106 What a Soul Is Worth - Come Follow Me - E9 - Feb 24 - March 2

Summary

Church History Matters Podcast Episode 106: "What a Soul Is Worth - Come Follow Me - E9 - Feb 24 - March 2"

Release Date: February 18, 2025

In Episode 106 of the Church History Matters podcast, hosts Scott Woodward and Casey Griffiths delve deep into Section 18 of the Doctrine and Covenants, exploring its profound implications for the formation and trajectory of the Latter-day Saint Church. This episode, titled "What a Soul Is Worth," offers listeners an insightful analysis of foundational doctrines, historical controversies, and the enduring significance of early church revelations.

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1. Introduction to Section 18

The episode kicks off with Scott and Casey expressing initial intentions to cover Section 18 efficiently, only to realize the depth and complexity it warrants. Section 18 is pivotal as it addresses the roles of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, two of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon, in the nascent Church.

• Casey Griffiths ([00:49]): "Section 18 deals with Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer and what their role is going to be in the church."

2. Historical Context and Background

Scott provides a comprehensive backdrop, situating the revelation in June 1829 during the translation of the Book of Mormon in Fayette, New York. The section not only outlines the calling of the original quorum of the twelve apostles but also sets the stage for the Church's organizational framework.

• Scott Woodward ([02:16]): "Doctrine and covenants 18 is given that fateful summer of 1829... it's the calling of the original quorum of the twelve apostles that are gonna be so instrumental in the setup of the church."

3. Restoration of the Priesthood

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. The hosts examine the appearance of Peter, James, and John, drawing parallels between their restoration of apostolic keys and the restoration activities within the Church.

• Casey Griffiths ([07:20]): "You have the Book of Mormon to the printer... instructing Joseph to ordain Oliver to be an elder in the Church of Jesus Christ."

• Oliver Cowdery ([25:32]): "Remember, the worth of souls is great in the sight of God."

The revelation emphasizes the infinite worth of souls, highlighting Jesus Christ's sacrifice as the price paid for redemption. This theological foundation shapes the Church's missionary zeal and its approach to inviting individuals to repentance and baptism.

4. The Significance of the Book of Mormon

Casey and Scott underscore the Book of Mormon's pivotal role in shaping Church doctrine, structure, and practices. Unlike other Christian denominations that rely solely on the New Testament, the Latter-day Saint Church integrates teachings from the Book of Mormon, providing clarity on ecclesiastical functions such as baptism, sacrament administration, and priesthood ordination.

• Oliver Cowdery ([19:05]): "It's the Book of Mormon first. The Book of Mormon was the foundational piece..."

• Casey Griffiths ([21:33]): "The Book of Mormon is underestimated for how much it affects the structure and function of the church."

This integration ensures that Church practices are deeply rooted in sacred texts, differentiating it from other Christian movements and reinforcing doctrinal sincerity.

5. Controversies Surrounding Section 18

The episode doesn't shy away from addressing historical controversies, particularly regarding the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood and the selection of the original twelve apostles.

a. The Phineas Young Controversy

One such debate involves Phineas Young, the older brother of Brigham Young. Initially favored by the three witnesses to be part of the quorum of the twelve, Joseph Smith later suggested William Smith (Joseph's brother) instead. This decision has been scrutinized for its potential impact on Church leadership succession.

• Oliver Cowdery ([40:40]): "Phineas Young probably would have been the successor to Joseph Smith."

b. Restoration Events Timeline

Another intricate controversy revolves around the timing and sequence of priesthood restoration events. Historians like Richard Bushman propose that Peter, James, and John appeared after the Church's formal organization in 1830, based on secondhand accounts like that of Addison Everett. Scott and Casey present an alternative, suggesting a more integrated timeline aligning closely with Section 18's directives.

• Casey Griffiths ([55:05]): "Richard Bushman believes that Peter, James and John appeared after the church was organized."

• Oliver Cowdery ([52:11]): "Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony... declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom and the dispensation of the fullness of times."

They advocate for a multifaceted restoration process spanning several years, involving multiple sacred events and figures, rather than a simplistic single-event narrative.

c. Misinterpretations of Priesthood Restoration

The hosts also address misconceptions regarding the Restoration Proclamation (2020), clarifying that while it acknowledges multiple biblical figures in the restoration process, the early Church revelations focused primarily on John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John.

• Casey Griffiths ([45:43]): "The Restoration proclamation... includes Elijah, which lines up with Doctrine and Covenants 2 and others as part of this restoration too."

This exploration highlights the complexity and layered nature of priesthood restoration, emphasizing that it wasn't a solitary event but part of a broader divine orchestration.

6. Practical Implications and Church Doctrine

Section 18's teachings extend beyond historical events, offering timeless principles for Church members:

• Universal Worth of Souls: "Remember, the worth of souls is great in the sight of God." ([00:20])

• Method of Inviting Repentance: Emphasizing faith, hope, and charity over contention or criticism when engaging with others about repentance and baptism.

  • Oliver Cowdery ([29:34]): "Let that perspective inform your method in inviting people to repent."

• Organizational Blueprint: Guiding the creation of Doctrine and Covenants 20, which serves as the Church's constitution, outlining core doctrines and organizational structures.

• Importance of Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: Establishing a quorum that would lead and sustain the Church's mission, significantly influencing its future direction and leadership dynamics.

7. Conclusion: Consequences of Section 18

Scott and Casey sum up the profound impact of Section 18, emphasizing its role in:

1. Guiding Foundational Doctrine: Directing Oliver Cowdery to distill the Church's foundational principles from the Book of Mormon into the Articles of the Church of Christ.

2. Emphasizing Soul Worth: Highlighting the infinite value of each soul, rooted in Jesus Christ's sacrificial atonement, shaping the Church's evangelical mission.

3. Calling of the Twelve Apostles: Leading to the eventual selection and ordination of the twelve apostles who would steer the Church's growth and doctrinal integrity.

• Casey Griffiths ([67:27]): "Section 18, maybe better than anything, captures the core of what the church is all about..."

The episode concludes with anticipation for the next discussion on Section 19, promising further exploration of the Doctrine and Covenants and its enduring relevance.

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Notable Quotes:

• Casey Griffiths ([25:32]): "For behold, the Lord, your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh, wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him."

• Oliver Cowdery ([26:10]): "Let that perspective inform your method in inviting people to repent."

• Casey Griffiths ([28:53]): "The Message is repented the Methodist faith, hope, and charity."

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Final Thoughts:

Episode 106 of Church History Matters offers a meticulous examination of Section 18, unveiling its critical role in shaping Latter-day Saint theology and organizational structure. Through engaging dialogue and scholarly analysis, Scott and Casey guide listeners through historical intricacies and doctrinal nuances, reinforcing the enduring value of sacred revelations in guiding the Church's mission and values.

Transcript

[Casey Griffiths]

Foreign.

[Scott Woodward]

Come Follow Me edition, where we are systematically diving into every section of the Doctrine and Covenants throughout the year 2025.

[Oliver Cowdery]

We have a lot to talk about.

[Scott Woodward]

Today, so let's get into it.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Hello, Casey.

[Casey Griffiths]

Hello, Scott. Here we are once again.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Here we are diving into Section 18 of the Doctrine and Covenants, and they said, we get all day long on this. Just one section. This feels like we're being spoiled.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah, I know. And in our preliminary conversation, we were at first going, one section. We're going to get this done. And then we started getting into it and we kind of arrived back at, oh, I don't know if we can get this done.

[Oliver Cowdery]

How long is this going to take?

[Casey Griffiths]

This is juicy stuff. It's only, well, 47 verses, but there's a lot going on here historically that we need to address as well.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah, some really, really foundational stuff here that's going to set up the Church and its trajectory for the future here. I mean, we're talking about the calling of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. We're talking about a blueprint for the Church of Jesus Christ and other stuff. We got some controversies today about the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood and other things. And so, man, lots to talk about. Let's get into.

