101 Oliver & Revelation - Come Follow Me - E6 - Feb 3-9

Summary

Church History Matters Podcast: Episode 101 - "Oliver & Revelation - Come Follow Me - E6 - Feb 3-9"

Introduction

In Episode 101 of the Church History Matters podcast, hosted by Scripture Central, Scott and Casey delve into a pivotal moment in early Latter-day Saint history: the meeting between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, and the subsequent revelations that shaped the translation of the Book of Mormon. Titled "Oliver & Revelation - Come Follow Me - E6 - Feb 3-9," this episode provides an in-depth exploration of Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) sections 6 through 9, highlighting the challenges and divine guidance experienced during this foundational period.

Meeting Oliver Cowdery (D&C 6)

The episode begins with Casey expressing enthusiasm about meeting Oliver Cowdery, a seminal figure in church history. "He really is. And I think, you know, Oliver's excommunicated in 1838, but he comes back in 1848, a decade later..." (01:01). Scott emphasizes Oliver’s crucial role alongside Joseph Smith, noting, "Without Oliver Cowdery, how do we get the Book of Mormon here?" (01:27). They discuss the circumstances leading to their collaboration, highlighting Oliver's arrival in Harmony, Pennsylvania, coinciding with Joseph's struggles in his translation efforts.

The Revelation and Personal Growth

Casey outlines the context of D&C 6, explaining that Oliver, a 22-year-old schoolteacher, joins the Smith household during a tumultuous period. "Oliver becomes so entirely absorbed in the subject of the record that it seemed impossible for him to think or converse about anything else" (04:00). The revelation in D&C 6 serves as a "seminar on revelation," mentoring Oliver into the prophetic process Joseph had been engaged in since the early 1820s.

Translation Process and the Use of Seer Rods (D&C 8)

As Scott and Casey transition to D&C 8, they explore the divine instructions given to Oliver about translating ancient records. Casey explains that Oliver was granted two gifts: the Spirit of Revelation and the gift of Aaron. "The Spirit of Revelation... is the Spirit of Truth" (08:00), facilitating not only the translation but also providing protection from adversaries. They delve into the transformation of the text from "the gift of working with the sprout" to "the gift of Aaron," noting editorial changes made by Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith to align with more biblical terminology (52:00).

Controversies: Use of Stones in Translation

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the controversial practice of using seer stones in the translation process. "Divining rods could be rods made of green flexible shoots or rods cut from hazel, peach, or cherry trees" (52:39). Casey and Scott contextualize this practice within the cultural milieu of the early 19th century, distinguishing it from modern perceptions of folk magic. They argue that such practices were not viewed negatively at the time and were seen as legitimate means of divine revelation.

Doctrine and Covenants 7: John the Apostle’s Survival

Moving to D&C 7, the podcast examines the revelation concerning John the Apostle. "DNC 7 establishes once and for all, he did not die" (39:24). This revelation challenges the simplified narrative of the Great Apostasy, suggesting that John and other apostles, like the Three Nephites, continued to exist beyond their earthly ministries. The hosts ponder the implications of this revelation, including why these apostles did not reestablish the church, despite their continued existence.

Doctrine and Covenants 8 and 9: Oliver's Attempt to Translate

Sections 8 and 9 chronicle Oliver Cowdery's endeavor to translate the Book of Mormon independently. "Oliver felt encouraged by D&C8, and he did, in fact attempt to translate the Book of Mormon" (58:36). However, his efforts ultimately failed, leading to humbling counsel from the Lord in D&C 9. "If you desire further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart... What greater witness can you have than from God?" (15:23). The revelation emphasizes the importance of faith and the proper utilization of spiritual gifts, guiding Oliver to continue his role as a scribe rather than a translator.

Lessons on Revelation and Personal Revelation

Throughout their discussion, Scott and Casey draw broader lessons on the nature of revelation. They highlight how the revelations within D&C sections 6 through 9 functioned as a "seminar on revelation," teaching Oliver about personal revelation's principles. "Revelation takes work," Casey asserts, emphasizing that divine guidance often requires diligent effort and trust. They also discuss the balance between individual gifts and collective mission, using the dynamic between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery as a case study.

Conclusion and Next Episode Preview

Concluding the episode, Scott and Casey reflect on the profound revelations discussed and their relevance to contemporary believers. They express anticipation for their upcoming interview with Jack Welch, an expert on the timing of the Book of Mormon translation, promising deeper insights into the translation process's rapidity and complexity. "We'll look forward to that video in two days time" (08:31).

Notable Quotes

• Casey (01:01): "If he hadn't taken a little walk about his name, he'd probably be even more well known than he is right now."
• Scott (01:27): "Without Oliver Cowdery, how do we get the Book of Mormon here?"
• Casey (04:00): "Oliver became so entirely absorbed in the subject of the record that it seemed impossible for him to think or converse about anything else."
• Casey (52:00): "We have to contextualize... was it strange in Joseph Smith's time and in the cultural context he existed in?"
• Scott (57:21): "Revelation takes work."

Insights and Conclusions

This episode underscores Oliver Cowdery's indispensable role in the translation of the Book of Mormon and his personal journey of receiving and understanding revelation. The revelations in D&C sections 6 through 9 not only facilitated the translation process but also provided Oliver with spiritual mentorship, reinforcing the principle that revelation is accessible to all believers, albeit requiring faith and perseverance. The discussion on cultural context challenges modern listeners to appreciate historical practices without anachronistically judging them, advocating for a nuanced understanding of foundational church events.

Moreover, the episode highlights the collaborative nature of divine work, illustrating how Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery's partnership exemplifies the balance between individual gifts and collective mission. The upcoming interview with Jack Welch promises to further illuminate the miraculous nature of the Book of Mormon's translation, offering listeners expert analysis on its swift completion.

Final Thoughts

Scott and Casey adeptly navigate complex doctrinal topics, making early church history accessible and engaging. By intertwining doctrinal exegesis with historical context and personal application, they provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how foundational revelations shaped the Latter-day Saint movement. This episode serves as both an informative historical account and a theological guide on the principles of revelation and personal spiritual growth.

Transcript

[Casey]

Foreign.

[Scott]

Welcome to Church History Matters. Come follow me. Edition, where we are systematically diving into every section of the Doctrine and Covenants throughout the year 2025. We have a lot to talk about today, so let's get into it. Hello, Casey.

[Casey]

Here we are again. Another week in the Doctrine and Covenants. And I say this every time, but I'm excited. But this, it's because we're meeting one of the seminal figures of early church history. This block is Doctrine Covenants 6 through 9. And this is where we meet Oliver Cowdery. Like, does he get enough credit for everything that he did?

[Scott]

Seriously. And this is a man who is, like, household name, you know, in church history. Now it's Joseph Smith, Emma Smith. Then where do you go? Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris. I mean, he's one of the. The top names. And we are meeting him today, which is exciting.

[Casey]

He really is. And I think, you know, Oliver's excommunicated in 1838, but he comes back in 1848, a decade later. I think if he hadn't, you know, taken a little walk about his name, would be there with, you know, Brigham Young and John Taylor and other luminaries of the restoration, he'd probably be even more well known than he is right now. But as it is, this is where he bursts onto the scene of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

[Scott]

Yeah. And makes an incredible contribution right away. I mean, without Oliver Cowdery, how do we get the Book of Mormon here? I don't know. Joseph was struggling. He'd burned through a few scribes. He'd lost some manuscript pages, and now once he gets the gift back, he's ready to go. But he needs a scribe. And it just so happens that when he needed a scribe is when the scribe was ready.

[Casey]

Yep.

[Scott]

And they're going to come together in a pretty awesome way, which we get to tell the story today, in fact. Do you just want to get us into this? Where should we start with the Oliver Cowdery story?

