Their fear of the Trump administration is what has allowed so much of this behavior to go on. I think we joked once that, you know, everyone should wear a button that says no fear or have a bumper sticker that says no fear. I think the Jimmy Kimmel moment, I am hoping, I am praying, was a moment when that fear, that fever, as you called it, may have broken. Because once you see that, the world doesn't end if you stand up to the president. The world doesn't end if you don't aren't afraid any longer.
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B
Yeah. So there's that on the one hand and then there's the other, because Trump has also, as you know, weaponized the Justice Department. And so he had his Justice Department at his orders, indict the former FBI director James Comey, who's problematic for many people on the left and the right. Problematic on the left. Because people like you, Jamie, think that him bringing out another, you know, statement about Hillary's emails just before the 2016 election essentially killed her chances. And there's issues on the right because they believe that his saying that there was Russian interference was very damaging to President Trump. And Trump has always had it in for him. Listen to what he just said. He reminded always get even. Donald Trump wrote in a 2007 book, Think Big and kick ass. In business and in life, when you're in business, you need to get even with people who screw you. You need to screw them back 15 times harder. So that is what he's doing with James Comey, who is pushing back mightily also the idea of FBI agents being at the January 6 riot, which now the writer trying to say they were there instigating the riot as a sort of a false flag. Christopher Wray, the subsequent FBI agent, is saying, that's never happened. It didn't happen. And even Kash Patel, the current Trump FBI directors, had to say the same. But Trump is saying, oh, well, you know, maybe we're gonna look into Christopher Wray as well.
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A
Well, look, this may be a second moment. You're right. I'm not a fan of James Comey. He took it upon himself arrogantly to play a role in the 2016 election in the final days. And frankly, when he got fired by Trump, the Justice Department memo justifying his firing specifically mentioned his insertion of himself into the American acting as like some kind of prosecutor instead of just giving evidence to the Justice Department for them to do that sort of work. So, yes, you're right, he's not well liked on either side. But it's so clear that this is the president using the Justice Department for the first time in history in my memory as a personal vendetta, operating organization. And I do believe that the prosecution of James Comey will generate real, real frustration, anger and recalcitrants on the part of the law enforcement community around the country. Because ultimately, our democracy is going to depend on the law enforcement community and the United States military. And we can get to that in a second, deciding when and how to obey or not obey orders that are inappropriate. And the FBI has powerful, you know, friends and throughout law enforcement around the country. At some point, the president's use of the National Guard is going to become an issue and our country, and I just can't believe I'm really saying this is going to depend on its security forces becoming and staying and insisting on being apolitical.
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B
You mentioned the military. This call went out from Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, former Fox News anchor, weekend anchor, I think, who called some hundreds of military chiefs, all services from their positions around the world. Many of them are in, you know, dealing with pretty, you know, dramatic things around the world. But they have to all come to the D.C. area for what, we don't know yet. Some have said it's going to be a rah rah pep talk. Some have said it's going to be Hegseth laying out what the war ethos means. That's his term. They've renamed the Pentagon into the Department of War, forgetting that actually the Pentagon is noted mostly for trying to keep the peace for the last certainly 80 years. Yes, there've been plenty of wars, but the point is not necessary to start them. And we don't really know, but we do know that Trump is going to go. He's just announced that he's going to go to this big gathering. And I've heard it could be about 800 leaders of all of the services coming to I think it's Virginia. What do you think this could be about?
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A
My instinct tells me that this is a flexing of the muscles of first Pete Hegseth. And remember, the generals who are coming, these are commanders, these are real military men who've conducted real military operations, who've been in war, real war. Pete Hegseth, you know, brags about his combat experience, but as far as I understand it, he was nothing more than a guard at Guantanamo. They don't take him seriously. That's been made clear off the record. Some retired generals have compared this calling of the generals to things that used to happen in Nazi Germany where Hitler was doing loyalty tests. That may be going a bit far. But what I think is really, really important here is that the generals know that Hagseth and the president can ruin their careers after they've worked for dozens of years to climb up the ladder. And they'll hear him out. But in the end, you know, General Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs under President Trump in the first term made decisions to not pursue policies the president asked for because he thought they were either illegal or inappropriate. It's going to be our military, our commanders, who are going to have to make a decision at some point if President Trump tries to use the military in a strange way. And then the other point, of course, is that at the same time, they've issued an executive order, an actual national security memorandum, to use all the resources of government to change how civil disobedience is considered the terrorism task forces all over the country have now been directed towards what they call, you know, lefty organizations that were responsible for Charlie Kirk. They say. And so this is really a moment in our country's history where our institutions are being stressed like never before.
