Church History Matters Podcast

Episode 105: The Intractable Witnesses of the Book of Mormon - Come Follow Me - E8 - Bonus Episode

Host/Author: Scripture Central
Description: The Church History Matters Podcast features in-depth conversations between Scott and Casey, delving into both the challenges and beauty of Latter-day Saint Church History.
Release Date: February 13, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 105 of Church History Matters, hosts Scott and Casey engage in a profound discussion with Dr. Daniel C. Peterson, a renowned scholar in both Islamic and Latter-day Saint studies. The episode centers on the enduring testimonies of the Book of Mormon witnesses, exploring their experiences, the creation of the documentary Witnesses, and addressing prevalent criticisms surrounding their testimonies.

Guest Introduction and Background

Casey: Welcomes Dr. Daniel C. Peterson, highlighting his expertise and previous contributions to the podcast.

[00:47] Scott: "We came locked and loaded today with Daniel Peterson. So we're very excited to talk about Book of Mormon witnesses together."

Dr. Peterson shares his extensive academic background, including his PhD from UCLA, his role at Brigham Young University, and his involvement with the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship. He also discusses his collaborative work on the films Witnesses, Undaunted Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, and Six Days in August.

Creation of the Witnesses Documentary

Dr. Peterson elaborates on the inspiration and process behind producing the 2021 film Witnesses.

[02:49] Daniel C. Peterson: "One of our neighbors... was involved in a lot of filmmaking... We began thinking, well, maybe we ought to try to do this. ... Our primary focus became telling the story of the witnesses because many church members were unaware of their powerful testimonies."

The documentary aims to present the witnesses' stories in an accessible format, free of charge, to reach a broader audience.

[05:56] Scott: "Right. So if anyone wants to watch Witnesses, they can do it for free."

Importance of the Witnesses

The conversation shifts to the significance of the Book of Mormon witnesses and their testimonies.

[11:19] Casey: "Dan, I wanted to start with maybe you retelling an anecdote I heard..."

[12:47] Scott: "They are a lion in the path to just a purely secular worldview. It's like God dropped a bomb into secularism."

Dr. Peterson emphasizes the challenges critics face when addressing the witnesses, as their testimonies present tangible, corroborated experiences that defy simple explanations like hallucinations or conspiracies.

[14:05] Scott: "And it seems like Joseph was very aware of that."

Detailed Analysis of the Three Witnesses

Casey and Dr. Peterson delve into the backgrounds and testimonies of the three primary witnesses: Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris.

Oliver Cowdery

[17:38] Casey: "Give us an overview of Oliver Cowdery and his experience as a witness..."

Dr. Peterson describes Oliver as the intellectual among the three, a sharp scribe, and the second elder of the Church. Despite his eventual departure from the Church due to conflicts over economic policies and plural marriage, Oliver's unwavering testimony even after leaving adds credence to his witness.

[19:53] Daniel C. Peterson: "He remains faithful to his testimony even when it wasn't personally profitable."

David Whitmer

[26:25] Daniel C. Peterson: "He's the last surviving witness... he was a man of absolute integrity."

David Whitmer, known for his grumpy demeanor, consistently upheld his testimony despite facing excommunication and personal hardships. His steadfastness, even on his deathbed, underscores the authenticity of his witness.

[27:12] Casey: "David Whitmer's tombstone isn't hard to find... it says 'The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one. Truth is eternal.'"

Martin Harris

[38:00] Daniel C. Peterson: "Martin Harris... was a very successful, hard-headed farmer."

Martin Harris, older than his counterparts, played a crucial role in financing the Book of Mormon's publication. Despite facing financial ruin and personal loss, Martin's persistent testimony, even after leaving the Church, highlights his genuine belief in the Book of Mormon.

[42:37] Casey: "The document's on the Joseph Smith paper site."

Addressing Criticisms Against the Witnesses

Scott and Dr. Peterson tackle sophisticated arguments posed against the witnesses' testimonies.