[Casey Griffiths]

I'll add, too, that if our last episode set up the three Witnesses and how important they are, this is the continuing story. Section 18 deals with Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer and what their role is going to be in the church. And then section 19, which we'll do next week, is sort of the Redemption of Martin Harris, where Martin Harris is still going through the repentance process for what happened with the lost manuscript. And some amazing things are taught to him. So in the story where we're centering this, this is still the saga of the three Witnesses and what God is going to have them do when it comes to the organization of the church.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah, excellent. So drop us into the backstory here. Cayce of doctrine and covenants 18.

[Casey Griffiths]

Okay, so doctrine and covenants 18 is given that fateful summer of 1829. And if you'll remember, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery start translating in April 1829, down in Harmony, Pennsylvania, in Emma Smith's hometown. But after about two months, persecution started to rear its ugly head there, and they needed to find another place where they could complete the translation. And Oliver reaches out to the Whitmers, these friends of his. They move up to Fayette, New York, and that's where they complete the last Month of translation. And that's why almost all the witnesses of the Book of Mormon are either members of the Smith family or members of the Whitmer family. This was probably given around the time that the witnesses had their experience. So we're dating it to June 1829 through Joseph Smith. And it concerns, like I said, two of the three witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. And it even points us forward to an event that's not gonna take place for another six years. That's the calling of the original quorum of the twelve apostles that are gonna be so instrumental in the setup of the church. So that's the big picture backstory. Let's get into specifics here. So this one could be traced back to March 1829. And Lord tells Joseph Smith that the beginning of the rising up and coming forth of my church was going to occur soon. That's doctrine and covenants 5, 14. This is the very first mention of a church in Joseph's revelations. And it might be the first moment it occurred to Joseph that his translation work with the Book of Mormon would lead to the establishment of a church.

[Oliver Cowdery]

That's an interesting thought, right?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

That maybe Joseph didn't fully connect that this was going to lead to a church. He initially seems to have felt like his role, his job, was to get the Book of Mormon out there.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

But this idea that this might lead to a church is starting to slowly coalesce in his mind.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. And that. That's an interesting little avenue to explore. Some historians have suggested that, yeah, Joseph Smith thought, I'm going to bring forth the Book of Mormon and put it out there to the world, and then I'm going to be a farmer. That's it. I'm going to lead a normal life. But the Lord is hinting at bigger things. And I think he may have had an inkling because in some accounts of the first vision, he says that I was going to play a role in bringing forth the kingdom of God. But he may have thought his role was to bring forth the Book of Mormon. And then we're off to the races. But now the Lord is telling him, no, there's going to be a church. In fact, two months later, in May 1829, the Lord tells Joseph Smith again that a church is going to be established. That's in doctrine and covenants 10, 53, 55. So it seems likely, and this is one of the controversies we're going to deal with, that around the latter part of May, Peter, James and John appear and ordain Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to the office of Apostle. They give them the apostolic keys. They confer upon them the keys of God's kingdom on earth for this dispensation, which, again, all this is relevant to the coming forth of the Church. And we're going to talk about the timing. Last time we talked about the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood, which is easy. We have the date, we have the location, we have the people involved. The appearance of Peter, James and John is more complex.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Difficult to pin down the exact dates, but we're going to give it a shot.

[Casey Griffiths]

Today we're thinking that the appearance of Peter, James and John happens sometime around when this revelation is being received, within a couple of weeks. There's good reasons for that to suggest that it's the latter part of May. That's when Peter, James and John appear, though there's not total uniformity as to when this happened. And we'll introduce you into some of the complexity there. So it's the following month, in June 1829, they get to the Whitmer farm, they finish translating the Book of Mormon, they're living with the Whitmer family, and they receive another important communication about the Melchizedek priesthood. This one is the Voice of God in the chamber of Father Whitmer. That's the way Joseph Smith describes it in section 128 of the Doctrine and Covenants. And that's where God gives them further details concerning the impending organization of the Church, including instructions about ordaining each other to the office of Elder, administering the sacrament, conferring the Holy Ghost upon people after they've been baptized. A lot of these essential instructions that are eventually going to show up in Section 20 of the Doctrine Covenants, which is given to help them organize the Church. Joseph Smith, concerning these instructions, says the following. He says, we were commanded to defer this our ordination until such times as it should be practicable to have our brethren who had been and who should be baptized, assembled together, when we must have their sanction to our thus proceeding to ordain each other and have them decide by vote whether they were willing to accept us as spiritual teachers or not. So this is introducing another principle that's common consent in the Church, where before a person's ordained a priesthood office, we usually ask for a sustaining vote, which has become sort of standard practice in the Church today.

[Oliver Cowdery]

So they receive instruction from God in His voice, authorizing Joseph and Oliver to ordain each other elders, administer the sacrament and confer the Holy Ghost upon people who've been previously baptized.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

But to not do it yet until you can have a body of them together who can sustain you in that. Is that right?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. And this is like we said, June of 1829.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah.

[Casey Griffiths]

So when is this body of believers going to get together and when are they going to formally organize a church? Probably later than they thought it would. Yeah, it's April 6, 1830, which is the day the church is organized. So almost a full year after this revelation is given. But in the meantime, there's a lot going on. They've got to get the Book of Mormon to the printer. They've got to convince a printer to print the Book of Mormon. They want to have copies of the Book of Mormon. Like, it seems like the printing process of the Book of Mormon is the reason why it's so long before they actually carry out this action. But all of this is just kind of pointing us towards the fact that In June of 1829, the idea of establishing a church was on the mind of everybody involved in the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. But the two people we're talking about here are Oliver Cowdery. This is Joseph's primary scribe, close associate and co witness of the visitation of Angels. Oliver's the one that's there when John the Baptist appears. Oliver's there when Peter, James and John appeared, Joseph and Oliver. And then later on in the Kirtland temple, Oliver's going to be the guy that's there when Moses, Elias and Elijah appear. But at this stage, they don't know how they're supposed to organize the church or what it's supposed to do. And so another thing that's happening is Joseph has directed Oliver to prepare a sort of founding document which would outline the basic beliefs and the basic practices of the church similar to what other churches had during that time. Sort of a constitution that would explain, here's what sets us apart, here's what makes us unique, here's what we do, here's what we believe. And this is eventually going to be doctrine and covenants 20, which they refer to as the Articles and Covenants of the Church. So we're leading up to that. And Joseph Smith basically directs Oliver to put this together.

[Oliver Cowdery]

So they have this idea of like, we gotta start a church. Yeah, they don't know how. Joseph's looking around left and right and saying, well, other churches seem to have like a blueprint, like a charter of some kind that they outline like their basic beliefs and structures. So Oliver, will you do that? Will you put that together for us?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

How does Oliver feel about that?

[Casey Griffiths]

I mean, it does say how much trust Joseph Smith had in Oliver. Like, Oliver's a smart guy, he's more educated than Joseph. It speaks to Joseph's humility too that he's assigning this, he's delegating, he's a good leader, I guess you'd say, but that would be pretty overwhelming, right? I come to you and say, hey, can you put together a document that describes our beliefs, what makes us unique, our practices and all that? And I would feel overwhelmed. And apparently Oliver felt overwhelmed. Like, let's put things in context here. Oliver is 22 years old and he's very well educated. He's a smart guy. That's a lot to ask a 22 year old. And I know, I teach 22 year olds. Asking them to put together something like doctrine and covenants 20 would be a tall order. As wonderful as they are, it's understandable that Oliver approaches Joseph Smith and says, hey, could we ask the Lord for guidance on this? This is a smart thing for him to do. And so in the presence of Oliver and David Whitmer, Joseph does exactly that. He approaches the Lord for direction on what they should put into this founding document specifically, as well as this is the way he describes it in his 1838 history, Instructions relative to the building up of the Church of Christ that the Lord saw fit to offer them. They ask the Lord, hey, how do we go down this road? What do we need to do? And that's going to lead us eventually to the organization of the Church and doctrine and covenants 20, which some people have called the Constitution of the Church, because that's basically what it is. Yeah, that's the basic operating instructions which the contemporary saints refer to as the Articles and Covenants of the Church. And I mean, the way I introduce section 20 to my class is to say it's the Doctrine and Covenants before we had a Doctrine and covenants.