[Casey]

I mean, let's start with section six, because these sections, the other thing that's great about them is it's kind of like a seminar on revelation, personal revelation. Because Oliver shows up, and then he has to be kind of mentored into the prophetic process that Joseph Smith has been engaged in since, you know, 1820. 1823. And so these sections are especially valuable in teaching the principles of personal revelation as well. So let's start with section six. This is where Oliver shows up. Let me give you some context. So Oliver's about 22, when he meets Joseph Smith. He is the schoolteacher in Palmyra. So you remember during this time, there's a little bit of geographic separation. Joseph Smith's family is living in Palmyra, which is in upstate New York. Joseph has taken the plates and moved down to Emma Smith's hometown, Harmony, Pennsylvania, which is quite a ways, quite a ways away. And Oliver shows up and boards with the Smith in Palmyra. So he's living with them.

[Scott]

What does that mean, to board with the Smiths? I mean, that's a concept that we don't typically do today. What does that mean?

[Casey]

Basically, he had contracted to be the school teacher in Palmyra that school year, and the Smiths agree to take him into their home and take care of him. And it's over the course of that school year, which just so happens to coincide with Joseph Smith's time of difficulty. He loses the manuscript. In the summer, however, he gets the interpreters back, but sort of goes into this funk, it seems like, where he doesn't do a lot of translation from September until April, when Oliver shows up. Yeah, during this time, Oliver's back in Palmyra, and the Smiths are guarded. At first, they don't really want to talk about it. And when Oliver starts to hear from other people in the town about Joseph Smith Jr. And the plates and all these wild stories, he's the one who goes to them. In fact, he first approaches Joseph Smith's father and meets a little bit of resistance. But as the winks pass, the Smiths come to trust Oliver and they open up. They share a little bit about Joseph and where he was and why people in Palmyra talk about him the way that they do. According to Lucy Mack Smith, Oliver becomes sort of obsessed with this idea. She writes, that Oliver became so entirely absorbed in the subject of the record that it seemed impossible for him to think or converse about anything else. So even before he's met Joseph Smith, Oliver is focused on this, and it seems to kind of capture his imagination. It's during this time, there are several sources that indicate that while he's in Palmyre with the Smiths, he has some kind of spiritual prompting to go and act as an assistant ascriber, whatever, with Joseph Smith. For instance, one source says he told Father and Mother Smith, I've made it the subject of prayer, and I firmly believe that it is the will of the Lord that I should go to visit Joseph down in Pennsylvania and that there is a work for me to do in this thing. He told Father Smith that it had been put into his heart that he would have the privilege of writing for Joseph. And he said this thought had been working in my very bones insomuch that I cannot for a moment get rid of it.

[Scott]

This is the same time where he made this a matter of, like, private, personal prayer, right? Where he privately cries to the Lord one evening during this time. Right? And he's asking God one on one here to let him know the truth of the things he's been hearing from the Smiths. And as he did so, he felt a really profound sense of peace that's.

[Casey]

Referenced in Section 6. But it may have been something more, too, than just this profound sense of peace. In Joseph Smith's 1832 history, this is how he gives Oliver's backstory. Joseph wrote, the Lord showed unto Oliver the plates in a vision and also the truth of the work. Therefore, he was desirous to come and write for me to translate. And so that's the language that Joseph Smith uses in his 1832 history. So it might be more than we anticipate, though Section 6 makes reference to something that doesn't sound quite as big as that. So it's possible, maybe this was a vision that happened later on. Or it's a vision that Oliver records or tells Joseph Smith. But the bottom line is, by the end of the school year, and school years back then were still like autumn to spring, Oliver is ready to go. And he makes the journey from Palmyra down to Harmony, Pennsylvania, where Joseph Smith is living alongside Samuel Smith, Joseph's younger brother. They leave at the end of March. Meanwhile, Joseph Smith has been sporadically translating, but really having significant struggles. Maybe it was a crisis of confidence. It could have been something as simple as he didn't have a lot of paper or anything. He's asking for a scribe. Joseph records that on April 2, he prayed for the Lord to send a scribe as he was previously promised would happen, and was informed that one would soon be forthcoming. And then three days later, on April 5th, that's the date that Oliver gives in an 1834 history. Oliver arrives with Joseph's brother Samuel to his home and tells him why he's come. And Joseph Smith is gratified, basically, like, oh, okay. And it seems like they hit it off. And, you know, for the next few years, Joseph and Oliver, Butch and Sundance, you know, they're the twin heroes of the restoration. The first and second elder of the church, they're called in section 20 because he gets there on the 5th, and on the 7th, according to Oliver, they start translating we're going to go into more depth with this with a guest that we're having on. But they get the whole Book of Mormon as we know it translated in about three months time. So April, May and June, they translate the entire Book of Mormon as we're now currently aware of it.

[Scott]

They begin on April 7th and they're done by end of June. We don't know the exact date, but that fact becomes more and more profound the more and more we get into the complexity of the Book of Mormon itself. And yeah, I'm excited we're going to have a guest on. It should be two days after this video releases. We will have a guest. Should we announce who it is? Kasey?

[Casey]

Yeah, it's going to be Jack Welsh.

[Scott]

Yeah. I can't believe our good friend Jack Welch is going to take the time to be with us.

[Casey]

Founder of Scripture Central and he is.

[Scott]

One of the experts, but I think he's the world's expert on the timing of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. I don't know anyone who's done richer, deeper scholarship than our friend Jack Welch. So we look forward to that. Look for that video in two days time.

[Casey]

Yeah. And so, I mean, that's really exciting because like you said, he has done some incredible scholarship on this. And this is when we say miracles still happen our day. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon is a miracle. When you start to look at the timing of how fast it happened, it happens fast. So these are our sections on translation and probably the best sources in the Doctrine and Covenants to understand the process of translation, which is a huge overlap with the process of revelation. There's a lot here we can learn. For instance, D&C6. We don't know the precise date, but it's probably right around the time that Oliver shows up. Because the language in D&C6 is that of calling someone to the work. And if they show up on the 5th and then by the 7th they're translating, I would guess somewhere in that window is where doctrine and Covenants 6 is received.

[Scott]

A couple days after they've started the work, it sounds like. Right. Not too long into it.

[Casey]

Yeah, not too long into it. Because the language here is that of a calling like Oliver.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

You're on the team now. Here's what I need you to do. Let's get to it. So there's the context. Yeah, let's get into the content.

[Scott]

A couple days have gone by at least, because some of the content of section 6 references Oliver having seen Joseph do some translations. So it looks like he's seen a little bit of this, right? Whatever exactly his question was, we're not sure, but it does seem to be responding to some lingering questions, doubts and fears that Oliver had been quietly harboring but had not yet expressed to Joseph Smith. Let's dive in now and check out what the Lord says to Oliver. So section six opens with a biblically drenched word picture in the first five verses, similar to D and C4, as we talked about in a previous episode, drawing on phrases from the books of Isaiah, Hebrews, John, Revelation, Matthew, and again framing this season in time as on the brink of the coming forth of God's marvelous work, which itself was primed to bring about an abundant harvest of souls through those who are willing to help in the reaping. And so, like he said, Oliver's being called to the work here in the first five verses. And then starting in verse six, the Lord begins to directly address some of Oliver's unspoken questions, some of his doubts, some of his fears. The Lord first directs Oliver to keep his commandments and to seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion. Verse 6, Counsel given, perhaps in response to an unexpressed question about God's will and priorities for Oliver Cowdery's life. And then next, the Lord directs Oliver to seek not for riches, but for the wisdom of God, and is told that he that hath eternal life is rich. Perhaps responding to a lingering fear of Oliver's that maybe getting too involved with Joseph Smith might result in a lack of professional and financial success. We're not sure exactly why the Lord goes here. I'm spitballing here, but perhaps. And then on this theme, the Lord assures Oliver that his righteous desires will be granted, and if he desires, he will be the means of doing much good in this generation. And that for declaring repentance and assisting in this latter day work, he will be justly compensated by the Lord's blessing. And then we go to verses 10 through 24. Casey. So in verses 10 through 24, we sense that Oliver was inclined to doubt his own spiritual experiences and gifts.

[Casey]

Well, and I mean in context too, Oliver is more well educated than Joseph Smith by quite a bit. Right. And so this educated person who's a school teacher coming to this uneducated farmer who has these prophetic gifts may have been a barrier for Oliver. Like, sure, there are some indications that Oliver sort of struggled with thinking, I'm intellectually superior to this guy. I'm more educated than he is.

