Q&A: Could the US really become a dictatorship?

Summary

Summary of “Q&A: Could the US Really Become a Dictatorship?”
Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Release Date: June 4, 2025

In this compelling Q&A episode of Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files, renowned journalist Christiane Amanpour and her ex-husband Jamie Rubin delve into pressing global issues, focusing particularly on the stability of American democracy, the lingering effects of Trumpism, and the United States' stance on the Israel-Palestine conflict. Drawing from their extensive backgrounds in journalism and diplomacy, Amanpour and Rubin provide nuanced insights into these complex topics, enriched by listener-submitted questions.

1. Would Jamie Rubin Ever Want to Be President?

The episode begins with a light-hearted exchange regarding whether Jamie Rubin ever aspired to become President of the United States. Rubin candidly responds, dismissing the notion of his presidential ambitions:

Jamie Rubin [01:42]: “Anybody who's in my business imagines that possibility, but I think my realistic ambition probably was something more like Secretary of State or National Security Advisor.”

Amanpour adds a personal touch, recounting their past discussions about Rubin's political aspirations, ultimately agreeing that his strengths lie in advisory roles rather than electoral politics.

2. Combating Trumpism's Influence

Listener Temmie poses a critical question about countering the enduring negative impact of Trumpism on both the U.S. and global landscapes. Rubin addresses the challenge by highlighting internal political dynamics and the necessity of bipartisan efforts:

Jamie Rubin [03:53]: “The most important three words in the English language for Americans and Israelis is organize, organize, and organize... we have to do that if we're going to prevent Trump from ruining our country.”

Rubin emphasizes the role of Republican senators and the Democratic Party in instituting safeguards against authoritarian tendencies, suggesting that collective action and political organization are vital in mitigating Trumpism's adverse effects.

3. U.S. Support for Israel Amidst War Crimes Allegations

Amina raises a poignant question regarding the justification of U.S. support for Israel in light of alleged war crimes against Palestinians. Amanpour references recent statements from former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and other officials who have acknowledged potential war crimes, setting the stage for a deep dive into the geopolitical complexities.

Rubin responds by distinguishing between support for the Israeli government and the Israeli people:

Jamie Rubin [08:43]: “Our support for Israel is not our support for the Netanyahu government... It's a complicated question.”

He underscores the bipartisan alignment with Israel within the Republican Party and the nuanced positions within the Democratic Party, where a faction of senators and congressmen advocate for Israel's support while criticizing its government’s actions. This delicate balance illustrates the intricate interplay between political allegiance and human rights considerations.

4. The Gaza Ceasefire and Political Strategy

Listener Peppercorn questions why the Biden-Harris administration did not more prominently feature a Gaza ceasefire proposal during their election campaign, despite Rubin and other officials working on such a plan.

Rubin critiques the political landscape, noting that far-left extremists dominated the discourse, stifling moderate and strategic approaches to the conflict:

Jamie Rubin [11:54]: “The political operatives were so afraid of raising the subject of Gaza because of the protesters... Extremists dominate the debate and cause untold damage.”

He explains that political fear and the influence of extremist voices hindered the administration's ability to effectively communicate ceasefire strategies, ultimately affecting voter perception and campaign priorities.

5. The Threat of American Dictatorship

Adriana, an email contributor, raises concerns about the current U.S. president's actions aligning with dictatorial playbooks. Rubin responds by expressing fear not of an outright dictatorship but of undermining America's democratic reputation:

Jamie Rubin [15:38]: “I fear that we are damaging our reputation as the greatest and first democracy in the world... But it doesn't constitute a dictatorship. Not yet.”

He draws parallels to the McCarthy era, emphasizing the dangers of fear-mongering and the erosion of civil liberties, while maintaining hope that democratic institutions and public vigilance will prevent a slide into authoritarianism.

Amanpour reinforces this sentiment by highlighting the importance of defending democratic freedoms:

Christiane Amanpour [17:59]: “We still have a free press, we still have a First Amendment, we still have the freedom to speak, but we have to defend it... Dictatorships do start by a crackdown on the press, a crackdown on education, a crackdown on the judiciary.”

6. The Role of Courage and Dissent in Democracy

Concluding the discussion, both hosts advocate for courageous dissent and active civic engagement as bulwarks against authoritarianism. Rubin calls for unwavering honesty and accountability:

Jamie Rubin [19:28]: “Do what we're doing, which is not be afraid to speak up, to hold government to account.”

