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Church History Matters
109 Emma Smith: Elect & Complicated - Come Follow Me - E12 - March 17-23
01:33:04
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- [00:00]
Casey
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Scott
Come follow Me edition, where we are systematically diving into every section of the Doctrine and Covenants throughout the year 2025. We have a lot to talk about today, so let's get into it. Hello, Casey.
- [00:22]
Casey
Hello, Scott.
- [00:24]
Scott
We're back. Doctrine and covenants 23 through 26 today. And wow, we missed you last week. You were on what, companionship exchanges over on the follow him podcast.
- [00:37]
Casey
Yes, yes. Spending time with our friends Hank and John. It's always a joy to go over there. And they have snacks. Can I say, like, we need to get snacks.
- [00:45]
Scott
That's the missing piece, I think, to take it to the next level.
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Casey
Yeah, we'll see if it's in the budget or anything like that. But that is one thing that they have going for them that we don't have going for us right now.
- [00:56]
Scott
But do they have swag?
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Casey
Oh, yeah, we do have. Yeah, we've got stickers.
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Scott
We got some stickers.
- [01:05]
Casey
They have sweaters, I think, at this point. So. All right, we're not. We're not being covetous. We're just expressing admiration.
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Scott
We love Hank Smith and John, by the way. They have been very kind and generous to us on this podcast. They are dear friends. If you've got time to listen to both, we highly recommend it. They will typically interview an expert on a particular block. And so Casey happened to be that last week for them.
- [01:31]
Casey
Good to be back. And I saw that you had my dear friend Anthony Sweat with you, who is a wonderful guy.
- [01:37]
Scott
We did. He was so awesome. He did a great job. It was awesome to have him on, but it's good to have you back, Casey.
- [01:43]
Casey
Yeah. What we're doing today is a really great block as well. This is kind of the immediate post organization sections where I think they thought that the top of the mountain was gonna be organizing the church, and they didn't real that that was the beginning of their troubles, not the end of their troubles. And these sections deal with some of Joseph Smith's closest family and friends. In fact, the person closest to him, his wife Emma Smith, is highlighted in Section 25, which we want to spend plenty of time on as we talk about this today. So should we just get into it?
- [02:25]
Scott
So Doctrine and covenants, section 23 through 26. Let's start with 23. Cayce, drop us into context.
- [02:32]
Casey
So section 23 was originally five really short sections in the Book of Commandments. So the Book of Commandments is the 1833 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. That's the very first attempt they have to publish it and these show up in here as chapters 17 to 21 in the 1833 Book of Commandments. But when the Doctrine and Covenants was published in 1835, two years later, they just decided to combine all these together and created the section that we're familiar with today. And it's been that way ever since. But it's given to five people who are very close to Joseph Smith. That's Oliver Cowdery, who's the second elder of the church. There's Hyrum Smith, Joseph's older brother. There's Samuel Smith, Joseph's brother, Joseph Smith's father, who's already had Section 4 received on his behalf. And Joseph Knight, who we talked a little bit about earlier when we discussed doctrine and Covenants 12, which was given to Joseph Knight. A kind of short section that has some very, you know, one to two verse items of counsel to each of these good men and some interesting kind of hints at what the future is for each of them.
- [03:38]
Scott
Yeah, so it makes sense to consolidate these. Right. Because like you said, it's one or two verses each. They were rapid fire. I think they were given, like back to back to back, weren't they? Like on the same setting? We think.
- [03:48]
Casey
We're not sure, but we think all in the same. Maybe on the same occasion where all these are happening, just. And so it made sense to maybe combine them.
- [03:57]
Scott
Okay, awesome. Let's do a quick flyby, actually. So verses one to two are to Oliver Cowdery, and then verse three is to Hyrum. So he gets one verse. Verse four is to Samuel Smith, he gets a verse. And then we go to verse five, that's to Joseph Smith senior. He gets a verse. And then verse six and seven to cap it off goes to Joseph Knight senior. So just shorties, but goodies. Let's dive into verses one and two to Oliver Cowdery. And there is a little warning here, Casey, that seems to play out in a really interesting way in Oliver's future. Here's what the Lord says in verse one. Behold, I speak unto you, Oliver, a few words. Behold, thou art blessed and art under no condemnation, but beware of pride, lest thou shouldst enter into temptation. Now that's interesting, right? We know something about his future. In fact, only a few months after this revelation is given, Oliver is going to enter into contention with Joseph Smith over some of the wording in section 20, verse 37. We covered that in our last episode. Then he's going to be embroiled again in another dispute over who has the Right to receive revelation in the church. That would be Section 28 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which we'll cover next week. Oliver is trying to figure out to what degree he can push back on Joseph Smith's revelations and thoughts. And to be able to do it in a way that's not prideful is difficult for him, it seems early on. But he does humble himself in both occasions that I just mentioned, he's back in stride. However, we also know that Oliver is going to be excommunicated in 1838. Now, Wilford Woodruff related a really interesting conversation between Joseph and Oliver. In fact, this is a from a talk that Wilford Woodruff gave where he said this. He states a general principle and then he tells the specifics about Oliver. He says, quote, if the president of the church or either of his counselors or any of the apostles or any other man feels in his heart that God cannot do without him and that he is especially important in order to carry on the work of the Lord, he stands on slippery ground. I heard Wilford Woodruff says, Joseph Smith say that Oliver Cowdery, who was the second apostle in this church, said to him, if I leave this church, it will fall. Oliver says, says Joseph, Oliver, you try it. Oliver tried it and he fell and the church did not. Interesting foreshadowing here. Verse 1. Beware of pride, Oliver.
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Casey
And I mean the way Wilford Woodruff is describing this is how it actually played out. We've got a nice little article over on Scripture central that goes through the details of Oliver Cowdery's excommunication. It might not even be correct to say he was excommunicated because he resigns from the church, just like Wilford Woodruff describes. He leaves the church before he can be excommunicated and doesn't attend his excommunication hearing either. Just writes a letter basically saying the church is infringing on my rights and they don't have any right to do that. So I resigned my membership in the church and he leaves. Now, want to be clear here? Oliver does come back and dies in full fellowship in the church, but he doesn't achieve the same place in the church hierarchy that he held before. I mean, he was practically the co founder of the church and never quite reaches those heights again after he comes back.
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Scott
Yeah, shortly after he returns, he gets sick and dies suddenly in Richmond, Missouri, doesn't he?
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Casey
Yeah, I think he's rebaptized in 1848. And then he goes to Richmond and he stays with his in Laws, the Whitmer family. But he dies while he's. But he does, according to several people, including David Whitmer, who has no reason to say why he would do this, affirm his testimony of the Book of Mormon as a witness of the Book of Mormon.
- [07:28]
Scott
I guess in some ways you could say at the end of his life, Oliver did humble himself. I can't imagine how difficult that would have been for him to make that journey back to the church, knowing that he was in such high station before he left the church or was excommunicated. However, we want to say that to come back, that would require a great deal of humility. Swallowing his pride, saying that, I want to be associated with this church. I left the church, and it obviously did not fail. I don't want to have any great station in the church. I just want to have a place in the church that would again require a greater deal of humility. So we're proud of his return, but we're sad as we think about what might have been had he stayed in the church and continued to lend his influence to its building and growth during those crucial years he was gone from 1838 to 1848.
- [08:14]
Casey
And, I mean, if you read his letter in his excommunication hearing, there was a lot of complicated stuff going on there. And again, I'll refer to the article, but it was clear that Oliver was a little prideful in the way that he approached this. I think a little humility might have caused him to go to the hearing. And I think that if he had attended the hearing, there was a decent chance that he wouldn't have been excommunicated from the church. But instead, he chose to write a letter and resign. So all of this is speculation on my part. I want to be totally clear, but I still see him as a little sad because he could have stayed with the church and been highly esteemed.
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Scott
I don't know.
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Casey
Joseph Fielding Smith thinks he would have died in Carthage jail if he had stayed in the church. So another speculation. Right. But there's no doubt his significance, but that also this was a stumbling block for him.
- [08:59]
Scott
Yeah.
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Casey
So verse 3, verses 3 and 4 are to Hyrum and Samuel, Joseph Smith's brothers. And I want to point out a couple of things. In verse three, the Lord tells Hyrum, thou also art under no condemnation. Thy heart is opened and thy tongue loosed, and thy calling is exhortation to strengthen the church continually. Therefore, thy duty is unto the church forever. And this because of thy family. And so you'll recall Section 11 of the Doctrine and Covenants was earlier given to Hyrum Smith. And in that one, the Lord promised him that his tongue would be loosed. Like we always quote that, because the Lord told him, first seek to obtain my word, then shall your tongue be loosed. It's this scripture we share with missionaries who are getting ready to go all the time. This is just the official your tongue will be loosed. The Lord telling Hyrum, it's time now. The hour of your mission has come, so go and do.
- [09:49]
Scott
That's pretty cool, right? It's like a year later, he's like, now you're ready, go. Your tongue is loosed.