[Scott]

Yeah. So he not only had doubts perhaps about his own spiritual experiences. But he's also doubting to some degree the authenticity of Joseph Smith's translation ability, we could say, and his methodology. On the one hand, could Oliver Cowdery trust his own feelings and experiences. On the other hand, could he trust the validity of what he was seeing this less educated 23 year old Joseph Smith do day after day as he translated by looking at the Nephite interpreters placed at the bottom of his hat and then dictating to Oliver hour after hour while the plates lay covered nearby. Okay, that's the scene we gotta put in our heads, is that Joseph is looking at the seer stones and Oliver's across the table dictating words that Joseph says while he's just looking at the stones. You can see how maybe Oliver is thinking, is this legit? Is this authentic? Is this actually the voice and the mind and the will of God? This is unprecedented. There's nothing quite like this. There's no translation before or since that I've ever heard of, and I'm sure that Oliver Cowdery had ever heard of that operates like this. In verses 10 through 15, the Lord reassures Oliver that he can trust his own spiritual impressions, that he indeed has a gift, sacred gift himself of revelation. And that by righteously exercising this gift, God's mysteries will be made known to him. People will be convinced of the error of their ways. God says, and if he, Oliver, holds out faithful to the end, he will receive God's greatest gift, which is the gift of salvation. So a lot of reassurance here for Oliver. So then to, to help Oliver recognize the operations of his own kind of budding revelatory gift, the Lord reminds him that as often as he has inquired of God, he's received instructions from God's spirit. Like look at verse 15 where the Lord says, behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me and I did enlighten thy mind. And now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou has been enlightened by the spirit of truth. That's interesting, right? So the Lord is letting him know, like the feelings you've had and the. The enlightenment in your mind. That's how my spirit works. This is the spirit of truth. And then the Lord goes on to say in verse 16 and 17 that the fact that he had just told Oliver details about the thoughts and intents of his heart, which nobody else but he and God alone knew, is a witness that the words Oliver has been writing from Joseph's dictation are true. The Lord says, I tell thee these things as a witness unto thee that the words or the work which thou has been writing are true. In other words, Oliver should consider that both the words of the revelation to Oliver that he's receiving at this time and the words of the Book of Mormon translation are coming from the same young seer looking at the same seer stones. This is how the Lord is authenticating to Oliver Cowdery that this gift you're watching Joseph Smith use is true. Otherwise, how could I have just told you something that only you and me know and Joseph does not? Which is kind of a cool move there, honestly.

[Casey]

This is instructive in Revelation, too, right? The Lord's telling Oliver things that only the two of them know. This is personal revelation, even though this is canonized in the Scriptures, which means it's meant for the whole church. We need to recognize that these early revelations before there is a church are really personal.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

And I think another big lesson that you can pull from these verses. Let me quote verses 22 and 23.

[Scott]

Okay.

[Casey]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart that you might know concerning the truth of these things. Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter. What greater witness can you have than from God? I wonder if part of the lesson here, too, is you have to learn to recognize revelation when it comes. Because the whole point of this revelation is to tell Oliver he's been called to the work. And the Lord is basically saying, I already gave you an answer to this. Do you remember when I spoke peace to your mind? But Oliver was at the point where he just didn't quite know what revelation was like or what to expect. And sometimes the first lesson that we have to learn or we have to teach people is to say, hey, here's some ways that God can speak to you. It's not always going to be a pillar of light or an angelic being. It could be something as simple and as sweet as just feeling peace with yourself.

[Scott]

Yeah. And this did strike a chord with Oliver. We know that shortly after this revelation was received, Oliver actually writes a letter to his friend David Whitmer, who lived up in Fayette, New York. Soon after Oliver's arrival in Harmony, he wrote to me and said that Joseph had inquired of the Lord concerning him that he knew could not be known to any person but himself in any other way than by revelation from the Almighty. So, yeah, Oliver was. Was convinced by this. And I think it's cool that the Lord, rather than just saying, hey, trust Joseph's translating gifts. Okay? Going forward, the Lord is actually saying, you've had revelation yourself. Oliver. Think about how I enlightened your mind when you've inquired of me. You know how you were, like, so eager to come and meet Joseph Smith and you felt called to come inscribe for him, kept telling Father and Mother Smith about that? That was me. Remember that night when you prayed to know the truth of these things and you felt profound peace? That was me. That's how it works. You, too, have a gift of revelation, and you can learn to rely on it. And that's super cool, actually.

[Casey]

Yeah. And again, it speaks to that principle of sometimes people have to be taught what revelation looks like. It's not always what they're expecting. That might be lesson one. If these sections are kind of a seminar on how revelation works, and, like.

[Scott]

The most natural thing in the world is to doubt whether or not that was really revelation, isn't that, like, the most common question we ask is like, is that really revelation or not?

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And Oliver. Oliver is squarely in that camp, right? He's like, I don't know. Can I fully trust that? The Lord says, yeah, you can trust that. Now, one more thing before we talk about Oliver being invited to translate, which is a super cool part of this revelation, we should go back to verses 18 and 19 for just a second, because clearly Oliver has noticed legitimate shortcomings, maybe even faults in Joseph Smith. Joseph's 23, Oliver's 22. Oliver's kind of this, like you said, more educated kid. Probably recognizing Joseph's shortcomings here. But the Lord says this to him. Look at this. He says that he wants him to quote in verse 18, stand by my servant Joseph faithfully in whatsoever circumstances he may be, for the Word's sake. And then he invites him in verse 19 to admonish him in his faults and also receive admonition of him, be patient, be sober, be temperate, have patience. And so that's pretty cool, right, that the Lord is saying, it's okay if you see faults in Joseph, like, point them out in a spirit of faith, hope, and charity, and then receive that admonition from Joseph in that same spirit. Oliver should be careful. In fact, in the next few verses up to verse 21, the Lord talks about the light shining in the darkness. I am the light that shines in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not. I think it's interesting he brings that up and that's a reference from the Book of John. But bringing that reference up in this context suggests that Oliver should be careful in verse 21, that Oliver should be careful not to miss the divinity of what is happening right before his eyes, simply because it's being mediated by a flawed young seer who's using seer stones that shine in darkness at the bottom of Joseph Smith's hat. Sometimes big divine things happen in seemingly mundane or common ways. You know, Joseph Smith will bring up later that Jesus, the God of the universe, was born in, like, a stable. And that if you. If you want to dismiss Jesus because of some of the swaddling cloth, immortal swaddling cloth that enwrapped him, you're going to miss the greatest opportunity of your life. The same thing is true about the restoration, like, don't miss the profundity and the divinity of the restoration because of all the swaddling cloth, because of all the humanity that you're going to see here. So I think verse 21 is pretty profound that way. So then comes the invitation. Not only is Oliver able to receive his own personal revelation in terms of guidance for his life and have a confirmation that Joseph Smith is receiving Revelation, but the Lord surprisingly, actually invites Oliver to go ahead and try the work of translation himself. This is pretty cool. Assuring him in verses 25 through 27 that if he desires it, the Lord will enhance Oliver's current revelatory gifts to enable him to assist more directly in bringing forth these ancient quote records which contain much of my Gospel, which have been kept back because of the wickedness of the people, and quote those parts of my Scriptures which have been hidden because of iniquity. Like, Oliver can, like, actually help in translation, which is wild. And that's going to lead to sections 8 and 9. Bookmark that for a second. But in verse 28, the Lord then speaks to both Oliver and Joseph and gives them what he calls, quote, the keys of this gift which shall bring to light this ministry, which is probably a reference to the spiritual keys necessary to bring forth the Book of Mormon, no doubt surrounding revelation. Right. The Lord then assures them that whether or not these words of Christ that are being brought forth by these two young seers is rejected or accepted by those of that generation. Joseph and Oliver will be blessed for their efforts. And then the Lord drops this. Even the Lord says somberly, if they do unto you what was done unto me, in other words, even if you are martyred like I was, you'll still be blessed to dwell with me. In glory. Which is super interesting. Right. Because we know that Oliver Cowdery does not get martyred with Joseph Smith. It was Joseph and his brother Hyrum. But section 124 says that Hyrum Smith replaced Oliver Cowdery. So that. I mean, that connection's been drawn before that. Potentially, if Oliver Cowdery did not leave, like you mentioned, in 1838, he'll be excommunicated from the church. He'll come back in 1848. Joseph and his brother Hyrum are martyred in 1844.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Scott]

I've often wondered, because of this verse, if maybe it ought not to have been Joseph and Oliver.