[Oliver Cowdery]

So section 18 is the Lord's answer to Oliver's question, like, can I get a little help here on creating a charter, a blueprint constitution for the Church? Yeah, and Joseph also seems to throw in there in the question, any other instructions you have, Lord, relative to building up the Church of Christ? We would appreciate that that seems to.

[Casey Griffiths]

Set up section 18, a lot of stuff here. But again, now we're not just bringing forth this book, we're going to create a new church, we're going to bring forth a new religion, which sometimes we just assume this all Showed up prepackaged, wrapped up with a nice little bow. When these sections do kind of show the line upon line process that leads them to, I mean even the idea that they were going to found a church was sort of novel them and the Lord is leading them line upon line towards that idea.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Here's a 23 year old prophet and a 22 year old scribe. And how are we supposed to do this, Lord? And here we go. Section 18 is the answer.

[Casey Griffiths]

Here we go. Yep. So that's the context. Foreign.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Let's dive into the content here. So the Lord begins this revelation by directly addressing Oliver Cowdery's concern about writing this founding document by saying verse one, quote, now behold, because of the thing which you, my servant Oliver Cowdery, have desired to know of me, I give unto you these words. Behold, I have manifested unto you by my spirit in many instances that the things which you have written are true. What's he talking about here? Remember, Oliver Cowdery has just been personally scribing the entirety of the Book of Mormon as we have it today, right? Almost single handedly. So the Lord is saying, you have really good question about how to write a founding document about this new church. Now I have manifested many times to you, Oliver, that the things that you have been writing from the Book of Mormon are true. And so then he says this, wherefore you know that they are true. And if you know that they, the things you've been writing in the Book of Mormon pages are true, behold, I give unto you a commandment that you rely upon the things which are written. In other words, Oliver need look no further than the freshly inked pages of the Book of Mormon manuscript themselves for rich material on the core doctrine, the core structure and the core practices of the Lord's Church. The Lord continues quote, for in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel and my rock. The Lord says, wherefore if you shall build up my church upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you. Here you go, right up the chute. The Lord is giving Oliver the way to write the blueprint that he seeks to write as the foundation of the church. And Oliver does take this counsel to heart. He will pour over the loose pages of the Book of Mormon manuscript and draw therefrom abundant material which he is either going to quote directly or closely paraphrase in his founding document, which he will call the Articles of the Church of Christ. In fact, more than half of Oliver's Finished document will consist of direct quotations from the Book of Mormon drawing primarily actually from Jesus's teachings in Third Nephi and Moroni's descriptions of church practices in the Book of Mormon. Right. If you think about it, when Jesus comes down in Third Nephi, that's where he explains about his church, the proper mode of baptism. He introduces the sacrament. Right. We're going to get Jesus kind of laying things out in Third Nephi. And at the very end of the Book of Mormon, kind of in the Book of Mormon bonus material, you have Moroni outlining like the sacrament prayers, how to ordain priests, how to baptize, et cetera. Right. And so from that material, Oliver Cowdery is going to be drawing and putting that right into his founding document. And then what's kind of cool is the rest of the material in this founding document that Oliver writes is going to come in large measure straight from this revelation that we're about to continue on to read. And so section 18 itself provides some of the blueprint for that. So very, very cool.

[Casey Griffiths]

Very, very cool. And later on, I think it's section 68.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Right.

[Casey Griffiths]

They're condemned for not using the Book of Mormon enough, but it is really fair to say that at this early stage, they are using the Book of Mormon a lot. Yes, it speaks to their sincerity and the importance of the Book of Mormon. First of all, they're just doing what the Lord told them to do. But I was just reading through section 20 and yeah, pretty much everything in there is taken from the teachings in the Book of Mormon right down to the sacrament prayers, to the description of how to baptize. They are using this. And that does speak to their sincerity of what they're doing.

[Oliver Cowdery]

It's hard to overstate the significance of the Book of Mormon in terms of shaping the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You know, sometimes we like to say that this church is the restoration of the New Testament Church, you know, but honestly, that's not quite the full story. As we could see right here, when the Lord wanted to establish the foundational doctrines and ordinances and structure and practices of his Latter Day Church, he didn't tell Oliver Cowdery to go to the New Testament. He said, go to the teachings of the Book of Mormon that you've been describing. Go get it there. Now, that said, the church will not be exclusively based on the Book of Mormon. Right. For instance, to restore the foundational keys of authority, the Lord's going to send messengers from the New Testament. We're going to get John the Baptist. Well, we already got John the Baptist on May 15, 1829. That's already happened. And we're going to get Peter, James and John, which we're going to argue in just a minute. We think that has already happened by this point. And so now we've got some New Testament elements. And then in the years to come, like in 1836, the Lord's going to add some key elements from the Old Testament. We're going to get, for instance, keys from Moses, Elias and Elijah. And then it's not just going to be ancient stuff either. Like all along the way, the prophet Joseph is authorized to incorporate even some modern elements into the church, such as Methodist style, general conferences, Protestant hymns, Masonic ritual forms. Right. And he's going to synthesize all of these together into one syncretic whole. At the end of what the Church is going to eventually look like, we're going to have Book of Mormon, New Testament, Old Testament and modern elements all kind of perfectly fit together. But what we're trying to emphasize right now is, is it was the Book of Mormon first. The Book of Mormon was the foundational piece to all of us when it comes to doctrine, when it comes to practice, when it comes to structure. This is a Book of Mormon based church. That's pretty significant.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. And you made me think while you were talking here of section 42, which is sort of the next foundational document after section 20. It's called the Law of the Church. It's where the law of consecration is. But one overlooked part is verse 12. And again the elders and priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my Gospel which are found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in which is the fullness of the gospel. So there's been various times, you know, President Benson in the 80s condemned the church for not using the Book of Mormon.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah.

[Casey Griffiths]

That came after a period of assimilation when we were trying to be like everybody else. But it does seem like the Lord wants us to emphasize the distinctive characteristics of the church. And one of them is we use the Bible and the Book of Mormon. And the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel.

[Oliver Cowdery]

That's a great point. And they're together. They don't compete with us. They don't compete, they just perfectly complete one another. Right. And where there is some ambiguity in the New Testament, for instance, on how to do the Lord's sacrament, the Lord's Supper, what's the right way to administer bread and the cup, and the Book of Mormon Nails it. It just tells you what words should we say when we baptize people. The New Testament's ambiguous. The Book of Mormon nails it. It's just clear that says, say it like this. Jesus, like, explains it in 35, 11. Say it like this. Go to the water and say these words. How do we ordain priests? How do we ordain that? That Book of Mormon just explicitly explains it. That's why we're relying on the Book of Mormon here. But as the New Testament adds more clarity than the Book of Mormon, then we're grabbing from that.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

And so it's not like one is ideologically, like we prefer one over the other. It's just like we're looking for the truth and we're looking for what the Lord wants. Obviously, section 18 is showing us why it started with the Book of Mormon, because the Lord told Oliver, start there. Look there. Yeah, that's where the rock is. That's where my foundation is. That's where my gospel is really clearly articulated.