- [09:53]
Casey
And I'll point out, too, where he says, thy duty is unto the church forever. And this because of thy family. I've known some people that were descendants of Hyrum Smith. There's been a prominent line of leaders. Joseph F. Smith, who's the son of Hyrum. A lot of the patriarchs of the church in office that we don't have anymore were descendants of Hyrum. In fact, they were all Smith descendants. And even the late M. Russell Ballard, who just recently passed away. Some people have spoken about that promise. And we should point out that putting these verses right next to Oliver Cowdery is significant because Hyrum is eventually going to succeed Oliver as the second elder of the church. He holds the office of patriarch to the church, and he fell a martyr with Joseph Smith in Carthage jail. So section 124 says the same powers which were placed upon Oliver Cowdery are now placed upon you. So he does effectively take Oliver Cowdery's place as the second elder or the second witness of the restoration, which is interesting.
- [10:48]
Scott
Yeah. And again, it's kind of a sobering reminder that none of us is indispensable in the work of God. God wants us to help out. He can totally use all of us, but none of us is indispensable. And this is a sobering example in our church's history where when Oliver fell out, Hyrum filled that spot and did a great job. And his descendants have been remarkable in this church. We actually do know that Oliver does not have any descendants. Um. Yeah, not just in the church, but at all. He had a daughter, one daughter, Maria, who lived to adulthood. But there. There are no descendants of Oliver Cowdery today.
- [11:26]
Casey
Oliver died in full fellowship. So we're not saying the Lord condemned him or anything like that, but that's just an interesting side by side. They're right Next to each other, verse four is to Samuel Smith. This is Joseph's little brother. The Lord tells him he's under no condemnation. Thy calling is to exhortation to strengthen the church. Thou art not as yet called to preach before the world. Now, it is interesting that the Lord doesn't give him a commission to teach, but Samuel is traditionally honored as the first missionary in the history of the church. Only a couple days after this revelation is given, Samuel embarks with a knapsack full of copies of the Book of Mormon. And he's really discouraged. In fact, we tell this story to missionaries a lot because there's their forerunner. You want to hear about the first one. Samuel only manages to give away a few copies, but he does give one to John P. Green, who's a Methodist minister. He agreed to take the book on his next preaching tour and see if anybody else was interested. John P. Green also was married to a woman named Rhoda Green. So Samuel goes back and visits with the Green family. Samuel offers Rhoda the Book, and according to him, she burst into tears and asked if he would pray for her. So Samuel did. He promised her that the Spirit of God would give her a testimony of the things that she'd read. And within a year, both Rhoda and her husband get baptized. So he's not completely without success. In fact, this is where it gets really interesting. So Rhoda introduces Samuel to her brother, who's named Phineas. And Phineas later recalls a meeting with Samuel, pointing out his name on a page that lists the eight witnesses. This is where Phineas tells the story. He says he pointed at the eight witnesses in the back of the book. He said in response to this inquiry. Samuel responded, yes, I know the book to be a revelation from God, translated by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, and that my Brother, Joseph Smith Jr. Is a prophet, seer, and revelator. And so Phineas wrote his brother converts, and then they share the book with their brother, whose name is Brigham. And you might have guessed the last name of Rhoda, Phineas, and Brigham. Or at least Rhoda's maiden name was Young. Yeah. So kind of a cool story that Samuel may have thought he was a failure as a missionary, but he does manage to convert the second president of the church and Phineas Young, who's a leader in the 70. And I think most of the Young family gets baptized and joins the church. So keep planting those seeds out there. You never know.
- [13:42]
Scott
It's always struck me as a little bit funny. Every Time I read the end of verse four, I smile. It says, thou art not as yet called to preach before the world. So a couple days later, with a knapsack full of copies of the Book of Mormon, he's out preaching. He's out trying to share. The Lord didn't say when he would be called. He just said, not yet. And so he says, okay, that must mean not today. He's just zealous. He's just like, I want to get out there. I'm chomping at the bit. And so does the Lord reward his eagerness to share the gospel? He does. Yeah. He said this leads to Brigham Young, Phineas Young, Rhoda Young coming into the church. Super cool.
- [14:19]
Casey
And we don't hear a lot about Samuel. We did do a great interview a couple weeks ago with Kyle Walker, who's an expert on the Smith family. He mentioned that a lot of people said that Samuel wasn't as well spoken as some of his brothers. That I think the phrase they used was slow speech. But, boy, do I love him. Because, you know, it's not necessarily the most articulate person. It's the person who is most sincere that sometimes really, it becomes an amazing missionary. In fact, Brigham Young tells a story about his own conversion where he talks about people that were really articulate, didn't really appeal to him. But when he heard a humble missionary bear testimony. And by the way, it wasn't Samuel, it was Eleazar Miller that. That set his heart on fire and that caused him to come to know that the gospel was true. But the copy of the Book of Mormon that Brigham Young was using there came through Samuel Smith. So a major blessing for him.
- [15:10]
Scott
And Brigham will take, like, two years to investigate the church. Right. He's going to read that copy thoroughly. He's going to be very careful, and how he comes into the church. So it's not like, boom, Samuel shared the book. Boom. Brigham Young got baptized.
- [15:23]
Casey
Yeah.
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Scott
Sometimes these things take a long time. Brigham comes into the church because of that. Eleazar Miller. He calls him a man without eloquence. Right. Tag team, Samuel and Eleazar Miller.
- [15:33]
Casey
Yep. Both of them bring him into the gospel, and there's a lot of stuff there. Boy, I'd love to talk about Brigham Young. We might have to do a series on him after we're done, but he's also taking care of a sick wife and has a bunch of little kids. And there were a lot of reasons why he took his time. And it is okay for an investigator, a person searching out the Gospel to take a little time and make sure that it's correct.
- [15:55]
Scott
Okay, let's go to verse five. Verse five is again to Joseph Smith Sr. The Lord simply says he's not under condemnation. He is called to exhort and strengthen the church and this is thy duty from henceforth and forever. Amen. So not called to go out preaching to non members, although he'll go on a couple missions. But his main duty is to strengthen the church, which he will do to his dying day. Dies in 1840, I believe, and is remarkable he'll become a patriarch in the church and he will do a lot of exhortation and strengthening through his patriarchal blessings.
- [16:30]
Casey
And then the next verse deals with Joseph Knight, who was introduced to us in section 12. And the Lord says some pretty direct things here too, including verse seven. It is your duty to unite with the true church and give your language to exhortation continually. Joseph Knight wasn't baptized when this revelation.
- [16:48]
Scott
Was given, which is funny, right? Because he's been such a friend of the Smiths. He was there helping Joseph. When Joseph needed supplies for the translation of the Book of Mormon, he helped. He gave Joseph his wagon so he could go date Emma before they married. Like he's always been a friend, but he just hasn't joined the church yet. For some reason.
- [17:06]
Casey
He gave Joseph the wagon that Joseph took to the hill Cumorah with Emma to pick up the plates. Joseph Knight hadn't been baptized at this time, but he was baptized on June 27, 1830, along with several other members of his family. And Father Knight wrote his own history. In the history he wrote, soon after the church began to grow, the people began to be angry and persecute. Called them fools and said they were deceived. But Father Knight stays true to his testimony and the covenants he made at his baptism until the end of his life. We've mentioned this before, but the Knights are still a wonderful family that's in the church and has done marvelous things.
- [17:45]
Scott
I feel like I meet descendants of Joseph Knight like all the time. Just a couple weeks ago someone told me I'm a descendant of Newell Knight, which is part of this family. And their descendants continue to be with us today, which is awesome.
- [18:09]
Casey
Anything really controversial in these verses for you, Scott?
- [18:12]
Scott
You could have some fun discussions with this. This section as you talk about Samuel, talk about Eliezer Miller, talk about what makes a good missionary. Oftentimes it's not what you think. It's attributes more than it is skills, right? It's humility and Sincerity more than it is, slick tongue and articulate. And you talk about hesitance to commit. With Joseph Knight, the Lord tells him right here in April of 1830 to get baptized, join the church, which he does, but not until June. Like, like he continues to drag his feet, but once he, once he's in, he's in, as we said. By the way, he was also insecure about praying vocally. Praying in public. He was insecure about that. So is this Newell. We'll talk about him in a minute. So the Lord right here in verse six says you got to pray vocally for the world as well as in secret. It's not controversial, but just to watch what the Lord can do with like section one calls him weak and simple, but humble people who are willing to turn themselves over to God and thrust in their sickle. It's just awesome to see what he can do. So not really a controversy, but some paradigm shifts about what makes a successful missionary, what makes a successful leader in the church. Sometimes it's not what we think.
- [19:17]
Casey
Yeah, it's not a one size fits all right. But outside of that, I can't think of any controversies. I think some people might put more pressure on Oliver Cowdery because of this verse than is warranted. Because it really is eight years after this that he's excommunicated from the church. He leaves the church, however you want to define it. What about consequences for this section?
- [19:37]
Scott
Consequences? I mean we've talked about each individual there. Great things grow out of this section. We've got Samuel off into missionary work. Hyrum, Joseph Smith, senior Joseph Knight. They do take these particular pieces of counsel, they do apply them and we see marvelous results come from that. So small, short, little power packed verses which when applied bore good fruits as we've mentioned with each of them. So I don't know what else would you add to that?