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B
Yeah, I remember the first term people were concerned, as you said, that the military should never obey illegal orders. Now, we haven't had that, but if that is the case, it's going to be really interesting.
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A
I've heard from reliable people I believe and respect, that there is a real question as to whether the attacks on these Benezet whaling boats are legal or illegal orders. A military man is not supposed to follow an illegal order. And as I understand it, there are genuine legal questions whether this was an illegal order order, an extradition, extrajudicial killing, because there's no military justification or legal justification for it. I suspect the Justice Department wrote something up and said why it's legal. But generals, prominent ex military who can are free to speak, are starting to raise questions about the legality of those operations. So this question of following illegal orders is going to be a real issue for the rest of the Trump administration. Administration, yeah.
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B
We really do have to keep an eye on that. Good thing you reminded. And also just, you know, from the press perspective, you can't just blithely say, you know, the fear fever's broken in the, you know, in the clear, because Trump has, in fact, said that he will go after, for instance, ABC again. And so we all have to be pretty careful. Okay, so we're gonna take a quick break. Don't forget, when we come back, we will, towards the end of the program, give you our recommendation for this week, our recommendations, and we will also talk now about what happened at the UN in terms of foreign policy. And there, what were leaders thinking about Trump, the public Trump at the podium, and then the Trump in private during the bilats. We'll be right back. Okay, so back to our discussion on what just happened at the UN and what's just happened in Europe. We're going to start our foreign policy segment with the fact that very fortunately for those who are Democrats, I mean in the small D and pro Europeans, Moldova's president, her party won the elections this weekend. Now, this was a big topic of conversation at the UN and it has been for months now, because there's been a huge amount of Russian interference into that election trying to make this party break apart and have a pro Russian party come in. So the good news is, as I say, for those who you know, want a path to Europe and look to the west is that the party of President Mahesandou won more than 50%. The Russian party, Russian backed party, won about half of that. So it's a big, big, big, major win, Jamie. And it's a big deal because a lot of the world leaders were talking about that as a barometer.
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A
Well, yes, it really is. Look, across the board in Europe, Russia is testing, stressing and pressuring European countries, not just through the war in Ukraine, but through flying planes into the airspace in the Baltics, drones going inside Polish airspace, through actual attacks on shipping and other executives. And in Moldova. And I know a lot about this. Cause they tried the last time around when she ran for reelection. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars to literally interfere in the operation of the election in Moldova and to plan for civil disobedience to overthrow the government if they didn't win the election. We were able to help the Moldovan government by giving them advance warning of what was gonna happen. We shared intelligence with them. I did that with Secretary Blinken on a trip to Moldova with President Sandow, and it was a success. I'm glad that again, the people of Moldova, this tiny little place, know that they're. They're being manipulated by the Russians and don't let it happen. But unfortunately, there's still a lot of problems in Europe to deal with from the Russians.