[Casey Griffiths]

Let me add, the Book of Mormon is underestimated for how much it affects the structure and function of the church. Yeah, I remember I was at a John Whitmer Historical association conference once, and that's where kind of Community of Christ and our church meet together. And these two guys from Community of Christ were praising these books published in the 1970s. And their argument was, well, there's not very much ecclesiology in the New Testament. And ecclesiology is just a $10 word for instructions on how to run the church. And they were like, because there's no ecclesiology, we needed these books that were written by our curriculum team to help us know what to do. And I remember sitting in the meeting and raising my hand and saying, hey, guys, there's tons of ecclesiology in the Book of Mormon. Like, there's a lot of stuff that could help. And they just sort of brushed me off, like, seriously, the Book of Mormon? And it was one of the first times that I realized, hey, one big difference between the two faiths is the role the Book of Mormon has played in setting up the structure and operations of the Church. It's just very. That's why our churches look very different, is because we followed the Book of Mormon. And I'm not going to say that they don't believe in the Book of Mormon. I know many people from Community of Christ do. But these two scholars from Community of Christ looked at me like I was from Mars when I brought up the ecclesiology that was in The Book of Mormon.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Right Here in verses 1 through 5, we see how the Lord feels about that. Right. This is capturing a key moment in the early development of the Lord's Latter Day Church, which will ultimately come to embody an inspired multi dispensational fusion of practices, doctrine and authority. But it starts first with the Book of Mormon. Okay, so let's move to verse six. Is that okay?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

So starting at verse six, the Lord describes the fundamental need for and the work of his church. So we're going to establish a church. What does it do? What's it for? And he says this quote, behold, the world is ripening in iniquity, and it must needs be that the children of men are stirred up unto repentance. And then he names two basic subgroups of the human family, both the Gentiles and also the House of Israel. Now, there was a bygone ancient day when the Lord largely focused his efforts only on calling the house of Israel to repentance. But that is not this day. That all changed in the era of the New Covenant or the New Testament. That's when the Lord now commands all men everywhere to repent. Jews, Gentiles, everybody. And the recently baptized Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, the Lord says here were to help the Lord get this word out. To underscore this point, the Lord compares Oliver and David, to quote Paul, mine apostle. For you are called, he said, even with that same calling with which he was called. And recall that Paul was the first person ever explicitly called to preach to both the Gentiles and the children of Israel, both subgroups of the human family that were mentioned here in verse six. So Oliver and David are being commissioned with that same task, not just to preach to the house of Israel, but to Gentiles and Israel, everybody. The Lord then tenderly explains in the following verses what they are to remember when calling people to repentance. And I cannot overstate how much I love these verses. Yeah, here's what he says. Let's go. Verse 10. Remember, the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. And to quantify exactly what that worth is, the Lord explains in verse 11. I love this. For behold, the Lord, your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh, wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him. And he hath risen again from the dead that he might bring all men unto him on conditions of repentance. Here the Lord is describing something of what I'd call a sacred equation. So if the worth of each soul is directly proportional to the price paid to redeem it, then Cayce the worth of every single soul was openly declared at Calvary upon Jesus death to be infinite. I think that's powerful. Jesus infinite sacrifice announced our infinite worth, and his death and resurrection opened the way for everyone to repent and come unto him. He's saying here, so no wonder he says in the next verse, how great is his joy in the soul that repenteth. Wherefore he says to Oliver and David, you are called to cry repentance unto this people, and if it so be, that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people and bringing, save it, be one soul unto me. How great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father. And thus, of course, how much greater will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me. He says, and I just love this, Casey, that when the Lord is saying, cry repentance unto all Gentiles and house of Israel, he's not saying to furrow your brow and to tell people how awful they are and to threaten them with hellfire and damnation. What he's saying is, when you are called to share the message of repentance, will you just keep this in mind? Will you keep in mind that the people that you're talking to have souls of infinite worth that I paid for with my blood, that they are infinitely valuable to me. And so let that shape the way that you deliver that message, will you? I just think that's so powerful, really powerful.

[Casey Griffiths]

And I feel a little guilty like I was going after Community of Christ earlier. The verse that we all agree on, right? Especially, you know, people in other churches. I think maybe the best introduction to the way that we see the world is that verse 10, remember, the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. That's the starting point, right? And just like you said, the worth is compared to why the Savior suffered and what he did for us. He did it because of the worth of souls. And if we have that firmly ingrained in our minds and hearts, we do see people and treat people a lot differently than if we didn't.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Let that perspective inform your method in inviting people to repent. That's so cool.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. And it's so cool that these are the first instructions a person that's called as an apostle are given. He says, given the same calling as Paul. Here's what I need you to know.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah.

[Casey Griffiths]

One, the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. Two, they're worth so much that I, your Lord, and your redeemer suffered death to save them.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah. Maybe we could call this the apostolic perspective. Right?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah. You're going to be one that represents me and is sent out to declare repentance. Then I would like you to have this perspective, please. Of course, that applies to anyone who ever dare invite someone to repent. This ought to inform all of us, parents, every teacher in the church. I mean, the original audience here is Oliver and David, but wow, the universal applicability of this is awesome. Anytime we want to call somebody out, it's good to check our motive, right? To say, who am I concerned about here? Right. Am I concerned about how they wronged me? Or am I concerned about the infinite worth of their soul? Maybe that will change the tenor of the relationship and the way the method, the approach in trying to reconcile and invite people to change. Okay, now the Lord explains in the next verses, verses 17 through 22, everything they'll need to know to be able to help people repent and come unto Christ. So he's not done explaining how to do this. First, he says, you have my gospel before you and my rock and my salvation. This is likely a reference to the contents of the Book of Mormon. If we see back in verses four and five, the Book of Mormon contains my gospel, my rock, my salvation. So you've got that. You've got the Book of Mormon and what it contains. Second, he says you are to ask the Father for the guidance of the Holy Ghost in this work. Third, he says they are to remember that if you have not faith, hope and charity, you can do nothing. In other words, again, trying to call people to repentance without faith, hope and charity is ineffective. It is futile. Both the message and the method matter. Right? The message is to repent, yes. But the method needs to be clothed and bathed in faith, hope and charity. If you have the right message but you go about it in the wrong way, the Lord's saying here, it's going to be futile. You must bathe it in these three things. For instance, he goes on to say, you are to, quote, contend against no church. Don't be bashing with other churches. Except, he says, of course, the church of the devil. That's okay.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah, it's okay. It's okay to fight the devil.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah, fight the devil. Fight the devil, Contend. Yes, but he says you are not to attack and fight with other Christian churches. Ooh, how often do we get that one wrong amongst ourselves as Christians? Right?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

He says, rather, here's what you are to do. You are to take upon yourselves the name of Christ and with faith, hope and charity simply speak the truth in soberness. Then he says, quote as many as repent and are baptized in My name and endure to the end shall be saved. This is how people are brought to Christ and take upon themselves his name and all mankind. He says all mankind must take upon themselves the name of Christ in order to be saved. In the kingdom of my Father. The message is repented the Methodist faith, hope and charity. The reason for that is so that people can take upon themselves the name of Christ and be able to come and be with him in His Father's kingdom. Anything you want to say about that before we move on?

[Casey Griffiths]

I want to circle back to that. Contend against no church. We all, maybe most of us that serve missions ran into that idea of Bible bashing or criticizing another church. I served in the south and man in one area we were in every door that was opened it felt like somebody was dropping an anti Mormon argument. So this member gave me this book called One Minute Answers to Anti Mormon Questions. And I remember I read it all like in one night. And the next day when we went out tracting, I was loaded for bear and the first person that opened the door, you know, said something and I laid into him and I wiped him off the floor. You know, I just next two or three doors, boom, boom boom. Finally, because I was like a two month missionary at this point, my senior companion turned to me and said, hey, at the next door, just don't talk. And I remember going, but we're killing him here. And he goes, yeah, but you're not converting them. What you're doing is not helpful. And I would say that I was winning a lot of arguments because I knew the exact verbal traps to lure them into and then drop the hammer. But the Lord really is giving good counsel here when he says the job isn't to contend with other churches. The job is to contend, demonstrate charity, to show love and to teach the truth. And yeah, maybe you're called upon to defend the truth from time to time, but that never takes the place of charity and love when it comes to converting people to the gospel.

[Oliver Cowdery]

And you remember back in section 10 of the doctrine and Covenants where the Lord said there's a lot of people of my church. Anyone who repents and comes unto me is my church. I love those people. So yeah, verse 20 is worth just pausing for a minute. Contend against no church except the church of the devil. Like let's not call out the Baptists. Let's not call out the Catholics. Let's not bash with Evangelicals. Right. That's the wrong approach here.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

With faith, hope and charity, let's invite everyone to come unto Jesus and take upon themselves his name. That's it.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

He wants to rest with them in his Father's kingdom.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. It's so much more effective. And I'm offering this as my apology to the people of South Florida for the way I acted. Yeah. I was young, and I didn't know what I was doing.

