← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Q&A: Is Trump governing like an Iranian Ayatollah?
00:24:55
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- [00:03]
Jamie Rubin
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:10]
Christiane Amanpour
Hello and welcome to the bonus episode of the X Files with me, Christiane Awanpour and Jamie Rubin. This is our Q and A episode where we answer your questions and thank you. Right. To everyone who sent in questions.
- [00:22]
Jamie Rubin
Absolutely. We want questions. We want more questions and questions.
- [00:25]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, that's Jamie being funny. You can find us on social media. Our handle is Manpurpod or, or email us. We're amanpodlobal.com and I'm also excited to announce that. We're excited to announce you can watch these bonus episodes now on YouTube because they are now being televised. The question and answer is being televised, which is different than the revolution is televised. You just search Christiana Monpour presents on YouTube and subscribe to the channel so that you don't miss an episode. So let's get started. Okay, Jamie, I am going to give you the first question, all right?
- [01:02]
Jamie Rubin
This comes from Marianne on email and she asks a very good question. With the situation in Gaza getting even worse, how is it possible that a democratic government, Israel's, can block international journalists from reporting from Gaza directly as eyewitnesses? I don't know. Look, Israel is a democracy. It's a democracy that's undergoing terrible trauma right now. And the trauma includes the fact that the Prime Minister is trying to prevent the world from finding out what's going on in Gaza. I have two things to say about that. Number one, we still find out quite a bit because in the modern era it's possible to get information, pictures, sound, truth out of Gaza. Not as good as it would be, not as complete, as comprehensive as it would be if there were real journalists, international journalists there, real journals from legacy media, the ones who've done this before, people like my ex wife, Christiane Amanpour. Not that I want you to go to Gaza necessarily, only if you want to go, but they should be allowed to go. I was powerfully affected by an op ed in the New York Times. My regular reading the New York Times from a commander who served in Gaza twice or three times and has now called on all of his reservists to not report for duty. So this is a probably it's an Israeli idf, an Israeli IDF reservist who's a prominent commander, who's probably a conservative, probably even voted for the Netanyahu government for all I know, but has, after watching what went on and being proud of the work that he did initially in Gaza to defeat Hamas, which they did, and frankly killed the leading members of Hamas who conducted the massacre that led to this war and this horror for the people of Gaza. He realizes that this is not for any good purpose anymore, that this is only continuing because it's in the interest of the Netanyahu government to have the war continue because any alternative in his mind is worse for him, not for the people of Gaza. So that democratic power is going to reveal itself someday, not soon enough. But I feel that that democratic government will not tolerate indefinitely this behavior, including the denial, access to journalists.
- [03:25]
Christiane Amanpour
You're still kind. I think Israel is headed towards being at the very least an illiberal democracy and the very worst, you know, nationalistic, extremist kind of government that really thrives on killing and silencing the messenger. And I use that word advisedly because yes, we legacy media from the outside have not been allowed in. And yes, Israeli media have not been allowed in except for very limited, highly managed, so called embeds with Israeli forces. But for two plus years, nearly two years of this round of war, there have been the most incredible, brave, phenomenal colleagues that we have. Palestinian journalists who work for us as stringers and who also work for things like the ap, Al Jazeera and others. And they are, listen to me, being deliberately targeted and killed. And the last round of killing around a hospital shelter where they were gathered was evidence of this, if we needed any more evidence. And this is a terrible thing. As Jamie said, this government in Israel does not want the world to know what's going on. And I will add one thing. In the old days, the US and other democracies used to actually be moved by what journalists did. And particularly the pictures journalists were able to show your boss, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright used to call CNN the 16th member of the Security Council. People used to call the phenomenon the CNN factor effect. And what I'm telling you is that without the presence of external journalists, no matter how great a job, and they are doing a great job, the Palestinians inside Gaza at terrible risk, including of hunger and starvation right now, please. They are not immune from what's happening to the rest of the civilians there. But when we did it in full force in Bosnia, in Somalia, in other places, it made the world sit up and take notice. People could not, particularly, democracies could not turn away when they saw wholesale slaughter being committed on television in real time. And it's a terrible crisis that's going on, including crimes that are terrible against the Palestinians but terrible for Israel as well. Hostages are not back, there is no ceasefire and Israel is being turned into a pariah from the inside, without any of the normal checks and balances that a free press can bring. That's what I believe.