[Casey]

You're not on your own there because you know no less a figure than Joseph Fielding Smith makes that argument in Doctrines of Salvation. Yeah. He says if everything would have stayed on course, Oliver would have been the person in. In Carthage jail, not Hiram.

[Scott]

Yeah. Interesting. So let's conclude the. The content here, and then we'll jump over to some controversies. But I love that, as the Lord concludes here, he assures both Oliver and Joseph that he's in their midst, that they should not fear to do good because they will reap what they sow and will ultimately prevail over earth and hell. I love that. If they're built on the rock of Christ, he assures them that though he's aware of their flaws, he does not condemn them. Gosh, I don't know how often we need to hear that, Casey, as humans, but what reassurance that is right. I know of your flaws, and I don't condemn you because of them. In fact, he goes on to say, look unto me in every thought. Doubt not, fear not because of your flaws, look unto me. And then, in a final gesture intended, I think, to help both young revelators understand, like, why they have no need to doubt or fear. The Lord invites them to consider the sacred emblems of his own triumph over earth and hell, where he says, behold the wounds which pierced my side and also the prints of the nails in my hands and feet, like, in spite of the worst that man could do to you, including inflicting death. He's already mentioned to them the Lord has been victorious over all, and so he is thereby, I think, powerfully affirming that victory is certain for Joseph and Oliver if they will be faithful to the resurrected Christ. Don't rely on their own strength, but they can look unto him in every thought, doubt not, fear not, be faithful to him, keep his commandments. And under those conditions, victory is certain. So Powerful.

[Casey]

Well, let's talk controversies in Section 6, then. And some of these we're going to deal with relatively quickly. They kind of carry throughout the sections. But what would you say is controversial in Section 6?

[Scott]

Well, we mentioned in passing that Joseph Smith is translating by looking at rocks. Yeah, Looking at rocks in the bottom of his hat, Casey.

[Casey]

We talked a couple weeks ago about this folk magic overlay that exists in the early Restoration, that that's the world that Joseph Smith grew up in. It seems like Oliver Cowdery, because he's a little bit more educated, is probably more of a man of the Age of Enlightenment. We do find out, however, later on that he does have some of these magical worldview tendencies as well. But that might be some of the territory that Oliver's negotiating here, too, is like, hey, I've been taught and raised and educated. Now you want me to expect revelation, a sacred document to be revealed through the use of these stones.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

Which could have been disconcerting for Oliver a little bit.

[Scott]

I like that you brought up the Age of Enlightenment, because it's interesting how Joseph Smith's time, like, here we are in the 18. What are we at? 1829. This is just on, like, the border of the Age of Enchantment versus the Age of Enlightenment. It's kind of. There's a tension still between these two worlds. This is pre germ theory still, Casey. This is still, like, there's a lot. We don't have electricity yet in 1829. There's a lot of beliefs in terms of, like, the Age of Enchantment, where a lot of the world is kind of magical in some ways. And like you said, you mentioned that a few weeks ago, the magical worldview. And so there's also those that are kind of starting to look upon these disenchanted worldview with some skepticism as they're learning more and more about how the world works. That would cast this in some sort of a, I think, a controversial light. And obviously, us in the age in which we live, we have some serious doubts. We harbor doubts about people being able to translate books by looking at rocks. So what should we. What do we want to say about this?

[Casey]

Well, I mean, part of the work of history is to contextualize. Right. And stuff like seer stones and scrying and stuff like that does seem objectively strange to us in our time, but we've got to do the work a little bit to ask was it strange in Joseph Smith's time and in the cultural context he existed in? And it seems like, it was one of those things that, to some people, was an affirmation that the work was divine.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

The Whitmer family, for instance, who are going to come into the story a little bit later on, said that they doubted Joseph when he wasn't using a seer stone. That was a sign that it was the real deal. So, again, we've got to do the work to kind of go back in time that we'll use this phrase a lot to the past as a different country and understand the cultural environment that they lived in and not just look at it from the culture environment that we live in.

[Scott]

So it's interesting to note this idea that people would, like, channel divine power through special stones. That concept was not foreign to Joseph Smith. He had grown up in a New England subculture where many people, including his own father, believe that divine knowledge could be revealed through objects like rods, stones, similar to what had been done in biblical times. Right.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And that belief seems to have been carried over from England, where between, like, the 1600s and the 1800s, there were, like, people in communities called scryers or seers. And they would often use stones to find, like, hidden or lost objects or to even see the future. We see just little remnants of it today and, like, kind of mythology culture, like Harry Potter and the sorcerer's stone. Oh, oh, a sorcerer's stone. A stone sorcerer used. Oh, yeah. Which, you know, is, like, really interesting. In fact, it's super, super interesting to think that Isaac Newton. Isaac Newton, kind of the father of the age of Enlightenment, in some ways, actually used a seer stone, do you know that, Casey? I was vaguely aware Isaac Newton used seer stone. Anyway. Yeah. So it's a totally different world. And this time period Joseph is in is a bridge time period between the age of enchantment and the age of enlightenment. And so when Moroni showed up and said, there are two stones that are included with the plates, and possession and use of these stones constituted sears in ancient times. And these stones have been prepared for the purpose of translating the book. I don't think Joseph blinked an eye. I think he was like, that makes sense.

[Casey]

Yep.

[Scott]

There are objects hooded with the plates that can be used to translate. Awesome.

[Casey]

Yeah. And it's just an example of the Lord speaking to Joseph Smith in his cultural context and using the world that he lives in. Like, the Lord does speak unto us according to our own language, according to our own understanding. That's in D&C1. This is part of Joseph Smith's cultural language. But for Oliver Cowdery, it does seem like, based on what we know about Section 8, he at least is familiar with this. But, yeah, it may have taken a little time to reintroduce himself into this world of folk magic.

[Scott]

I guess today, like, the way that my Enlightenment era brain tries to make sense of this, Kasey, is to say, listen, we have really cool technology. There's this app where you can literally just open up the camera. Have you tried this? I was in Greece, and I was looking at a menu that was all in Greek, and I got my phone, and I put it up, like, look through the camera, and I put the menu on my camera, and it instantly translated the whole menu into English. And it has all these different languages you can do. You can just, like, put it up against any language, and it translates it instantly, and you can see on your screen what it says. That's pretty cool technology, Casey, for translation. My mind goes like this. It's like, why couldn't God, like, use rocks to do that? And God knows and is aware of technology that I think would still blow our minds. But we can actually do this now, Casey. We could, like, as humans, we can get glass, our iPhones, and we can put it over a language that we don't know, and we can see it in the language that we do know. And if humans can do that now, like, why, you know, I mean, God, who's infinitely more powerful than us and has much more capacity, why could he not help Joseph through rocks do that? And so. So that's what my, like, age of Enlightenment mind does today. I'm like, okay, God was seeding some pretty cool technology into those stones, and it worked, obviously, because we have the book. But you're a child of the Enlightenment. What do you do with that case?

[Casey]

I quote the late Arthur C. Clarke and full admission, I first heard this in the movie Thor, that any technology sufficiently advanced would be indistinguishable from magic. And so, I mean, God understands all science. And my Age of Enlightenment mind tells me that if there's a supreme being, he knows how everything works.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

I'm guessing that a person brought from the Age of Enchantment would look at something like a cell phone and think that it was magical because they couldn't comprehend the principles. So I'm okay saying we're dealing with someone whose understanding is far more advanced than ours is.

[Scott]

Yeah, that satisfies my Age of Enlightenment mind.

