Q&A: Caribbean chaos, Hegseth’s future and time to close US bases in Europe?

Summary

Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files

Q&A: Caribbean chaos, Hegseth’s future and time to close US bases in Europe?

Release Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Christiane Amanpour
Co-host: Jamie Rubin

Episode Overview

This Q&A episode of The Ex Files explores today's most dangerous and unpredictable global crises, with Christiane Amanpour and Jamie Rubin answering listener questions. They provide insider context on the unraveling of global order, focusing especially on escalating chaos in the Caribbean, intelligence cracks among the Five Eyes allies, controversial US defense actions under Secretary of War Pete Hegseth, the US military’s role in Europe, and behind-the-scenes US–Russia diplomacy on Ukraine.

With their characteristic wit and candor, Amanpour and Rubin deliver searing critiques of current US foreign policy, stark warnings about fractured alliances, and unique perspectives drawn from their decades in global affairs. The discussion is rich in color, personal anecdotes, and occasionally biting humor as they tackle each listener question.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Five Eyes Fracture Over Caribbean Operations

Timestamps: 00:10–02:47

• The UK has pulled out of intelligence sharing within the Five Eyes (US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) regarding Caribbean operations, particularly Venezuela.
  • Jamie Rubin: Stresses the unprecedented nature of the UK blocking intelligence sharing due to concerns, calling it a “really, really big deal.”
  • This signals a break in a historically rock-solid alliance, driven by American actions seen as illegal and prioritizing the overthrow of Maduro in Venezuela.
  • Notable Quote:

    “The fact that they are doing something they've never done before...is a demonstration of the massive error we're making in Venezuela by placing the overthrow of that regime as the highest priority...over all of the alliance relationships we have...”
    — Jamie Rubin (01:40)

• Amanpour adds that British and other allies are likely also worried about possible war crimes being committed in the US operation.

2. Pete Hegseth and Alleged War Crimes

Timestamps: 02:47–08:03

• Secretary of War Pete Hegseth’s involvement is under scrutiny for allegedly ordering a controversial “second boat strike,” killing civilians in the Caribbean anti-narco operations.
• Amanpour highlights congressional inquiries and possible legal consequences, including talk of a “presumptive pardon” from Trump.
  • Christiane Amanpour:

    “The Defense Department...is showing a rather unseemly, in my opinion, alacrity for death and killing.” (06:04)

• Hegseth’s inflammatory rhetoric is quoted—equating narco traffickers with Al Qaeda and drugs with “chemical weapons.”
  • Hegseth (quoted by Amanpour, 07:15–07:33):

    “These narco terrorists are the Al Qaeda of our hemisphere and we are hunting them with the same sophistication and precision that we hunted Al Qaeda...so long as they are poisoning our people with narcotics so lethal that they're tantamount to chemical weapons.”

• Rubin lambasts Hegseth’s leadership:
  • Notable Quote:

    “Pete Hegseth will go down in history as the worst defense secretary the United States has ever had. It’s a joke—but it's not a joke…”
    — Jamie Rubin (08:03)

• The larger issue is the alleged illegality of the US campaign itself, from “firing all the military lawyers” to “returning survivors” because they had no legal basis to detain them.

3. Venezuela and Regional Attitudes

Timestamps: 02:47–05:13, 12:20–13:18

• Amanpour notes substantial Latin American support (~53%, per a poll) for ousting Maduro, with several right-leaning governments backing US policy.
  • The hosts disagree on whether this support would extend to a US invasion.
  • Rubin: Highlights the impracticality and lack of public appetite for a direct invasion.
  • Amanpour: Relays her conversation with former Colombian President Iván Duque, who downplays the risk of “another Iraq”—a stance she find shocking.
• The regional drug crisis is illustrated by surging crime in Ecuador and Mexico, and pervasive narco-trafficking undermining civil authority.
• Rubin: Points to “Plan Colombia” as a relative past success, but underscores the demand side of America’s drug problem as the root issue:
  • Quote:

    “The big piece of the puzzle is the demand side. And I don’t have a great answer for it.” (13:16)

4. US Bases in Europe and NATO’s Future

Timestamps: 14:59–20:15

• Listener question: Should the US close its military bases in Europe if it won't defend Europe from Russia?
• Rubin: Pushes back—while US leadership under Trump has reduced military support and arms deliveries to Ukraine, the NATO commitment remains. He supports European “stepping up,” but rejects a withdrawal.
  • Quote:

    “There’s no need to eliminate US bases because we still do support Europeans. We are scaling it back, and I think that’s a mistake because now Europeans are stepping up.” (16:31)

• Amanpour: Expresses deep disappointment and frustration as a European, recalling WWII history and warning against a transactional, “real estate deal” approach to Russian aggression.
  • Quote:

    “It’s not about land, it’s about sovereignty...If you can’t trust the people who are going to guarantee your independence…I don’t know where we go from now. And as a European myself, I actually feel insulted.” (17:49)

• The impact of delayed US aid to Ukraine—possibly due to Russian disinformation and Congressional obstruction—has been devastating, according to both hosts.

5. Domestic Politics: Immigration and the Stephen Miller Effect

Timestamps: 20:52–21:24

• Amanpour points to Stephen Miller’s influence over the current administration’s national security doctrine, especially intertwining immigration and foreign policy under Project 2025.
• Rubin: Miller is Deputy Chief of Staff, “has an agenda, and he is pursuing it by whatever means necessary.”

6. Witkoff, Kushner, and the ‘Amateur Hour’ of Ukraine Diplomacy

Timestamps: 21:28–26:19

• Listener question: How are Trump confidants Witkoff and Kushner conducting diplomacy with Russia?
• Amanpour: Calls their real-estate-oriented, informal approach “amateur hour,” incapable of dealing with Putin’s intransigence.
  • Quotes Tom Friedman: “useful idiots.”
  • Quote:

    “You cannot have two people...thinking that they can transpose real estate deals to the very difficult dealings of peace negotiations...It was a capitulation demand for Ukraine.” (22:10)

• Rubin: Explains traditional diplomacy requires serious, structured working groups spanning legal, military, territorial, and sanction issues.
  • Quote:

    “Instead, you have these amateurs thinking they can do it on the back of cocktail napkins as if it’s a real estate deal and they’re failing...Until it is done properly, the war is not going to end.” (23:51)

• Both hosts lament the lack of professional diplomatic coordination and warn that genuine progress will only come with proper, expert-led negotiations.

7. Corruption and Ukraine’s Image

Timestamps: 25:31–27:13

• Amanpour acknowledges that corruption scandals in Ukraine, including top-level resignations, have damaged the country’s image but notes that Russian disinformation exacerbates focus on these issues to undermine support.
• Both agree ongoing Western support for Ukraine is essential, echoing military expert Rupert Smith—“the Ukrainians, he said, will not stop fighting, will not give up.”

---

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On intelligence cooperation breakdown:
  “This is one of the terrible consequences...our intelligence relationship with Britain shouldn’t be jeopardized for something this low priority.”
  — Jamie Rubin (01:50)
• On US military’s “chemical weapons” rhetoric:
  “First of all, Al Qaeda. Secondly, chemical weapons, that's the old WMD. I mean, he literally used the elements that the American administration used in Iraq...”
  — Christiane Amanpour (07:35)
• On European security:
  “If you can’t trust the people who are going to guarantee your independence and your sovereignty and the right not to be invaded by some revanchist former superpower, I don’t know where we go from now.”
  — Christiane Amanpour (18:05)
• On Trump’s Ukraine envoys:
  “These are very, very arrogant people who’ve been empowered by the president, and it’s not serious. It’s amateur hour.”
  — Jamie Rubin (23:33)
• Personal frustration:
  “As a European myself, I actually feel insulted. Not because I don’t think we should be doing more...but I still don’t get it. What is so toxic about us that the United States has decided that we should be on our own?”
  — Christiane Amanpour (17:50)

---

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Five Eyes split on Venezuela: 00:10–02:47
• Hegseth controversy & war crimes allegations: 02:47–08:03
• Latin American attitudes, Plan Colombia, & the War on Drugs: 12:20–13:33
• Should the US close European bases?: 14:59–20:15
• Impact of domestic politics (Stephen Miller/immigration): 20:52–21:24
• Witkoff/Kushner Ukraine diplomacy critique: 21:28–26:19
• Ukraine corruption & Western support: 25:31–27:13

---

Final Thoughts

This episode provides incisive, candid, and occasionally exasperated analysis of a world in flux. The hosts highlight the deepening cracks in traditional alliances, the perils of inexperienced leadership, and the urgent need for both moral clarity and professional diplomacy. Their exchanges blend seriousness, humor, and urgency—a must-listen for anyone hoping to understand today’s high-stakes global drama, even if you missed the episode itself.