[Oliver Cowdery]

May your conscience be clean, and may you, from this moment forward, Casey Griffiths, apply the principles of section 18.

[Casey Griffiths]

Got this off my chest.

[Oliver Cowdery]

All right, let's keep going. Verses 26 to 32. Now ramp things up. This is where the Lord announces that there are 12 others who are going to be called to declare my gospel, as did the Apostle Paul to both Gentile and Jew. He says they are called the twelve disciples. Isn't that interesting? He calls them the disciples. That's a Book of Mormon phrase, right? Isn't it? The 12 disciples. And these will be patterned after the 12 in third Nephi, the book of Mormon. And he says, these are going to be men who desire to take upon them my name with full purpose of heart. Their sacred role is going to mirror the role of the 12 disciples from the Book of Mormon, the ones who are called to preach Christ's Gospel, to baptize in his name, and to ordain priests and teachers. Then in verse 31, 36, the Lord speaks directly to those future 12 who will be called. It's like the camera kind of shifts, and he's kind of looking directly at the twelve apostles of the future, the twelve disciples that will be called. And we know, like you mentioned, it's not going to be for six more years. We're not going to have a quorum of the 12 until 1835, Valentine's Day, 1835. And so these words will actually be read to the 12 when they're called six years hence. Here's what the Lord says. First of all, He. He comforts them to know that in their feelings of inadequacy, his grace is sufficient for them. Yet he says, you must walk uprightly before me and sin not. He says, they are to ordain priests and teachers and declare His Gospel. He assures them that these words are from him and not from man. Wherefore he says, quote, you shall testify they are of me. It was His Spirit, after all, that inspired these words. And it's by his power, they can read them to one another, he says. So in that sense, they can actually testify that they have heard his voice and know his words. In verse 37, 39, the Lord then directs his words again back to Oliver and David, giving them a charge to search out these 12 apostles, these disciples. They will recognize them, the Lord says, by their desires and their works. And when they find them, they are to show the 12, verses 31 through 36 we just highlighted, and it seems verse 40, 47 as well, in which the Lord seems again to be addressing the future 12 apostles. And so the 12 are to preach to the world, saying, quote, you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, for all men must repent and be baptized. And women and children old enough to be accountable as well they are to keep God's commandments in all things and by your hands. The lord assures the 12, I will work a marvelous work among the children of men unto the convincing of many of their sins, so that they may come unto repentance and thereby be enabled to come unto the kingdom of my Father. Then the Lord concludes this section by soberly informing them that because they will be given blessings above all things, Speaking of the 12, he will hold them especially accountable. If you keep not my commandments, he warns, you cannot be saved in the kingdom of my Father. These are the words of their Lord God and Redeemer, spoken by the power of the Spirit, he says. Section 18. Casey. This plays a big role in getting our first quorum of the twelve apostles. We don't know exactly when Oliver and David began their search for the 12 disciples according to the Lord's instructions here. But we do know that about five and a half years later, February 1835, when the first apostles are called, Oliver Cowdery states at that meeting, he says that this revelation, section 18, given way back in June 1829, he said, he said of this quote, our minds have been on a constant stretch to find who these 12 were ever since that revelation. So five and a half years, he says, my mind has been stretched and searching for you, which is cool. Do you want to say anything about that meeting of the 14th of February, 1835, when the apostles are actually called?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. There is a charge to the 12 that Oliver Cowdery gives. My understanding is it's still read when a new member of the 12 is chosen and given to them. But it's something that Oliver Cowdery writes, and it's very, very well written and very eloquent. But In a larger sense, I've always thought of doctrine and covenants. 18 is the charge to the 12. You know, these basic instructions. First thing, know that the worth of souls is great. That's why Jesus died. And then sends them out to go and do their thing. So Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer and Martin Harris are going to search out, find these 12 apostles and then give them the charge, which Oliver does specifically. And that starts right here. And I'm okay with the idea that it was six years later that this happened. Just like Oliver said, they needed a little time to kind of get to know who the 12 were going to be, where they were coming from. And I mean, a huge influence on this also is Zion's camp, where a lot of the men in the church go on this 800 mile journey with Joseph Smith and he gets an opportunity to know them really well. So, yeah, all things in good time. But it's just kind of neat that these seeds are being planted, you know, almost a full year before the church is restored.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah. Do you know when Martin Harris got added to this group? Because section 18 is only to Oliver and David. But on the 14th of February, 1835, Joseph comes to Oliver, David and Martin and says, it's time, guys, it's time to pray and choose the 12 as section 18 said to do you know when Martin gets added to the mix?

[Casey Griffiths]

I don't, I'm just spitballing here, but I would guess that if two of the three witnesses were asked to do this and Martin wasn't, that there might be some bruised egos there or anything. And he did a fine job, you know, the original quorum of the 12. He did great, is a great group of people, but no, yeah. I don't know when Martin was added to that elite list right there.

[Oliver Cowdery]

And it's so interesting that the Lord basically allows the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon to choose the special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world. The minutes of that meeting in 1835, February, says that Oliver, David and Martin quote, united in prayer, after which they were then blessed by the laying on of the hands of the first Presidency. And then according to a former commandment it says, which is Doctrine Covenants 18, they proceeded to make choice of the 12. That's it. So the three witnesses set apart by the First Presidency to do this, then go and select the 12 apostles. So pretty incredible. Obviously that's going to have a major impact on the future of the church.

[Casey Griffiths]

Oh yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Which men get chosen, what order they're chosen. All of that is going to play a role in shaping the future of the church.

[Casey Griffiths]

And also, you know, the role that the quorum of the 12 has played in the history of the church. You get the feeling in some of the early documents that the quorum of the 12 was just going to be sort of a traveling high council. They would play the same role that a stake high council plays just in areas where there were no stakes, but because of the quality of the people that they chose. And, I mean, this early quorum has guys like David Patton and Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball and Parley P. Pratt and Orson Pratt, and just names that become huge in the history of the church, A couple other names that don't. It's interesting that revelations like section 18 are already pointing us towards the quorum of the 12 playing a much bigger role than even the early members of the church may have realized they were going to play. And when we look at succession and who becomes president of the church after Joseph Smith, it's hard to underestimate the importance of the quorum of the 12.

[Oliver Cowdery]

All right, should we talk about some controversies?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah, let's do some controversies. Okay, so where to begin? Where to begin?

[Oliver Cowdery]

Where to begin? Maybe briefly, we should talk about the controversy of Phineas Young. Shall we?

[Casey Griffiths]

Let's talk about that. And that one we can do fairly quickly. And I'll point you back. We did a series on succession. That man, I think, is our longest series. And it had to be told to stop. Like, we didn't want to stop. So many interesting things happen. But in 1835, the three witnesses are choosing the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. One of the names that they put forward was Phineas Young, who is the older brother of Brigham Young. And the three witnesses felt really strongly that Phineas should be a member of the quorum of the 12. However, apparently Joseph Smith approached them and asked if William Smith, his brother, could serve instead of Phineas Young. We talked about William Smith a couple weeks ago with Kyle Walker. William Smith was a brilliant preacher, a good leader, but he was a little.

[Oliver Cowdery]

A little bit of a hothead.

[Casey Griffiths]

He was a hothead. He was kind of unsteady. He had some issues. It's tempting to just say, what if? Because if Phineas Young had been placed in the quorum of the 12, he would have been the president. Because they went in seniority by age. That means that not Brigham Young, but Phineas Young probably would have been the successor to Joseph Smith. And the name Phineas Young would be known by a lot more people than it is today. Now, that's not to say Phineas didn't play a big role. He played a big role in, for instance, convincing Oliver Cowdery to come back into the church. He's Oliver Cowdery's brother in law. And in a number of other situations, phineas becomes a 70 and does great things. But that's one of those things, too, that we found out was that the question of succession and seniority and everything like that kind of worked themselves out over time and weren't set in stone. So that's one.