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B
Yeah. And just another thing, I mean, you know, analysts are basically saying that, as we know, the Russians are whipping up all this support for the very far right groups, let's just say AfD in Germany. And as we know, AfD officials went to the White House not so long ago. And when I spoke to the German foreign minister in New York during the UN summit, you know, this is something that they really don't like at all. This analyst is saying, unless the west is prepared to come up with a cohesive strategy to counter this domestic interference by Russia, Moscow is unlikely to stop and it'll keep testing. One of the things, Jamie, that was super interesting. I talked to diplomats at the UN that although Trump did his whole thing, your nations are gonna fail. When it came to climate, you are all going to hell. When it came to immigration, he may have meant that, but it was a very, very. It was considered a very domestic MAGA speech. And in private, along with the Secretary General or with the Arab leaders or with, you know, other European leaders, Trump was much more collegial, much more, you know, in the sort of diplomatic mode with them. So I found that quite Interesting. And I think everybody wakes up every morning and thinks, well, which Trump are we going to be dealing with? For instance, he told the secretary general, we're 100% behind the UN even if we don't agree with all your policies. And he really wanted to know how to deal with Putin and seemed to be taking a lot of European strategies now on board that actually Ukraine needs to win. How do you think that's gonna translate?
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A
The Ukraine issue, the Middle east issue, were sort of the prime topics in addition to climate. And President Trump really does want to, I think, win a Nobel Peace Prize. And so I think there's been a movement on his part to begin to recognize by talking to world leaders and having once now talked to Putin in person to see that Vladimir Putin's the problem. And increasingly, Zelensky has done what he needed to do. He's put on nicer suits to meet with the president. He's answered all the desire for saying thank you to the president. And so I think there's movement on Ukraine in the sense that the West. West's commitment to Ukraine is stronger today than it was, say, a few months ago. But the problem is that's not enough. The real change has to come from Putin. And the fact that he was asking the Secretary General about that is good, because, look, we want President Trump to make clear to President Putin that the US Is going to back Ukraine, so that some point, President Putin realizes that, you know, it's not worth another million soldiers for another five years just to get a few more, you know, acres of territory.
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B
There's. There's a cautionary tale. Some are wondering whether, you know, having called Putin a paper tiger and having said that, you know, Ukraine could win back its territory with European support, that maybe he's setting himself up to just sort of withdraw from that and let the Europeans take that, which is, you know, not great. They want to keep the US Engaged. But anyway, we'll wait. We'll wait and see about that. Interestingly, the European Commission President, Ursula von der Leyen, the Prime Minister of Spain, Pedro Sanchez, and others there also laid out, and also the Foreign Minister of Brazil laid out how they are quite happy and pleased to have a very good and constructive relationship with the United States. But they're not going to take everything Donald Trump orders hook, line, and sinker. And we know that the. The Spanish prime minister doesn't. He has a whole, much more rational immigration policy, which he was absolutely intent on telling us. And the facts speak for it, that not only do they have a controlled immigration, but it has absolutely helped their GDP and their economy. Ursula von der Leyen says we do our own thing when it comes to climate and helping Ukraine and other such things. And of course, the Brazilian foreign minister told me that, look, they hope to have a conversation with President Trump as he alluded to when he met and cross paths with Lula as they were about to go on and off stage at the UN but this is our democracy and we can't have any country, even the United States, interfering. So I thought that was actually quite interesting that nine months in, many leaders are beginning to realize how to deal with Trump and how to use their own national security as their guiding light. But of course, as we speak, and we don't know the result of this as we speak, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is meeting Donald Trump in the White House, having also delivered to the UN a domestic policy speech, by and large.
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A
Well, that's right. And on the Middle east, you know, you know, Christiane, that because of my old job and maybe my personality, I'm always looking for a little silver lining here and there. And there was one silver lining and I'm just looking at it. The president of the largest Muslim country, President Subianto of Indonesia, did something unprecedented. He actually talked about Israel's need for security in his speech at the UN and he ended his speech with the word shalom. Now, that's not going to change the world, but to have the largest Muslim country in the world for the first time acknowledge one side of the equation. There's two sides of the equation. The security of Israel as a state and the getting of of state and national self determined rights for the Palestinians. Indonesia has normally done the thing that most countries of its type do, which is to spend its speech focused on the plight and sadness and tragedy of the Palestinians. His choice to use the word shalom is a really, really important moment in the history of the Muslim world's reaction to Israel. Whether it yields a change in the end, whether Indonesia actually is prepared to sen troops in for an Arab force to replace the Israelis in Gaza, which has been talked about, I don't know. But I do think if we're going to talk about what happened last week in New York, that was something that raised people's eyebrows, that people stood up and took notice. I noticed it.