Transcript

[Jamie Rubin]

This is a Global Player original podcast.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Q and A episode of the X Files with me, Christian Amanpour and Jamie Rubin. And of course, this is where we both answer your questions. So let us get started right now. Jamie Sharn on YouTube says that on the Late show with Stephen Colbert, a great, great show which should not be cancelled. It was mentioned that the UK pulled out from sharing with the Five Eyes, that's the intelligence group in the Caribbean, because of the controversy and the chaos of the American operation there. Do you think the other three will follow the UK lead?

[Jamie Rubin]

I'm not sure, but I don't think we should underestimate the significance of this. This is a really, really big deal for those of us who understand the American intelligence community and its cooperation with other countries around the world. Obviously the United States massive technical intelligence capability. But we also work extremely closely with Canada, with Australia, with New Zealand, and with the uk and that's called Five Eyes. And this is a powerful, powerful, cooperative unit. And think about with the British, remember the oss, the original US Intelligence service was modeled after the British intelligence service. And the cooperation between London and Washington on intelligence has been one of the thriving examples of our relationship with the United Kingdom, our closest, closest ally on this subject. The fact that they are doing something they've never done before, which is block intelligence sharing, because they believe what we're doing in the Caribbean is illegal and they don't want to be part of it, is a demonstration of the massive error we're making in Venezuela by placing the overthrow of that regime as the highest priority of American foreign policy over all of the alliance relationships we have, all of the work we need to do vis a vis China, around the world, all the work we need to do vis a vis Russia, the Middle east, et cetera, because Marco Rubio has this obsession with Venezuela, thinking that it'll somehow, if Venezuela falls, it'll weaken the Cuban government. This is a mindless, flawed, skewed and damaging obsession of this administration to overthrow Maduro, and this is one of the terrible consequences of it. On a matter of the highest national security priority, our intelligence relationship with Britain shouldn't be jeopardized for something this low priority.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And actually, I'm sure the Brits and the others probably are concerned that there may also be war crimes committed. Everybody's saying, no, hold on a second. But Major Hegseth of the Secretary of War, as he calls himself at the cabinet meetings, has been accused, or it's been suggested that he ordered that so called second task. He denies it. There's been a whole load of congressional inquiry and there's still a lot of differences over this. And Lena on email, for instance, suggests that could Trump possibly issue a presumptive pardon? Who knows? But Hegseth is shaping up to be a consistent thorn in the side of this administration because even Signalgate, you remember this when Hegseth had a signal WhatsApp group, whatever it was, and it was leaked, they had not leaked. They invited a top journalist on, Jeffrey Goldberg of the Atlantic, and it became an absolute cause, un celebra of how not to do serious work. So there's all that going on in the background. But one other thing, Jamie, on the on I know that you hate it and we've talked about Venezuela often, but I was actually quite stunned and I did it on my CNN program last week that there is a large number of people in Latin America who actually support this and who want to see Maduro gone something like 53% according to a pol. Several nations, most particularly those who are more on the on the right, are supporting Trump, the Venezuelan opposition leader, as we know, does. And she's in Europe this weekend. She's going to leave Venezuela this week rather to accept her Nobel Peace Prize. And we've got Colombia and you know, all these other places, Chile and other places, they are much more, as I say, on the right of their general politics. And there are a wash in narco trafficking and the whole drug Christianity. No, no, I know. I'm just telling you what they think, what these Latin Americans.

[Jamie Rubin]

I know, but we're saying that these polls and these questions, obviously I want Maduro gone, too. We all want Maduro gone. The question is what are you going to do about it and is it worth it? And since I believe that to get Maduro gone, really gone, you're going to have to invade Venezuela. And I can assure you that all these people who say they want Maduro gone right now are not going to be in favor of an American invasion of Venezuela with 250,000 troops.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I will say something, yeah, that's probably very true, but I'm just thinking of Ivan Duquet, who I've interviewed many, many times, the former conservative president of Colombia. When I said, aren't you concerned because he supports it? Aren't you concerned about, you know, another Iraq? And he said to me, well, you know, Iraq hasn't turned out to be that bad. And I'm like, all these years later, that's what the, you know, Venezuelans have to have to wait for another 25 years. Anyway. Shall we move on? Do you want to ask the next question?

