← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Is Pete Hegseth ordering war crimes in the Caribbean?
00:38:07
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- [00:03]
Jamie
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:08]
Christiane
I really took a step forward, back sideways when I saw last week that France is introducing a voluntary military service for the threats posed by Russia.
- [00:19]
Jamie
I don't think he was someone who was lining his pockets with money and filling up a Swiss bank account. I think this was about power. And when you have someone who's unelected, who's the chief of staff to a president, there's an extreme sense of loyalty that develops. And it was very difficult for Zelenskyy to let him go.
- [00:36]
Christiane
Trump is not giving his full throated support. He says we've got to look into it. Let's just remember that Pete Hegseth, way back in Trump 1.0 talked to President Trump about pardoning two U.S. military who were accused of committing war crimes.
- [00:51]
Jamie
The idea that we're going to spend our time invading Venezuela and conduct another massive regime change inside this hemisphere for no good reason, when we have alternative policies that will work is something that I just is such a disaster. I think it could bring the whole Trump administration down if they're not careful.
- [01:09]
Christiane
Jamie, my hair is on fire. Hello, everyone. It is another episode of the X Files. And I'm Christiane here in London.
- [01:18]
Jamie
And I'm Jamie here in New York.
- [01:20]
Christiane
So we're gonna ask today, should the uk, the US and other European countries follow France in starting to institute conscription again into their military, whether it's voluntary, mandatory or what? Free France has announced that it's going to do it and we need to discuss the reasons why and whether it's even possible to do. Then we're going to talk about the actual state of play with negotiations between the United States, Ukraine, Russia. I mean, there doesn't seem to be any there there right now. And we're going to ask about Venezuela as well again, because now the Secretary of Defense or Secretary of War or however he wants to term himself, Major Pete Hegseth has now been suggested that he may be ordering his troops to commit war crimes. We are not alleging that we're going to go into it. We don't have the proof, but there is some reporting from the Washington Post and many of the American senators and others are starting to talk about it. So let us get started. Jamie. I really took a step forward, back sideways when I saw last week that France is introducing a voluntary, voluntary, you know, enlistment, conscription, whatever you want to talk about it, you know, military service to make up for the shortfall and for the threats posed by Russia. Right now. It's going to be quite difficult but it's kind of important. I think.
- [02:46]
Jamie
Yeah, it's more than just important. It's necessary in our Western world for us to understand that there are threats to our societies that, you know, years ago we thought war was finished between great powers. Then Russia invaded Ukraine. And I think it was a wake up call to the countries in Europe, to countries all over the world, and with Russia conducting this brutal war with hundreds of thousands of people dying and war continuing every day. And we're going to talk about that in the next segment. I think the threat is clear. And the fact that the United States is no longer willing to be the primary and total, if not complete defense system for Europeans has caused Europeans to realize they need to do more themselves. They need to have their own self defense. Now national service is one of those ideas that when you think about service, I understand. But national service is something we talked about here in the United States under President Clinton. And it comes up a lot in Western countries. You know, there is a certain degree of expectation that the government is somehow going to take care of you, that you're going to have Social Security and a social safety net and you're going to get all these benefits from government. But there is a question, as John Kennedy asked back in the day, you know, it's not what your country does for you, but it's what you do for your country. And these are fundamental. Ask not. These are fundamental questions. And I think the fact that France is leading the way on this is very encouraging to me. Our son is 25.
- [04:24]
Christiane
I was wondering whether you were going to bring that up.
- [04:26]
Jamie
And every parent who has a son in that category, you know, wonders whether this is fair, why now? And so it has to be done in a way that people think is fair. And I think it's also wise to consider if you don't want to serve in the military for some reason or you're not suitable for that, to find some other way to serve your country. And I think this is a good idea.