- [20:02]
Casey
I would just add Samuel's role as the first missionary has been rightly and correctly honored. If you go to the mtc, there's a statue of Samuel there because of his role as the first missionary. I know a guy in Provo, Reid Moon, who has a copy of the Book of Mormon that belonged to Samuel. And I don't know if Samuel did this or not, but on the page where the eight witnesses are, his name is underlined and there's stars right off to the side. And I don't know if Samuel did that or a later owner did it because it belonged to Samuel Smith. But. But just nice and sweet to see these family Members that are honored, including the one that sort of kicks off missionary work in the restoration, One of our grand, grand traditions.
- [20:40]
Scott
Let's transition over to section 24. Drop us into the backstory of this one. This one's rich and interesting.
- [20:46]
Casey
This has an intense backstory, and it's partially the Backstory for Section 25. So Section 24 comes when there is some really intense persecution, and they have faced persecution before. But I think to Joseph Smith, there was this feeling of, oh, if I can just get the book translated and get the church organized, maybe I'll get a break. Unfortunately, that was not to be. We've mentioned in earlier sections that the church was primarily organized around three locations and three families during this time. The Smith family in Palmyra, the Whitmer family in Fayette, and the Knight family in Colesville. And generally, there'd been persecution in Palmyra and a little bit in Fayette and Colesville. Maybe not as much. However, this is when it really starts to heat up in that Colesville Harmony area, which is where Emma Smith is from. In the latter part Of June of 1830, meetings were held in Colesville, and a number of people, including Emma Smith, are baptized into the church. And opponents of the church in the area start to sort of turn the heat up. They tear down a small dam that was constructed in a local stream to perform the baptisms. Before Joseph was able to confirm all of these new members, he was arrested by a constable. This is the way Joseph Smith writes in his own history. Was arrested by him on a warrant on a charge of being a disorderly person, of setting the country in an uproar by preaching the Book of Mormon. Close quote.
- [22:21]
Scott
Is that illegal, Cayce?
- [22:23]
Casey
I'm not aware of any statute at the time, but it seems like people didn't like the Book of Mormon. And apparently some of these were even related to Emma Smith, like her uncle is sometimes singled out in this. But, okay, so he gets arrested before he can confirm these people, members of the church. And then this is where the story gets even crazier. Okay, so this is directly from Joseph Smith's history. He said, the constable informed me soon after I had been arrested that the plan of those who had got out the warrant was to get me into the hands of the mob who were now lying in ambush for me, but that he was determined to save me from them, as he found me to be a different sort of person from what I had been represented to him. So they're traveling on their way to the Knight home, the place where Joseph Knight and his family lives. And the wagon is surrounded by a mob. The mob hesitates when they see the constable with Joseph. And the constable is able to drive the wagon away from the mob, but they're traveling so fast that one of the wheels falls off the wagon. And Joseph and the constable have to jump off the wagon and put the wheel back on while the mob is coming up on them. And then that night, they make it to South Bainbridge, where they stay for the night. But according to Joseph, the constable, this is what he says, slept during the night with his feet against the door and a loaded musket by his side whilst I occupied a bed which was in the room, having declared that if he were interrupted unlawfully, he would fight for me and defend me as far as in his power. So this gospel sounds like a good fella. He takes pity on Joseph, but he does fulfill his duty to take Joseph to trial. So while all this is happening, Joseph Knight is gathering people to speak on behalf of Joseph's character at the trial. So they get Josiah stole. This is the guy that employed Joseph Smith to find the silver mine. He brings in Stull's daughters. He brings in several citizens from Colesville in the trial. Joseph later notes that Josiah Stahl's daughters, for example, quote, bore such testimony in my favor as left the enemies without a pretext for their account. And Joseph is acquitted, and he's about to be freed when suddenly he's served with a different warrant from a different constable from Broome County. So Joseph is just basically acquitted in his first trial when he gets arrested and taken to a second trial by a second constable. And this constable isn't as favorable as the first one is.
- [24:47]
Scott
Not so friendly.
- [24:48]
Casey
Yeah, not so friendly. So this is the way Joseph describes it. He says, the second constable took me to a tavern and gathered in a number of men who used every means to abuse, ridicule, and insult me. They spit upon me. They pointed their fingers at me, saying, prophesy, prophesy. And thus they did imitate those who crucified the savior of mankind, not knowing what they did. So the constable refuses to let Joseph spend the night in a home and refuses him to give anything more than just a few crusts of bread or water to eat. And when it came time to sleep, Scott like, imagine this. The constable, according to Joseph, Joseph said, the constable, quote, made me lie next to the wall. Then he laid himself down by me and put his arm around me. And upon moving in the least, he would clench me fast, fearing that I intended to escape. From him. And in this disagreeable manner, did we pass the night?
- [25:40]
Scott
What a great statement. In this disagreeable manner, did we pass the night?
- [25:45]
Casey
Yeah. I would feel weird about this guy, you know, snuggling with me to make sure that I wasn't going to escape or anything like that. Like that feels like. Definitely. I won't call it police brutality, but they're definitely overstepping their boundaries here, right?
- [26:01]
Scott
Yeah, Seriously.
- [26:02]
Casey
So he gets taken to another trial in Broome county, and this time several of Joseph's friends again appear to testify on his behalf, including Newell Knight, who Joseph had recently cast a devil out of through the use of the priesthood. And Joseph later wrote that those who testified on his behalf spoke like men inspired of God, whilst those who were arrayed against me trembled under the sound of their voices, quailed before them like criminals before a bar of justice. And Joseph again is acquitted. And afterward, the constable who abused him the whole night before actually apologizes and asks for his forgiveness. So I guess constable number two isn't as nice as constable number one, but he's not a bad guy. However, they're still not done. In company of Oliver Cowdery, Joseph returns to Colesville to perform the confirmations. He still hasn't been able to confirm the people that were baptized during this time, but rumors began to circulate that another mob was gathering to capture Joseph and this time Oliver Cowdery, who's with him. So Joseph and Oliver take off just in time to escape the mob. They later write, our enemies pursued us, and it was oftentimes as much as we could do to elude them. However, we managed to get home after having traveled all night except a short time, and he later records, during which we were forced to rest ourselves under a large tree by the wayside, sleeping and watching alternately. And thus were we persecuted on account of our religious faith in a country the constitution of which guarantees every man the indefeasible right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and by men, too, who were professors. Professors of religion, he's specifying here. So a few days after all of this hubbub, Joseph Smith notes that they received the revelation that is now section 24 of the doctrine and Covenants. So that's the context. Thank you for indulging me. It affects Section 25, too. There's a lot going on, and it feels like they felt like they had made it to the top of the mountain. But nope, they still had many persecutions to endure. In fact, this is the beginning. Have Some pretty serious persecutions that Joseph Smith endures the rest of his life.
- [28:07]
Scott
Wow. Great job, Casey. That sets us up nicely for the content. Okay, so with that context in mind, look at verse one. See if this makes more sense. Now, based on what you just described. Quote, behold thou, Joseph, was called and chosen to write the Book of Mormon and to my ministry. And I lifted thee up out of thine afflictions and have counseled thee that thou has been delivered from all thine enemies. Think about what just happened. And thou has been delivered from the powers of Satan and from darkness. So no doubt relevant to what he had just experienced at the hand of mobs, those arrests, the constable, all of that. The Lord talks about them as enemies and being delivered from the powers of Satan and darkness. So, Joseph, I've been there for you. I helped you bring forth the Book of Mormon. I've counseled you, I've comforted you. Nevertheless, verse two says, thou art not excusable in thy transgressions, nevertheless go thy way and sin no more. I love that double nevertheless. There, Cayce. Two neverthelesses in one sentence. Nevertheless, you're not excusable in your transgressions, nevertheless go thy way and sin no more. This is the God we're dealing with. One who forgives sin but is also not happy anytime we commit it. Grateful for that double nature of God there. This justice, this mercy. It's beautiful. Double neverthelesses, verse 3. Joseph is told to magnify his office and to after that, go sow his fields and secure them, and then go speedily to Colesville again and to Fayette and Manchester, and they will support you. And I will bless them both spiritually and temporarily. This is an interesting moment of time where Joseph is now the leader of this new fledgling church. It's only a couple months old now. This is in what, July of 1830. What's Joseph supposed to do to get money? What's he supposed to do for a job, for a career? Like the Lord tells him here, go sow your fields. You're concerned about all these things, but then also go to Colesville and strengthen them, and then go to Fayette and go to Manchester, and they will support you financially. And I will bless them, both spiritually and temporally. And if they don't receive you, I will send upon them a cursing instead of a blessing. So Joseph is right here, kind of in the transitional stage of figuring out how he's going to provide for himself and family. And with that concern on his mind. I think these verses came as A sweet little balm there. The church will support you, Joseph, so do that. By the way, Casey, how would you feel if, just on the heels of all those Colesville persecutions, the Lord says, go sow your fields and then go back to Colesville and strengthen the church there? I don't know. I might start having a little bit of the shakes going back to Colesville. A little trepidatious to go back to that place, but he does and he does. Things work out fine. What'd you want to say about that?
- [31:01]
Casey
Well, I mean, there are some indications that Joseph felt like once I get the book translated and the church organized, I can have a normal life. And the Lord telling him to sow his fields. I mean, we need to remember that he still has to provide for his family. He's got a wife that he needs to provide for. And all these persecutions and everything happening may have caused some serious anxiety on Joseph's part as to whether or not he was going to be able to do that. So. Yeah, that does kind of scare you a little bit, doesn't it?