[Jamie Rubin]

Absolutely. Joyce, on YouTube, are you comfortable weighing in on the second boat strike issue, the US defense policy regarding it, international war crimes law and Congress's role in addressing it? Christiane?

[Christiane Amanpour]

So, okay, so we've done a little bit about it. Congress really is starting to address it because of this second boat strike called the second tap, double tap rather, where they're accused of having, you know, issued another strike order that killed civilians and survivors. As far as anybody knows, we have had no evidence to the contrary that all of these victims were definitely not in military garb. They were definitely not on military boats. They seem to have all been civilians. And even though the administration calls them terrorist narco traffickers, it appears that they were all civilians. So that is a big, big issue. And certainly the Defense Department, otherwise known as the Department of War, it's a who old sort of new self named Pentagon under Pete Hegseth is showing a rather unseemly, in my opinion, alacrity for death and killing. Let me play this from Hegseth, already under questioning, or rather question. And you know, everybody's wondering what he ordered and what he didn't, even though he says he didn't in that second tap. But this is what he said just a few days ago at a speech or some kind of meeting in California.

[Jamie Rubin]

These narco terrorists are the Al Qaeda.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Of our hemisphere and we are hunting them with the same sophistication and precision.

[Jamie Rubin]

That we hunted Al Qaeda.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We are tracking them, we are killing them, and we will keep killing them so long as they are poisoning our people with narcotics so lethal that they're.

[Jamie Rubin]

Tantamount to chemical weapons.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Right, Jamie, let's take a breath. First of all, Al Qaeda. Secondly, chemical weapons, that's the old wmd. I mean, he literally used the elements that the American administration used in Iraq, Al Qaeda. You know, Iraq did 9, 11 with Al Qaeda and Iraq had chemical weapons and biological and nuclear weapons. That was the causes belli for the Iraq War of 2003.

[Jamie Rubin]

Look, Pete Hegseth will go down in history as the worst defense secretary of the United States has ever had. It's a joke. He's a joke, but it's not a joke when he tries to implement the policies of Donald Trump on Venezuela. Let me say a few things about this. The second boat strike issue is a bit of a diversion. The real issue is whether the whole project is legal. I found it very interesting that when they fired all the military lawyers in the early days group of ex military lawyers got together and begin to speak out and say what they believe about this policy. All of them believe the whole policy is unjustified under law and is therefore illegal. And the best evidence of that is not the second boat strike. It's the fact that they had to return survivors. So they attacked one of these police before that, right? Yes, there were some survivors and they picked them up and they didn't have any legal basis to hold them, and so they returned them to their countries. So they were prepared to kill them if they were on a boat, but when they picked them up, they returned them to their countries. The whole thing is a legal bit of mumbo jumbo. And for Pete Hegseth to call drugs chemical weapons is an example of his, you know, juvenile behavior. This is a juvenile comparison to compare sarin gas or, you know, mustard gas to drugs. Remember, the United States problem is that we have a high demand for drugs, right? And they never address that, and it's never addressed. And they are coming up with every excuse they can. And Pete Hegseth is damaging the reputation of our finest institution, the United States military, one of our finest institutions, where people work very, very hard to protect our country and are not prepared and should not be prepared to follow laws that are illegal. And what the issue here is is that the whole project is illegal. It's not just a question of the second boat strike. It's a question of whether you can start murdering people on boats based on a theory that this is a war, when what they are doing is supplying a product that Americans apparently want too much of. So this isn't a war, it isn't legal, and this is all gonna come out over time. And the questioner asked about the role of Congress. And slowly, encouragingly, Repub Republican senators are joining Democratic senators and starting to do their jobs, asking the hard questions about this, conducting oversight, conducting hearings. There was a terrific op ed by a man named Michael Waldman, I believe in the New York Times, suggesting that a proper special committee be created to investigate this whole project. The whole project is a grand error. And I need to remind people that Maduro was prepared to do what we needed him to do, which is to kick the Iranians out, kick the Chinese out, give us access to, remember, they have the largest oil reserves in the world in Venezuela. They didn't ask us to love Maduro's government, but they just wanted to offer a good deal to Trump. And surprisingly, because this is very transactional, I'm surprised Trump may not have Ever been briefed on it properly? We get access to the oil, access to the gold, kick the Chinese out. And remember, this goes against their claim that in their new national security strategy, the biggest goal is what they call the Trump corollary to the Monroe Doctrine. That corollary says prevent non hemispheric powers, I.e. china, Iran and Russia from having capabilities inside the Western hemisphere. You want to implement the Trump corollary to the Monroe Doctrine? Then get rid of the Chinese in Venezuela, get rid of the Iranians and end this revolution. Ridiculous focus on Venezuela as a. Taking up a carrier battle group, billions of dollars for a project that probably won't work. You cannot bluff this guy out of office.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, I mean, and that, as you say, was apparently according to reports, what Maduro is willing to give in order to stop this stuff. That is, you know, get those powers out of Venezuela, because they are there. Just a quickie before we move on though. Look again, I said all these other countries actually do support getting rid of him by hook or crook. And they are many of them. You know, there's, look at, look at, I mean, there's a, a full page in the New York Times on Ecuador, riven by crime because of cocaine. Mexico, you know, friendly. It's part of the North Atlantic, whatever, the northern North American trade thing. They have terrible, terrible drug issues in terms of making the drugs, sending them to the US but whole provinces being run by these, you know, drug lords. They gotta somehow crack down on them. How does one do it? And I know the demand is from the US So what is the way out of this? I mean, since time immemorial we've been hearing about the war on drugs.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah, I think it started under Richard Nixon. He declared it. Look, I don't have a great answer for this. I know that one example of a successful policy occurred in Colombia. There was a civil war there, terrible civil war.