- [05:58]
Jamie Rubin
Well, powerful stuff. Let's turn to the other war. I'm gonna ask this one just so that you can take a breath after.
- [06:04]
Christiane Amanpour
That, and then I'll pontificate again.
- [06:06]
Jamie Rubin
Yes, please. Liam ON email asks. The focus of achieving peace in Ukraine is on security guarantees. The suggestion seems to be a military presence by European forces, maybe Canadians, that would be on the ground in Ukraine. Ukraine that would be backstopped by the US in the event of an attack by Russia. The questioner wants to know whether. Isn't this NATO in another name? Yes and no. Look, NATO is the premier military alliance. Participation in NATO commits countries to come to the defense of their allies all around the NATO alliance, which goes from, you know, Canada, North America, to the Nordic countries now to Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, et cetera. So Ukraine wouldn't be a member of NATO. They wouldn't be asked to come to the defense of Spain or Portugal or Greece or Turkey. But there is a presumption that in order to deter Russia from just resting and refitting and rearming and then reinvading, they need to know that next time it will be even worse for them. That they won't face not only Ukraine rearmed and strengthened, but also European countries with all the attendant risks that involves of war with NATO and war with countries that have modern militaries as powerful, if not more powerful than Russia. So that's the idea as a deterrent. It's not the same as NATO, but it has aspects of it. That's why it's called the security guarantee. That's what will be necessary if we want to end this terrible war. And yes, it's a risk, but I think the risk of letting Russia dominate Europe and sending a message to the likes of Xi Jinping that he can dominate Asia and invade Taiwan are great risks for our world. And bullies, in my experience, when confronted with force and strength, back down. And that's what I believe Putin would do. If we did that security guarantee and we had that strength in Ukraine, he wouldn't invade again.
- [08:09]
Christiane Amanpour
Instead, the bully is still running the show. And the rule breaker, he and those inside Israel as well, and obviously on the Palestinian territor in terms of Hamas, are still running the show. And even after the Alaska summit, when there was a whole consensus about security guarantees again. Now Putin has kept saying no to any foreign forces, no European forces, unless.
- [08:34]
Jamie Rubin
The Russians can decide on it. They want to be part of the decision making. Which destroys the whole point.
- [08:39]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. And they've just said no, no, no. So there is literally no opening from Russia for any kind of resolution. Not a ceasefire. They say no to that. Not a pe. He doesn't want to meet with Zelensky because he doesn't even consider Ukraine to be a country. Not a security guarantee that involves these forces, the coalition of the willing to be able to go and make sure. And let's not forget, because this is the tragedy. Back in 1994, the United States, Ukraine and Russia did have what they called the Budapest Memorandum in which they agreed to guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty if it would. And it was asked to give up its missiles and its nuclear weapons to Russia. It was meant to guarantee their security. Russia was meant to guarantee their security and guarantee not to invade uk, the.
- [09:26]
Jamie Rubin
US I mean, it was.
- [09:27]
Christiane Amanpour
And it just didn't happen.
- [09:28]
Jamie Rubin
Didn't happen. And here we are in 2014 and it didn't happen after that. But as bad as it is, I should say, as having been part of the Biden administration, I'm quite proud of President Biden's leadership of NATO and the world in responding to Russia's invasion.
- [09:45]
Christiane Amanpour
This time that's different. They helped Russia, Ukraine, but still not enough. But there's still nothing on the peace.
- [09:51]
Jamie Rubin
Table but to say. And a lot of people didn't want to do this. Donald Trump doesn't want to do it. Many countries around the world wouldn't have done it. And it was President Biden who frankly was old enough to remember the post World War II period and combined his age with his current knowledge of leaders in Europe and gathered together a dramatic support for Ukraine. Not enough. Maybe not as quickly.
- [10:13]
Christiane Amanpour
Now that he has to write the final chapter.
- [10:14]
Jamie Rubin
I agree. But Biden deserves credit for for leading the world in responding to the 2022. That is true in my opinion.
