Podcast Summary: Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files

Episode: Is Pete Hegseth ordering war crimes in the Caribbean?
Date: December 2, 2025
Hosts: Christiane Amanpour (London) & Jamie Rubin (New York)
Podcast Theme: Unpacking global crises with insider perspectives, mixing searing honesty, candid humor, and deep experience in global affairs.

Episode Overview

This episode explores the escalation and unpredictability of today’s geopolitics, focusing on three major themes:

• The return of conscription and national military service in Europe amidst Russian threats.
• The state of Ukraine’s war, internal political upheavals, and the ongoing challenges of negotiating peace.
• U.S. military conduct in Venezuela, specifically allegations of war crimes linked to Major Pete Hegseth, and the broader dangers of potential American intervention in Latin America.

Amanpour and Rubin dissect these issues with their signature back-and-forth, including personal anecdotes, sharp critique, and reunion chemistry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Europe’s Return to National Service & the Russian Threat

Main Issue: Should western nations reintroduce conscription to meet rising security threats, particularly from Russia?

• France’s Announcement: Implementation of voluntary military service as a response to Russia’s aggression.
  • Christiane: “I really took a step forward, back sideways when I saw last week that France is introducing a voluntary military service for the threats posed by Russia.” (00:07)
• Why Now?
  • Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a wake-up call for Europe’s security autonomy.
  • U.S. less willing to be Europe’s sole security guarantor.
  • National service presented as a civic duty—“Ask not what your country can do for you…”
    • Jamie: “There are threats to our societies that, years ago, we thought war was finished between great powers. Then Russia invaded Ukraine.” (02:46)
    • Jamie: "National service is something we talked about here in the United States under President Clinton... It comes up a lot in Western countries." (02:46)
• Challenges & Realities:
  • Retention and recruitment issues; societies aged and less willing to fight.
  • Pew poll: Less than a third of EU citizens and about 42% of Americans would fight for their country. (09:28)
  • Ensuring fairness, gender inclusion (Denmark drafting women), and short service terms (France proposes 10–11 months).
• European Trends:
  • Croatia reinstated conscription; Poland and the Baltics push hard for military preparedness.
    • Christiane: “Poland…wants every man to go through military training. So again, this is big.” (11:33)
• Summary Quote:
  • Jamie: “If…conscripted militaries will be big enough, strong enough, our world will be better off.” (08:19)
  • Christiane counters with the lived reality of young Europeans facing a new draft.

2. Ukraine’s War: Negotiations, Corruption & The Yermak Scandal

Main Issue: Is there any real progress toward peace in Ukraine amidst leadership scandals and ongoing war?

• Leadership Shakeup:
  • Departure (and corruption investigation) of Andrei Yermak, Zelensky’s chief of staff.
    • Jamie: “I don’t think he was someone who was lining his pockets with money… This was about power and control.” (12:47)
    • Christiane: “He personally has not been accused of anything. But a lot of top ranking…military types have been accused of lining their pockets.” (14:35)
• Impact on Negotiations:
  • Ukraine insists on a unified ceasefire position—“not giving up territory we have not lost.”
  • Major difficulty: Convincing Putin to come to the table; Russia has not agreed to a ceasefire.
    • Jamie: “Until Putin realizes…the future will be worse for him if he continues the war…this is in the mind of one man that we have to change.” (15:56)
• Attempts at Diplomacy:
  • U.S. delegation meets with Ukraine; Rubio, Wyckoff involved.
  • Disappointment with envoys like Witkoff—accused of ‘softly, softly’ posturing and just repeating what each side says.
    • Jamie: “Witkoff is not a serious foreign policy negotiator. None of the things he’s done has shown me any great skill set.” (18:07)
• Key Insight: Sustainable peace depends on Russia’s willingness to halt attacks—ceasefire as an absolute starting point.
  • Jamie: “Every morning Russia wakes up and attacks Ukraine, and the moment they’re willing to cease firing, the Ukrainians are willing to cease firing. That would be a good place to start.” (15:56)

3. Venezuela Crisis: U.S. Military Strikes & Alleged War Crimes by Pete Hegseth

Main Issue: Reports that Major Pete Hegseth may have ordered a war crime—“double tap” strikes killing survivors—during a U.S. strike on a Venezuelan smuggling boat.