- [04:47]
Christiane
Look, let's just go back because I remember you and I speaking about this idea back in 2001 after 9 11. And remember you said Bush told people to go shopping, but actually he could have told people to get out and volunteer and actually do national service, even if it didn't mean go into the military, do something to help your country while it's at war. Having had the homeland attacked on 9 11, of course that never happened. And I think that that was a missed opportunity to be honest. But I think that now with Europe and what you just said about America stepping back Europe really since 2014, since Putin invaded the east of Ukraine and annexed Crimea, he's also been pushing and probing, sending fighter jets around people's airspace where he shouldn't be, around the uk, around other European nations. Now in the last years and last couple of months for sure, there have been drone incursions actually inside NATO airspace, around NATO airspace. And so I think a lot of Europeans are, are worried that the worst case scenario that one day we might have to fight Russia is actually bearing results now with these, with these talk, talks about, about military service. And it's interesting how many of them are feeling the pressure to fill up their ranks of both full time and reserve military obviously after big drawdowns, after the Cold War ended.
- [06:18]
Jamie
We are absolutely right. After the Cold War ended there was a sort of peace dividend, people said. But in the end, for a variety of the threat has come back and it's come back in the most stark way possible. I just can't say this enough. In the heart of Europe, a war of a million plus men against a war of Ukraine's millions. This is a real thing. This is a ground war conducted every single day. And that has been a wake up call, a real wake up call to Europeans about their own security. And if, you know, first voluntary and then perhaps mandatory national military service is, is one of the ways in which we can show the Russians and the Chinese that we're going to fight for our countries. We're not going to let Russia just dictate what goes on in Europe or China dictate what goes on in Asia. Or frankly, we shouldn't let the United States dictate what's going on in Latin America. And these decisions by national leaders to put the fundamental questions forward, will you fight for your country, what will you do for your country? I think are great. I think it's a wonderful thing.
- [07:27]
Christiane
Well, it's probably a necessary thing. But look, I mean the UK ended its national services conscription back in 1960. That was the last call up. The last service. People ended that period in 1963. In the USA it was 1972 during the Vietnam War. They ended, you know, the draft. The last service of that Cohort was in 1973. So Germany, for instance, has decided right now not to do mandatory military service. They say let's try voluntary, though it says draft may become necessary. Croatia has done exactly the opposite. It's brought back in military service, having ditched it about, you know, 20 years ago. And the frontline States, Jamie, Poland and Denmark and the Baltics and all the rest of it, they're really going quite, you know, quite strongly into this.
- [08:20]
Jamie
Yeah. I mean, Putin may not understand what he's generated by his invasion of Ukraine. He's really revived a sense of urgency on the part of governments and peoples in the west, in NATO countries, in the United States and everywhere in the world that the military threat is real and we better do something about it. And this is a good thing. It's very, very important for our countries to recognize that Russia poses a threat to us. And so long as China continues to back Russia, these two behemoth countries are a threat to the functioning of our way of life and our world. And the sooner we as a. As a society, that in the west. And by the West, I obviously mean Asia and Europe and the United States, the countries that believe in democratic values, I think that'll make us stronger, and it'll deter war and prevent war. For if the potential invaders know that they're going to face a country filled with determined, voluntary or conscripted militaries will be big enough, strong enough, and I think our world will be better off.
- [09:29]
Christiane
Yeah. Look, you say it's a good thing, and empirically it sounds good and, you know, factually, but you've got the actual people who are going to be drafted or asked to do it voluntarily or whatever to consider. And, you know, this has been a long time since they've. These guys have never had to fight a war, and a long time since they ever thought they would be called up. You know, and in all the articles I'm reading about this, you know, you've got retention issues, recruitment issues. Governments are trying to figure out how to sweeten the pot, how to, you know, put some incentives, whether it's in all sorts of social services or tax breaks or whatever it might be. But how about this, Jamie? The Pew poll, according to this article I was reading, the last Pew poll, said this year fewer than a third of EU citizens said they're willing to fight for their country. 42% or so of Americans say they would. This is an issue. Societies are aging, unemployment is relatively low, so there's not that kind of incentive for the, you know, monetary value.
- [10:28]
Jamie
There's no question that when you ask young people to serve their country through military service, it's a societal question that is going to be debated and discussed over dinner tables and, and at coffee shops and on the Internet all over the world. And that is a good thing. It has to be discussed. It won't work if people think it's unfair. It has to be done fairly. It has to be done so the rich don't get to pay their way out. It has to be done in a way that it's equally shared citizenry. Everyone is a citizen, whether they're rich or poor, black or white, or, you know, women or men. All citizens should face some national service. We, we've talking about military here, but there are other ways to obviously commit people to their countries and if necessary there's an alternative to the military service. Fine. But I think in the end, once this is debated, discussed and governments do their job properly, and I grant you that's a big if, then it can, it can serve a good purpose.