[Oliver Cowdery]

The controversy here is what the three witnesses were chosen to choose the 12. And when they came back with the 12, Joseph asked if Phineas Young could be a little sidelined in preference for his brother William Smith. And Kyle Walker told us that Joseph said that he believed this was essential for William Smith's salvation, that he be placed in the quorum of the 12. And so, I mean, on the one hand, you know, let the 12 do their job. Right? I mean, that's where the controversy is. On the other hand, it's like, well, they are acting under the direction of the First Presidency. So of course, the president of the church has the final prerogative and say to be able to select the quorum of the 12. But that is an interesting little wrinkle in church history here.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah, it's an interesting what if? And again, I'm not saying that Joseph Smith acted inappropriately.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Right. He's the president. He could do it.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. The three witnesses would act under the direction of the president of the church and in collaboration with him. But it's just a little tempting to say, what if. What if Phineas Young had become the president of the 12?

[Oliver Cowdery]

You'd be teaching at PYU.

[Casey Griffiths]

I would be. That's right. Yeah. It would be PYU, which I'm glad things worked out the way. I'm just saying things worked out the way that they were supposed to. But hey, what if?

[Oliver Cowdery]

That's kind of a minor controversy. Let's talk about bigger controversy, which is the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood.

[Casey Griffiths]

Ooh, that's a good one. That's a really good one because this section introduces the term apostle. In fact, one of the controversies we toyed with dealing with was are Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer apostles. The Lord here seems to think that they are. He says, you were given the same calling as Paul. And some people have argued this by saying, well, maybe they were small lowercase. A apostles apostle means One sent forth, meaning just somebody sent forth to preach the Gospel. But in the church, there's also capital A apostles, which means this is a job, a specific calling. And the Lord in the later part of the section seems to be treating it that way.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Is he saying that Oliver and David have the same calling as Paul, meaning apostle, or they have the same calling as Paul, meaning one called to preach to the Gentiles? The language there can be ambiguous, but let's roll with this because he does talk about apostles in this section.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. We also today have a very kind of set view of an apostle and what an apostle does. Yes, an apostle is a member of the quorum of the 12. The first presidency for the last century or so has typically just been apostles, but it hasn't always been that way. We've kind of found that out in our succession series that there have been apostles who weren't members of the quorum of the 12. It was a while before Joseph F. Smith, for instance, was brought into the Quorum of the twelve. He was ordained an apostle first. There have been apostles at large. The last one was Alvin R. Dyer, who was ordained an apostle by David O. McKay, but was not put into the Quorum of the Twelve. And so I'm comfortable either way, if they're being sent forth, and that's just what apostle means here, or if they're capital A apostles. Either way, it works. They don't ever become members of the quorum of the 12. Oliver and David don't. But either way, verbally, it works.

[Oliver Cowdery]

So let's layer on some controversy here. So some people think that Peter, James, and John restored the Melchizedek priesthood.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

What's wrong with that, Cayce?

[Casey Griffiths]

Well, I mean, our mutual friend Anthony Sweatt has a thing he does with his classes where he gets up in front of them and says, class, who restored the priesthood? And the classes will say, john the Baptist and Peter, James and John. And he'll say, okay, show me in the Scriptures where it says that. And they'll search around a little bit and maybe go to section 13 and talk about the Aaronic Priesthood, which we did last week. But then Tony will take him to Section 2 of the Doctrine and Covenants where it says, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah the prophet. That's an early section of the Doctrine and Covenants. And how come Elijah never comes up in these conversations? And let me maybe add some fuel to the controversy by pointing out that the recent Restoration Proclamation, which was written by the entire First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve and was published in 2020, so not super long ago, describes priesthood restoration in interesting terms like. Can I read a paragraph from the Restoration Proclamation?

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yep, read it.

[Casey Griffiths]

Okay, here we go. This is paragraph 4 in the Restoration proclamation and it reads, we affirm that under the direction of the Father and the Son, heavenly messengers came to instruct Joseph and re establish the Church of Jesus Christ. The resurrected John the Baptist restored the authority to baptize by immersion for the remission of sins. Three of the original 12 apostles, Peter, James and John, restored the apostleship and keys of priesthood authority. Others came as well, including Elijah, who restored the authority to join families together forever in eternal relationships that transcend death. So the first presidency and the 12 are painting a more complicated picture than John the Baptist and Peter, James and John. They add in Elijah, which lines up with Doctrine and Covenants 2 and others as part of this restoration too. So how do you square all that?

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah, so I think it's important to notice what they didn't say. They did not say Peter, James and John restored the Melchizedek priesthood. That's not scriptural. They did not do that. Section 27, where the Lord himself is speaking about this, says that he restored the apostleship and the keys of the kingdom through Peter, James and John. While this might be kind of news to a lot of listeners to kind of think about this, it's more accurate to say that Peter, James and John bringing the apostleship and the keys of the kingdom was one step in a multi step process of restoring the Melchizedek priesthood. If you want to say it that way, Melchizedek priesthood restoration is not an event, not a single event. This is a process strung out over the course of about seven years. Should we walk through a few of the other events real quick?

[Casey Griffiths]

Walk us through them. Yeah.

[Oliver Cowdery]

For instance, number one, Peter, James and John. Number two, we mentioned that God's voice was heard in the chamber of Father Whitmer right there in Fayette, New York, authorizing the ordaining of elders and the conferral of the Holy Ghost. That moment is another one of the moments of many in the process of restoring Melchizedek priesthood. Then Fast forward to June 1, 1831 in Kirtland, Ohio, on the Isaac Morley farm. Here's a moment where the holy order of God is restored or the high priesthood order of God is restored. What Joseph Smith calls the Melchizedek priesthood order. It's the first time he starts using the word Melchizedek to talk about priesthood here in the 1831 conference in June in Kirtland, Ohio. Then fast forward five years to Kirtland, Ohio, where we get Moses, Elias and Elijah restoring keys of the priesthood. And you mentioned Elijah in section two. Here's where Elijah first shows up. 1836, April 3rd. Another key event, no pun intended here, in the restoration of Melchizedek priesthood. Then in 1841, Doctrine and Covenants 124 says, you need to build the Nauvoo Temple because I need a place where I can restore the fullness of the priesthood. This is 1841, Cayce. And the Lord says, we're not done yet. You're not done with the restoration of priesthood. And so it's a little more complicated than saying, John the Baptist came and restored Aaronic priesthood. Peter, James and John came and restored the Melchizedek priesthood. The end. No, not the end. That's actually kind of near the beginning that Peter, James and John restore the keys of the apostleship and the keys of the kingdom, which seemed to be necessary to organize the church. April 6, 1830. So that's kind of the first piece of what we wanted to say is it's a little more complicated than that.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah, And I get that we simplify. Yeah, we simplify because we have to for other people. And that generally is John the Baptist restored the Aaronic priesthood. Peter, James and John restored the Melchizedek priesthood. And that's okay. That's not untrue.

[Oliver Cowdery]

It's just incomplete. Can we say that it's just incomplete?

[Casey Griffiths]

It's just incomplete. Right. It's the beginning of the story and not the end of it.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah.

[Casey Griffiths]

Seems like in the restoration proclamation, the First Presidency in 12 are pointing us towards a greater complexity. We're talking about multiple events involving numerous biblical figures that assist in this restoration of authority. That's a better model if we're embracing complexity, to say, hey, priesthood was restored through a series of events over a longer period of time. Not just these two events and one.

[Oliver Cowdery]

More layer of complexity. It's not just about bringing God's authority back. It's about creating a people who are prepared to rule and reign with Jesus when he comes. Now, we're going to have to talk more about that later, but priesthood, what is the priesthood? Oh, man, let's park it there. Let's bookmark that for a future conversation. Maybe section 84. We'll start getting into this more, but it's a little more complex even. What is the priesthood? Yeah, we'll dig deeper as The Doctrine and Covenants takes us there.

[Casey Griffiths]

Okay, so priesthood restoration is a multifaceted event. Good. Can I introduce another controversy?

[Oliver Cowdery]

Okay.

[Casey Griffiths]

Okay. So the controversy here is we're not saying Peter, James, and John didn't appear and they didn't restore things, but when did this happen?