Countering the "Spiritual Vision" Argument

[49:17] Daniel C. Peterson: "I don't even know what it means to see Jerusalem through a mountain..."

The claim that the witnesses had only spiritual visions without physical interaction with the plates is refuted by the tangible testimonies of the eight witnesses, who handled and examined the plates physically.

[53:48] Daniel C. Peterson: "Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable... But when it's in your interest to agree, then eyewitness testimony is the gold standard."

Reliability of Eyewitness Testimony

Dr. Peterson defends the credibility of the witnesses by comparing their testimonies to everyday eyewitness accounts, emphasizing that dismissing their experiences undermines the reliability of all eyewitness testimonies.

[55:43] Casey: "David Whitmer, you don't have to go far to find his thoughts..."

[62:50] Casey: "It's remarkable that a lot of these secondary witnesses are women."

The Role of Women as Witnesses

The discussion highlights the involvement of women among the unofficial witnesses, challenging the absence of female witnesses in the official testimonies.

[63:33] Daniel C. Peterson: "If you have a fraudulent object, you wouldn't leave it just covered and let others handle it... Emma Smith spends quality time with the plates."

This inclusion of female perspectives adds depth and diversity to the witness accounts, countering claims of gender bias in the testimonies.

The Enduring Legacy of the Witnesses

Dr. Peterson reflects on the lasting impact of the witnesses and their testimonies.

[73:28] Scott: "What's the best argument you've heard against them? None."

The witnesses' unwavering testimonies, even in the face of persecution and personal loss, serve as a cornerstone for Latter-day Saint belief in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

[74:08] Daniel C. Peterson: "They rank right up there among the most important secular evidences."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the podcast wraps up, Scott and Casey express their gratitude to Dr. Peterson for his invaluable insights.

[77:36] Scott: "Would like to end with maybe one more question, if that's okay... How has your study of the Book of Mormon witnesses strengthened your witness of the restoration itself?"

[74:08] Daniel C. Peterson: "That's an anchor, one of the anchors of my testimony, in a secular, academic way."

The episode underscores the profound significance of the Book of Mormon witnesses in affirming the restoration and enduring faith within the Latter-day Saint community.

Notable Quotes

• Daniel C. Peterson [02:49]: "Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses... it made me think that the witnesses were really, really important."

• Scott [14:05]: "And it seems like Joseph was very aware of that."

• Daniel C. Peterson [17:38]: "Oliver was... the second witness in a way, to Joseph Smith himself."

• Scott [35:08]: "If anyone could pull the rug out from underneath Joseph's whole enterprise here... they have to."

• Daniel C. Peterson [44:54]: "You can say that, you know, it's just Joseph's subjective experience... but the witnesses are there."

• Daniel C. Peterson [58:42]: "They are very different and they testify in a way to different things."

• Daniel C. Peterson [69:53]: "I can't see a way around it. Here are 11 reputable, sane, sincere witnesses who stood by their testimony through thick and thin."

Key Takeaways

• Unwavering Testimonies: The three primary witnesses—Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris—maintained their testimonies despite personal and financial hardships, enhancing their credibility.

• Documentary Support: The documentary Witnesses serves as a vital resource, making the witnesses' stories accessible to a broader audience.

• Countering Criticisms: The tangible experiences of the eight witnesses provide a robust defense against arguments dismissing the testimonies as mere spiritual visions or hallucinations.

• Inclusion of Women: The unofficial witnesses include several women, offering diverse perspectives and reinforcing the authenticity of the testimonies.

• Enduring Legacy: The consistent and steadfast testimonies of the witnesses continue to anchor and strengthen faith within the Latter-day Saint community.

Produced by: Scott Woodward
Edited by: Daniel Sorensen
Show Notes and Transcript by: Gabe Davis

Church History Matters is a podcast of Scripture Central, a nonprofit dedicated to making Latter-day Saints Scripture and Church history accessible, comprehensible, and defensible. For more resources, visit scripturecentral.org.