← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Q&A: Why is Israel allowed to have nuclear weapons?
00:23:24
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- [00:03]
Jamie Rubin
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:09]
Christiane Amanpour
Hello everyone, and welcome to our bonus episode where we answer your questions and your queries and thanks for all the ones that you send us. We try to do the best we can in getting to all or most of them. So let's get started. So Jamie, let's get started on the questions. I'm going to ask you this one because I think you're the best position to answer this. It's from Peter. Greetings from Cape Town. He says, one of my most favorite cities in the world. That's just an aside. That's me, not him. He says, I'm not sure that I've heard a satisfactory answer as to why Israel is allowed to have nuclear weapons, not be a member of the, he says iaea, but maybe he means the npt and. And no one, especially in the west, speaks out against it. For me, it is a justice issue. Not that I'm a fan of theirs, but why would Russia and China not make a bigger deal of it? Over to you, Jamie.
- [01:05]
Jamie Rubin
Great. It's good that this question came from Cape Town because actually the only time the world thought Israel tested a nuclear weapon was in the ocean outside South Africa with the support of the South African white minority government back in the day. But look, this is a hard one. There is no satisfactory answer. Peter, it's not going to satisfy you, but here's the answer. Israel is not a member of the Non Proliferation Treaty. Pakistan is not a member of the Non Proliferation Treaty. India is not a member of the Non Proliferation Treaty. All three of them are nuclear weapons states, but Israel doesn't say it is. Pakistan and India promote the huge nuclear arsenals each of them have. So Israel isn't the only country that's not a member of the NPT that is allowed to have nuclear weapons. And remember, there's no one, by the.
- [02:00]
Christiane Amanpour
Way, North Korea too, right?
- [02:03]
Jamie Rubin
They pulled out. That's true. Good point. But they were part of it and then they pulled out and that was a whole collapse. These three have never joined the IAEA or the npt. North Korea was part of the iaea, so why don't people speak out against it? Well, let's be as frank as we can because this is a podcast. Israel is not a member of a treaty, so it's not violating a treaty. That's one point. Number two, the countries that get a lot of pressure to not become nuclear are the countries that the world worries about. And when I say the world, I mean Europe, Asia, the United States. Look at North Korea. They look at Iran's overall behavior in the world. Iran sponsoring terrorist organizations, North Korea being led by a crazy dictator and having started a war in North Korea invading South Korea. So when those countries want to join the so called international community and get support for foreign assistance, for economic openings for trade, for all the benefits of the modern world, the rest of the world says, wait a minute, we're not going to do that if you're building nuclear weapons. And then they put pressure on those countries not to build nuclear weapons. For better or worse, Israel is part of the modern world. For example, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development is the leading countries of the world, the oecd. I worked there for a year. Israel's a member of that. So it doesn't acknowledge its weapons, it doesn't brandish its weapons, and it doesn't violate a treaty by having the weapons we think it has. And thus. And people don't think it's worth the trouble of trying to tell them not to have nuclear weapons because they've got a lot of other things they want to get Israel to do, like stop the war in Gaza. But for the listeners, simple answer. Israel is like India and Pakistan, non members of any treaty, unlike India and Pakistan, however, they don't brandish or promote or claim to be a nuclear weapons state.
- [04:06]
Christiane Amanpour
I would just also add, and I think you can't get away from it, that before this terrible Gaza war, before October 7, Israel was treated as a special case because of its history. And that's the fact and that's the truth. It was considered just let them do it and they'll be responsible, I think, and I don't know whether you agree, Jamie, but the global condemnation of Israel after this terrible slaughter that's going on in Gaza is shifting Israel's perception in the world, even amongst those who are willing to give it a break and the benefit of the doubt. And I wonder, Jamie, how long you think this, you know, outlier behavior. Does Israel really want to be compared with India, Pakistan, North Korea and all the rest? I don't know. Anyway, I just think that the ground is shifting in terms of, well, you're right.
- [04:56]
Jamie Rubin
I think the ground began shifting, frankly, in 1982. Prior to 1982, Israel was the underdog. Was the David fighting the Goliath of five Arab countries, invading it in 1948 and attacking it on Yom Kippur in 1973. After Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the perception was no longer that Israel was an underdog. So first it lost its underdog status by becoming more powerful. And now it's lost its status as a respected member of the international community because its government has conducted an unnecessary slaughter in Gaza long after any logical rational response to the October 7th attacks was, was taking place. So I think you're right that it is losing steam internationally. No question. And now let's ask another question. Alan on email asks, I grew up in the Middle east and I'm curious to hear Christiane provide some commentary on the role that cultural differences have played and are probably overlooked in US Relations with Iran. How will the themes of honor, shame and betrayal of the Israeli and US Bombing campaigns be happening in the context of the Omani talks? Even though everyone could claim victory and save face, it seems the long term damage is done in a long line of betrayals, espionage, proxy wars and backstabbing.