- [11:34]
Christiane
You talked about women. Denmark is adding women to its draftees. And in terms of the length that is being you know, proposed right now, certainly by France, it's something like 10 or 11 months and they would be paid. So it's not like you sign up and that's it. You've given away several years of your life. It's not like that. It's to, to train a force that might be ready in reserve or if they want to be in the active duty forces, to be ready if something happens. I mean, Poland, as I said, wants to double its force right now, wants every man to go through military training. So again, this is big. And what does it all come from? As we said, Russia's illegal invasion and its threat not just to Ukraine but to Europe. So let's just quickly after the debacle of that so called 28 point plan that we discussed last week, in other words, essentially a Russian talking point that the US Picked up and sold it as a peace plan. That's all pretty much, pretty much been cast aside. And this weekend, Jamie, Thanksgiving weekend in the US you had the Ukrainian delegation meeting with the Americans, I think, including Marco Rubio, but certainly with, I think Wyckoff and the others. Rubio said productive, but a lot more work needs to be done. Ukrainians said the same.
- [12:48]
Jamie
There has been an important development in Ukraine which is the departure of Andrei Yermak, the chief of staff to Vladimir Zelensky, the President of Ukraine. This is a very important development in the development of Ukraine's democracy and the future course of Ukrainian politics. Andrei Yermak was, you know, you had all sorts of names, but he was the second most powerful man in Ukraine after Zelensky. And he exercised that power. Now I worked with him, I saw my colleagues, Jim o', Brien, Tony Blinken, work with him closely I've heard a lot about him, I know a lot about him. And I should start by saying I don't think he was someone who was lining his pockets with money and filling up a Swiss bank account. I don't think that's what this was about. I think this was about power and control. And when you have someone who's unelected, who's the Chief of Staff to a president like this, who's in a unique situation in a war, there's an extreme sense of loyalty that develops. And it was very difficult for Zelenskyy to let him go. I think it will be a good thing. Ukraine's democracy need the departure of Yermak. Yermak was an unelected official who basically isolated Zelensky from his people, from his party, from the other politicians and tried to control everything himself and got caught up in a, in a corruption scandal. And what the facts will prove, I do not know. But I think Ukraine will be better off. Whether it leads to a decision by the country to fight harder and stronger and longer, I don't know. Whether it results in a peace agreement because the Russians finally compromised, I don't know. But the result will be a more fair, a democratic result in Ukraine where one man isn't trying to control everything.
- [14:35]
Christiane
Yeah. So he had to resign because the anti corruption squad came to his house and searched it. As you said, he personally has not been accused of anything. But a lot of top ranking and important military types and others have been accused of lining their pockets to the tunes of. I mean, it's humongous in the energy and that kind of military sector. What I know and what I've heard and what Zelenskyy and all the others always say is it really doesn't matter who is negotiating. We have a unified position. And that position is that we need a ceasefire, which we've agreed to, that we will not give up territory that we have not lost and that we will not, you know, just go over the heads of our people who have sacrificed so much. So I think the big issue today that I heard Ukrainians talking about on the radio and others, as Witkoff heads over to see Putin again, is how do you get Putin to even agree to a ceasefire and even to come to the table? Yes, the corruption problem is a big problem. Others are saying, well, look what we've done. It shows that we're addressing this big problem, much more so than any Russians ever do. And by the way, we have agreed to the ceasefire, Russia hasn't. So I don't know what's going to happen next. But the fact of the matter is that nothing changes with Russia. They still don't do the basic necessities of what it would mean even to get around a table. And the first necessity is a ceasefire.
