Podcast Summary

Podcast: Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Episode: Why is the Pope Criticising Trump?
Date: November 18, 2025
Hosts: Christiane Amanpour (B) & Jamie Rubin (A)

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode reflects on three decades since the end of the Bosnian War, analyzing how the conflict’s lessons relate to today’s crises: Ukraine, the Middle East, and migration/immigration battles in the United States under the Trump administration. Central to the conversation is the recent backlash from the Catholic Church, including the Pope, against Trump’s crackdown on migrants—framing it as an essential “pro-life” issue. The hosts draw on their frontline experience and personal ties to the Bosnian conflict to illustrate what makes peace possible—or elusive—in today’s fracturing world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflections on the Bosnian War: Memory, Policy, and Personal Connection

• Personal History: The hosts recall how the Bosnian conflict brought them together—combining the personal and professional in their approach ([03:00]–[03:26]).

• Lessons Learned:

  • US intervention and the use of military force were vital in ending the conflict ([05:07], [07:30]).
  • Limited, strategic force can succeed where endless diplomacy without leverage fails.
  • The power of journalism to reveal the truth: Western leaders, swayed by fears of another Vietnam, delayed action, leading to mass suffering ([05:41]–[07:18]).

• Madeleine Albright's Role: Cited as a driving force pushing Clinton to intervene, showing how persistent civilian leadership and moral clarity can change policy ([07:30]–[08:45]).

• Importance of Diplomacy Backed by Force:

  • The key to peace in Bosnia and Kosovo was mixing hard military power with robust, detailed diplomacy ([11:08]).
  • The Dayton Accords were painstaking, out-of-the-media-soundbite, and driven by unified allied pressure, not one-man deals ([11:08]–[13:47]).

  Memorable Quote:

  "Bosnia did something extremely important. It showed that not everywhere, but in some places, limited force can achieve limited purposes if you think it through and come up with a plan."
  — Jamie Rubin ([07:30])

2. Applying Bosnia’s Lessons to Current Global Crises

Ukraine and Gaza

• Stalled Peace:

  • Neither Ukraine nor Gaza has a real peace process; current efforts are ad hoc or blocked at the UN ([01:23], [09:22]).

• Peacekeeping Necessity:

  • The US’s current failures in Gaza and Ukraine, according to Rubin, stem from not pairing force with serious, sustained diplomacy and not planning for peacekeeping ([09:24], [11:08]).

• Limits of Military Power:

  • Russian intransigence is compared to Serbia’s, but Russia’s nuclear arsenal makes analogous Western pressure far more dangerous ([21:07]).
  • Supplying arms to Ukraine is crucial; until Putin feels he cannot win, there's no grounds for real negotiation ([21:07]–[22:51]).

  Memorable Quote:

  "To transpose the lessons of Bosnia, you have to remember that Russia is a nuclear power ... The only way to persuade Putin...is to show there is no end."
  — Jamie Rubin ([21:07])

Moral Clarity and Strategic Patience

• Realities of Diplomacy: Both hosts emphasize that peace processes require doing the 'boring' hard work behind the scenes—not showy summits or quick media wins ([11:33]–[12:09]).
• Press Freedom: Good policy often relies on truth-telling reporters, highlighting increasing attacks on journalists both domestically and abroad ([04:10], [19:21]).

3. The Immigrant Crackdown: The Catholic Church, the Pope, and the Politics of Morality

Context and Pushback

• Trump’s Deportation Campaign: Massive increase in arrests/deportations, with questionable data on criminality among migrants ([25:34]–[27:23]).

• Church Response: Both the Vatican and US Catholic bishops have spoken out—defining “pro-life” actions as including humane treatment of migrants ([19:54], [25:34]–[29:20]).

• Grassroots Resistance: Churches and communities are trying to protect immigrant parishioners, creating real-world pushback against policy ([25:34]).