- [06:20]
Christiane Amanpour
So look, there's a lot in that question. I'm just going to take the cultural differences for a moment. I think that obviously there are cultural differences between, you know, any part of the world and another part of the world. But I think what's often overlooked is actually how much, and I'm now talking about ordinary Iranians are similar to ordinary Americans and ordinary Westerners in that they are highly educated, they have similar middle class aspirations, they're highly tech oriented. In fact, many of the Iranian diaspora play huge and constructive, well, huge parts in the great capitalistic enterprise of America right now, which is the tech sector. Iranians play a huge part, whether they're CEOs, CTOs, you know, Chief engineers or all of that kind of stuff, as well as so many other professions. So I think that, you know, of all the people who America and the Western could be logically allied with in the Middle east, it's not necessarily the Arab nations because they've shown a lot of hatred for the US in the past, but actually the Iranian people. And that would happen were it not for the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Now, on the other issue, I do think, and I've talked to so many people, there was a lot of hope amongst certain people, including exiles, that perhaps this 12 day, and I'm not gonna call it a war, cause it wasn't, it was an aerial bombardment by one country on another. And the response that country on another, it wasn't a ground war, it was an, you know, an aerial campaign. And many people outside for sure have been waiting and inside for something to dislodge the Islamic Republic or to make it, you know, change its stripes so that it'll give people more freedom, more economic prosperity, more hope, more connection with the rest of the world. But, and this is a big but, and I had to ask a lot of people to make sure that I was getting the right story. Nobody, but nobody who I spoke to wanted it to happen this way. A, they did not want to have a foreign power or two foreign powers bomb them and thus think they could change not just the nuclear physical nature of the situation, but also their government. And they became very patriotic and very nationalistic. And as we've discussed in the previous question, they especially don't want Israel coming to their rescue at a time when Israel is bombing and killing their Muslim brethren in Gaza. So it's very, very complex. Plus, and we're going to discuss this more when we speak with former Secretary of State Antony Blinken, what are the parameters around any new nuclear deal that could, you know, could take the temperature down then and now and in the future? You'll have to wait till our next episode. But yeah, it's a very complicated situation.
- [09:14]
Jamie Rubin
Let me, before asking you another question, I'm gonna just make a brief comment on that. You know, the United States has this history with Iran, beginning in the hostage crisis. The regime promotes hatred by promoting people to protest death to America, death to Israel. That isn't the view of the Iranian people, but it's what people see on their TV screens. That's what the Iranian regime wants. There's a lot of betrayal, a lot of proxy wars, a lot of espionage, a lot of backst stabbing on all sides. You know, Iran thought it could get away with having Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis fight the Israelis and they could be safe in Iran. That was the way they approached things for the last 25 years. And now they found out they can't do that. So there's a lot of history. And I've, as you remember in the Iran episode, I don't believe the regime is tottering. I don't believe it was about to fall. And as you point out, it was definitely not about to fall as a result of Israeli bombing. In fact, their one attempt at regime change, the attack on prison. It's a dramatic story in the New York Times today about the people who were killed in that attack, prisoners, people visiting prisoners, innocent civilians. I mean, they're infuriated, the average Iranian, by the attack on Ivan prison and who these people were in Israel thinking that they could attack downtown Tehran and kill innocent civilians and prisoners and visitors in even prison and have anything but a backlash. I mean, what are these people thinking who do this targeting and the approval. And then, I mean, it's just, it just defies belief in them thinking. That was a clever move before the.
- [10:58]
Christiane Amanpour
New York Times wrote it. Siamak Namazi wrote it for Time magazine and we posted it on my social media at CNN as well. He was an Iranian American held hostage prisoner for eight years nearly. And he knew some of those people inside. And he wrot wrote immediately afterwards an article about this. And yeah, I mean, the arrogance of thinking that you can swoop in with a fighter jet and apparently bomb the gates to allow the prisoners to leave. What were they thinking? That there wasn't going to be, quote, unquote, collateral damage. More than 70 people were killed. And I took to task the former head of. I think it's Mossad or could it be Shin Bet? I'm not sure Ami Ayalon about it. And Israel. And, and he didn't have an answer. He just thought, well, basically the big answer was we wanted to release prisoners and show people whose side we were on.