- [15:56]
Jamie
Interestingly enough, the scandal is based on. One of my friends who's very, very plugged in here, told me it goes directly to the conduct of the war because the group implicated Ready for this didn't harden energy sites, basically big cement domes with iron rods sticking out, because it wasn't profitable to do so. And that meant that a lot of the energy was lost after they were attacked. They weren't hardened and people lost their power and were sitting in the dark, losing their energy because it wasn't profitable to this one group. And so that's what this scandal was about, a real scandal in a country like Ukraine. But I think you've hit on the main point. All of this is background noise. The only issue that matters for peace in Ukraine is whether Vladimir Putin changes his mind, whether he realizes that the sanctions, the military pressure that Ukraine will continue to put in defending its own territory, the attacks that it can now conduct across Russia, the damage done done to the people of Russia, to their future, is not in Putin's interest anymore, so long as he thinks he can still win the war, which apparently he crazily does. This is in the mind of one man that we have to change his mind. And sometimes these corruption scandals, this back and forth between the Ukrainians and the United States and the Europeans, all misses the larger point, which is that until Putin realizes that the future will be worse for him if he continues the war than if he finally agrees even to stop the shooting. Remember, I can't say this enough. Every morning Russia wakes up and attacks Ukraine, and the moment they're willing to cease firing, the Ukrainians are willing to cease firing. That would be a good place to start.
- [17:44]
Christiane
Exactly. Again, nothing will happen without. Without a ceasefire first. Just before we end this, then Witkoff is going over. Do you think he's going to have any more arrows in his quiver to target Putin with facts? Because so far, it's Witkoff. Every time he goes to see Putin, he comes back with a softly, softly, gently, gently approach.
- [18:07]
Jamie
You can't just go have a few meetings with Putin and have dinner and drink vodka and think you're going to solve this problem. And Witkoff is not a serious foreign policy negotiator. None of the things he's done has shown me any great skill set. Other than to staple together what the Russians say, staple together a few things from the Ukrainians or in the case of Gaza, the Ukraine, the Israelis and the Palestinians and not enough of them and the Arabs. This is not a simple matter. And the more Rubio's involved, the more the other serious officials in the government are involved, the more likely, it seems to me, that anything that is called progress will really be progress. Because all he wants to do is show Trump that he's made progress. And often he exaggerates it by saying, oh, yes, things are going well. You know, Putin says this, Ukrainians say that we need all the players to be sitting down at a table to be huddled for weeks and weeks and weeks, and then maybe we can get some progress.
- [19:06]
Christiane
Okay, so let's wrap up this segment. We go from trying to get peace in Ukraine to actually apparently expanding this war in Venezuela. And a horrible new element seems to have raised its head, and that is are war crimes being committed? And this follows very important US Military and civilian national security officials who are in elected office right now urging military compatriots not to follow unlawful orders. Here's what they've been saying.
- [19:35]
Senator Mark Kelly
Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
- [19:39]
Christiane
You can refuse illegal orders.
- [19:41]
Jamie
You must refuse illegal orders.
- [19:43]
Christiane
No one has to carry out orders.
- [19:45]
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That violate the law or our Constitution.
- [19:48]
Senator Mark Kelly
We know this is hard and that it's a difficult time to be a public servant.
- [19:51]
Pets Best Insurance Announcer
But whether you're serving in the CIA, the army, or Navy, the Air Force.
- [19:55]
Senator Mark Kelly
Your vigilance is critical.
- [20:01]
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- [21:05]
Christiane
Alright, so we're back. We just heard that very dramatic video done by former US military and intelligence and national security officials who are mostly in elected office right now. And the fact of the matter is that that was a few days ago last week, but now, now there is new reporting broken by the Washington Post that Major Hegseth, the secretary of whatever he wants to call himself, Defense, War, Whatever, issued what is being termed an illegal order. He says he didn't do it. They say that he ordered the military to do a, quote, double tap after one strike on one of these boats that they call narcotic terrorist smuggling boats. Another one essentially telling them to, you know, basically kill all the survivors. Jamie is really. My hair is on fire. The Armed Service Senate Committee is going to be looking into this. And again, Senator Mark Kelly, former Navy commander, former Navy airman, has come out against this as well.