  Memorable Quote:

  "To be pro life is not just about being anti-abortion, it's about being pro life in all its aspects, including treating people as human beings and humanely."
  — Christiane Amanpour ([24:52])

Political and Resource Costs

• Resource Diversion: New York Times findings reveal that shifting Homeland Security resources to deportation has undermined efforts to fight crime and other security priorities ([25:50]–[27:23]).

• Voter Impact: Catholic voters are moving away from Trump because of the moral weight of his immigration policy ([25:34]–[27:23]).

• Moral Dimension in Politics: Churches’ power comes less from voting blocs than their challenge to the moral legitimacy of current policies ([29:20], [30:55]).

  Memorable Quote:

  "I believe morality matters in politics ... Most people believe they are moral people. Where the church's power comes in is the moral voice of government."
  — Jamie Rubin ([29:26])

Global Resonance

• Similar Trends Abroad: Far-right parties and even centrist UK Labour now echo Trump-like anti-immigration positions, often pushed by anxieties about asylum and “invasion” ([31:31]–[32:19]).
• Role of Facts vs. Fear: Immigration is often misrepresented; politicians win on fear, but the backlash is real when ordinary people see neighbors and co-workers targeted ([27:23]–[29:19]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "We can do something about this with limited force for limited purposes, and we can achieve American objectives."
  — Jamie Rubin paraphrasing Madeleine Albright ([08:05])

• “For four years the West had tied themselves up in knots, saying that if we took action then we could be mired in a Vietnam ... nothing bad happened. It just ended the war.”
  — Christiane Amanpour ([05:41])

• “Slobodan Milosevic had the presumptive nerve to say to President Izetbegović, ‘I will give you Sarajevo’, as if they had captured Sarajevo. They had not...They never gave up.”
  — Christiane Amanpour ([18:54])

• “This is a country which was built by immigrants, which was strengthened by immigrants. Our power is that we are an attractive force.”
  — Jamie Rubin ([27:13])

• "Morality comes through in religion, it comes through in government. It comes through in our daily lives. And it's the immorality of this behavior to not treat people like human beings..."
  — Jamie Rubin ([29:26])

• "For the fourth winter in a row [Ukrainians] are being hammered...to try to break their will. It won’t break their will."
  — Christiane Amanpour ([22:51])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Bosnia as Foundational
  [01:23]–[05:00]

• Military intervention and Clinton era lessons
  [05:00]–[09:22]

• Dayton Accords, diplomacy, and Kosovo
  [11:08]–[14:43]

• Kosovo’s outcome & generational memory in Serbia
  [14:43]–[17:17]

• Shortcomings & legacy of Dayton to present day
  [17:17]–[19:54]

• Ukraine conflict parallels and divergences
  [19:54]–[22:51]

• The immigrant crackdown and Church’s pushback
  [24:52]–[29:19]

• Global rise of anti-immigrant politics
  [31:26]–[32:56]

• Morality in immigration and the Catholic Church’s role
  [29:20]–[32:56]

Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is candid, energetic, and interwoven with sardonic humor, reflecting both hosts’ deep experience and commitment. They blend insider insight with personal anecdotes, debate, and a willingness to confront tough questions about the failings and potential of policy, media, and leadership.

Recommendations (Non-political Segment)

• Christiane Amanpour recommends the drama series "Slow Horses": “Gary Oldman is just so phenomenal… it’s about a rogue MI5 domestic security group… puts out to pasture and yet seem to keep solving all the mysteries.” ([33:44])

• Jamie Rubin recommends a biography of philosopher Immanuel Kant:
  “Despite all the troubles, despite all the difficulties, morality and politics will win out… he talked about a world of democracies… operating under a United Nations-like system. He predicted the world we live in.” ([34:24])

Final Thoughts

The episode underscores that historical memory, moral clarity, and international cooperation remain vital in the face of war, nationalism, and the dehumanization of immigrants. The current backlash from the Catholic Church against Trump’s anti-immigrant policies could mark a turning point—reminding listeners that “pro-life” is about a broader, more humane agenda, and that morality still matters in politics.