- [11:51]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, well, he's normally thought of as a sensible, smart fellow, and that was awful smart answer. All right, all right, let me ask you the next question from Catherine on email saying that she has been a huge fan of yours, Christian, for 30 years. Your ethics as a journalist could not be more important at this time. Could you please cover the history of Yasser Arafat and the plo And I'd like to make a small comment after you.
- [12:15]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, I would say thank you to you, Catherine. That's a great compliment and I don't take that lightly. I feel very, you know, I bear the responsibility of being truthful and, you know, ethical throughout my career. So thank you. On the history of Yasser Arafat and the plo, I've done bits. People have done bits. But you're right, a big story has yet to be done. The history of Yasser Arafat and the PLO today. In retrospect, there were some done by different organizations, including, well, lots of documentaries done in the past. But he was a freedom fighter who then came into the peace process in Oslo, recognized Israel, and shook hands with then Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin on the White House lawn under the auspices of President Clinton. Jamie, take it away.
- [13:09]
Jamie Rubin
All right, well, look, he started out as a terrorist, as often freedom fighters do.
- [13:15]
Christiane Amanpour
No, he started out as a freedom fighter using terrorist methods.
- [13:18]
Jamie Rubin
Well, I, I called it him a terrorist who then ended up as a freedom fighter. When he started to make peace, he actually got some freedom for his people. He did the right thing on the White House lawn with Yitzhak Rabin. And it was a powerful moment, and it was one of those great moments in history in the 90s that I was fortunate enough to be part of the government then. And then, Christiane, you had a couple of testy interviews with him when you asked him hard questions. One of the hardest questions I don't think he can ever really answer is there was a peace process. There was an offer to share Jerusalem, to give back 100% of the land from the west bank in Gaza, to establish a Palestinian state, to come up with an acceptable plan for refugees. And Bill Clinton, Dennis Ross, Madeleine Albright were at Camp David. I wasn't there by then. And then later, the Clinton parameters were put forward and Yasser Arafat said no. Everyone who worked for him, everyone, the current president, Abu Mazen, Mohammed Mahmoud Abbas, supported it. All of the people around him wanted him to say yes, and he said no. And then, ironically, six to nine months later, after Clinton was gone and President Bush was in office, he wanted to say yes, thinking he could turn back the clock. Well, you can't turn back the clock in history. You have important leaders make decisions, and it matters. And his decision. Think about where we would have been 25 years ago if the war, war between Israel and the Palestinians ended. There was a Palestinian state sharing Jerusalem and allowing the Middle east to thrive and have what Bill Clinton called. It was a beautiful line at the White House lawn when Yasser Arafat made peace. The quiet miracle of a normal life. That's what the people of the Middle east don't have because Yasser Arafat made the wrong call in 2000.
- [15:10]
Christiane Amanpour
It. It's very, very, very sad. And by the way, I'm sorry, it's also because of all these settlements, all the wars, all the divisiveness and, sorry, bullheadedness by the Israeli governments of Benjamin.
- [15:25]
Jamie Rubin
Israel and Abraham Barak, on behalf of the Israeli people, offered that peace plan. Something they'll never get again. As good a deal as that?
- [15:32]
Christiane Amanpour
Maybe not, maybe not. But it's. There's plenty of blame to go around.
- [15:36]
Jamie Rubin
He's offered a peace plan by the Israeli government. That's a really important moment. And we can'. Just because we're mad at the Israeli government's current.
- [15:45]
Christiane Amanpour
I agree, I agree. But this particular Israeli government wants no part of peace.
- [15:50]
Jamie Rubin
Absolutely.
- [15:51]
Christiane Amanpour
And they helped sabotage all the peacemakers. So here we go.
- [15:54]
Jamie Rubin
Agreed. But when a different leader was in power, he made that offer, and Yasser Arafat said no.
- [16:06]
Unknown
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- [17:09]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay, let's get to Erica on email as individuals who know the Balkans well, I would like to ask for your opinion about Serbian President Vucic. He often plays two or more sides, the us, the eu, Russia, China, all while claiming a policy of neutrality. How important is he to regional stability? How dangerous is he? How dangerous are his relationships with Dodic and Putin? As we know, Dodic is the Vucic backed President of the Bosnian Serb Republic that was created after the war at the Dayton Peace process. Let me just say that Alexander Vucic is a dyed in the wool Miloseviconian. He was the information Minister during the Kosovo war. He criticized me and CNN by name all the time accusing us of telling lies about the Bosnian war and the Kosovo war. Of course he and his president were telling the lies. Now I believe he is a very serious threat because he does play all sides and because he is a nationalist dressed up in democrats clothing. Because there is a great amount of destabilizing happening in Bosnia through the auspices of Serbia and often in Kosovo as well. But most importantly, his own people, the Serbian people have been in revolt against him and his government for months now. It does not get enough play. But it really does. It all goes back to corruption and the basically a building that was apparently, you know, given to a a favorable company but then collapsed this shelter over a bus or a railway station and killed people. And the Serbian people are demanding accountability, especially young people. And Vucic and his government are trying to hold that off for as long as possible. We'll see. We will see. But I think he's a force for instability in that region.