• The Allegation:
  • Washington Post reports Hegseth ordered the killing of survivors after an initial strike on Sept. 2.
    • Christiane: “He issued what is being termed an illegal order…telling them to basically kill all the survivors. Jamie is really. My hair is on fire.” (21:04)
• Military & Legislative Pushback:
  • Senator Mark Kelly (D-Arizona, former Navy Captain):
    • “If there was a second strike to eliminate any survivors, that…constitutes a war crime.” (25:26)
    • When asked if he'd obey such an order: “No.” (26:12)
  • Jamie: “Senator Kelly has done something very important. He’s stated a fact that military servicemen…should not act on illegal orders.” (22:07)
  • Message echoed by national security officials, expressing that the law demands refusal of unlawful orders.
• Trump’s Position:
  • Trump says, “We’ll look into it, but no, I wouldn’t have wanted that. Not a second strike. But Pete said that didn’t happen, right?” (26:13)
  • Not giving Hegseth full backing, suggesting political sensitivity.
• Broader Context:
  • Hegseth previously advocated for pardoning U.S. personnel accused of war crimes under Trump 1.0.
  • Jamie: “We have before us…the fundamental difference between an honorable Senator Kelly…[and] Pete Hagseth who seems to just not understand the rule of war and the laws of war.” (27:41)
  • Questions about justification for the broader U.S. military campaign against Venezuela:
    • Jamie: “We have to remember how hard it is to unseat a dictator…who’s got hundreds of thousands of soldiers…and knows how to avoid the simple pressures.” (30:38)
    • Warns of another regime change disaster like Iraq.
  • Christiane: “Are you worried that the reasons for this ramping up…and maybe war on Venezuela are on shaky ground?” (30:05)
  • Jamie: “I just think it is such a disaster, I think could bring the whole Trump administration down if they’re not careful.” (32:25)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Conscription:

  • Jamie: “These are fundamental questions. And I think the fact that France is leading the way on this is very encouraging to me. Our son is 25.” (02:46)
  • Christiane: “The Pew poll…said this year fewer than a third of EU citizens said they're willing to fight for their country. 42% or so of Americans say they would. This is an issue.” (09:28)

• On Ukraine Leadership Scandal:

  • Jamie: “Ukraine will be better off. Whether it leads to a decision by the country to fight harder and longer, I don’t know…but [Yermak’s departure] will be a more fair, democratic result…” (12:47)

• On War Crimes Allegations:

  • Senator Mark Kelly: “If what has been reported is accurate, I’ve got serious concerns about anybody in that…chain of command stepping over a line that they should never step over. We are not Russia. We're not Iraq. We hold ourselves to a very high standard of professionalism.” (25:26)
  • Jamie: “It’s not a tough guy to follow illegal orders and it’s not a tough guy to give illegal orders. A tough guy is a guy like Senator Mark Kelly…” (27:41)

• On U.S. Foreign Policy Adventurism:

  • Jamie: “The idea that we’re going to spend our time invading Venezuela…when we have alternative policies that will work…could bring the whole Trump administration down if they’re not careful.” (32:25)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Conscription & National Service Debate: 00:07 - 11:33
• Ukraine Negotiations & Yermak Scandal: 12:47 - 19:06
• Venezuela War Crimes Allegations & U.S. Policy: 19:06 - 32:34
• Senator Kelly on Illegal Orders (clip): 25:26
• Final Reflections on Regime Change & Risks: 30:38 - 32:25

Tone & Style

• Candid, Sharp, and Wry:
  • Christiane frequently uses phrases like “my hair is on fire,” blending urgency and dark humor.
• Personalized & Relatable:
  • Both discuss their son when talking about military service conscription.
• Blunt Criticism:
  • Jamie and Christiane are skeptical of political leaders and their rationales, openly drawing historical parallels to Iraq.
• Insider Authority:
  • Refer to personal experience with diplomats and world leaders for credible, nuanced analysis.

Recommendations Segment Highlights (35:00+)

• Jamie: Suggests watching the extended “Woodstock” documentary as a reminder of peace, unity, and America’s better nature.
• Christiane: Recommends the BBC series “Prisoner 951,” dramatizing the ordeal of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe in Iran—highlighting solidarity, resilience in political imprisonment, and shame over political machinations.

Summary

This episode masterfully threads together the shockwaves of Russian aggression, Europe’s reckoning with security autonomy, the frustrating stasis of the Ukraine war, and the perils of new American interventions. Amanpour and Rubin’s insider debate demystifies urgent headline crises, grounds them in human terms, and never shies from challenging the assumptions and actions of policymakers—whether in Brussels, Moscow, Washington, or Caracas.

For listeners curious about the real stakes and behind-the-scenes debates shaping our dangerously unpredictable world, this episode delivers sober analysis, memorable candor, and just enough optimism to keep the flame of democracy or decency flickering.