[Casey]

Let's get into consequences, which I think the consequence here is. Oliver's on board. This revelation is not only directly and lovingly addressing Oliver's questions and his doubts and his fears.

[Scott]

But.

[Casey]

But it's inviting him to become part of the Lord's work by serving as a scribe. And you're going to work with flawed people, Oliver. The Lord also addresses a number of Oliver's flaws, but through these flawed people, the Lord can do great things. The revelation kind of solidifies Oliver's witness to Joseph's prophetic calling, sets him on a path to contribute in a huge way for the next several years in the church, and assures him that this is important, and I'm going to help you accomplish this as well. So this is Oliver being drafted into the great cause.

[Scott]

Okay, well, let's transition now over to DNC 7. So in the midst of translation here, we get an interesting conversation between Joseph and Oliver. Actually a little bit of a controversy between them themselves. You want to tell us about that?

[Casey]

I want to point out, when you read DNC 6, 8, and 9, section 7 is going to feel like a weird tangent. The text itself, when you just start reading it, you're going to basically say, what? Like this? This is coming out of left field.

[Scott]

Where is this coming from?

[Casey]

Yeah, but I would say, don't skip section seven. It's an important part of understanding the translation process, because not only are Joseph and Oliver translating, they're learning. Section 7 seems to indicate they were, like, debating and discussing Scripture. You know, I'd like to think that Joseph and Oliver would host a pretty interesting podcast if they'd had the technology. So they start translating. And the introduction that's given here is Joseph writes, during the month of April, I continue to translate and Oliver to write with little cessation, during which time we received several revelations. A difference of opinion arose between us about the account of John the apostle mentioned in the New Testament, whether he died or whether he continued. And this is one of those passages in the New Testament that you can puzzle over till your puzzler is sore where John is talking to Jesus. In fact, it's John and Peter speaking to Jesus right at the end of the Gospel of John. And it's sort of ambiguous as to what he says, where in the account, Jesus speaks to Peter about John and says, if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? And Jesus doesn't really confirm or deny that John will, in fact, live till the second coming of the Savior. So there's differences of opinion.

[Scott]

Yeah. What was it in the Book of Mormon that sparked this question?

[Casey]

There are several things that could have sparked this. So on the one hand, there's references in the Book of Mormon to people being taken up. People like being taken up and not dying. Like, the earliest One is Alma 45, verse 19, where it mentions just offhand that this is what happened to Moses, which is kind of a huge revelation. And it mentions it in the context of saying that Alma the Younger, the Book of Mormon prophet, was taken up by the Spirit or buried by the hand of the Lord. That's in Alma 45, verse 19.

[Scott]

So we don't know exactly where they were translating, but that might have sparked.

[Casey]

Like, the thought it's mentioned in third Nephi 28 also, too. It just seems like they wouldn't have been that far along at this point. But we could be wrong, because section.

[Scott]

13 is going to come from translating third Nephi, like 11. Right. They're going to start asking about the authority and power to baptize. Yeah. It doesn't seem like they've covered third Nephi 28 yet with the three Nephites.

[Casey]

And so it seems like they wouldn't be that far along. But we could be wrong.

[Scott]

Sure.

[Casey]

We don't know the exact date here, but we do know that their argument, they basically mutually agree to settle. Like, the same way when you and I debate, Scott, you know, we'll say, well, let's go to the Internet. Let's harness the awesome power of the online community. They go to the Urim and Thummim. So they basically say, yeah, let's ask the Lord. And through the medium of the Urim and Thummim, they get doctrine and Covenants 7, which again, has this kind of interesting language surrounding it. The first printing of this revelation, it's in the Book of Commandments, just mentions that it was translated from parchment written and hit up by John the Beloved himself. Meaning probably that they looked into the instruments that they're using and they see the parchment there, and that's where they get the answer from. They don't ever mention they have a physical parchment. So they must have seen it in the Urim and Thummim.

[Scott]

So they look into the Urim and Thummim, probably Joseph, probably not both of them, but Joseph looks into the Urim and Thummim with this question in mind about John the Beloved, and he sees a parchment written by John the Beloved, but that parchment itself would not be written in English. That would be probably Greek.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Scott]

So then he sees a translation of a parchment that John wrote. Is that what we understand from this?

[Casey]

Again, that's all we have to go off of. But it is interesting that it's putting forth the idea here that the instruments they're using can not only translate physical medium that they have like the plates, but that it can present to them texts and objects that they don't physically have. Which could be interesting when we're talking about Joseph Smith's conception of what translation means. That it was not translation in the way we think of it, that it's Revelation.

[Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Casey]

To add another wrinkle to this too, it shows up first in the Book of Commandments, which is published in 1833. Then when it's published again in 1835 in the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, there's added material that's put into this as well.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

Most likely this is an inspired clarification or an interpolation that's added by the prophet, drawn in part from related scripture. But it does kind of show another thing about the way Joseph Smith sees scripture, which is he doesn't see it as carved into granite. He sees it as malleable and changeable based on his prophetic calling, which is kind of a valuable insight also to understand his mindset.

[Scott]

Well, let's look at the text then. Let's dive in here. The text Of D&C7 begins actually in the first person language of John himself, recounting his dialogue with the Lord. And then verses two and three decisively cut through this centuries old ambiguity. Casey, here it comes. We learn with great clarity that John was indeed given, quote, power over death and he was promised by the Lord that he would quote Terry until I come in my glory. Booyah.

[Casey]

So DNC 7 establishes once and for all, he did not die.

[Scott]

You didn't Bet.

[Casey]

But that raises another question, which is a lot of times our simplified narrative of the apostasy is just all the apostles died and therefore the priesthood was taken from the earth. But if John didn't die, then the priesthood was never fully taken from the earth and we would have already had to deal with this because the Book of Mormon establishes that three of the Nephite disciples did not die either. So why didn't these guys get together and call new apostles? And why was there a whole apostasy? Basically, and like I said, it's confirmed in the Book of Mormon, in 4 Nephi and in Mormon 8. Mormon and Moroni both confirmed that the three Nephites were still around in their day, hundreds of years later. So why don't these guys just reorganize the church? Why wait until 1820? I guess would be the controversy, right?

[Scott]

It's a great question. And like you said, it is attacking that kind of simplified assumption about the apostasy.

[Casey]

And we should note too that other than Doctrine and Covenants 86, I don't know if the Savior himself ever describes the apostasy as just the apostles died.

[Scott]

No.

[Casey]

In section 86 he says the apostles fell asleep and then describes a narrative. But in section one, when he describes the apostasy doesn't mention prophets and apostles. He mentions idolatry and changing the ordinances and everything like that. He doesn't say the apostles dying was a problem because it feels like he can call new apostles.

[Scott]

Right? Yeah, yeah, 100%. And so there must be more going on. But here's a thought from elder Joseph Fielding Smith where he says that even in the days of apostasy, the great apostasy, the Lord never surrendered this earth and permitted Satan to have complete control. Even when the great apostasy occurred following the death of the Savior's apostles, our Father in heaven held control and had duly authorized servants on the earth to direct his work and to check to some extent at least the ravages and corruption of the evil powers. These servants were not permitted to organize the church nor to officiate in the ordinances of the Gospel, but they did check the advances of evil as far as the Lord deemed it necessary. That's one perspective on it, right? That they were kind of here to keep Satan in check and keep evil at a manageable level in some way.

[Casey]

Yeah. That phrase check the advances of evil kind of piques my curiosity. I'd love to know the behind the scenes story of what was going on there. This is from a 1997 talk by Henry B. Eyring. He said there seems to be no end to the Savior's desire to lead us to safety. And there is constancy in the ways he shows us the path he calls by more than one means so that we'll reach those willing to accept it. And those means always include sending the message by the mouths of his prophets whenever the people have, and I think here's the key word qualified to have the prophets of God among them. Those authorized servants are always charged with warning the people and telling them the way to safety. And so seems like President Eyring is saying is that prophets and them acting in open prophetic ways isn't necessarily a right, it's a privilege that people qualify for. And that if people are just going to reject the prophets and murder them, that God can withdraw the prophets and that the apostasy was more a function of that. That John and the three disciples were told to withdraw publicly and wait until conditions were a little bit better.