- [22:07]
Jamie
Senator Kelly has done something very important. He's stated a fact that military servicemen can be faced with being ordered to do something illegal and they don't have to and should not act on illegal orders. Donald Trump as president doesn't like this very much. He's threatening all sorts of consequences to Senator Kelly. That's a joke. Senators are allowed to speak the truth. They're allowed to speak frankly, pretty much whatever they want as elected officials. And this is a very important issue for our country. The rule of law is what is at stake with Donald Trump's presidency. It's coming up again and again and again, whether it's tariffs, whether it's, whether, you know, the National Guard operates inside cities, inside the United States, or now with this question of whether we should be using force against people in fishing boats who may or may not be smuggling drugs. But the war itself that Marco Rubio, I think is largely responsible for pushing is a questionable war. Very serious. Scholars of the laws of war understand that you have to have a reason to go killing people around the world. You have to have a justification, a defense justification, and there doesn't seem to be a very good one here. They keep trying to claim that Maduro is connected to drug smuggling, which is connected to threatening Americans, which is with drugs, and that they think that's justification for killing. But I think the most clear evidence of the stupidity of this argument came when they found some survivors. So here they've launched an attack on a boat saying these people have to be murdered and killed. And then when there are survivors and they capture them, they give them back because they have no basis to hold them because the war doesn't have a legal basis. And the Justice Department said we can't hold them. Them. There's no justification for holding these people, but there was apparently justification to shooting at them from above. So the war is deeply, deeply, deeply self contradictory. It doesn't make sense. And nor is it in the interest of the United States to be devoting all of our resources to this problem when there's so many other issues around the world. Think about the fact we were just talking about France in putting in place national service, national military service because of the threat from Russia. And what are we doing starting a war against Venezuela that we don't have to start.
- [24:37]
Christiane
I want to get back to Hegseth and the alleged order to kill survivors. So basically this refers to a Sept. 2 strike. It was one of the first. Pete Hegseth allegedly, according to the Washington Post and others, ordered the killing of the survivors in a US Strike on these suspected drug smugglers. Now, he's defended all of this. You know, the strikes in general is lawful. Critics, including Senator Kelly and others, have said if it does, because if the facts turn out to be, as they reported, this is anything but lawful, we're going to play Mark Kelly talking to cnn, in fact, on one of the Sunday shows this weekend, if there was a second strike to eliminate any survivors, that that constitutes a war crime.
- [25:26]
Senator Mark Kelly
It seems to. If that is true, if what has been reported is accurate, I've got serious concerns about anybody in that, you know, chain of command stepping over a line that they should never step over. We are not Russia. We're not Iraq. We hold ourselves to a very high standard of professionalism. And this is where I'm really troubled about this, is because I have so much respect for people in the United States Navy. I served in the Navy for 25 years. And there is no, no organization more professional than Navy seals and they should be revered. And that's why I say I hope what I've heard about this strike is not accurate.
- [26:08]
Christiane
You mentioned that you are a captain in the Navy. If you received that order, would you have carried it out?
- [26:13]
Senator Mark Kelly
No.
- [26:13]
Christiane
Okay. So this dramatic and I'm going to read from these reports so I get it absolutely right. The recap. Basically, Hegseth is reported to have issued a verbal order to kill everybody in quotes to US Commanders who were monitoring an alleged drug smuggling vessel in the Caribbean. The Washington Post reports they took him at his word and struck the ship with a second deadly missile after two survivors of the first attack was spotted clinging to the wreckage. Now, Hegseth says it's all fabricated and he's busy posting all sorts of stuff right now. But here's where it gets important. It's not just senators and others in the US Congress progress who want to look into it, but Trump himself has been asked about it. And he said when asked would he have supported a second strike, quote, we'll look into it, but no, I wouldn't have wanted that. Not a second strike. But Pete said that didn't happen, right? So there we have it. Trump is not giving his full throated support. He says we've got to look into it. And I think there's. That's important, Jamie, don't you? Because let's just remember that Pete Hegseth, way back in Trump 1.0 talked to President Trump and he said it himself when he was on Fox News about pardoning two US Military who were accused of committing war crimes, one in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. And in the end, President Trump did pardon them.