- [19:04]
Jamie Rubin
Well, in my last round of diplomacy at the State Department, I worked closely with the Balkan governments because that is a place where the problem of disinformation is really a big challenge. And in the course of that, I obviously commented on the diplomacy between the Kosovo of the country and Serbia, which is still ongoing, which Vucic continues to sabotage any effort to make reconciliation and bring Serbia back into the international community. And I think it's a tragedy. Vucic is one of those guys who manages to convince people that he's actually a good guy and that if it weren't for him, things would be worse. Why people fall for that nonsense, I have no idea. But I remember once when I made some comments about Kosovo and Serbia, modern comments on crucial issues. All he wanted to do was remind people of my role back during the. The Kosovo war when I was the spokesman of the State Department. And he said, well, we shouldn't listen to Jamie Rubin because he was part of, you know, the Clinton administration. Well, the same should apply to him. Then. We shouldn't listen to Mr. Vucic because he was part of the Milosevic administration, which fell and was an outcast country at the time because of Milosevic. But I don't play that game. I'll take. Vucic is currently in office and he could make decisions that would bring Serbia out from the col. Make them. As the questioner points out, he plays everybody off against each other. And the proof of that is that Serbia is the only place in Europe where Russian television and RT's Balkan service is allowed to spread poison about the Balkans, about the United States, about the west, through Serbia, because Vucic allows it. And it shouldn't be allowed for a country that wants to join the European Union. And Vucic should be told very directly until they shut down that poison, like every other EU applicant in every other European country has done, that they have no business seeking EU membership. And he is a dangerous player. He plays all sides. He sells weapons to both sides in the Ukraine, Russia war. He thinks everyone's falling for his nonsense. I hope and expect that American diplomats won't fall for it. I sometimes disagree with some of my friends in government who, because of Serbia's power and because of the Serbian economy, want to find ways to use economic, economic benefits for Serbia to bring them around. It's not working until that government really sees that it's not helping its people, it's not helping the Serbs come out from the cold caused by Milosevic and his followers. Then Vucic is going to stay in power and be able to, you know, laugh behind the scenes, playing all sides against each other. It's a tragic. Diplomatic. Diplomatic falsity that is allowed to continue. And I just wish we'd stop it and just speak truth to power. Now, Christiane, ask me the last question.
- [22:11]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay, this is Toki on Instagram. Jamie, why do you call Christiane madam? I'd like to know that as well, frankly.
- [22:20]
Jamie Rubin
Well, there's two reasons, one policy and one personal. So I first saw you, obviously on TV during the Clinton administration and one of your most famous moments was when you in Sarajevo as part of a CNN global town hall and you asked some very difficult questions to Bill Clinton, the president that I was working for. And it was a pretty intense exchange. And I think his answer was something like, there have not been those flip flops, madam.
- [22:48]
Christiane Amanpour
In fact, it was, there have been no flip flops, madam. There have been no constant flip flops, madam. But there was a lot of madam going on.
- [22:55]
Jamie Rubin
So he called you madam. And I kind of got a kick out of that. And then secondly, when we were traveling around Italy one time, we got lost and you called up the hotel manager and asked them to tell us how to get this to the hotel. And I believe he said to you on the phone, which you immediately repeated, the hotel is in front of you, madam. Because we were, I think it was.
- [23:20]
Christiane Amanpour
In, it was in Florence. I remember that now.
- [23:23]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah. So those two reasons, plus I think because you're British and I'm American, madam, sort of, you know, I get a kick.
- [23:30]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, well, you're using a lot and I get a kick out of it, too. Thanks everybody for listening to our bonus episode. Keep your questions coming because we really like to know what's on your mind and we like to try to answer as many of your queries as we possibly can. You can follow us, of course, on all the major social media platforms. Our handle is @amanpourpod and our email, we are amanpourpodlobal.com so our next episode is on Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcast, remember you can listen for free on Global Player. You can download it from the App Store or go to globalplayer.com Goodbye, madam. Yep, goodbye, madam. And goodbye. I'm not going to say sir. Goodbye, Jamie. Goodbye, X. Goodbye, X.
- [24:20]
Unknown
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- [25:21]
Jamie Rubin
This is a Global Player Original podcast.
- [25:25]
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