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B
And let's just finish this on saying that also the big picture around this was the recognition of Palestinian statehood. Officially. By now, the vast majority, including the majority of the permanent five at the Security Council, Council and many, many Israeli allies. It was a big, big deal. But even though Trump told Arab leaders and then said it publicly that he would not allow Israel to annex the occupied west bank, many are saying in the halls of the UN that it's almost moot because they have approved this massive new settlement. The Israeli government, the Knesset, if they actually implement it, it will, as Netanyahu says, bury any hope for a Palestinian state. And this is really, really an appalling situation given that that is international law. You shouldn't be putting more settlements. And the vast majority of those who proposed officially recognizing the Palestinian state did so to bring back the process to a two state solution. And we cannot end this without saying it is not just that. It is also the ongoing starvation and flattening of Gaza. And that is a real, real, real problem. And the hostages that are still alive remain there. Listen, when we come back, we're going to have a little bit more fun with escalator gate. Here's a little snippet of how the right wing press decided to talk about the escalator at the UN Stopping with Trump and Melania at the bottom. On the bottom steps, Trump and Melania.
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A
Were riding it up and it just stopped. Thankfully, the first lady and the President had their hands on the rail as they were going up the escalator. I've never known an escalator to be stopped. I go on escalators all the time. That's what I'm happiest on an escalator. I'm going to say it could be a trap. You're going to say you're being wild and crazy. That's what I have to be.
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B
They set mousetraps for the bear that is President Trump. And he walked through. This could have been a massive, massive issue.
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A
And, you know, the president being frozen.
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There in one place makes him vulnerable. I mean, seriously, I still am laughing about it. First of all, they weren't frozen. Melania started striding up. The president followed her. We're gonna dive into actually what really happened and whether it's really gonna be the Secret Service, FBI, massive, you know, American investigation of this year. I don't think so. When we come back.
- [24:45]
A
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B
Okay, we're back for the last part of our conversation. Don't forget to stay tuned because we will have our recommendations. The escalator gate, Trump's triple UN Sabotage claims, actually, as you all know, went far and wide. Here's a little clip from France.
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A
As you can imagine, it's a cover.
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Story for many international newspapers as well.
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A
Let's take a look at British.
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The Daily Mirror here that calls the speech, quote, deranged. It summarizes the speech that was 56 minutes long. It talked about climate, migrants, Gaza, but.
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Also escalators, marble floors, and teleprompters.
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B
And may I add, cows. Even cows. So, Jamie, I've been talking to a lot of diplomats on the day that this all happened. And in the, in the interest, there's no there there on escalator gate, as we all know, and it's been confirmed over and again, and now the Secret Service are on board. It was a Trump videographer who was walking backwards. But here's the interesting part. For me, it's because he was walking backwards, I'm told that the safety mechanism triggered because his heels were going down first and they're heavier than the toes. So if you were just going up forward front ways, like you're meant to go up a staircase, it wouldn't have triggered. But he was going up backwards and the weight of his heels triggered that mechanism and it stopped. But no, there, there. How about the prompter? Jamie, do you remember when you were, you know, in government, the, like the Clintonites and the Biden people bringing their own prompters, because apparently that's what all US Presidents do.
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A
Yeah. The President has an entire setup. It's called the. They were called the waca, the White House Communication Corps, and they controlled all of the President's communications, including the teleprompter. It's absolutely clear that the teleprompter mechanism and it's working and it's functioning, and the tape that goes in or the file that goes in is all under the control of the White House. So it's another example of President Trump using his power to dominate our conversation with whatever comes across his mind. Escalators, you know, teleprompters, people, microphones that he claimed people didn't listen to. None of these things are real. But that's Trump's secret sauce. We talk about him all day long.