- [27:42]
Jamie
We have before us the fundamental difference between an honorable Senator Kelly who served in the Navy for 25 years, who believes in our country, is the strongest type of patriot you could think of, who served his country for 25 years, who understands that we are a country of laws, that we have a Constitution, we have the rule of law, and there are differences between lawful orders and unlawful orders. And you don't follow unlawful orders and you don't give unlawful orders. And then you have Pete Hagseth who seems to just not understand the rule of war and the laws of war and seems to just think that now that he's in charge, he can order anybody to do whatever he wants. Now he's denying it. And Trump obviously recognizes that it's unacceptable and, you know, unthinkable to actually kill, you know, unarmed combatants in this way in a second strike. And so we're going to find out more about it. But what I find interesting is that when they had survived survivors, the Justice Department had to look into the legality of holding them, let alone killing them, holding them, and they couldn't find a justification to hold them. That shows you that even with even some of the wildest lawyers from the Cheney period who supported all the torture under Bush, they don't think this is legal either. I think his name is John Yu, who wrote the torture memos. And even he says there's just no basis. You have to go to war for a reason. You have to launch a military conflict for a reason. You have to have good reasons to kill people in the world. And that's what a nation of laws does. Pete Hegseth doesn't get it. He's not a serious official. He's shown that over and over and over again and is jumped up way with in front of the generals thinking he can just show off and be a tough guy. But it's not a tough guy to follow illegal orders and it's not a tough guy to give illegal orders. A tough guy is a guy like Senator Mark Kelly, who's standing up for the rule of law and our Constitution. And I hope this is seriously investigated, seriously aired out, and we can show the difference to our country and the world between the good America, the America that I love and support, and the kind of people like Hegseth who are damaging the fabric of our nation.
- [30:06]
Christiane
You know, you talk about John Yoo and I guess led to Iraq and all the rest of it. So, you know, the big picture also, is there going to be a war? Because it's very scary to think that. But the idea of WMD sent America into War and UK and others back in 2003 in Iraq, and it was just such an utter disaster. I don't care what anybody says about today. It was an absolute disaster. Are you worried that the reasons for this ramping up and maybe war on Venezuela are on shaky ground?
- [30:39]
Jamie
Yes. Look, I understand the motivation of Iraqi exiles trying to egg on the United States with any argument they can up with, whether it's phony videos, phony evidence, or real evidence and real videos to try to motivate the United States to go to war, to save their own country. That's what's going on with Venezuelan emigres in the United States and some of the opposition leaders, they're trying to figure out what can work, what could possibly convince President Trump and the United States to continue this effort to unseat Maduro using military power. The problem is not only that the justifications are, or sometimes phony or exaggerated or wrong, that the goal isn't easily achievable. We have to remember how hard it is to unseat a dictator who's got the military working for him, who's got hundreds of thousands of soldiers who are going to fight for their country and who's been under sanctions for years and years and knows how to avoid the simple pressures. We have a covert operation, according to President Trump. We have these military pressure, we have sanctions, all of that. It isn't working. Maduro isn't going anywhere. And the only way to be sure he goes somewhere once we've committed to it, which would be a disaster if we really commit to it, is to invade. And the idea that we're going to spend our time invading Venezuela and our energy and our effort and conduct another massive regime change inside this hemisphere for no good reason, when we have alternative policies that will work and achieve American objectives is something that I just think is such a disaster, I think could bring the whole Trump administration down if they're not careful.
- [32:26]
Christiane
Well, on that note, you know, I think we're going to stop and get prepared for our recommendations.
- [32:35]
Jamie
Let's do that.
- [32:37]
Christiane
It won't be the Art of War.
- [32:43]
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- [33:47]
Christiane
Okay, so we are back with our recommendations. You want to go first, Jamie?
