Church History Matters: Episode 094 "Vengeance Is Mine" – A Detailed Summary

Date Released: December 17, 2024
Hosts: Scott Woodward and Casey Griffiths
Guests: Richard Turley and Barbara Jones Brown
Topic: An in-depth discussion of the book "Vengeance is Mine" by Richard Turley and Barbara Jones Brown, exploring the aftermath of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Introduction to "Vengeance is Mine"

The episode opens with Scott Woodward introducing the guests, Richard Turley and Barbara Jones Brown, authors of "Vengeance is Mine: Mountain Meadows Massacre and Its Aftermath". The book, published in May 2023 by Oxford University Press, delves into the post-event efforts by church and civic leaders in southern Utah to conceal their involvement in the massacre through witness silencing, misinformation, and political maneuvering. It also details the indictment of nine individuals, the apprehension of five, and the eventual execution of John D. Lee.

[00:06] Scott Woodward: "Today on Church History Matters, we sit down with both Richard Turley and Barbara Jones Brown to discuss their important book, to hear their informed insights and perspectives, and to consider what Latter Day Saints and others can learn from this tragedy and how to productively move forward."

Guest Introductions and Bios

Casey Griffiths introduces the guests, highlighting their credentials:

• Richard E. Turley, Jr.: A seasoned historian for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, recipient of the American Historical Association's Herbert Fais Award, and instrumental in gaining National Historic Landmark status for the Mountain Meadows site.
• Barbara Jones Brown: Director of Signature Books Publishing, former executive director of the Mormon History Association, and a direct descendant of one of the massacre's perpetrators.

[02:35] Casey Griffiths: "Barbara... discovered that, like earlier Mountain Meadows Massacre historian Juanita Brooks, she is a direct descendant of one of its perpetrators."

The Genesis of "Vengeance is Mine"

Barbara Jones Brown shares her journey into researching the massacre, starting in the 1980s with the development of monuments commemorating the event. Her deep interest led her to advocate for a comprehensive and honest examination of the massacre's aftermath.

[08:09] Barbara Jones Brown: "So around 2000, something like that, I decided that we ought to have a book written about the massacre by people who were employed by the church and could open up everything with complete honesty and gather all the sources that hadn't been made available in the past and make them available."

Building on Foundational Work

The conversation acknowledges the foundational work of historians like Juanita Brooks and Will Bagley. John D. Lee underscores Brooks' courage in addressing the massacre despite opposition.

[15:02] John D. Lee: "Juanita Brooks was doing the same thing as a stepmother and a mother of her own children. She was writing her book on the Mountain Meadows Massacre... they deny access to primary sources that were in the church history archives."

Unveiling Historical Truths

A significant aspect of "Vengeance is Mine" is the uncovering of previously inaccessible or altered sources. Barbara Jones Brown and John D. Lee discuss how they discovered that "Mormonism Unveiled" was falsely attributed to John D. Lee and was actually penned by his attorney, William Bishop.

[25:16] John D. Lee: "We go into detail about it in the book. So people, again, as Rick was saying earlier, you don't have to take our word for it. Just look at the primary sources that show there's no way that John D. Lee could have written that book and William Bishop's own words in his letters."

Additionally, they reveal discrepancies in trial transcripts, necessitating re-examination through expert transcription.

[28:45] Barbara Jones Brown: "So that requires us to go back to original sources... we did find that later on, there's a portion of the same journal that says John D. Lee returned from a journey southwest. And if you look at the original entry, somebody had taken a sharp implement and they had cut out a line at the bottom of the page."

Debunking Myths and False Narratives

The authors tackle prevalent myths that served to justify the massacre, such as allegations of poisoning water sources by the Fancher Baker party.

[32:35] Barbara Jones Brown: "We believe that what you're looking at here is naturally occurring anthrax... there was no poisoning."

They conducted a meticulous examination, including the exhumation and testing of a suspected victim, to scientifically debunk these myths.

[34:14] Casey Griffiths: "I'm still trying to deal with the fact that you dug up a body... That is the answer."

Understanding the Motives Behind the Massacre

Barbara Jones Brown and John D. Lee delve into the context of the Utah War, explaining how an unsettled environment led to poor decision-making and ultimately the massacre.

[38:07] Barbara Jones Brown: "We combed the literature on the history of violence... In this particular case, they make a decision to attack the train."

They argue that while the massacre was not directly ordered by Brigham Young, the prevailing tensions and violent rhetoric contributed to the tragic outcome.

[41:24] Barbara Jones Brown: "These guerrilla-style raids... the Mountain Meadows massacre was initially intended to be one of those, but it went terribly wrong."

Legal Proceedings and the Singling Out of John D. Lee

The discussion highlights why John D. Lee became the primary figure prosecuted for the massacre, despite many others being involved.