Amanpour echoes the necessity of a free and fearless press, reminding listeners that democracy thrives on the ability to disagree and challenge power structures without fear of retribution.

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Amanpour and Rubin weave together personal anecdotes, expert analysis, and listener interactions to provide a multifaceted examination of America's current political climate and its implications for global stability. Their discussions underscore the fragility of democratic institutions and the crucial role of informed and active citizenry in safeguarding against authoritarian tendencies.

By addressing each question with depth and clarity, Amanpour and Rubin not only inform but also inspire their audience to engage thoughtfully with the pressing issues of our time. This episode serves as a timely reminder of the ongoing struggles to maintain democratic values in an increasingly polarized and unpredictable world.

Transcript

[Jamie Rubin]

This is a global player original podcast.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm in a hotel in Paris. I can manage to get myself boosted.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, they have better WI fi in hotels in Paris. Which hotel are you at, madam?

[Christiane Amanpour]

A very small boutique hotel. Not one of those big fancy schmancy.

[Jamie Rubin]

Is it one that we stayed at?

[Christiane Amanpour]

No, it isn't. This is a whole new hotel.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, isn't that special?

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's a whole new experience, a whole.

[Jamie Rubin]

New Christiane that I know nothing about.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello, and welcome to the bonus episode of Christiane Amanpour presenting the X Files with Jamie Rubin.

[Jamie Rubin]

Who are you? I'm Jamie Rubin and I'm the X in the X Files.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You are. And this is the Q and A episode where we are answering your questions. And we want to thank everybody for sending in so many really interesting, thoughtful, and varied questions. And we're really actually kind of excited to see how deeply you've got into this subject matter and how interested you are and what good questions you have to try to keep moving this ball forward. So please do keep sending them in. You can find us on social media. Our handle is Manpurpod. Or you can email [e-mail] I'm just going to read the first questions because I love this. It's from Sam Bracket, normally from Edinburgh, although currently in Bishkek. He's on email. And a question for you, Jamie. Did you ever want to be. Ha ha, I love this. President of the United States? And to Christiane, would you have supported, encouraged such an ambition? All right, Jamie, be honest. Just be honest now.

[Jamie Rubin]

All right, look, I'll say this. Anybody who's in my business imagines that possibility, but I think my realistic ambition probably was something more like Secretary of State or National Security advis. However, I do remember once in our courtship phase.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You're telling it there before I can.

[Jamie Rubin]

Telling you that you have to accept that I'm never gonna be President of the United States. And the reason is to answer the question. I knew I could never do the political things you need to do to be a successful politician in America. Whether that's fundraising, whether that's being nice to every single person you meet, I.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Can attest to that.

[Jamie Rubin]

Get their votes, and it's just not me. And I think I was always better as someone who develop a subject matter expertise, in this case, the world, and offer that expertise to a president of the United States. So that's the honest answer.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That is an honest answer. And I can actually attest to all that. But I remember when you brought it up to me slightly more emotionally. You were very upset. You said, you said something like, I can't even, I don't even want to go there, but are you going to be upset if I'm not present? I'm like, well, are you kidding me? I don't want to get anywhere near a president. I want to hold presidents accountable. In any event, that's. That was that. And it was pretty funny. And I agree you probably wouldn't have made it. So thank God you're an advisor, because you're good at that. But what I really, really, really love is that Sam is in Bishkek. Do you know where Bishkek is, Jamie?

[Jamie Rubin]

I think it's. It's one of the stands. I think it's Kyrgyzstan.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes. Which used to be Kyrgyzia.

[Jamie Rubin]

Right.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It is a spectacularly beautiful place. I haven't been, but I want to go and I want to ride horses across the plains.

[Jamie Rubin]

Sam, you can ride horses. As I recall, you're a very good rider. Didn't you race as a young lady?

[Christiane Amanpour]

I did as a young girl, not a young lady. It was prepubescent. And then I got too, too, too tall and big and I couldn't continue. But, yes, in Iran, I was a little mini jockey for a while. So. Jamie, this is Temmie on Instagram. How can we stop Trumpism's lasting negative influence on the United States and the world?