- [10:25]
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- [10:27]
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- [10:29]
Christiane Amanpour
I would have guessed 27. You guys are too sweet.
- [10:32]
Jamie Rubin
Sure.
- [10:32]
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Christiane Amanpour
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- [10:34]
Jamie Rubin
Is something wrong, Ned? Why would you ask?
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- [10:59]
Christiane Amanpour
Negin on email asks. As a Persian Canadian, I spent precious childhood and teen years in the Iranian Revolution of 1978. Does she mean after or before? I can see this new Trump American regime behaving more and more identically to Khomeini's Islamic regime. Christiane, do you see any similarities between the regimes? And do you believe the American people will eventually find their way out of this mess? Well, first, will the Iranian people be able to find their way out of this mess? And they are very upset with their regime and more and more just do not want to be ruled by a theocratic regime that doesn't give them the human and political rights that they deserve. And even the 12 Day War, so called war, the strikes by Israel and the United States against Iran did not cause a change of regime as Israel and the United States hoped, even though they said that that wasn't their aim, but they hoped it would be a byproduct. It didn't happen because they turned inwards and more nationalist. We don't know what the next chapters are going to be, but for the moment, that's the reality there. Do I see any similarities between Iran and the current regime in the United States? You say regime. Some people might say regime. You know, it's democratically elected. Let us not forget that the majority of the American people voted for Trump, knowing all the warts and all, and they voted for him, asking for really something. Two important things. One, deportations and an immigration control. And the other, inflation and a better economy. We'll see where that all gets us. But what Trump is doing is increasingly imitating authoritarian regimes. I mean, we're not gonna go so far as saying he's North Korea, not even Iran, but certainly illiberal democracies. You can see that the Trump administration is acting, whether it's consciously taking a page out of those playbooks in Hungary and elsewhere, it's certainly acting out whether it's using paramilitary forces for deportations or to take people off the streets of the United States, ordinary students, whether it's closing down and threatening media, universities and all the other things, and trying to change history with its assault on the Smithsonian Museum, for instance, taking away any reference to slavery, even, or the American.
- [13:20]
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- [13:23]
Christiane Amanpour
I mean, the whole thing is a re. An attempt to reorder and rewrite American history and using tools to intimidate and cow people into not resisting. So, you know, this is a, this is not good from the most important country in the world, certainly as a superpower, but also the country that has always held itself up to be the, the standard bearer and the global example of, you know, enlightened liberal values. And by liberal, that means free. Yeah, it means in, in Latin, liber means free.
- [14:01]
Jamie Rubin
So I would say two things about this question. Number one, you and I, during our marriage, observed Iran up close. We went there, we met and spoke to and worked on that subject extensively, as we've told in previous podcasts. And I came to conclusion that as much as many, many people around the world want to see this regime changed, that it won't happen until there's a change in this basic formula. And the formula is the number of Iranians prepared to come out into the streets and risk their lives versus the number of Iranian officials and security services willing to shoot them. And as long as there are tens of thousands of Iranian Basij and IRGC and other regime enforcers willing to shoot their fellow Iranians on the streets, you're gonna need millions and millions of people to confront them. And until that changes, we're not gonna see a real change in the government there. As far as the link to the United States, everything you said is true. I should also point out, as we did in the main episode, that there is a court system in the United States. There are going to be elections in a year and these illiberal tendencies which you correctly identified, I hope will be counteracted by court decisions that are approved by the Supreme Court, I hope, and elections which take the power back. And I should point out that the Trump Inc. Folks are running around saying they know they only really have another year to run amok, the Trump Inc. People, because they fear as well that the Democrats are going to win back at least the House and possibly more. And that this all Republican government, Congress, executive branch, judiciary, is going to come to an end. It's a unique moment in our history and it's, as you say, happened because of an election. And it is, as a Democrat, extremely painful. But I believe that. But as an optimist, I have to believe and want to believe and do believe that there will be a reaction. The movement is too far of the pendulum to the right, to the illiberal side of the political equation for most Americans to tolerate. That's my belief.