- [31:30]
Scott
Yes, totally great thought. Now let's go to verse five. The Lord says to Joseph, and thou shalt continue in calling upon God in my name and writing the things which shall be given thee by the comforter, and expounding all scriptures unto the church. This, Casey, this might be a little slant wise reference to a work that Joseph had just begun. Today we call it the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. Writing the things which shall be given thee by the comforter. Certainly that would include Revelations and other things, but something that comes on the heels of the Colesville persecutions is Moses. Chapter one. These don't always get put together, but they happen together. As Joseph and Oliver were being chased out of Colesville and finally made it huffing and puffing into Harmony, Pennsylvania. The Lord, Joseph says in his history, who well knew our infantile and delicate situation, vouchsafed for us a supply of strength and granted us line upon line here, a little there, a little of which the following was a precious morsel. Then in his history, he shows Moses, Chapter one. He records that which is effectively the beginning of the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. And so really interesting that that starts to grow out of this. Verse 6. The Lord says, it shall be given thee in the very moment what thou shalt speak and write. They shall hear it. Or I will send unto them a cursing instead of a blessing. There it is again. I will give it to you. Trust me, My spirit will be with you in what you need to say and what you need to write. Powerful, I don't think. We always think about Joseph as having personal insecurities relative to his prophetic office. But we're seeing right here at the beginning there must be underlying questions in his heart. First, how am I supposed to provide for my family? Second, like what now? Now that the church is organized, now what am I supposed to do? And the Lord is now giving him next steps. Next steps, Right. And you see also in verse seven, the Lord clarifying what he wants Joseph's mission to be here. For thou shalt devote all thy service in Zion, and in this thou shalt have strength. Everything full time Joseph in the church for Zion. And you will have strength in this. Be patient in afflictions, comma, for thou shalt have many. I don't know if he got the chills on with that line, but endure them. For, lo, I am with thee even unto the end of thy days. And then the Lord drops this and in temporal labors, thou shalt not have strength, for this is not thy calling. Attend to thy calling, which is what? Back in verse seven, devote all your service to Zion. Back in verse five and six, write the things, speak the things, preach the things that I shall give thee. That's your calling. But in temporal labors, business ventures, those kinds of things, we know how this is going to play out. He does not have strength. This is not his calling. Attend to thy calling and thou shalt have wherewith to magnify thine office and to expound all scriptures. Again, a likely reference to the Joseph Smith translation project and continue in laying on of the hands and confirming the churches. So there you go. Joseph is told to give his highest priority, his first responsibility to the church, and that church members would support him, strengthen him. He doesn't need to have anxiety about how to take care of his family in this regard. Right. Yeah, the Lord is giving him some comfort here.
- [34:39]
Casey
I don't know if I would be thrilled to receive a revelation that said, in temporal labors thou shalt not have strength. Yeah, that would be tough, right? Because it seems almost like the Lord is saying, you're not going to have a normal life. Just to put things in context, they are living, he and his wife Emma on a little cabin on a farm that's owned by Emma's dad. And Emma's dad later on says that he didn't want them to get married because he didn't trust Joseph Smith and his revelations and that he wasn't sure that Joseph could provide for his daughter. And it seems like the Lord is here saying, yeah, this is going to be a struggle for you. That's tough.
- [35:16]
Scott
Anything else you want to say about Joseph not having strength in temporal labors? He does try some business ventures. He does try his hand at some of those things. And how do those go for him? Do you want to give us a quick summary?
- [35:29]
Casey
Well, there is kind of this general feeling that Joseph Smith was bad at business because, you know, the failure of the Kirtland bank and later things that happened. But I just think that's unfair. I think his, his calling didn't lend himself to be successful at business. Brigham Young told this story once where he said, Joseph goes to New York and buys $20,000 worth of goods, comes into Kirtland and commences to trade. In comes one of the brethren. Brother Joseph, let me have a frock pattern for my wife. What if Joseph says, no, I cannot without the money, the consequences would be he is no profit. Says James. Pretty soon Thomas walks in. Brother Joseph, will you trust me for a pair of boots? No, I cannot let them go without the money. Well, says Thomas, brother Joseph is no prophet. I have found that out and I am glad of it. Then Brigham continues, after a while, in comes Bill and sister Susan says Bill, Brother Joseph, I want a shawl. I've not got the money, but I wish you to trust me for a week or a fortnight. Brother Joseph thinks the others have gone and apostatize and he don't know, but these goods will make the whole church do the same. So he lets Bill have the shawl. Bill walks off with it and meets a brother. Well, says he, what do you think of brother Joseph? He's a first rate man and I fully believe he's a prophet. He has trusted me with this shawl. So Brigham is just trying to capture the paradox of being a businessman and being a prophet where everybody expected Joseph to be incredibly generous. And that isn't always conducive to having a successful business. And by all accounts, Joseph Smith was not a hard nosed businessman. Like he was tender and he wanted people to stay in the church and he felt like if he was too harsh with them that they would get in trouble. So I don't know. I don't think Joseph Smith was a bad businessman, but I don't think his calling ever placed him in a position to be really successful on this score. And then later revelations like the law of consecration, I think always meant that he wasn't going to be the wealthiest guy on the block or in the church just wasn't in the cards for him. His calling was to address spiritual things and not to ever be successful temporally, I guess you'd say.
- [37:33]
Scott
And yet the revelations that come through Joseph will lay the seeds and the groundwork financially for the church to be where it's at today, which I think we both know. This, Casey, is a pretty healthy spot we're in right now as a church.
- [37:46]
Casey
Seems like we're doing okay, right?
- [37:48]
Scott
I think we're doing okay. And it's incredible that the financial success of this church finds its roots back in the revelations that came through Joseph Smith. We'll get to those, Section 42 and others as we. As we continue on this year. But I think you're right. I think it was never his lot to be incredibly wealthy. Yet through him, we as a church have done really, really well, and we'll continue to do that in order to. Back to verse 7. Devote all your service. Design to build Zion. Build Zion. In this you have strength. And his revelations will enable him and us to do just that. Okay, now let's go to verse 10 through 14. The second half of this revelation is now actually addressed to Oliver Cowdery. And so the Lord starts speaking through Joseph to Oliver, calls him his brother Oliver, your Brother Oliver, verse 10 says, shall continue in bearing my name before the world and also to the church. And he shall not suppose that he can say enough in my cause like that. And lo, I am with him to the end. Don't suppose you can say enough, Oliver. In my cause, in me he shall have glory. Verse 11 says, and not of himself. Maybe another reference to his tendencies toward pride, whether in weakness or in strange, whether in bonds or free. At all times, in all places he shall open his mouth and declare my gospel as with the voice of a trump, both day and night, and I'll give him strength such as is not known among men. So cool. Verse 13. Require not miracles, except I shall command you, except casting out devils. That's fine. Healing the sick and against poisonous serpents and against deadly poisons. And these things ye shall not do, except it be required of you by them who desire it, that the Scriptures may be fulfilled. For ye shall do according to that which is written. So what's going on here with these miracle verses? These seem to be a reference to some of the miracles Jesus promised in the New Testament would follow those that believe who have faith. Right. And it informs both Joseph and Oliver here that they have the power to perform miracles, though it implies they should use that power Sparingly. And the Savior might be speaking here of the power of miracles, because it was around this time that the very first miracle in the church was performed. Right. We mentioned Newell Knight. He's the son of Joseph Knight Sr. We've been talking about. He, like his father, was insecure about praying publicly in church meetings, and he actually goes to a nearby wood and made several attempts to pray, kind of get his strength up to pray publicly. But then he felt so bad about not praying publicly that now he felt ashamed of praying privately. And he starts going into this kind of tailspin, and he starts feeling mentally and physically unwell when he returns home. According to one account, Newell's wife says she was alarmed at his appearance, and so she calls Joseph Smith Jr. For help. Joseph, in his own history, later recalled, quote, I went and found Newell suffering very much in his mind, and his body acted upon in a very strange manner. His visage, his face and limbs distorted and twisted in every shape and appearance possible to imagine. And finally, he was caught up off the floor of the apartment and tossed about most fearfully. Whoa. Okay, this is very dramatic. This is devil possession. It's our earliest account of devil possession in this church. Super terrifying when you read the account, like, oh, my word, he's being caught up off the floor and tossed about. After he had thus suffered for a time, I succeeded in getting hold of him by the hand when almost immediately, he spoke to me and with great earnestness requested of me that I should cast, cast the devil out of him, saying that he knew he was in him and that he also knew that I could cast him out. I replied, joseph says, if you know that I can, it shall be done. And then, almost unconsciously, I rebuked the devil and commanded him in the name of Jesus Christ to depart from him. When immediately, Newell spoke out and said that he saw the devil leave him and vanish from his sight. Wow. And Joseph later noted in his history, this was the first miracle which was done in this church or by any member of it. And it was done not by man, nor by the power of man, but it was done by God and the power of godliness. Therefore, let the honor and praise, the dominion and the glory be ascribed to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit forever and ever. Amen. Wow. So when the Lord mentions this in verse 13, casting out devils, that's the first thing he mentions. Healing the sick, etc. Etc. It's likely a reference to what had just transpired not too long before this revelation was received. And in fact, you Want to tell the story about the in the court? Right. When Joseph had been pressed by those constables and taken to court in trial, don't they call Newell Knight up to the stand to talk about this?