[Scott]

One day, the story of John and the three Nephites over the last 2,000 years is going to be told. And I am just so curious and so interested to see what kind of fascinating tales they have to tell and what they've been up to for the last 2000. Especially, like you said, when they withdrew, what does that mean? They're withdrawing from society? What are they doing?

[Casey]

Yeah. And how are they checking the advances of Satan, too? Like I want to know that story.

[Scott]

Yeah. So there's more to come with John. There are some occasions in our history where appearances of John have been recorded, Cayce. The most, I think, authoritative one that we can take to the bank is when he appeared with Peter and James to confer the apostleship and the keys of the kingdom on Joseph and Oliver Cowdery. Right. It was Peter, James, John.

[Casey]

Yeah. There's a couple others too, though, and I want to credit Frank Judd and Terry Zink. They did a. A great article you can find for free that talks about the appearances of John during the Restoration period. I'm just going to mention a couple here. In June 1832, John Whitmer, who was the historian of the church, recorded that the Spirit of the Lord fell upon Joseph Smith in an unusual manner and prophesied that John the Revelator was then among the ten tribes of Israel. Joseph Smith prophesies that John the Revelator is among the 12 tribes of Israel. Oliver B. Huntington, another early Latter Day Saint, said that while Zion's camp was going on, that they woke up one morning, they saw Joseph Smith standing a ways off talking to a man. He came back and told them that the man was John the Beloved and that he was preparing the 10 tribes for their return.

[Scott]

Oh, my word.

[Casey]

And then one more from Heber C. Kimball. Heber C. Kimball reported that John appeared in the Kirtland Temple in 1836, writing that the beloved disciple John was seen in our midst by the prophet Joseph, Oliver Cowdery and others. So he's been in the temple and it makes sense that he would be in and out of all these things. But it seems like he still wasn't given a prominent public leadership role within the church, probably because that would have major consequences for the plan of salvation. If everybody knew there was this guy that didn't die, he was 2,000 years old, that would be kind of a distraction, I guess. From the work of the restoration.

[Scott]

Fascinating.

[Casey]

Foreign.

[Scott]

Let's talk about the consequences Aftermath of DNC 7. I think we can say that the contributions of Section 7 go beyond just answering that centuries old question about John's living status, but also demonstrating how later revelation can build upon and clarify previous revelation. But this section also does three other things, like first, as a translation of a missing Johannine parchment, this section also confirms what the Lord had recently told Oliver and Joseph Just in DNC 6. Yeah, that there were ancient records and scriptures which were kept back and hidden because of iniquity. This is a cool example of that. Section 7 is second. It also confirms that Peter, James and John were actually given vital keys which would play an important role prior to Jesus's second coming. A fact which would soon be confirmed to Joseph and Oliver when Peter, James and John appear to them and confer these very keys upon their heads. In fact, I think we're just like maybe a month or two out actually from that happening. And so it's kind of cool that they had Section 7 happen first and then they met John not but a month or two later, which is super cool. Okay, so then the third thing that this section does is it basically underscores the fact, and this is a cool point, that the Lord truly is a granter of righteous desires. As long as those desires are aligned with his will, the Lord seems to be willing to grant according to our desires. Although Peter and John receive very different blessings from the Lord as to their lifespans, they both receive from the Lord according to their desires. And both, the Lord says, will have joy therein.

[Casey]

This one isn't as out as left field as it feels. It's still in this sequence of this seminar, I'm going to call it, of section 6 to section 9 on personal revelation, that you ask for things the Lord is more than willing to grant them. And it also brings up this idea that's going to show up in Section 8 again, that the translation of the Book of Mormon isn't the end of the job, that there's going to be multiple translation projects that will happen as part of the restoration. This is really just the beginning, which.

[Scott]

Is a great transition to Section 8. And really Section 8 and 9 need to kind of go together. They're really two parts of the same story, aren't they?

[Casey]

We were talking about this. They have pretty much the same sort of context.

[Scott]

Is it fair to say that the Context for Section 9 is Section 8? Can we say that?

[Casey]

Yeah. And you should never, you know, study these sections on Their own, they belong together. They're really part of the same story. So, yeah, here's the context. Okay, we mentioned several times they start translating on the 7th of April, 1829. And as they're translating sometime into the translation efforts, we're not sure exactly when, they get section six, which gives Oliver, it says, among other things, that he would be granted the gift to translate even as my servant Joseph. And it appears that Oliver became really anxious and wanted to do what Joseph Smith was doing. He wanted to have the power to translate. This is what Joseph Smith's history says. Oliver Cowdery became exceedingly anxious to have the power to translate bestowed upon him as promised. And so Oliver's not going off the reservation here. His earlier revelation had said that he would get this power. And Joseph Smith also doesn't seem to be offended by Oliver asking to do this either, because his response isn't, no, it's my job to translate. His response is, why don't we ask the Lord and see what he has to say? And that's where Section 8 is received. Just in answer to that question, can Oliver translate? And then section nine comes after. It seems he's not able to translate.

[Scott]

So let me drop into the content here of section 8, then what does it say? Well, this gets really fun. In section 8 here, Oliver is told by the Lord that he has two related gifts, both of which are relevant to his desires to translate. The first gift the Lord calls the Spirit of Revelation, and the second he calls the gift of Aaron. Now, the way this first gift of the Spirit of Revelation works, the Lord explains, is that if Oliver will quote, ask in faith with an honest heart, believing that he shall receive, he will be given a knowledge concerning the engravings of ancient scriptural records which were referenced previously back in DNC 6, verse 26 and 27. And this knowledge will be given by the Lord in Oliver's mind, in his heart, by the Holy Ghost. These are very familiar passages to Latter Day Saints. We like to quote verse 2 and 3 that Oliver would know in his mind and in his heart by the Holy Ghost which will come and dwell in his heart. This, the Lord explains, is the Spirit of Revelation. And then he further explains that this gift will not only be useful in helping Oliver gain knowledge of ancient records, but also in delivering him out of the hands of his enemies who would otherwise slay him. Which makes sense of the next phrase, where he says it's the same spirit that led the prophet Moses to deliver the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground. Right. Precisely. A moment of Revelation that came when enemies were trying to destroy Moses and his people. In other words, the spirit of Revelation seems to have broad application here. This can help you in times of exigency, when your life is in danger, or it can also help you in translating ancient records. Oliver, this is a gift with broad application. And we drop down in verses 6 through 11 where the Lord instructs Oliver regarding this second related gift. Well, verses six and seven in our current text referred to as the gift of Aaron. Yet what's interesting here is that the phrase the Lord used in verse 6 in the earliest manuscript of this Revelation was, catch this. The gift of working with the sprout. Is he a gardener? Like, what does this mean? Okay, let's keep going. And in verse seven, he calls it this thing of nature. Then later on, as Sidney Rigdon was preparing this manuscript for the 1833 printing, he actually crosses out the word sprout in verse six and think of nature in verse seven, and he writes rod above both of them. So the gift of working with the rod. Then in the 1835 printing of this revelation, Joseph changed both phrases to gift of Aaron as they now appear in section 8, which is really interesting. And maybe we could pause right there and introduce our very first controversy of Section 8.

[Casey]

Well done. Well done. And you have led us to a controversy, which is what? Let's address this gift of working with the sprout. So what's going on here? Why change the gift of working with the sprout and this thing of nature to the gift of working with the rod and this rod to the now current phrase, the gift of Aaron? We've talked about this a little bit earlier, but we want to hearken back to the idea that in the 1820s, when this revelation was received, it's given in 1829, some in society were believed to have the spiritual gift of working with divining rods.

[Scott]

So what's a divining rod?

[Casey]

Okay, so a divining rod has to do with this folk magic overlay we've talked about a little bit when we talked about Joseph deals with seer stones and money digging and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, divining rods could be rods made of green flexible shoots or rods cut from hazel, peach, or cherry trees. And use of these rods dated back centuries and were typically used by those who had this gift to find water and minerals in the ground. And it's an interesting thing when I teach this and bring it up in class. Usually I have a couple students that Say. Yeah, you know, I know this guy who worked with the divining rod or my dad worked with a divining rod.