- [16:22]
Christiane Amanpour
So I want to ask you then one of the questions that's sort of, you know, relevant here to this last one that you've just talked about. Frank, on YouTube asked why have Democrats and other left leaning parties around the world moved to the political center?
- [16:35]
Jamie Rubin
All right, I have a good answer for that. Cuz we want to win. And there's been always this debate in the Democratic Party and the left saying if you can be very left and be very pro socialism, say, or so so, you know, sort of Social Democrat, that you can get more voters out and defeat the Republicans. That's one theory. The other theory that I believe is that you have to move to the center because our country is a centrist country and that there are are so many independents in our country who will not vote for someone who's prominently from the far left. And so if we want to win elections, we need to move to the center. And we didn't move far enough to the center and we suffered the consequences. There's an election in New York, people will say of a mayoral candidate, that's New York City, that's not America. And so I believe by moving to the center and being reflecting a larger proportion of the American people, we can win our elections. Think about it this way. 45% are gonna vote Republican, 45% are gonna vote Democratic. The election is about the middle 10%. And by going to the center, I think we have a better chance of winning them. That's why.
- [17:50]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay, next question you read is Veronique. Very similar question to Maggie. One's on email, one's on Instagram.
- [17:56]
Jamie Rubin
Alright, so. And you're Maggie and Veronique are asking about Trump and Russia, about the fact that Trump tends to be tough on the weak but soft on the strong. Instead of counting sheep, he counts the number of deadlines given to Russia, a country that hasn't faced any tariffs. Why does he keep expending these deadlines?
- [18:14]
Christiane Amanpour
Look, why does he take such a soft approach?
- [18:16]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, it's a good question and only he knows the answer. But let me speculate. I think that Donald Trump has always had a soft spot for authoritarian leaders. He wants to be an authoritarian leader. He was a CEO, he runs his family, his company, and now wants to run the country the same way. As a CEO who makes decisions and everyone just follows his orders. That's not what Democratic leaders can do. And he's learning that he can't always succeed in every whim he has, but he tries. So he respects Putin. And I think, and this is against Xi and Xi, and this is where I was getting to. I think his notion of foreign affairs and world affairs is premised on the idea that someday he and Putin and Xi will sit down in a meeting. The great trilateral summit that he will wanna promote for years and years is the greatest thing that ever happened.
- [19:11]
Christiane Amanpour
And one other pragmatic and logistical thing is that he does believe in the power of self and his personal power because of the charisma and the power and the personality that he believes he has to pick up a phone. And you've heard him say it many times, I can end this in 24 hours. I can end that in two days. I can do this, I can do that. But the problem is it doesn't work like that in the real world, especially when the opponents or the adversaries have a much clearer vision of what they want and a much more integrated way of getting it. So people have said Trump may, as you say, have identified issues, but does not have the diplomatic tools to actually get it done because A, he's eviscerated the State Department, the experts, all the rest of it.
- [19:57]
Jamie Rubin
Allies, doesn't love the allies, and B.
- [20:00]
Christiane Amanpour
He just thinks that by phone calls he can do it.
- [20:01]
Jamie Rubin
And more importantly also, he actually believes that Vladimir Putin will be affected by his flattery. So he flattered him. He had planes fly over, he drove him in a car. He said, it's an honor to have you with us.
- [20:15]
Christiane Amanpour
This is in Alaska.
- [20:16]
Jamie Rubin
In Alaska. And he thinks that would change Putin's attitude. Cuz maybe it would change his attitude. As we've learned, foreign leaders have learned, if you flatter Trump, he's gonna be softer on you. But unfortunately, bullies like Vladimir Putin, hardboiled Kremlin, former KGB agents, and Communist Party leaders like Xi Jinping aren't going to be flattered into concessions.
- [20:39]
Christiane Amanpour
Can I just say that our producer pointed out that during the Beijing summit and the war parade, A, it was a much bigger military parade than Trump mustered in Washington for his birthday. But B, Xi Jinping was wearing the traditional Mao suit. Right? He wasn't wearing a business suit like other leaders were. And like he usually does now, maybe it's because it's a war display or whatever, but he was dressed to kill, so to speak.