- [42:27]
Casey
Yeah, we mentioned that. But Joseph is brought into this trial and Newell Knight testifies on his behalf. This is in Noel Might's own history, but when he was asked by one of the attorneys if Joseph had cast the devil out of him, Noel replies to the attorney, no, sir, it was done by the power of God. And Joseph Smith was the instrument in the hands of God on that occasion, he commanded him out of me in the name of Jesus Christ. So Joseph Smith does later certify in his own history and say, this is the first miracle which was done in this church. But he clarifies, or by any member of it. And it was done not by man, nor by the power of man, but it was done by God and by the power of godliness.
- [43:09]
Scott
Yeah. So both Newell and Joseph give the credit where the credit is due.
- [43:14]
Casey
So in the midst of these persecutions, some amazing miracles happening too. And the miracles become a way for them to free themselves from persecutions. Newell's testimony moves the judge enough that Joseph is acquitted a second time.
- [43:28]
Scott
Interesting. The last couple verses here in the context of Joseph dealing with his enemies are interesting and controversial case. Maybe this is. Maybe this is our controversy for section 24. Listen to this. The Lord says verse 15, I guess is the verse of controversy. And in whatsoever place ye shall enter you, Joseph and Oliver, and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony and cleansing your feet by the wayside. Whoa, Casey, what's going on here? I mean really, like literally, literally casting dust off. Yeah. What do you want to say about this?
- [44:19]
Casey
He's quoting from the New Testament, right? This is instruction that's actually given to the apostles in the New Testament when the Savior calls them to serve. But I have never seen an item that has more folklore or crazy stories surrounding it. When I was a missionary, we heard all kinds of stories about like a laundromat that had displayed the missionaries garments when they went in to do their laundry. And then the laundromat burned down. And that was like one of, I don't know, several dozen stories that I've heard again and again and again. There's a lot of folklore built up around this. And so we did try to look at it a little bit. Found this quote from James E. Talmadge, this is in Jesus the Christ. So Talmadge isn't commenting on the doctrine covenants here. He's commenting on this instruction as it's given the New Testament, but it's functionally the same. This is what James E. Talmage said. To ceremonially shake the dust from one's feet as a testimony against another was understood by the Jews to symbolize a cessation of fellowship and a renunciation of all responsibility for consequences that might follow. It became an ordinance of accusation and testimony by the Lord's instructions to his apostles, as cited in the text. In the current dispensation, the Lord has similarly directed his authorized servants to so testify against those who are willfully and maliciously oppose the truth when authoritatively presented. And by the way, this isn't the only place this shows up. It shows up in section 24. It's also in section 60, verse 15, section 75, verse 20, section 84, verse 92, and section 99, verse 4. And then Talmage says, the responsibility of testifying before the Lord by this accusing symbol is so great that the means may be employed only under unusual and extreme conditions, as the spirit of the Lord may direct. So lots of folklore about this. There's even stories about Samuel Smith. Apparently, on his first mission, he goes out and he's thrown out of a place by a tavern keeper who calls him a liar. And Samuel brushes off the dust of his feet, and when he comes back, there's a sign that says that smallpox has been present and that the innkeeper and two of his family died. I don't know what to make of those things.
- [46:26]
Scott
I don't know either. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:28]
Casey
Like, is that cause and effect? It seems like in the history. That's the connection that they're trying to make. But there's other episodes later on. For instance, in section 49, parley P. Pratt delivers a message to the Shakers, and then he shakes the dust off of his coat in front of them, and apparently nothing happens to the Shakers. So I don't know to make of this. Scott, what do you think?
- [46:49]
Scott
Yeah, it's interesting. I think you're right. This is from the New Testament. It's bringing what Jesus said to his apostles now into our dispensation. But what is difficult for me to wrap my head around is, A, when would this be useful? B, why don't we do it more often? C, if we did it more often, like, why would we do that? It seems like such a bad PR move. It seems very not forgiving. It seems very not hopeful for a person that people can change. Right. It's almost. There's kind of a sense of finality to it. Right. His other Talmage was describing that as you read that, that it's this cessation of fellowship. It's a renunciation of all responsibility for consequences that might follow. So I don't know if I've ever been in a situation, Casey, where someone has rejected the Gospel with such finality that it's like there is no hope for them and I should cast the dust off of my garments or my feet toward them. Right. Or as an act of almost. What do you call it, an ordinance of accusation. Like, it just seems. There's like a harshness to it that is. I don't know, I don't love it. But the fact that the Lord has repeated it so many times in the Doctrine and Covenants you mentioned all the sections it's in brings up another question in my mind, which is, if he's so repeatedly teaching it, then why don't we do it anymore? And was it ever done very widely at all? I don't know very many accounts. I think you mentioned the two I'm aware of Samuel Smith and Parley P. Pratt with the Shakers. I don't know. I've never read a lot of research on this. I don't think anyone's done a deep dive, some article or book about this kind of thing. If they have, I'm unaware of it, but I kind of squirm a little bit with this. Honestly, Casey, I don't know what to make of an ordinance of accusation. Why it started, why it stopped, under what circumstances it would be appropriate to do this.
- [48:37]
Casey
I would use the term ordinance lightly there. It's Elder Talmage's word. But I mean, in the official handbook today of the church, there's ordinances, and this isn't one of them. It seems like it's part of its own time and not something that really happens in the church today. And I would be a little bit skeptical about any folklore that you hear about it. Maybe my mission was just full of rumors and I accusations, Scott, but never saw this in practice and haven't since, and haven't heard any leader of the church comment on it in a really, really long time. I'll leave it where it's at.
- [49:11]
Scott
It is speckled through the Doctrine and Covenants. So when you come across it, I don't think we have much to offer by way of good explanations either as to why it began or why it.
- [49:22]
Casey
Stopped, but it is what it is.
- [49:24]
Scott
Okay, so what about the consequences of Section 24, Casey? What would we say about.
- [49:28]
Casey
Well, probably the biggest consequence, and we'll deal with it probably more thoroughly in a later section, is this marks the beginning of the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. This coincides with that. Yeah, Joseph Smith's translation process, which is in some ways going to last throughout the rest of his life, but officially takes place from around this time in 1830 until July 1833. That's when he finishes. The drought just has huge consequences. Like, like one scholar, Robert Matthews, has said that the JST and the Doctrine and Covenants are not entirely separate books. They're interwoven. It seems like the Book of Mormon was Joseph Smith's first introduction to the principles and ordinance of the Gospel. And then he's going to go even deeper by studying the Bible and translating the Bible, which is a complicated process that we might need to explain at a later date more thoroughly.
- [50:18]
Scott
But suffice it to say, for today's purposes, this, this seems to be the beginning of that. Moses 1 has been received and the Lord says continue in that and we'll see him say it again here in section 26 in a minute. The same thing about study the Scriptures and write what the Spirit tells you to write. Good consequences coming out of that. Well, let's head over to doctrine and covenants 25. This is the only revelation, Casey, that's been given to a woman in the Doctrine and Covenants. Drop us into the history here. You said this grows out of the similar Colesville persecution context. Anything else you want to say happens.
- [51:03]
Casey
Around the same time, and we've already emphasized this, but it takes place in Emma's hometown. Just to give you some backstory about Emma Smith, she's about 26 when this has been received. She's already lost a baby. She, she'd been married to Joseph for about three and a half years at this point. But as a lot of people have emphasized, the marriage went against the will of her parents. So Joseph and Emma elope, they do eventually reconcile with her parents. They come back and they're living on her parents farm when that's where Joseph Smith translates probably two thirds of the Book of Mormon. She's totally supportive of Joseph, has a great testimony. He's probably the earliest scribe of the Book of Mormon. That's what we think, and has a great testimony of the Book of Mormon. In fact, throughout her life, Emma Smith is continually interviewed about her experiences. And one of her last interviews, she says, my Belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity. I have not the slightest doubt of it. She wanted to be baptized and join the church. She wasn't baptized the day the church was organized, but she is getting baptized during this time. So earlier when we said that they baptized a bunch of people in Colesville. Emma was planning to get baptized in Colesville with several other converts, including members of the Knight family. So. So on the afternoon of June 26, they dam up a stream of water to create a pool large enough to baptize the converts. But Joseph says during the night a mob collected and tore down our dam, which hindered us from attending the baptism on the Sabbath. So early on Monday morning, Joseph said we were on the alert and before enemies were aware of our proceedings, we had repaired the dam. And emma, along with 12 other persons, were baptized by Oliver Cowdery. Before the baptismal service was over, though, a mob began to collect. That amounted to about 50 men. This is according to Joseph and Emma and the rest promptly went to the Knight's home. But the mob followed them. They surrounded the house of Mr. Knight, raging with anger and apparently determined to commit violence upon us. Some asked us questions, others threatened us so that we thought it wisdom to leave and go to the house of Noel Knight. There also they followed us. And it was only by exercise of great prudence on our part and reliance on our Heavenly Father that they were kept from laying violent hands upon us. So keep in mind at this point, Emma has been baptized, but she hasn't been confirmed a member of the church yet. And as she's getting ready to be confirmed, that's when the constable comes in and sweeps up Joseph Smith and takes him off to the trial. So she can't get confirmed before Joseph gets dragged to one trial and then to another. And you got to imagine how hard this would be emotionally on Emma. In fact, according to one source, this is Joseph's lawyer, John S. Reed. During all these trials and all the chaos surrounding it, he said he stopped in to check on Emma and said her face was, quote, wet with tears and that her heartstrings were broken with grief. So she wants to join the church she's trying to join, she gets baptized, but she can't get confirmed because Joseph keeps getting dragged from trial to trial. Joseph, after the second trial that we mentioned is over, escapes. And he writes, I was unable to escape them and make my way to safety to my wife's sister's house, where I found my wife Emma, awaiting with much anxiety the issue of those ungodly proceedings. And in her company with her. I arrived the next day in safety at my own house in Harmony, Pennsylvania. And it's here, in Harmony, in the aftermath of this incredibly stressful time, that Joseph receives doctrine confidence 25 on Emma's behalf. So this is a concerned spouse, you know, a person who's trying to do what's right. But this is her own hometown that's revolting against Joseph Smith and persecuting him. And this must have been pretty rough for Emma. That's maybe an insight into why the Lord speaks so tenderly to her in these verses.