[47:31] Barbara Jones Brown: "Early on, when the federal officials began to investigate this case, they decided that they were going to go after leaders... They went to John D. Lee, who was a small fish, and they said to him, look, you write a confession and we'll drop one of the two counts against you."

John D. Lee reflects on being scapegoated, acknowledging his participation but also identifying the broader conspiracy that remained unaddressed.

[50:50] John D. Lee: "Like what Rick pointed out, he was caught as well. ... Absolutely not. He did participate in the conspiracy and then the actual murder of people at mountain meadows."

Delays in Justice and Political Intrigue

Barbara Jones Brown explains the four-decade delay between the massacre in 1857 and the first indictments in 1874, attributing it to political maneuvers and the onset of the Civil War.

[53:19] Barbara Jones Brown: "Probably the question Barb and I have had most from people is basically, what did Brigham Young know and when did he know it?... Then you get the Civil War."

The prosecution's shifting focus from the massacre to polygamy as a means to disenfranchise Latter-day Saints is also examined.

[57:59] Richard Turley: "... anti polygamy legislation heats up. Instead of Mountain Meadows Massacre prosecution, Utah women who've been voting since 1870, they lose their voting rights."

Reconciliation and Healing Efforts

The episode transitions to discussing the efforts towards reconciliation between descendants of victims and perpetrators. John D. Lee shares personal stories of engaging with descendants and the healing power of truth and apology.

[58:22] John D. Lee: "Years after starting to work on Vengeance Is Mine, I recognized a name in my genealogy that looked familiar to me... the only way to alleviate that pain... is not to try and rehabilitate your ancestor."

Barbara Jones Brown emphasizes the importance of honoring ancestors without glorifying wrongful actions, advocating for open acknowledgment and sorrow.

[70:11] Barbara Jones Brown: "I want to say this to Latter Day Saints who may have ancestors who participated in the Mountain Meadows Massacre or did other things that were not honorable. Don't try to rehabilitate your ancestors for your own personal glory."

Symbolic Acts of Remembrance

The creation of healing quilts by descendants serves as a powerful symbol of reconciliation. These quilts, displayed in Arkansas and St. George, Utah, embody the coming together of families from both sides of the massacre.

[66:57] John D. Lee: "So there are 46 quilt squares on each quilt of these two twin quilts... they are a tribute to healing and reconciliation."

Conclusion: Owning the Past for a Peaceful Future

In wrapping up, both authors advocate for the importance of owning and understanding historical truths as a pathway to healing and reconciliation. They encourage Latter-day Saints and others to express sincere sorrow for past atrocities and to preserve the legacy of the victims through respectful remembrance.

[69:54] Barbara Jones Brown: "As well as my 30 years in the church history department... it's a natural human tendency to want to honor our ancestors."

[72:58] Casey Griffiths: "But it is helpful that you acknowledge the pain. And again, it's healing to say I'm sorry for what happened."

[73:13] Barbara Jones Brown: "This sort of collective recognition of what really happened I think is important."

Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with Richard Turley and Barbara Jones Brown expressing gratitude for the opportunity to share their work and the ongoing interest in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. They emphasize that confronting and acknowledging painful history is essential for true healing and moving forward.

[74:04] Richard Turley: "Absolutely. What an honor to have you both."

Key Takeaways:

• "Vengeance is Mine" provides a comprehensive and honest examination of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and its aftermath, challenging previous misconceptions and uncovering hidden truths.

• The authors emphasize the importance of transparency in church history and the necessity of confronting uncomfortable truths to foster healing and reconciliation.

• John D. Lee serves as a focal point in the prosecution of the massacre, illustrating the complexities of justice and the influence of political motivations in historical narratives.

• Reconciliation efforts, including symbolic acts like healing quilts and open dialogues with descendants, highlight the potential for healing through acknowledgment and sincere apology.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Woodward [00:06]: "Today on Church History Matters, we sit down with both Richard Turley and Barbara Jones Brown to discuss their important book..."

• Barbara Jones Brown [08:09]: "I've been writing about the massacre now for more than 30 years."

• John D. Lee [17:23]: "We have no other sources showing that John D. Lee wrote that book."

• Barbara Jones Brown [34:14]: "We weren't able to confirm from what was residual in the soil because it's been too long..."

• John D. Lee [47:30]: "There was a lot of evidence against you. This is probably the best deal you're going to get."

• Barbara Jones Brown [70:11]: "Don't try to rehabilitate your ancestors for your own personal glory."

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the critical discussions, insights, and conclusions presented in "Church History Matters" Episode 094. It offers listeners a clear understanding of the book "Vengeance is Mine," the meticulous research undertaken by the authors, and the broader implications for church history and reconciliation efforts.