- [33:52]
Jamie
We've been talking during this episode about some dark things about America making some terrible decisions with regard to potentially Venezuela with the Trump administration not being approaching the Ukraine problem in a serious and effective manner. And I struggle with, you know, the views of America that come around and are focused on around the world. So sometimes I try to find the light and I rewatched and watched a new version, an extended version of a movie that shows a time and an America that's a very different America. And it's the Woodstock movie. They've added an hour of material. They've I guess, re edited it. It's now four hours long and it demonstrates this, this famous three day festival in 1969 which, you know, for all its flaws with the mud and the drugs and all that it had a beautiful thing which was, you know, hundreds of thousands of people getting together, taking care of each other, helping each other. A baby was born. There was no crime. There was no. There was a real sense of solidarity and hope and peace and love that was being spread amongst these hundreds of thousands of people, in addition to the epic music. For those of us who love that kind of music, which I do, I just think it's a great reminder of the best part of America. Not the best, but one of the best, perhaps parts of America, that there has always been different strains in American society. And this was a wonderful thing. And it did change the world. It changed the world for the better. It had some flaws, as everything does, and those needed to be fixed and hopefully will be, but it did change the world. It showed that love and peace and harmony and people cooperating to achieve a wonderful objective is still part of the United States ethic and fabric. And I just need those kind of good moments in life. And I hope other people will find it as valuable as I do.
- [35:55]
Christiane
It's really valuable. I just want to add a little addendum to that because I did a piece and an interview on something that was very little known. And it happened exactly the summer of Woodstock. This is called the Summer of Soul. And it was the cultural event in Harlem, so all the great black singers. And again, it was very, very un. Un. Underreported, unknown. But it was huge in terms of the musical importance and in terms of the community. And those who organized it like to say that this also was this amazing community, that there wasn't a minute of violence, that it was all everybody coming together for. For this music. And it was a. An amazing thing. So I think Woodstock and Summer of Soul are very good companions, but that is not my recommendation. I'm going to go dark. Dark. I'm going dark.
- [36:43]
Jamie
Okay.
- [36:44]
Christiane
And I don't think that everybody can see it outside the uk, but I hope you can find it somewhere. It is truly a brilliant series called Prisoner 951, and it's on the BBC. And it's the true story, but it's dramatized of the Iranian American woman Nazanin Zagari Ratcliffe and her husband, Richard Ratcliffe, who fought against the unlawful holding of her in. In Evin prison, in other prisons in Iran, and then under house arrest for coming up to five to six years, separating her from her child, separating her from her husband, and the absolute cravenness of the Iranian government and their false pretenses for taking her in. And then the British government under Boris Johnson, who went in front of Parliament when he was foreign minister and said, oh yeah, yeah, she was there teaching Iranians how to do journalism, right? No, no, that was the actual lie that they put her in jail for and she wasn't doing that. Anyway, it took a huge amount of time. Eventually it boiled down to paying the Iranians off. British paying them the money that they kind of owed Iran, where they did owe Iran on military tanks and the like, which had been sold under the Shah's regime and never delivered under the Islamic Republic. It is a brilliant series. It makes me feel deeply ashamed of what the Iranian government has done. And it also makes me feel fantastic in terms of the solidarity in that prison amongst the women, some of whom the Iranians are still there, Nobel Prize winner Nargis Mohammadi and others, how they kept themselves together. And it reminds me of course of the Iranian Americans, Siamat Namazi, who was in for nearly eight years, who defied all logic and did an interview with me on CNN a couple of years ago ago. And within six months we got him and the other four released from Aben Jail. Again, money was exchanged, but money that was owed Iran, but at least we got them out. And it just, it's a brilliant watch. It really is because nobody really knows what happens in those prisons unless you see it dramatized or you read a book. So prisoner 951 is my recommendation this week. That is it for this week's episode of of the X Files. Thank you for watching. Don't forget the bonus Q and A episode is on Thursday and we love to have all your questions so please do keep sending them in. You can send us your questions to amanpourpod.com and our handle on social is amanpour pod. Don't forget you can watch us on YouTube. Just go to Christiana Manpur presents and subscribe to our our channel. There you can see the main episodes and the button bonus episodes and of course always listen on globalplayer.com or in fact global.com whichever one works for you. Also download it from the app Store. Honestly, I'm gonna get fired.
- [39:38]
Jamie
You're not gonna be fired. Guaranteed. Bye bye from New York as opposed to forced conscription. In in in guy. And I'm.
- [39:52]
Christiane
I think it's frozen on my his. He's frozen. Oh, you don't have me because he's definitely frozen.
- [40:01]
Jamie
I'm gonna get out and come back. This has been a global player Original.
- [40:06]
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