- [54:47]
Scott
Okay, so verse one here, the Lord opens this revelation, as you said, I think really tenderly. He refers to Emma as Emma Smith, my daughter, which I think is so cool. And then he explains doctrinally why this is so. Remember, this is the voice of Jesus speaking, and Jesus is calling Emma his daughter. Now he explains why. For verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel as Emma had just recently done by way of her baptism, are sons and daughters in my kingdom. This is one of the best of a cluster of important verses in Scripture that teach that by receiving Christ and his gospel, we are spiritually reborn into the family of Jesus Christ. He actually becomes our father. We take upon ourselves his name the same way that my kids took upon themselves my name when they were born into my family. Right? They're Woodwards because I'm their father. We take upon ourselves the name of Jesus as our Father. This is a symbolic moment of him becoming our father. And then that makes us heirs of his kingdom. We are joint heirs with Christ in his kingdom. So it's just a dense little nugget. The Lord, when he just says, emma, you are my daughter.
- [55:51]
Casey
There's plenty of passages where the Lord says, those who accept the gospel become my sons. But it is just nice to read the phrase daughters in my kingdom, to recognize that women are seen as his daughters and covenant daughters as well. So just. I'm glad it's here.
- [56:08]
Scott
Scripture tends to speak in the generic male tense, right? Sons, meaning sons and daughters. It often talks about fathers. Right, right. Hearts of the children turning to their fathers. Fathers means parents, but it's in the male generic term. Right, you're right. It's nice, especially with our modern sensibilities, to hear this and to hear him speak tenderly to a sister who just got baptized and call her his daughter. So good. Okay, Verse two. The Lord promises, Emma, quote, if thou art faithful and walk in the paths of virtue before me, I will preserve thy life and Thou shalt receive an inheritance in Zion. Now, this is no idle promise, considering the high maternal mortality rates at the time Casey. And given the fact that Emma nearly died after giving birth to her first child, that's remarkable. And we do know that Emma will live to be 74 years old. So the Lord comes through on this promise with her. Behold, thy sins are forgiven thee. The Lord continues in verse three. And thou art an elect lady whom I have called. What precisely the Lord meant by elect lady here was unclear in 1830. But as we'll see 12 years later at a meeting where Emma is nominated and then voted to be the first president of the first Relief Society in the church in Nauvoo, we're going to see how this comes into play. I'm going to pause right there for that thought. We'll tell that story in a minute in the consequences. In verse four, the Lord says, murmur not because of the things which thou hast not seen. Possibly a reference to the plates, for they are withheld from thee and from the world, which is wisdom in me in a time to come, come. So again, what things the Lord is referring to here is unknown. Was it the angel which some people had seen but Emma had not? Was it visions or inspired dreams which others had beheld but Emma didn't? Maybe. Was it the plates that Joseph had been allowed to show to eight other people? Although this doesn't seem likely based on a statement we have from Emma, she said, quote the the plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment. She's talking about the time when she was scribing for Joseph. She says the plates were wrapped in a small linen tablecloth which I had given Jose to fold them in. I once felt of the plates as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book. She says, I did not attempt to handle the plates or uncover them to look at them. And here's the line I was satisfied that it was the work of God and therefore did not feel it to be necessary to do so. Credit to Emma. I had often thought that verse four was talking about the plates when he says murmur not because of the things which you haven't seen. But here she seems to say, that wasn't a burden for me, that wasn't a trial that I didn't get to see the plates. I thumbed them through the linen Cloth. I heard the metallic sound. I was convinced that this was the work of God and so I didn't need to see the plates. It's fine.
- [59:01]
Casey
I got to admire her, right. I would have peaked. There's no doubt in my mind that if I had been there, I would have lifted up the cloth, I would have looked. I might have been struck dead. I don't know what the consequences are if you look at the plates deliberately. But, I mean, this is, like I said, the Lord recognizing her great faith and she acknowledges that later on in her life. But the Lord's also, I think, trying to prepare her for what's going to happen. In verse five, be a comfort unto my servant Joseph Smith Jr. Thy husband in his afflictions, with consoling words and the spirit of meekness. When you put this in context with what was happening in Colesville at the time and these trials and all these things that are happening, the Lord has just told Joseph to patient in afflictions, for thou shalt have many. And it seems like he's trying to prepare Joseph and Emma to say, hey, this isn't going to be the only time that you're persecuted. This is the beginning of the troubles that you're having. In fact, later on, she is told to go with him at the time of his going and be unto him a scribe when he doesn't have another. The Lord's hinting that they are going to have to leave Colesville and Emma is going to have to leave the family in the home that she grew up in, which she eventually does. You know, she kind of poignantly leaves them behind and. And doesn't ever see her mother and father after she leaves. In Harmony. Right next to the cabin where Joseph and Emma were living, it's been rebuilt, but there's a cemetery that's been there since the time that Joseph and Emma lived there. There are the graves of Emma's mother and father, and they both died in the late 1830s. Emma leaves this place around fall of 1830 and does not return. So I think the Lord was trying to prepare her for that also.
- [60:39]
Scott
I like that. That's verse six, right. Thou shalt go with him at the time of his going. And you're suggesting that that's going to take her away from Harmony and she's never going to see her parents again.
- [60:49]
Casey
Actually, at the same time, too, don't get the idea that Emma's sole job was to just be a comfort to Joseph, just be a help to your husband. The revelation goes on to Say this, thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound scriptures, to exert the church. She's going to be given an active role to play in the church as well. And that's an important thing to point out here too, that yes, everybody has an obligation to support their spouse, but Emma and by extension women in the church are going to be given large roles to expound the scriptures, to exhort the church and to write, to be educated. Like this was always going to be part of the church in the beginning too.
- [61:27]
Scott
And that's going to come into play when the Relief Society is founded. That's going to be 1842. So we're about 12 years in the future here. That's going to be the first time that women are placed officially in the church as officers. As church officers. And at the very founding of that right when the Relief Society is founded, in the founding meeting, Joseph comments on this verse that you just read the verse 7, that she should be ordained under Joseph's hand to expound scriptures. Once he quotes that, he says that Emma is ordained to expound the scriptures to all and to teach the female part of the community, which is very, very cool. So she's going to be the first Relief Society president and she will in 12 years be placed in a position to like fully fulfill verse seven.
- [62:14]
Casey
Yeah, so this comes true in a lot of ways, but most prominently with the Relief Society.
- [62:18]
Scott
Then verse eight. Let's keep going. The Lord tells Emma that Joseph, quote, shall lay his hands upon thee and thou shalt receive the Holy Ghost. A welcome assurance given that at their last attempt to do this back in Colesville, Joseph was arrested. This is actually going to be fulfilled the next month in August. This sets up section 27. And thy time shall be given to writing the Lord continues, and to learning much, suggesting perhaps that Emma's work writing as scribe will lead to important learning opportunities. And thou needest not fear, for thy husband shall support thee in the church. Here's something interesting. In the original manuscript and printing of this section, it actually uses the word from the church rather than in the church. What's the difference? Well, the Lord appears to hear me addressing Emma's anxiety about their family's temporal well being. Again, Joseph had just been told in section 24 that in temporal labors he would not have strength. That's a potentially stressful statement for Joseph's wife, who depends upon his livelihood, maybe.
- [63:17]
Casey
Even more stressful for her than it was for him, you know, because women aren't expected to work outside the home. Or provide for themselves. So is my husband going to continually being dragged from court case to court case? If so, are we going to starve to death? Is a genuine concern she would have had?
- [63:34]
Scott
Yeah, totally. So back in section 24 and verse three of that section, the Lord told Joseph that at that time the church members in Colesville, Fayette and Manchester would support him as he does the Lord's work. And now here in verse nine, the Lord assures Emma that Joseph shall support thee in the church or from the church. From the church funds, right, donated by members to support Joseph and his family to some reassurance hopefully for Emma here that your family is going to be taken care of by the church. Joseph's calling again is not to launch successful business ventures. Rather his calling is as a revelator unto the church, quote that all things might be revealed unto them according to their faith. He says to Emma. So consequently Emma and her family may need to get accustomed to the very modest standard of living that will likely accompany the church supported livelihood of her husband. And on this theme the Lord further counsels em Emma, he says quote thou shalt lay aside the things of this world and seek for the things of a better. Again, adjusting some expectations like he did with Joseph in section 24, he's now doing with Emma in section 25 about how they might think about their livelihood and how they might think about being temporally sustained.