[Jamie Rubin]

This is the question that I'm going to be facing every day for the next four years or three and a half years at least. I think Senator Jeff Flake, the former ambassador to Turkey, a prominent Republican under the first Trump administration, wrote a very powerful op ed in one of the major papers in the last few days, urging his Republican colleagues in the Senate to speak up. And he said it makes a difference that governments around the world want to know that President Trump and his team don't represent every American. They don't actually speak for the United States in the broadest sense. They technically do speak for us diplomatically. But in terms of whether they reflect America, Republican senators who disagree with the president on our role in the world, particularly Ukraine, we're where Republican senators now have apparently a piece of legislation with 82 senators to put sanctions on Putin or on countries that buy equipment or oil from Putin that go against the Trump administration seeming free pass to Putin. So I do think that we're going to rely on Republican senators, Republican congressmen, and, of course, the Democratic Party. And the stronger the Democratic Party gets, the more clearly we can hold President Trump to account, put guardrails on his unacceptable actions, and to prevent him from abusing our government in some authoritarian way that he would seem to be happy to do. I would never believe that. I was saying that. I didn't say that under the first Trump term. You know that. Because we used to talk, but when I see tables like that was before.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We learned to talk.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah. I think we. You still knew that I was.

[Christiane Amanpour]

No, actually, we were married for a couple of those years.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yes, that's.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And actually, that's the last time I found you really distraught because you obviously were backing and working and helping Hillary in her campaign and hoping that it would be a Hillary Clinton presidency, and then your world got turned upside down. Yeah. And we spent two years before you moved out.

[Jamie Rubin]

That's right. That's one way of putting it. So my point is that it's up to the rest of America to speak as loudly and exercise our rights. You know, my friend Tom Friedman wrote a column addressing Israelis and Americans, and because he was criticizing both the Netanyahu government and the Trump administration and saying the most important three words in the English language for Americans and Israelis is organize, organize, and organize, because we have to do that if we're going to prevent Trump from ruining our country.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. So, Amina, on Instagram, and I might add, that we've got quite a few questions this week about the Middle East. It's clearly something that is still, you know, troubling so many people around the world, even if they're not intimately involved with that terrible war. So, Amina asks, how can the United States justify support for Israel despite alleged war crimes against Palestinians? So she's probably referring to the allegations by the International Criminal Court. But now we know, as we said in our main episode this week, that the former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and others have said that Israel is now basically committing war crimes, including the denial of food, water, and basic humanitarian aid. But I want to just jump in here, and then, Jamie, you can say, you know, about US Ongoing support. I was speaking to a really amazing woman. Her name is Fiona Hill. She was in the National Security Council advisory during Trump's first term. She's an expert on Russia. But I asked her about all these leaders, whether it's Putin xi, Netanyahu, whether they are calling Trump's bluff and how she views it. And she said, here's the problem. Trump is all about his personal charisma and his personal belief in his personal ability to solve things. And if it doesn't work, either with Putin or Xi or Netanyahu, he steps away because he. It's about him. He's made it so much about him that if it doesn't work in the first instance, he has nowhere to go except to step back and say, well, I tried, and they're all horrible, and they're just gonna have to get on with it, and more and more people are gonna die. And so that's the problem with trying to solve these things in the current iteration of Donald Trump as president. Jamie, what do you think? But more importantly to Amina's questions, how does the US Justify support for Israel under these circumstances?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, it's a tough question. It's not an easy one. We struggled with it during the whole Gaza war. I think there's two answers. One is our support for Israel is not our support for the Netanyahu government, just the way I hope people support America without supporting Trump. That is a complicated question. When you have a close ally, what do you do when you have a government that you fundamentally disagree with? I would say under the Republican administration, it's inconceivable that this administration, even when Trump steps back, will eliminate support for Israel. Remember, he started providing all the weapons that Biden had put on hold the moment he came into office. The weapons to Israel that were put on hold. There weren't that many, but there were some. So I think under a Republican administration, it will not happen. The Republican Party has been fully aligned with the, what I call the Likud version of. Of. Of Israel policy, Netanyahu's policy, for a long. And that is just a reality now. In the Democratic Party, it's more complicated. There is a strong wing of Democratic senators and congressmen who are fed up. They support Israel, the people of Israel. Remember, Israel has two Israels, too. There's the Israel of Tel Aviv and the security establishment that you know that I know that we have friends in that world. They don't agree with what Netanyahu is doing. They were on the streets protesting Netanyahu before the Gaza war for what he was doing internally. And those people, we don't want to eliminate our friendship with those people.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Some people are still there. Yeah, some of them are still there and raising their voices again. I have a friend who's a very, very prominent Israeli artist, and I met her at her exhibition at a gallery in London last week. I met up with her again, and she was saying that she was very worried about her country losing its ethics, losing its soul, and that nobody pays attention to the ongoing Israeli opposition to the way this war is going. Although she admitted that for a long, long time Israelis didn't see the full scale of what was happening in Gaza. Obviously clearly they were still, they still don't Christianity, they're traumatized by Hamas attack on October 7, but they still don't see what is actually happening in Israel.