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B
Just so you know, the Escalator has a black box. There's all the data in it. Not actually, you know, got your video, but loads of video to show. And that black box with the data. As for the prompter, yes, the mirrors belong to the U.N. i'm told. But. But what happens is, as you said, the White House brings their own in, and it's a White House operator. Sadly, apparently they were all late in coming in. He shouldn't have gone out. And it was a bit of a miscommunication. Had there been a bit more time before the President got to the podium, this wouldn't have happened. Apparently it was only five to six minutes until the prompter started, but by then, the President was off on his own speeches and tangents, et cetera. As for the sound in the chamber, everybody knows by now probably that the sound is always somewhat, somewhat lowered in the chamber so that each and every delegate can listen to one plastic earpiece that they put over their ear so they can hear it in their own language. That's it. But I tell you one funny thing. A UN official on the day of escalator gate went into a bigger meeting, sort of a. Not a bilateral, but a bigger open meeting with President Trump, and he was a bit late, and he quipped, I'm so sorry I'm late. I was fixing the escalator. Apparently, everybody laughed, except he then got a pretty stiff missive from, to me, unnamed people in the Trump camp who said, don't you mock our president. Anyway, that's really what happened. So, Jamie, what about. I can see you shaking your head. What about our recommendations this week?
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A
I went to the movies twice this week, and the second movie I saw one battle after another with Leonardo Derby DiCaprio.
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B
Oh, the two of us have the same recommendation.
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A
Okay.
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B
We both went to the show.
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A
Wow, that's amazing. But let's talk about it.
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B
Yeah, you go ahead. What's your point?
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A
So Hollywood movies, I think, recently have been a disappointment. They've been remakes, they've been comic book movies. I haven't seen a Hollywood movie that had such current political and cultural and dynamic references to what's going on in our country. And they made this thing during the Biden administration. But the issue that's at the core of it is the use of the American military to fight against opponents of the administration, primarily on the issue of immigration. And that's what the movie is about. And I just found it compelling. I found the acting brilliant. It gave me an opportunity to reach out to a friend that we knew well Together. Sean Penn, when he was working on Haiti, he used to talk to us, and he was. He was brilliant. Brilliant as a military guy. But I want to make sure that I get across why it's so important. In the end, our country's unpolitical military is the critical component in our society. The military is the most respected institution. We have more than the press, more than the government, obviously more than any other institution for a whole bunch of reasons. It's apolitical. It's definitely with diversity issues in a way that people respect. Obviously, they put their lives on the line and they're patriots. And what this movie showed is what will happen if that military starts getting orders from above that change their behavior to illegally focusing in on Americans and what Americans are doing or not doing. And that's the very thing that's happened this past week. Week, a national security Presidential memorandum has been issued in response to the Kirk killing that arguably will get all of the branches of the US Government, the Justice Department, the Treasury Department, and the military involved in this question of opposition to the president through civil disobedience. If we really get to a point where people can't demonstrate and speak their mind, we are no longer the democracy that we've been prided to be. And so this movie's focus on the military is extremely important because their leadership is gonna really decide what happens to the future of the United States.
- [32:17]
B
Yeah. And just to say about the movie, it's long, but it's edge of your seat the whole way through. Sean Penn was brilliant. Leonardo DiCaprio and all the cast were fantastic. Benicio Del Toro and all the others in that incredible cast. And, you know, for all the serious today issues that it reflects, obviously there's also this sort of occasional humor that is just so strange you can't believe you're laughing. But that's one of the secret sources of this film. It makes it so compelling that you can be horrified and yet almost amused in some, you know, weird places at the same time. And it stuck with me for a long time. Probably the best film that I've seen.
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A
This year in a long, long time. And we'. We really didn't communicate this. You had two nights ago. I went the night before. And we both understood it as an action, fun drama, but managing to really cut to the core of the crucial issues of our time.
- [33:22]
B
And I'm just assuming. I don't know the details. I'm assuming it was in the works long before Trump did. Yeah, had to be, right? Well, that's. It for this week's episode of the X Files with me, Christiane, and with Jamie. Do not miss an episode. You subscribe, you download, you do all those things. Listen, wherever you get your podcast, watch our YouTube channel as well. And don't forget, we will have the bonus episode later on this week as well. Bye.
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A
Bye. Bye. This is a Global Player original podcast.