- [64:45]
Casey
So she's not just given sort of vague instructions to expound the church and to give your time to writing. She's given specific assignments as well. Verse 11 it shall be given thee to make a selection of sacred hymns to be had in my church. The rationale for this, the Lord says, is that my soul delighteth in the song of the heart. Yea, the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me which shall be answered with a blessing upon their heads. And this is something that has tremendous consequences for the church. Emma does compile the first hymn book which is published in 1835. She's held by W.W. phelps and a bunch of other church members. But she publishes a collection of sacred hymns for the Church of the Latter Day Saints which you can find on the Joseph Smith Papers project site. And I don't think anybody's going to argue that music isn't an important part of our work worship and that Emma plays a big role in setting up the hymnody, the, the hymns that we use as a church.
- [65:35]
Scott
That's huge. And we're just now at the recording of, of this episode in the Midst of the church releasing more new hymns. Right. We're kind of in the midst of reconstituting the hymn book, if we could say it that way, and that it's gone through a couple iterations, but there still are. In all the versions of the hymn book, there's still hymns that have persisted that were first put in our hymnal by Emma. Pretty awesome.
- [65:59]
Casey
Redeemer of Israel, the spirit of God, like a fire is burning. These are all in the first hymn book. And I. I don't think you need to go any further than the debates surrounding the. The hymns that show how emotionally involved they are. I've had people, you know, say they need to take out praise to the man, and other people say if they take out praise to the man, you know, I'm going to be really upset. Just so to show how much music is part of us. Connecting and worship. Worshiping with God.
- [66:23]
Scott
Well, the Lord now concludes in verses 13 through 16, by giving Emma some universally applicable counsel. He says, wherefore, lift up thy heart and rejoice and cleave unto the covenants which thou hast made. Again, just barely. Just. She just got baptized. Continue in the spirit of meekness and beware of pride. Let thy soul delight in thy husband and the glory which shall come upon him. And finally, he says. He says, keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am, you cannot come. Barely. Verily I say unto you that this is my voice unto all. Amen. That's where that universal applicability comes in. There are nuggets in here that are applicable to all. Is it that we should all write a hymnbook and compile a hymnbook? No. But these last couple of verses about keeping your covenants being meek, beware of pride, glory in your spouse, keep God's commandments like these are powerful little nuggets, the Lord says, not just applicable to Emma, but to all. Shall we dig into some controversies?
- [67:34]
Casey
Let's dig into it.
- [67:36]
Scott
The word ordain, right? The Lord said, Verse 7, Thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound scriptures. What do you want to say about the word ordain here? Is this a priesthood word in Joseph's day or what's going on?
- [67:49]
Casey
A lot of people have made a lot of fuss over the use of the word ordain in that verse because it's referring to a woman. And today we typically use ordain only in the context of a young man being ordained to an office in the priest priesthood. When we're talking about women, we usually use the language set apart. And I don't know the history of how all that developed, but I don't think that the use of the word ordain here was meant specifically to refer to the priesthood offices that men received. Just. Just referring to an 1828 dictionary from the time ordain, according to my handy dandy, 1828 dictionary, meant properly to set or to establish in a particular office or order, hence to invest with a ministerial function, function or sacerdotal power to introduce and establish or settle in the pastoral office with the customary forms and solemnities. So it's really broad and could be used in the same way that we use the word setting apart today. You know, a young woman is set apart as an officer and her young women's class or a woman in the ward is set apart as the Relief Society president. I think ordain would have been used for both of those today, where it seems like we have split them out. They were probably interchangeable. Yeah, yeah.
- [69:02]
Scott
Well. And we actually. We actually know from Eliza R. Snow, she uses that exact, like language about Emma Smith being set apart as the Relief Society president with her counselors. Let me read from Eliza R. Snow. Listen to this language. Which might sound odd to our modern ears, but this was just totally normal speak for them. She said, quote, the female Relief Society of Nauvoo was organized with a presidentess. That's what she calls Emma, who chose two counselors. These were ordained and set apart by the priesthood. Ordained and set apart, interchangeable. She's using both of those phrases by the priesthood. John Taylor was the one that did this. So by a member of the priesthood, they would say back then, this quorum. Whoa. Was fully authorized to appoint such officers, committees and assistants as were requisite from time to time, as circumstances might demand. Man. So the presidency of the Relief Society was called a quorum.
- [70:01]
Casey
Yeah. And that's a word we usually only associate with priesthood today. How does the word quorum pop up in a discussion of Relief Society?
- [70:09]
Scott
Yeah, there it is. They were a quorum. If you look up quorum in the 1828 dictionary, it's a number of officers or members as is competent by law or constitution to transact business. In other words, it's enough people to make decisions that are binding, like official decisions. Right. So a quorum in the Relief Society was the presidency who was sufficient to make decisions that were binding on the Relief Society. So they're using these words which, like you said, I don't I don't know either exactly when these words start to become associated exclusively with priesthood in our church, but they do. And so now it feels a little bit odd to our ears when we hear that Emma's going to be ordained or that the Relief Society presidency was a core who were ordained. But so it was. These are not priesthood only terms back in the 1830s and 40s.
- [70:59]
Casey
But I will say we maybe overlook how progressive this section is, too. In an era when people would still quote Paul and say women should not be permitted to speak in church, Emma's being told she's not only going to speak in church, she's going to expound the scriptures and exhort the saints and give her time to a lot of writing. And she's given a specific, like, scholarly assignment to collect hymns, put them together. This does set the stage that the church is going to actively involve women. Women are always permitted to vote, to partake and participate in the law of common consent. It does set us up for this idea that women aren't going to be passive in the church. They're going to be active, they're going to play a big role.
- [71:38]
Scott
Yeah. This is kind of seeding the ground, isn't it? The seeds. The ground which, like we said, 12 years later is going to start to really flourish in the Relief Society. And then that's going to become the pattern for all other auxiliaries of the church with primary Sunday school, young women's, young men's. This is going to be huge. So this is seeding the ground for full participation of women. What she said is at this time, maybe a little progressive, maybe a little radical right leading the pack here. Yeah. So, okay, let's do another controversy. The controversy here is Emma Smith.
- [72:10]
Casey
It's just Emma Smith, right?
- [72:12]
Scott
Emma. Yeah. She. To bring up Emma in some circles, conjures up different reactions, different feelings. Why is there such a wide array of feelings about Emma within our church?
- [72:23]
Casey
Yeah, and it feels like a lot of people, male and female, have intense feelings about Emma Smith. And it's gone in several directions over the course of the history of the church. I mean, Emma did not travel west with the saints after Joseph dies. She stays in Nauvoo. She raises her family there. Her sons become the leaders of the reorganized church, which will eventually become communities, Community of Christ. And so for a long time, you would walk into Relief Society room and see pictures of all the former presidents there, except for Emma Smith. And a lot of people didn't like Emma Smith. And some church leaders said some Pretty intense things about Emma Smith.
- [72:59]
Scott
All of this because she stays back in Nauvoo when the church comes west. And they don't want to be too positive about her because now there's a rival church that has been organized called the RLDS Church Church. And so to say, positivity about Emma would be maybe in some ways to show favor toward the church that she's endorsing because her son is a president of it. I mean, do you think that's all embroiled in this? Is that what's happening here?
- [73:23]
Casey
That's definitely part of it. It seems like the rhetoric is kind of ratcheted up when the reorganized church is launched and they're genuinely worried about this rival movement kind of swooping in. The reorganized church was saying that plural marriage was wrong. A lot of them were saying Joseph Smith never practiced plural marriage. Marriage. Emma, in her last interview, makes a statement that's the equivalent of that. And that's controversial, too. Even to this day, it's still controversial.
- [73:50]
Scott
Because let's just say it, like, some of Joseph Smith's plural wives were in Utah when Emma was saying that he didn't practice plural marriage over in Nauvoo. And so now the church members are starting to feel like maybe she's a liar. She's telling things that are only helping the narrative of the RLDS Church. Church when she knows better. And that kind of. There's those kind of feelings that are stewing in Utah contra. What's happening over in Nauvoo with Emma and this. This new church, right? Something like that.
- [74:17]
Casey
Yeah. That's a big part of it. But I will say that there's been an interesting shift, I would say, in the last 50 years in the church where some descendants of Emma Smith have joined the church. People like Gracia Jones, who's wonderful. Gracia, actually, you know, emailed me a couple weeks ago with a few questions about the podcast. And there's been a turn to where Emma was sort of represented. Not as bad figure, but as this angelic figure. And sometimes I wonder if we maybe put her on too high a pedestal when we were there. We've got to find somewhere in the middle between she's the worst and she's the best, and she's perfect because she was just a human being. And again, we've got a discussion coming up with Jenny Reader, who wrote a book about Emma Smith and had to sort through a lot of these feelings. So maybe we can put off final conclusions on Emma Smith till then. And just say, our relationship with Emma Smith is complicated, and it is for a lot of reasons, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't honor her for everything she did for the restoration. She's just a remarkable person by any measure.