[Jamie Rubin]

Israeli media, as great as it is, you know, there's great newspapers, Haaretz and other. But broadly speaking, Israeli media doesn't cover the horrors of Gaza.

[Christiane Amanpour]

In our first episode, you talked about and it got a lot of attention, an unknown or at least unpublically known ceasefire plan that you and the Biden administration, obviously Secretary Blinken were working on that involved Israeli forces withdrawing a pan Arab force to keep the peace and America organizing it and guaranteeing it, even without, you know, boots on the ground and a path towards a Palestinian state. So here is Peppercorn on Instagram again. I love the name Peppercorn. Why didn't Biden or Harris talk more about this Gaza ceasefire or a Gaza ceasefire deal in the election campaign? Could it have won pro Palestinian votes who you know, were very loud in not wanting to vote for the Democrats because of this war, their support for the war?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, this is the classic case of politics where sometimes the people who are closest to you are your biggest adversaries areas politically. There were a whole group of people on the left of center who were so furious about the war in Gaza that they either didn't vote or somehow found it in their logic to say that Trump would be better cuz at least he'd be new and different. And now of course, they've discovered that he's not better, that he's far worse, that at least under Biden we were trying to.

[Christiane Amanpour]

How is he worse? Just let me ask because there are still people being killed, there's still no ceasefire. There's still, you know, Netanyahu. That's how he's worked to his very, very, you know, far right. But how is he worse? Tell me, I want you to spell it out.

[Jamie Rubin]

I'll be very specific. We before the election were putting pressure on Israel to accept an end to the war by removing all of their forces from Gaza.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay.

[Jamie Rubin]

And putting in place and allowing an.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Why didn't you talk about it? Why didn't Biden talk about it?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, I'll tell you what. I discovered that Kamala Harris and the vice presidential candidate didn't go to any of the universities during in Wisconsin or Michigan. They were afraid to go there because of the protesters. So this is my point. These protesters who think they're doing the Lord's work sometimes shoot America and Israel and the Palestinians in the foot because they so alienated and were so angry at Biden that they couldn't see clearly enough that had Trump been defeated that there would be a chance to end the war. We talked about it to some degree. We had ceasefires in place. You remember the final ceasefire that allowed hostages to get in place was done in the final days of the Biden administration.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I know, but that was on Facebook.

[Jamie Rubin]

Had we won the election, it was our intention to have a public event in which this proposal that Tony Blinken was preparing would be imposed on the two sides, Israel.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the question is, why not before the election? Why not as part of your plan for. For this, for ending this war?

[Jamie Rubin]

I don't think the politicians running the campaign understood how to talk about Gaza in a persuasive way. That was one of the things I've been trained to do since the years of the Netanyahu government under President Clinton. I know how to talk about Israel without alienating Jewish American voters. And while appealing to those who might, might be pro Palestinian the way that Clinton was beloved by Palestinians and Israelis. That's something I was trained to do, for better or worse. The political operatives were so afraid of raising the subject of Gaza because of the protesters, because they were going to throw blood on the. On Kamala Harris or find another way to raise their issue, red paint, whatever it would be. And that's what politicians do when they are afraid. Because extremists dominate the debate. Far far left extremists dominated the debate. Just the way far far left extremists came out at Harvard blaming the Israelis for October 7th. And they dominate the debate and cause untold damage to.

[Christiane Amanpour]

This is Adriana on email. I used to be an international reporter in Washington D.C. i miss Jamie's professionalism and knowledge from his time as spokesperson of the Department of State. Question for you both. The actions of the current president of the US Align with dictators of the world playbook. Do you fear that the United States could become a dictatorship over to you?