In the 90s. And the United States developed something called Plan Colombia. It was one of the greatest combination of dea, Justice Department, foreign assistance, military assistance, diplomacy put together, and it turned Colombia around and it helped deal with the drug problem there, the drug exports from there. And we were working closely with Colombia and we were making progress. But then because the Colombian president disagrees with Donald Trump on a few things, they changed all of those policies. And now Colombia and the United States are at odds. There are ways to do this on the supply side, but that's only a small piece of the puzzle. The big piece of the puzzle is the demand side. And I don't have a great answer for it.

[Pets Best Advertisement Voice]

Protect your pet with insurance from Pets Best Plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independent American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. backslash policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Right now sue on email I think it's my question to you now. Now, if the US Is no longer willing to support Europe in any Russian aggression, is it time for all US European bases to be closed? Whoa. That's a, that's a. That's a brutal question.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yes. Well, I fortunately, I don't think it's quite right to say that we're no longer willing to support Europe in a Russian aggression. Even under the Trump administration, they've made clear that NATO still is in force, the NATO treaty is still in force. We still have a willingness to support Europeans. We're not doing it the way we should. We're not doing it the way President Biden was doing it successfully with European countries. Instead, the Trump administration is focused on one part of the problem, which is Europeans spending more, doing more, and being more responsible for their own security. And I favor that. But it shouldn't be combined with the presumption that we're not part of NATO anymore. We're not willing to support Europe against Russian aggression. Now, it's true that the Trump administration hasn't given any more weaponry to Ukraine. Ukraine is part of Europe. They're not part of NATO, but they are part of Europe. But instead, the arrangement appears to be that the Europeans spend their money, or hopefully soon Russian money to buy American weaponry for Ukraine. So we're heading in the wrong direction under President Trump with this alienation of Europe, this false claim that their civilizational erasure is about to happen, which is complete nonsense. But I do believe that that still have a strong relationship with Europe, and Secretary Rubio has made that clear. So there's no need to eliminate US Bases because we still do support Europeans. We are scaling it back, and I think that's a mistake because now Europeans are stepping up. Remember last week we talked about France beginning to institute military service. Europeans have realized that they do need to take a greater responsibility for security in Europe because of Russia. And I think we can get a better battle balance, but it should not be us pulling out. What do you think about that?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, I mean, look, I just can't even believe it. I just keep thinking, you know, what would have happened in World War II if America, if Churchill hadn't managed to get America in and hadn't managed to turn the tide of a terrible, terrible war. And I think it was Tom Friedman who wrote just this week that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, this administration treats the Russian, European, I. E. Russian, Ukrainian aggression is just a real estate problem, you know, or they're dealing with a real estate issue when they talk about how much Russia should have and this and that. But, you know, it's as if you were saying that, and I may be paraphrasing here, that Hitler was all about a real estate, you know, he was gobbling up all this real estate in Europe. It's not, it's about an idea. It's not about land, it's about sovereignty. It's about independence, it's about the rule of law. And it's about, about a group of people, I. E. The Ukrainians, who were promised back in 1994 that they would have a security guarantee by the United States, the UK And Russia. Right. I've got the right, right countries and what happened exactly? They didn't get it. They didn't get it. Nuclear weapons. Yeah, they gave up their nuclear weapons. I'm offended by this. They should have kept their nuclear weapons. If you can't trust the people who are going to guarantee your independence and your sovereignty and the right not to be invaded by some revanchist former superpower. I don't know. I don't know where we go from now. And as a European myself, I actually feel insulted. Not because I don't think we should be doing more. Probably we should, but I still don't get it. What is so toxic about us that the United States has decided that we should be on our own? And let's not forget, I mean, I was in Munich, Munich when JD Vance started this back in February. And I watched, I was chilled. And I watched everybody else walk out of that, you know, of that room. And I heard European leaders saying, disgraceful. And I heard the German Defense Minister stand up and heckle van saying it's unacceptable what you're saying about lifting up the far right parties. And especially in, in Germany. You can imagine the afd, the whole thing has gone ass backwards. And I, I can't really see any upside to it, although I know People are trying to make upsides to it. But all I can think of as well, Jamie, is that for seven months during the 2024 election campaign, before Trump was even president, he forced the Congress to stop sending vital, necessary arms to Ukraine. That seven months was a gigantic period of time. Maybe it was even longer by the time the pipeline started to flow again, again. But that affected them on the battlefield. It just did. And now they're running out of money. And unless they can get the Russian frozen assets, there's going to be a huge question as to how Ukraine is going to get the money it needs just to survive and pay for its own infrastructure and its own government and its own natural resources, much less, you know, much less the fighting.