[Scott]

Water witching. Right? Is that what people call it today? Water witching?

[Casey]

Yeah, but, I mean, the word witching kind of carries the wrong connotation.

[Scott]

The vining rod also isn't too far off.

[Casey]

Yeah, I mean, they didn't think of it as a cult, from what we can see. Like, and sometimes today we might associate it with that, especially words like witching. They saw it as aligned with Christianity and that it wasn't contrary to the scriptures. In fact, it was evidence of God's divine head. That's why I used the word divining rod before. What did you say? Witching wand or something like that.

[Scott]

Water. Water witching is what I've heard it called.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

It's still a thing.

[Scott]

What's crazy is that, like, obviously Oliver had used such divining rods in the past. So it's interesting what the Lord is calling here. Like, the gift of working with the sprout could be connected with this gift of revelation. The Lord doesn't seem to be, like, saying, like, that's weird. Like, don't do. Don't do that, Oliver. Like, he seems to be saying, like, that's legit. You have a gift. Gift of working with the sprout. This thing of nature that you hold in your hands. It, too, is an object of revelation and maybe could be used in the process of translating the Book of Mormon.

[Casey]

Yeah. And it might even be what the Lord was making reference to in section 6. In section 6, verse 11, the Lord says, if thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous. Therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift that thou mayest find out mysteries in verse 12. Make not thy gift known unto any, save it be those who are of thy faith. Trifle not with sacred things. He could be referring to this here, or it could be a different gift, the gift of personal revelation. But this again, the Lord says in section one, I speak unto men unto their own understanding and in their own language. He could be talking in the cultural language that Joseph and Oliver are familiar with. But in the 1830s, when the book of Commandments and the Doctrine and Covenants were published, there's kind of this increasing hostility towards supernatural acts like this.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

And they're moving into a broader community outside of this New England setting that they grew up in. And so things like seer stones and rods were increasingly suspect as part of the spread of the enlightenment. Or scientific empiricism or things like that. This might explain why Joseph, recognizing that this might have made sense in their cultural context, but might not make sense for others, decided to change the reading here. So you got Sidney Rigdon, who comes from a couple hundred miles away, who makes a change, and then you've got Joseph Smith, who just changes it to the more biblical idea of a gift of Aaron, which really is what Oliver does. Like, he's compared to being Aaron to Joseph's Moses several other places in the Doctrine and Covenants. And I want to point out here, he doesn't, like, criticize or devalue Oliver's gift. He legitimizes it by reminding him that he already told him many things through it and assuring him that it operates by God's power and it's a gift from him that God has given to him. And he even tells him not to trifle with the gift, but to use it righteously. It's a way of asking God for knowledge, specifically to learn the mysteries of God and to translate ancient records. And all this, the Lord tells Oliver, will be done according to his faith, Holy Ghost.

[Scott]

So that's so interesting that it seems like the Lord is hinting here that Oliver could use that gift to translate the Book of Mormon. Like, it's already interesting enough, and especially to us Age of Enlightenment people to think about Joseph looking at rocks in the bottom of his hat. But you and I talked about how the way we make sense of that today is we have cell phones and things can be sent through glass, and that's fine. Like, messages can be sent. God's probably just using advanced technology, but using a rod, using, like, a water witching rod. Now, we don't know for sure that he tried to do it with the water witching rod, but the Lord seems to be suggesting here that, yeah, if. If you can channel revelation through that object of power, then try to use that to translate.

[Casey]

I also kind of think that the Lord is trying to basically say to him, like, revelation can come a lot of different ways. Heart and mind and rod and so on and so forth, as a way of basically saying to Oliver, which is something I think we all need to learn. Keep your mind open as to how the answers can come. Sometimes we get locked into hearing a still, small voice or seeing a vision or getting a burning in the bosom, which is going to be mentioned in one of these sections. But those are just some of the ways the revelation can come. And it might be different from person to person.

[Scott]

Yeah, that's a good point. We should stay open to all the ways God can communicate and also not.

[Casey]

Try to judge people that live outside of our cultural context. Like I said, the question to ask here isn't, is this weird to us? Would it have been weird to Joseph and Oliver? And it seems like no. Like, these are very casual references, but as they become more cosmopolitan, I guess you'd say they started to realize, oh, this could be confusing for people that don't come from the same background as us. So I think it was a smart change to make.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

But I'm okay with the original text the way it was too. I mean, I think it's fine. Yeah. So don't keep us in suspense. What happens? Like, is Oliver able to translate?

[Scott]

Well, from the historical record, it's clear that Oliver felt encouraged by D&C8, and he did, in fact attempt to translate the Book of Mormon. When his efforts to do so ultimately failed, however, Oliver reverted back to his original position as scribe and Joseph as translator. Shortly thereafter, after he goes back to scribing according to Joseph, a disappointed quote, Oliver was desirous to know the reason why he could not translate. So Joseph inquires of the lord and Section 9 comes right on the heels of this. And the Lord begins that revelation pretty gently, admonishing Oliver to have patience. He was not to attempt to translate any more from the Book of Mormon, but to continue described for the time being with the Lord's assurance that he would have later opportunities to hone his gift, since there were other records that he would be empowered to assist to translate. And by other records, the Lord might be referencing such future translation projects as the Bible revision, which would get underway in just over a year from this time. Also, the. The translation of the Book of Abraham was just a few years out as to the question that Oliver had in his mind as to why he failed to translate when the Lord had clearly authorized him to do so. In both section six and section eight, the Lord explained it is because you did not continue as you commenced when you began to translate. That's interesting. The Lord said he actually began to translate. Now, what exactly he means there, we don't know. But it could suggest that Oliver did in fact successfully dictate words that have become part of our Book of Mormon English text. Yeah.

[Casey]

So Oliver's successful at first, right?

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

So the Lord, and I think this is in Joseph, history took away the privilege from him. And in the Revelation, the Lord does give some kind of pointers, like, we've got to move on. Oliver we don't have time. But here's a couple things that I need you to know. And this is part of his seminar on Revelation, where the Lord's teaching him things you've not understood. The Lord tells him, you have supposed that I would give it unto you when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But you must study it out in your mind, and then you must ask me if it be right. And if it is right, I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you. Therefore you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right, you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong. Now, if you had known this, you could have translated.

[Scott]

So Oliver had, apparently. It sounds like underestimated, both like the intellectual and spiritual effort required to receive the level of revelation needed to translate the Book of Mormon. In fact, the Lord uses the word feared. He just used. You just read the word feared here, meaning perhaps that he feared failure. The Lord had been clear, hadn't he, at the end of Section 8, that Oliver's translation efforts would only succeed according to his faith. The Lord said, but Oliver failed because the Lord is suggesting here he allowed his fears to stifle his faith.

[Casey]

And the Lord kind of tenderly says, do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I've dealt with you after this manner.

[Scott]

So what was the wisdom in allowing Oliver to try to translate and fail when the Lord knew? Right. And so why set up this little learning environment you keep calling this, like.

[Casey]

A seminar in Revelation?

[Scott]

Seminar on Revelation. So why let Oliver try and fail? Why promise him that he can translate, and then when he tries, he's not able to eke out more than maybe 28 words like, what does he mean that it's wisdom in me, that I have dealt with you after this manner?

[Casey]

Well, I mean, this is a whole discussion on why does the Lord let us fail at anything? Or why do we sometimes get revelation, and then things don't turn out exactly the way we want them to be? I mean, this is a. This is a whole subtopic on the question of faith. But, I mean, failure doesn't always mean rejection, necessarily. And failure can be a part of the learning process. And if this is Oliver Cowdery's seminar on Revelation and how it works, a lot of times you give your student a shot and let them fail and then turn it into an instructive moment, which I think is what the Lord's trying to do here?