[Jamie Rubin]

Do I fear it? Not really. I fear that we are damaging our reputation as the greatest and first democracy in the world. I fear we are damaging our reputation as a world leader, a country that acts not just in its own self interest, but in an enlightened self interest to defend Europeans, to defend Asians so that they could rebuild their continents after World War II to go to war on behalf of the Bosnian Muslims to go to war on behalf of the Kosovar Albanians, not for any gain, but because it was the right thing to do. That wouldn't happen under a Trump administration. So that version of America is being discredited. But do I believe that this constitutes a dictatorship? Not yet. Not yet. Remember in the famous movie, what was it, Gladiator, he always ends the phrases by saying, not yet. Well, not yet. I think the courts and the Democrats, I hope, will win next November, and the guardrails will be stronger and not yet. But it's now, for the first time, a legitimate question. If you asked that question four years ago, I don't think it's a legitimate. Well, it's legitimate. Every question is legitimate. But it's not a plausible question. It's not a real question.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, but it wouldn't be a plausible question under Biden, who gave his whole raison d' etre as a president to defend democracy. People are asking about under Trump. So I want to say that, first of all, I think Greece was the world's first democracy. But I get your point, since you were talking about Europe, and I'm in Europe, first country.

[Jamie Rubin]

Athens was just a city state.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh, right. But they were the first democracies.

[Jamie Rubin]

You were a city state, not a country.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right, all right. Don't be picky. But listen, Adriana has a point. And as you say, not yet, and the glass is still half full. As I said at Harvard when I gave the graduation speech, I said, we still have a free press, we still have a First Amendment, we still have the freedom to speak, but we have to defend it, otherwise we will be as much to blame if we lose it. And I also said that, you know, dictatorships do start by a crackdown on the press, a crackdown on education, a crackdown on the judiciary. So this is what is happening, but as you say, not yet. And America is way more developed in terms of its democratic experience than some.

[Jamie Rubin]

Let me just add a point there, if I could. One of the qualities that makes me fear that we are in a mini McCarthy era is the fear. So McCarthy era was where people were accusing each other of being communists or being friends of communists, and there was blacklists and a red scare and all that. But mostly what people. During the Cold War, people remember it because it was a time when people were afraid to speak their minds. They were afraid to be honest. They were afraid to criticize their government for being accused of being a commie. All right, Donald Trump in his attack on law firms and attack on Harvard in his attack on any number of political leaders would like to make everyone afraid. And so the real response to a Trump administration and this behavior is to do what we're doing, which is not be afraid to speak up, to hold government to account. I'm doing that in a way that I didn't used to do. Remember, when I left government, most of the time I was out there defending the United States after 9, 11, even though I was a private citizen, because. Because we had been attacked, but now we are the aggressor in the world, at least in economic warfare. So far, not militarily, although he's even threatened that to get Greenland and Panama Canal. So, you know, this is a time for people to, as Tom Friedman says, organize, organize, organize. And as you and I try to do, is to speak up, hold the Trump administration to account, and be honest, and don't be afraid.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, well, you know what? That was also part of my message to the graduates at Harvard. And I quoted Edward R. Moore, who is essentially the patron saint of broadcast journalism. He was a phenomenal war correspondent during World War II, and then he came back to the US and found he had to stand up against McCarthyism and McCarthy because he was doing, you know, the whole Red Scare and driving people out of jobs and blacklisting them. And I quoted Morrow saying, no one man slash person can, you know, control all the masses. I'm paraphrasing right now. Or tyrannize a whole nation unless we are all his, her accomplices. And that's the message. We have to be courageous, have the courage of our convictions, agree where it's right, disagree where it's not, and never forget that dissent is not disloyalty. It's a vital, vital part of democracy and civil society. Would you say that's a good place to end, Jamie?

[Jamie Rubin]

Amen.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm just giving you a little praise of my graduation speech. Thank you all. That's the end of our bonus episode. This is your Q and A's or your Q's, Ras. I'm Christiane Amanpour presenting the X Files with Jamie Rubin. And remember, we always want to answer your questions, so keep them coming in. And even if we don't answer them immediately, we'll try to answer them the following week. You can follow us, of course, on all the major social media platforms. Our hands is @amanpourpod and our email. We're amanpourpodlobal.com so our next episode is on Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcast, remember, you can listen for free on Global Player. You can download it from the App Store or go to globalplayer.com Bye. Bye, Jamie. Bye. Bye from Paris.

[Jamie Rubin]

Goodbye from Carmela's kitchen.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Bye. How's the wi fi over there?

[Jamie Rubin]

It's not as good as it should be. This is a Global Player original podcast.