[Oliver Cowdery]

When did Peter, James, and John restore the apostleship and the keys of the kingdom?

[Casey Griffiths]

When and under what conditions did they appear? Yes, is the big question, because here's the challenge. Okay. John the Baptist appearing. Easy peasy. Joseph Smith gives us the exact date. May 15, 1829. The circumstances. They were translating the Book of Mormon. They read a passage about authority to baptize. They went out into the woods to pray. That's even the approximate location. Somewhere near Harmony, Pennsylvania, in the cabin where they were translating. They go out and John the Baptist appears, and he gives them the authority and then commands them to baptize each other and then ordain each other. Like all that happens on May 15th. Ooh, we got that sewn up.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Well documented. Super well documented.

[Casey Griffiths]

It's well documented. Joseph Smith was very, very specific when it comes to the appearance of Peter, James, and John. We got to do a little bit more detective work to kind of figure this out. So when did they appear? Where did they appear? What did Joseph Smith say, and what did they restore? Like you just said is even another question. What did they bring back? We got to do a little detective work to figure this out.

[Oliver Cowdery]

So can I drop our first clue?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah, first clue. Go ahead.

[Oliver Cowdery]

So the first clue, I think, is section 128, verse 20. Right. This is written, like, way later in Nauvoo.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. 1843, I believe. 42.

[Oliver Cowdery]

And Joseph says this. He says, Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county and Colesville, Broome county on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom and the dispensation of the fullness of times. Close quote. So there's his hint. He tells us location between Colesville, just over the Pennsylvania border, south part of New York, somewhere between Colesville and then Harmony, right there in northern Pennsylvania along the Susquehanna River.

[Casey Griffiths]

Okay, so that gives us a location of where Peter, James, and John appeared. Can I add another layer of complexity here? Okay, so in Joseph Smith's history, his history that he starts in 1838, when he is talking about this time period around the time Section 18 was received, we mentioned this a little bit earlier in the podcast. He writes something that we need to square with this together, too. In 1829, we now became anxious to have that promise realized to us that provided we continued faithful, we should also have the Melchizedek priesthood, which holds the authority of the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We had for some time made this matter a subject of humble prayer. And at length we got together in the chamber of Mr. Whitmer's house in order more particularly to seek the Lord what we now so earnestly desired. And here, to our unspeakable satisfaction, did we realize the truth of the Savior's promise. Ask and ye shall receive. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you. For we had not long been engaged in solemn and fervent prayer when the word of the Lord came to us in the chamber commanding us that I should ordain Oliver Cowdery to be an elder in the Church of Jesus Christ, and that he also should ordain me to that same office. So some people have pointed to this passage which is alluded to in section 128. Also in verse 21, the exact next verse, he says, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer in Fayette, Seneca County. Let's put these data points together. We know that Peter, James and John appeared on the Susquehanna river somewhere between Colesville and Harmony. We know that Joseph Smith had said that God spoke to them in the chamber of Father Whitmer and told them to ordain each other to the priesthood. Can we take those clues and put together some models that give us a time when this all happened?

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah. So we need to identify in the history, when were Joseph and Oliver traveling between Harmony, Pennsylvania and Colesville, New York along the Susquehanna River? Like when? When are the possible times that we can try to pin this down? Yeah, there seems to be, from the historical record, only two candidates, aren't there?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah, there's two candidates and they're favored by good people. I think you and I have a favorite theory, so I'll address the first one.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Okay.

[Casey Griffiths]

Richard Bushman is a well known historian. He wrote Joseph Smith rough stone rolling. And there's one point where I remember reading an interview with him where somebody asked, do you ever break with your church on historical events? And he was like, yeah, yeah, here's one example, and this was the example he cited. Richard Bushman believes that Peter, James and John appeared after the church was organized. The reason why he believes this is we don't have any information about the circumstances that they appeared under, except for this account, which comes from a guy named Addison Everett. Addison Everett was a member of the church. He said this to Oliver Huntington actually sent one of my teaching assistants to find this paper in the library at byu. And Addison Everett gives this description. Now, Addison Everett basically says that he heard Joseph and Hyrum talking to each other. So this is a secondhand account. In describing it, he talks about Joseph and Oliver being pursued. So he says this. He says they got into the woods, and in going a few rods from the house, it was night, and they traveled through brush and water and mud, fell over logs, et cetera, until Oliver was exhausted. Then Joseph helped him along through the mud and water, almost carrying him. They traveled all night, and just at the break of day, Oliver gave out entirely and exclaimed, oh, Lord, brother Joseph, how long have we got to endure this thing? They sat down on a log to rest, and Joseph said that at that very time, Peter, James and John came to them and ordained them to the apostleship.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Wait, wait. So they were up in Colesville? This is during the Colesville persecutions of what, July 1830?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. So this would be the summer after the church was organized. In reconciling Addison Everett's statement, Richard Bushman and others would say, well, when was a time when they were near the Susquehanna? Because that matches up with section 128, and they were being pursued and they would have had to flee through the woods. That's summer 1830, which for us is confusing because that's after the church was organized.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Would they not need the keys of the apostleship and the keys of the kingdom to organize the church?

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah, that's why this is sort of problematic to me. But Bushman is arguing that voice of God in the chamber of Father Whitmer that we referenced earlier was the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood, which in some ways is kind of neat. He's saying that the Lord himself restored the Melchizedek priesthood in other ways. It doesn't work. There's no laying on of hands. There's just a direction for them to ordain each other. And then Peter, James and John have to show up almost a year afterwards in the summer of 1830 and ordain them apostles. So Bushman is arguing that God restored the Melchizedek priesthood himself in the chamber of Father Whitmer, and that a year later, after the church was organized, Peter, James, and John ordained them apostles while this incident that Addison Everett is describing happened. And again, nobody here is saying it didn't happen. Like, Bushman is a faithful member of the church. But this is one place where he says, yeah, I Break with church orthodoxy on the timing of when Peter, James and John appeared and what Peter, James and John restored.

[Oliver Cowdery]

You and I tend to hold a different opinion.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah. So walk him through option two, which I think is the more plausible of the 2.

[Oliver Cowdery]

So option 2. This is the other time that Joseph and Oliver were between Colesville and Harmony by the Susquehanna River. And It's May of 1829. It's the same month that John the Baptist came. So John the Baptist comes on the 15th of May, and then shortly after that, Samuel Smith, Joseph's brother, comes to visit and they baptize him. At one point there, Joseph and Oliver run out of supplies for the Book of Mormon translations. And so they head up to Colesville to go talk with brother Joseph Knight Senior and ask for more provisions. And Joseph Knight Sr. Himself has an account of this. He says, quote, joseph and Oliver came up to see me if I could help him to some provisions. They having no way to buy any. But I was gone to Catskill, another city nearby. When I came home, my folks told me what Joseph wanted. But I went again and bought a barrel of mackerel and some lined paper for writing. And when I came home, I bought some nine or ten bushels of grain and five or six bushels of taters and a pound of tea. And I went down to see them, and they were in want. Joseph and Oliver were gone to see if they could find a place to work for provisions, but they found none. They returned home and found me with the provisions, and they were glad for they were out. Their family consisted of four. This is important. Joseph and wife Oliver and Joseph's brother Samuel. Then they went to work and had provisions enough until the translation was done. Close quote. What seems like a little innocuous journal entry about Joseph Knight helping them with the translation, with materials turns out to be really crucial. We know that Samuel Smith came down to visit shortly after John the Baptist came, and he was still there when Joseph and Oliver went up to see Joseph Knight and come back down. Because when Joseph Knight comes back down and brings provisions, who's there there? Joseph, his wife, Oliver. And Samuel Smith is still there. Samuel goes home about the end of May, 1829. So that matters. That matters deeply. Now we have another time after John the Baptist has come, before section 18 is given, just right before section 18 is given, when Joseph and Oliver were in the right place along the Susquehanna between Harmony and Colesville. And you. And I think that fits better with the timeline of all of the events put together that now section 18, the Lord is talking more freely about apostles right after Peter, James and John had just come. And that now when they go and pray in the chamber of Father Whitmer in Fayette, and they ask, now what do we do? What about Melchizedek priesthood? Which again, is a cool thought. Peter, James and John had already come and they're saying, what about Melchizedek priest? What about Holy Ghost? What about ordaining elders? And the Lord says, yes, I authorize you to do that, but wait until the church is organized and you can, you know, do an official church and do it on that day. That seems to fit better. So by April 6, 1830, with the keys of the apostleship, they're able to officially do this act and organize the church and everything just seems to fit better. And that's a nice, beautiful candidate where we know Joseph and Oliver were in the right place at the right time. I just think it's a better fit of all the information.