[Jamie Rubin]

I should add there, before we go to the last question, that there's been very credible reporting that Vladimir Putin and the Russians conducted an information operation using people they paid in Tennessee and others to persuade members of Congress to delay the aid for Ukraine based on the argument that we should be dealing with immigration rather than helping Ukraine, and that it was a successful information influence operation, and that that's one of the reasons why the aid was delayed, that it was a real Russian operation that succeeded. Anyway, last question.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Jamie, just before you. Just before, because I want you to. I just want to say there are so many people who see Stephen Miller's hands all over the current national security doctrine. Anytime you talk about immigration, it's a Miller project. It's all written in Project 2025. So he has got a huge amount of power, and he is. What is he? He's the chief policy adviser to the president. Right. I don't know what his actual formal title is.

[Jamie Rubin]

Deputy Chief of Staff.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. And he has an agenda, and he is pursuing it, you know, by whatever means necessary.

[Jamie Rubin]

All right, I'm going to read the last question. You ready?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah.

[Jamie Rubin]

Manuel, on email asks. We hear so much about the ways Witkoff is conducting his strange diplomacy with Russia, where nobody seems to be in the loop. I'm very much interested in the details on how such a process would normally be set up, how much happens via informal channels, who's reporting to whom, who's coordinating all the involved parties. Christiane, I have, you know, a lot.

[Christiane Amanpour]