- [21:05]
Jamie Rubin
And it's a good point, because Xi Jinping is following the path of Mao leader for life, leader for life, like Mao, and eliminating the consensus system that the Chinese used to be praised for, for having a, you know, a system of passing on leadership to the younger generation. And people thought it was cool. They had a big. And these 10 guys would figure out what to do and be able to launch strategic decisions and implement them instead. This is one man rule. It's an emperor. An emperor whose clothing is revealing.
- [21:40]
Christiane Amanpour
Exactly. That's good. It's a good metaphor you got in there. Now, Rosemary on Instagram asks, is the time of the west waning and the time of the east rising. I feel we've answered that question with all of this talk about China.
- [21:53]
Jamie Rubin
It might be, but I pray and hope it won't be if we turn things around in the United States. Only America as the indispensable nation that it remains the only country that can get the world to do things if it turns things around. We have the allies, we have the democratic government, we have the economic power, we have the military alliances to prevent the rise of a Communist Party led China ruling the world. We can do that only if we change our.
- [22:22]
Christiane Amanpour
If we keep all of that. Yes, that cohesion with the allies and all the rest of it. Okay, so Bonnie on Instagram is asking what's your advice for young people looking to get into Journal? Bonnie, I've asked this a lot and I understand why I get this question. I just think young people should. It's a great profession, it's a noble profession, It's a vital profession. Even in times where journalists get the brunt end of the stick for doing their job, even in the times of fake news, even in the times of social media platforms, in all the challenges that we're facing, not to mention financial hardship and killing off local news and all the rest of it, it is vital and people need to keep doing it somehow because it's the only thing that holds power accountable. And it does. And it's the only thing that props up a healthy democracy. All countries that have a healthy media environment are much better off in all aspects and indicators than those who don't. And it's also we become the eyes and the ears of people who can't and shouldn't and won't get up and go to all these places and figure out what's going on for themselves. So it's a very, very important, important business. It's an important job and the whole world, particularly our own societies will be poorer if more people don't get into it. So get into it despite the challenges.
- [23:40]
Jamie Rubin
I would make one thing comment about this. I'm sort of a semi been a journalist from this far. Not like you, Christiane, but I read an article a few days ago about a former Wall street banker stock trader who was making millions a year and.
- [23:58]
Christiane Amanpour
Decided, oh, it's so good.
- [23:59]
Jamie Rubin
And he left his job and he's become an emergency medical expert. And he has the most exciting and rewarding life he dreamed of because he is doing something he's proud of.
- [24:13]
Christiane Amanpour
I'm gonna try to interview him. It's a great article, great story and.
- [24:16]
Jamie Rubin
That'S the reason to be in professions like journalism because you get up in the morning, you're proud of what you're doing.
- [24:22]
Christiane Amanpour
That's for us, you know, purpose driven life.
- [24:25]
Jamie Rubin
But it's also meaningful for people and it's both things. And that's a good reason to be in journalism or other professions where you can be proud of it.
- [24:33]
Christiane Amanpour
And on that note, thank you for listening to the bonus episode of our Q and A session and for the first time in Vision so to speak on YouTube with me, Cristiana Monpour and Jamie Rubin. So remember, if you have any questions for us that you'd like to answer next time around, just keep them coming in on Instagram, email, wherever you want to do it all over social media. We are on all the platforms. Our handle is amanpoolpod. Our email is amonpopad global.com Our next episode is on Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcast, remember, you can listen for free on global player and you can also download it from the app store or go to globalplayer.com thank you and bye bye.
- [25:12]
Jamie Rubin
Goodbye From London.
- [25:19]
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- [25:22]
Christiane Amanpour
I would have guessed 27. You guys are too sweet.
- [25:25]
Jamie Rubin
Sure.
- [25:25]
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- [25:27]
Jamie Rubin
Um, is something wrong, Ned? Why would you ask?
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- [25:51]
Jamie Rubin
This is a global player original podcast.
- [25:55]
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- [25:57]
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- [25:59]
Christiane Amanpour
I would have guessed 27. You guys are too sweet.
- [26:01]
Jamie Rubin
Sure.
- [26:02]
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Jamie Rubin
Is something wrong, Ned? Why would you ask?
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