[Casey Griffiths]

So we've got a date, May 15, when John the Baptist appears. Yes, Samuel's here. The other date that we've got to fix in our minds is they leave Harmony at the end of May to go to Fayette. So if Joseph Smith is saying Peter, James and John appeared on the banks of the Susquehanna after the end of May, they're nowhere near the banks of the Susquehanna. That's why a lot of historians and some good folks like Larry Porter have said that's the two week window where Peter, James and John would have appeared. And then my theory is, and I might be wrong here, that incident in the chamber of Father Whitmer is them not asking about the Melchizedek priesthood per se. The wording there is confusing. But if they can ordain each other to the Melchizedek priesthood, because in the early incident when John the Baptist appears, the sequence they give us is, he gave us the authority, then he directed us to baptize each other. Then he directed us to ordain each other. I think what the Chamber of Father Whitmer incident is referring to is Peter, James and John give them the authority, but don't direct them to ordain each other. And they're seeking the Lord to know if they can do that. And I like that. I mean, I like them both. I don't think we should ignore the chamber of Father Whitmer because it gives the Lord a role in the restoration of the priesthood as well, which in my mind is really, really great. Like he deserves to have a role. I'm glad to know that in Joseph Smith's mind, that was a key moment in the restoration of the priesthood also.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Yeah. And another little layer of complexity here is that we don't learn about the chamber of Father whitmer until Joseph's 1838 history. And now he's using the word Melchizedek, which is actually an anachronistic word. Back in 1830, they weren't using the word Melchizedek yet. Yeah, that doesn't really come into the vocabulary until like 1835, where they really start using that a lot. Like you'll see like in section 84, which is a very priesthood heavy revelation. That's 1832. And they're just calling these lower priesthood and higher priesthood. We're not really settled on Aaronic and Melchizedek by name yet. That also adds a layer of difficulty in trying to, like, figure out what's going on, because in 1838, he says, we were praying about, you know, receiving the Melchizedek priesthood. And it's like that wasn't actually the language of your prayer because you didn't talk like that. Yet now you do in 1838 when you're writing this history. And so it does just add some historical difficulty. We're trying to get at what was actually going on at this time. That the chamber of Father Whitmer is a super intriguing and very, I guess, under discussed moment in the sequence of the restoration of Melchizedek priesthood.

[Casey Griffiths]

And I want to be clear here that even though this can be really confusing, I explain this to people when we're on the sites where all this happened and they're still kind of scratching their heads. Don't miss the forest for the trees here. Nobody involved was saying that Peter, James and John didn't appear. We're just arguing and everybody is faithful over the timing and what they restored. Joseph Smith said Peter, James and John. Oliver Cowdery said Peter, James and John. In fact, can I read a little quote from Oliver Cowdery? This was a letter he wrote to Phineas Young, who we just talked about a little bit earlier while he was outside the church. And Phineas is trying to convince Oliver to come back into the church. And Oliver is saying, I'll come back into the church, but I want the charges dropped against me that were used to excommunicate me. Oliver writes and notes, I'm not doing this to be sensitive. Here's his reason. This is a letter he writes in March 1846 to Phineas Young. Oliver writes, I have cherished a Hope and that one of my fondest, that I might leave such a character as those who might believe in my testimony after I should be called hence, might do so not only for the sake of truth, but might not blush for the private character of the man who bore that testimony. I have been sensitive on this subject, I admit, but I ought to be. So you would be under the circumstances, had you stood in the presence of John with our departed brother Joseph to receive the lesser priesthood and in the presence of Peter to receive the greater and look down through time and witness the effect these two must produce. So this is Oliver's out of the church. He has no reason to continue to defend the faith, but he's saying, hey, I need these charges dropped. The reason why I'm sensitive is I don't want anybody to doubt that I stood in the presence of John the Baptist and Peter the Apostle and that I received authority from both of them. So everybody is on the same page here and saying, yes, Peter, James and John played a role in priesthood restoration. We just don't quite have pinned down the when and the where of what they appeared or what they restored, to be honest. But if you have that model in mind that priesthood restoration is a multifaceted event, that it's several things that happened then, this is pretty easy to kind of deal with.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Process, not event. Peter, James and John played a key role. The Chamber. Father Whitmer played another key role. The Morley Farm in 1831 plays another key role. The Kirtland Temple in 1836 plays another key role. Yeah, when you, when you kind of string them all together, that does help to massage out some of these, these difficult.

[Casey Griffiths]

Foreign.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Let's land the plane here with section 18. What are the consequences? What's the aftermath of section 18? I think we can summarize it pretty simply like this, that the doctrine and Covenants 18 played a vital role in shaping the latter day church in at least three ways. Number one, by guiding Oliver Cowdery initially here to distill into one document the foundational doctrine, ordinances, structure and practices of the Church from the Book of Mormon. And that document, known as the Articles of the Church of Christ, appears to be what Joseph will take and use as the basis for creating what becomes Section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which is the official, official governing document of the Church. And so this is kind of the pre, the predecessor document that leads to section 20 that grows out of section 18.

[Casey Griffiths]

Yeah, and we can't overstate the importance of section 20. It just impacts everything that we do in the church today. And this is kind of the start of preparing section 20. So second consequence, section 18, maybe better than anything, captures the core of what the church is all about, that is inviting all mankind everywhere to repent, come unto Christ through baptism, and take upon themselves his name so that they can be saved in the kingdom of His Father, and that this is what Christ died to make possible. So later on Joseph Smith is going to say, that's what we believe. The fundamental principles of our religion are that Jesus died, was buried, and rose again the third day. Everything else is an appendage. Section 18 does a beautiful job capturing the worth of souls as illustrated by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Beautiful. And Then finally, the third thing that Section 18 does is it directly leads to the calling of the twelve apostles in the latter days to lead out in this core work of inviting all to come into Christ. And that's at the heart of the Lord's Church.

[Casey Griffiths]

Well, this has been wonderful and again, what we thought was going to be sort of a short discussion when you start to dig into this, there's so much to talk about and some complex historical problems that I hope we navigated. Okay. But boy, good stuff.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Awesome. Well, thank you, Casey. We'll see you next week when we get to do another entire hour plus on one second that Section 19 of.

[Casey Griffiths]

The Doctrine and Covenants, an important section, one of the most beautiful sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. So I'll look forward to that.

[Oliver Cowdery]

Okay, we'll see you then.

[Scott Woodward]

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Church History Matters. Our new episodes drop every Tuesday, so please join us next week as we continue to dig into the context, content, controversies and consequences of the revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants. If you're enjoying or gaining value from Church History Matters, we would love it if you could pay it forward by telling your friends about it or by taking a moment to subscribe, rate, review and comment on the podcast that makes us easier to find. Today's episode was produced by Scott Woodward and edited by Daniel Sorensen with show notes and transcript by Gabe Davis. Church History Matters is a podcast of Scripture Central, a non profit which exists to help build enduring faith in Jesus Christ by making Latter Day Saints, scripture and church history accessible, comprehensible and defensible to people everywhere. For more resources to enhance your Gospel study, go to scripturecentral.org where everything is available for free because of the generous donations of people like you. Let me say that again, all of our content is free because people like you donate to make it possible. So if you're in a position where you're both willing and able to make a one time or ongoing donation, be assured that your contribution will help us here at Scripture Central to produce and disseminate more quality content to combat false and faith eroding material out there in the digital marketplace of ideas. I try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast. Please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone and do not necessarily reflect the view views of Scripture Central or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us.