About this and I know a little bit about this. But again, and I'm sorry to say this is probably mean, and one day, when the Americans have a fabulous peace agreement in which Russia retreats and the Ukrainians are safe, I'm going to say Mayor Culpa, and I'm sorry, but this is Amateur hour. This is amateur hour. You cannot have two people who may be successful in their own right, Kushner and Witkoff, thinking that they can transpose real estate deals to the very difficult dealings of peace negotiations with somebody who's a very, very clever, wily, determined, immovable object, that is Putin. He has an agenda. As you notice, he hasn't moved from his maximalist demands since February 2022. In fact, since he first annexed and invaded in 2014, he hasn't moved. He has not moved, even though he hasn't won anything or a little bit, but he hasn't moved from his demand. So it really upsets me. And this 28 point plan was just an embarrassment. It was a capitulation demand for Ukraine. And Tom Friedman, again quoting him, I think, call them useful idiots. Sorry, but that's what it is.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, yes, let me give the partial answer. So Ukraine is the most complicated, most important foreign policy problem of our time. And it has so many powerful and important components that you would need to con deal with if you were going to get a real peace agreement. Obviously, the ceasefire in place, Ukraine's military posture, a security guarantee for Ukraine in the future, what to do about Russian assets, what to do about the sovereign territory that Russia will presumably control if it's frozen, what to do about war crimes, what to do about sanctions relief. All of these things, each of which could take 5, 10, 15 smart people from all over the government conducting, you know, working groups with a whole team put in place and a whole structure. That's the way it would work if we were serious about it. It. Instead, you have these amateurs thinking they can do it on the back of cocktail napkins as if it's a real estate deal and they're failing. Let's just remember, we hear a lot of talk. It's all this 28 point, this Witkoff meeting with them, this Kushner saying, I don't want to spend so much time, my wife will be mad at me, all this nonsense. These are very, very arrogant people who've been empowered by the President, and it's not serious. It's amateur hour. We haven't made any progress. We will someday, because this is the situation, will yield a result at some point, but it's not going to be because of the, the braggadocio of Witkoff and Kushner. And remember, the reason for this is because he doesn't seem to trust his team. He puts these outsiders in place because they just do exactly what he's going to say. Where's Marco Rubio? He should be running this bloody thing with a whole team. The State Department, the Pentagon, the intelligence community. And it should have a proper structure, and that's the way it should work. And until it is done properly, the war is not going to end.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So, again, you know, one part of this question was how much happens via informal channels. And of course it does, but as you say, that's not the main thing. I think anybody who wants to know how you actually do a negotiation could get the. The chapter and verse of the jcpoa, because that, as you said, had very many experts on sanctions, on nuclear physics, on, you know, numbers of, you know.

[Jamie Rubin]

Or the Bosnian war, which is about a war.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Each big piece, I was going to say little chapter, each big piece had a group of people working on it, was super, super serious. But I will say one thing. I. I believe Trump wants to end the war. I believe Witkoff does, I believe Kushner does. I believe they want to see the end of. Of this savage killing, but at what cost? And so that's really the endless question. And we haven't had time to talk about this, but we probably will at some point. I do think the view of the Ukrainian government has been somewhat, sadly damaged by this massive corruption scandal. It hasn't touched Zelensky himself, but his own chief of staff had to resign. One of the most powerful people in Ukraine. And it.

[Jamie Rubin]

Which I think was a good thing, I think.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, yeah, yes, of course. But the thing is, all of this also, the corruption stuff is a part of. It is a big Russian disinformation campaign to make the world focus on corruption rather than the survival of. Of Ukraine. So I think all of this is. Is really difficult, but just to wrap it up, I was talking to General Rupert Smith, who was the last general in charge of UN forces in Bosnia as the, you know, the war was being ended by the US diplomatically, militarily, etc. And I asked him, good old Rupert, he said, look, the Ukrainians, he said, will not stop fighting, will not give up. So something has to continue. And the best thing is to continue putting pressure on Russia with financing Ukraine and sending the proper weapons.

Look, just. Jamie, I think that's a good place to end. Thank you for listening to the Q and A episode of the X Files with me, Christiane, and with Jamie. If you have a question for us, don't forget to keep them coming. You can do so by emailing at [e-mail] or social media. Our handle is Amanpur Pod and we like to answer your questions, keep them flowing. And our next actual episode full episode will be next Tuesday. We're going to sum up what happened this year in foreign policy. That should be fun. Bye Jamie.

[Jamie Rubin]

Goodbye again from New York City.

[Pets Best Advertisement Voice]

Protect your pet with insurance from Pets Best plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit pets best.pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC or underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.

[Jamie Rubin]

This has been a global Player Original.

[Pets Best Advertisement Voice]

Production the following ad is sponsored by Pets Best Insurance Services. You knew right away he's perfect. The one for you. Those puppy dog eyes, that cute little button nose. You don't even mind the drool. When you find your perfect match in a dog or cat, the love is unconditional. Your budget, on the other hand, has realistic limits. Help protect your heart and your wallet with pet insurance from Pets Best. With plants, starting from less than a dollar day, you can get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills. Pets Best makes it easy to pick a plan that works for you and your bank account. Find the perfect match for your Perfect [e-mail] Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC or underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transformation First Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.