[Scott]

Yeah, I think so. And let's go over to verse 12 where the Lord says, for do you not behold that I have given unto my servant Joseph sufficient strength whereby it is made up? And neither of you have I condemned. Now that line, do you not behold that I have given Joseph sufficient strength whereby your failure is made up? He's talking about Oliver's failure. Don't you see that Joseph's strength is sufficient to compensate for your weakness? I just got to pause and think about that. It seems like the Lord is saying that. Now, Oliver, you have tried and you have failed to translate, right? Now, can you now appreciate the extent to which your young unlearned colleague Joseph Smith has developed his revelatory gifts? Can you now understand with fresh eyes the miracle, the marvelous work and wonder that you're now witnessing as you're sitting across from 23 year old Joseph and watching him translate the Book of Mormon page after page, day after day, week after week, using stones that he had received with the record? Like, I think this is the wisdom, this is my thought. And I think that's what the Lord's saying with verse 12 is, do you not behold Joseph? Now remember that Section 6 had started out with some doubts and fears in Oliver Cowdery's heart, right? Probably doubts about his own insecurities, but also doubts about Joseph.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And what the Lord has just walked him through through this seminar is a Joseph Smith the Prophet Appreciation Seminar as well. Like this is I think to help Oliver recognize the gifts of this young seer that he is remarkably getting to scribe. For that actually comes up later when Oliver, he actually shares this a couple years later about his experience being able to scribe the Book of Mormon. He said, quote, these were days never to be forgotten. To sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom. Day after day I continued uninterrupted to write from his mouth as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or as the Nephites would have said, interpreters, the history or record called Book of Mormon. So it seems that, you know, Section 8 is encouraging this eager but perhaps naive Oliver Cowdery to translate as he had seen Joseph do. And then following his failure, Section 9 offers humbling counsel for this developing disciple of Christ. So here Oliver is gaining valuable insight into developing his own growing spiritual gifts as well as a pretty deep respect and awe for the miracle that the Lord is accomplishing through the spiritual gifts of Joseph Smith.

[Casey]

Yeah, wouldn't you say that that's another lesson about revelation, is that sometimes the lesson is you're not going to get the revelation. You have to get a confirmation of what someone else has received. We all want to be kind of the hero of the story, but Oliver was being taught here, hey, sometimes you're the revelator and translator, and sometimes you're the scribe. And it's like the body of Christ analogy Paul uses. Like the eye can't say to the hand, I have no need of you. We all have our roles to play. And a lot of times the revelation that we need to get is that the revelation someone else received is correct and true, and then we're ready to go again. Admire Oliver, but there is kind of a line you can trace in their relationship where Oliver was better educated. I think Oliver kind of thought of himself as, I think, more intellectual than Joseph and might have needed this early lesson to say, hey, it's not always about the amount of training you have. It's about the calling you receive and the work you put into it. And that's another major thing I would add here in our seminar in Revelation is Revelation takes work.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

I have so many students that just assume if I pray, I'll get the answer. And the Lord gave you a mind and a heart for a reason. He expects you to reason through things, to grow in understanding. And a lot of times, like the revelation says, ask me if it's right, you've already made the decision, and then I'll confirm to you that it's right, the revelation. Because, I mean, the evidence here is that Joseph had had the plates for over a year at this point. Oliver has been there a couple weeks, and he's expecting to just be at the same level. And I mean, it takes time. It's like any other skill. You have to work at it in order for it to become really viable.

[Scott]

Yeah. Joseph Smith talks about growing into the principle of revelation, is how he said it. Like it's something you got to learn. It's like a. Like a skill. These revelations that we've just looked at today, Casey, six through nine, I think are a pretty cool, intimate look into how the Lord has tutored to disciples of Jesus budding in their spiritual gifts. Joseph is further along in his development of his ability to receive revelation. But Oliver Cowdery is on his way. And the Lord says to both of them, you have. Have a gift. It takes work. And I don't know about you, but I am still. I feel like at the very beginning of trying to figure out Revelation. I'm humbled that Section 8 lays out a pattern for revelation. Context is about how to translate ancient records, which has never been a task I've been given. But I feel like the principles in section 8 and 9 have been useful in other contexts as I've sought revelation.

[Casey]

And again, we're stepping around the most important revelation from all these sections, which is anybody can get revelation. It's not a privileged role. Some people have roles that allow them to receive more specific or more significant revelations. But Oliver Cowdery's introduction into this whole world is the Lord basically saying to him again and again and again, yeah, you can do this. Yeah, you can do this. And it reminds me of that statement Joseph Smith gives later on where he says, God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but that he will make known to the 12 and the weakest of saints as soon as they qualify themselves for these things. So that's going to be a thread throughout the Doctrine and Covenants too, that Joseph Smith is receiving revelation and he's acting in his role as a prophet. But anybody can get revelation. That's one of the most beautiful things that we teach, is that God speaks to everyone.

[Scott]

I love that as an ideal, and I struggle with it in the real. I found that it's kind of hard to actually get revelation, you know, peace. Maybe section 6 level revelation seems a lot easier than having, like, words from heaven dictated to your mind. Section eight and section nine level of revelation. And there is a difference here. Peace. Did I not speak peace to your mind? Section 6. And here are actual words from an ancient record.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Scott]

That you can dictate to a scribe. I think what Joseph Smith is doing at age 23 is not just next level, but like, next next level revelation. It's not like, yeah, anybody can translate ancient records. Just give it a shot. Like, just, you know, it's like, no, we can all stand back and admire what the prophet Joseph is doing. And the way we can admire that is by reading the Book of Mormon itself. Like, if you read the text, you get into the details of this thing, it is mind blowing that this came to Joseph Smith at 23, looking at rocks in his hat. Casey. And how fast it came. And we're gonna. We're gonna talk with an expert in our companion episode to this one with our friend Jack Welch, to walk through the rapidity of this translation. Once Joseph starts going, like, full speed ahead, they start April 7th and they're done, like, end of June. And so we're going to talk to Jack Welch about pinning down the timing of this, But I would like to say in the same breath as we're saying, look, anyone can receive revelation and the principles are outlined in these sections. I would like to also say that we should all, like Oliver, stand back and admire what God is doing through Joseph Smith that he doesn't typically do through people like you and me. Like, yeah, this is next, next level revelation that Joseph's getting and the Book of Mormon is the evidence that it was real. Read the text. We have the text and it's pretty remarkable.

[Casey]

Yeah, it's one of those paradoxes that, you know, revelation is something anybody can do, but here is somebody who really received a revelation. It was a marvelous work and a wonder.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Casey]

And that's Joseph Smith. And coming forth, the Book of Mormon as we're going to illustrate when we talk with Jack Welch in our next episode. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to that. That's going to be way fun. Talk about translation with one of the world's experts on it, who we are very grateful to have with us.

[Scott]

Yes. So we'll look forward to that. That'll drop in two days time from now. Well, thank you, Casey. That was a good time, man. We'll.

[Casey]

Thanks, Scott.

[Scott]

We'll see you over with Jack Welch.

[Casey]

All right, see you then.

[Scott]

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Church History Matters. Our new episodes drop every Tuesday, so please join us next week as we continue to dig into the context, content, controversies and consequences of the revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants. If you're enjoying or gaining value from Church History Matters, we would love it if you could pay it forward by telling your friends about it or by taking a moment to subscribe, rate, review and comment on the podcast that makes us easier to find. Today's episode was produced by Scott Woodward and edited by Daniel Sorensen with show notes and transcript by Gabe Davis. Church History Matters is a podcast of Scripture Central, a nonprofit which exists to help build enduring faith in Jesus Christ by making Latter Day Saints scripture and church history accessible, comprehensible and defensible to people everywhere. For more resources to enhance your gospel study, go to scripturecentral.org where everything is available for free because of the generous donations of people like you. Let me say that again, all of our content is free because people like you donate to make it possible. So if you're in a position where you're both willing and able to make a one time or ongoing donation, be assured that your contribution will help us here at Scripture Central to produce and disseminate more quality content to comment combat false and faith eroding material out there in the digital marketplace of ideas. I try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast. Please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of Scripture Central or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us.