- [75:16]
Scott
Yeah, 100%. I can see. Because it's human nature to want to vilify people that are outside or maybe threatening to your group. It seems like the RLDS church was a legitimate threat because it was Joseph Smith's son who was the president of that church. It was a threat to church members over in Utah. So I can see just the humanness, like, kind of ceding, you know, animosity toward that group, and then Emma's all wrapped up in that. And then plural marriage, like I think they had. If we can say, a reason to kind of vilify Emma, we have no such reason in the modern church. Right. Like, I think maybe that accounts for why we've gone so positive toward her. Like you said, maybe too far. Almost like. Like Saint Emma, you know? But I think with research and the Joe Smith papers and great scholarship and Jenny Reeder's book you mentioned, we're going to interview her. That interview is coming out in just a couple days. I think we can see Emma as a complicated figure, like all of us, who's a mix of incredible strength and virtue and power, as well as weakness and things that she struggled with. And, I mean, I think that's the most realistic picture of Emma. She's marvelous and she's frustrating and she has incredible virtues, and she's also got a little temper and she's got a beef with Brigham, and yet she is incredibly generous and so good and so. Yeah, I think just seeing her in that more realistic light is probably best. In fact, here's a tribute to Emma from Joseph Smith's mother, who also, by the way, she stays behind. She will not come west because of her age and her health. She says this about Emma, quote, I have never seen a woman in my life who would endure every species of fatigue and heart hardship from month to month and from year to year with that unflinching courage, zeal, and patience which she has always done. For I know that which she has had to endure, that she has been tossed upon the ocean of uncertainty, that she has breasted the storm of persecution and buffeted the rage of men and devils until she has been swallowed up in a sea of trouble which would have borne down almost any other woman.
- [77:22]
Casey
To say, oh, let me read the statement Joseph Smith makes about her. Too near the end of his life. This is what Joseph Smith writes about Emma. He says, with what unspeakable delight and what transports of joy swelled my bosom when I took by the hand on that night my beloved Emma. She that was my wife, even the wife of my youth and the choice of my heart. Many were the reverberations of my mind when I contemplated for a moment the many scenes we had been called to pass through the fatigues and the toils, the sorrows and sufferings and the joys and consolations from time to time had strewed our path and crowned our board. Oh, what a co mingling of thought filled my mind for the moment. Again, she is here even in the seventh trouble. Undaunted, firm and unwavering, unchangeable, affectionate Emma. Really nice tribute again, it's okay if you have complicated feelings about Emma. There's a lot surrounding her, all the issues linked to plural marriage and her not coming west again. We'll sort through some of these with an expert with Jenny Reeder. It's also imperative on us that we make Emma Smith a full figure, like she is a person and not a caricature of wickedness or righteousness. And the more I learn about her, the more I'm impressed with her. But she could also be kind of frustrating, too, I'll be honest.
- [78:38]
Scott
Consequences of Section 25. A couple you mentioned the hymn book. I think that's had incredible consequences. And then secondly, the Relief Society. When the Relief Society was organized according to the meeting minutes of that meeting, Joseph Smith actually stood up and read doctrine and covenants 25 to Emma Smith in front of the sisters from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. And he stated that she was ordained at that time, that the Revelation was given to expound the Scriptures to all and to teach the female part of the community. And his own journal records that he gave much instruction. He read some New Testament Doctrine and Covenants concerning the Elect lady. And he showed that the elect meant to be elected to a certain work and that the Revelation 25 was then fulfilled by Sister Emma's election to the presidency of the Society, she having previously been ordained to expound the Scriptures. So in Joseph Smith's mind, the outcome of section 25 was fully fulfilled in Emma's call to be the president of the Relief Society Society. Now her election was complete, Right? And so. And that that phrase is verse three, right? The Elect lady is now used for her. In fact, Elect lady is going to kind of become a title for the next couple of Relief Society presidents. They'll talk about the president of the Relief Society as the elect lady. Who's the elect lady? It's Eliza R. Snow. She was ordained as the elect lady. Or so on and so on. And so that's probably the biggest consequence to come out of this.
- [80:04]
Casey
And I'll add too that in the same minute book of the Relief Society, after Joseph reads section 25, he says, quote, not Emma alone, but others may attain the same blessings. Meaning section 25 broadens in Joseph Smith's perspective to not just be a revelation for Emma, but a revelation for women generally in the church. And most revelations are gender neutral. You know, they don't seem to be aimed specifically at men or women, just the children of God. But this is a special one, particularly for the women of the church to study and cherish.
- [80:48]
Scott
Okay, real quick, let's do section 26. It's only two verses, Casey, but any background you want to give us before we drop into those two verses.
- [80:56]
Casey
Yeah. So section 26 again is received around this kind of crazy, topsy turvy time when Joseph and Emma are worried about, about their temporal well being. Are they going to be able to be supported by the church? Are they going to starve to death? Joe's was spending a ton of time traveling between the different branches of the church in New York and Pennsylvania, which are all a fair distance from each other. And at the time they're living on this little 13 acre plot of land that they asked if they could purchase from Emma's father, Isaac Hale. And because of this pressing responsibility that Joseph has to the new church, Joseph was unable to devote a lot of time to farming land, land. And Isaac Hail apparently began putting pressure on Joseph to pay the $200 he promised for the land. So Joseph was eventually able to pay off the debt in a month following the revelation. Though Isaac remains skeptical of his son in law's prophetic calling and ability to take care of his daughter. The revelation focuses on two things. One is to instruct Joseph to continue his labors among the saints, but to also focus on his temporal labors as well. Well, but it introduces an idea here that still remains in the church and that is very timeless. So you've got some timely things. Take care of your family. Don't let your father in law evict you along with a concept that still gets used, I would say, on a regular basis in the church. Practically every Sunday.
- [82:16]
Scott
Yeah. Called common consent. Yeah. So you did the context and you're already well into the content. Maybe just two things I would Add right there in verse one, the Lord says, behold, I say unto you, you that you shall let your time be devoted to the studying of the Scriptures. Here's another little allusion to Joseph's next scriptural project, Joseph Smith translation of the Bible and the preaching and confirming the church at Colesville. He goes on and performing your labors on the land, like you said, such as is required until next conference, etc. And then verse two, he just drops almost in passing. And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen. Casey, what is common consent?
- [82:58]
Casey
Well, I mean, probably the way most people are familiar with it is the whole. All those in favor may signify by raising the right hand. That happens in pretty much every sacrament meeting in the church.
- [83:10]
Scott
So it's this idea of voting or confirming by uplifted hand.
- [83:15]
Casey
I think we don't use the word voting very often, but in the early church I think they might have been okay with that term. We tend to use the term sustained meaning partially because it's not an election. Right. Usually the people have already been called and discussed by church leaders and we're just basically saying we'll sustain them. Let me give you a couple quotes here. Joseph F. Smith, this is the son of Hyrum Smith, president of the church, said it is an important duty resting upon the saints who sustain the authorities of the church, to do so not only by lifting of the hand the mere form, but in deed and truth. So common consent can also extend to us, not just raising our hand and saying, yeah, this is okay with me, I have no problems. Indeed, in truth, he's saying, accepting their teachings, following their teachings, doing the best we can to obey what they have to say.
- [84:06]
Scott
When I sustain somebody in a calling following have been called to teach in primary, am I saying I'm going to follow their teachings? Am I saying that? Doesn't seem to fit in that case. Right. So now what are we saying? We will lend our influence to helping them succeed in whatever way or I mean, help me think through that next time I do that in staggering. What am I actually saying, Casey? Because I like what you're saying. I think about the prophets, I'm going to follow their teachings. But when I do this for people in my ward, what am I saying?
- [84:33]
Casey
And you make an interesting point that we do this for the highest offices in the church and the lowest offices in the church. You know, you might do this for somebody who's been called to lead the Nursery. But you also do it for the President of the Church, sustaining his prophets here in Revelator. So maybe not. Quote, this is George Albert Smith, president of the Church. He said, the obligation that we make when we raise our hands is a most sacred one. It does not mean that we will go quietly in our way and be willing that the prophet of the Lord shall direct this work. But it means that we will stand behind him, we will pray for him, we will defend his good name, and we will strive to carry out his instructions as the Lord shall direct. Now that obviously applies a little bit more to the higher leadership of the church. But I would say that the instruction he says there, that we will stand behind him, we'll pray for him, we'll defend him, could apply to any calling within the church. That we're going to stand by them, that we're going to help them, that, you know, if they're doing the best that they can, we'll do that, what we can to defend them and help them. If they're serving as a leader over us, we'll follow their instructions. That's part of the obligation we make when we raise our hand as well.
- [85:39]
Scott
Yeah. Here's another one from President Russell M. Nelson. Nelson. He explained this is before he was the church President back in 2014, there's a talk called Sustaining the Prophets. So he says, quote, when we sustain prophets and other leaders, we invoke the law of common consent, the phrase first used right here in section 26 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities. I like that phrase. Our sustaining is an oath like indication that we will recognize their calling as a prophet to be legitimate and binding upon us. So it seems like it has much more weight and emphasis in terms of general teachings regarding our sustaining of like the leaders of the Church. Right. The President quorum of the 12. And yet, as we mentioned, we do this every Sunday with local callings, not even our leaders, but people who are lateral to us, who are serving in Sunday school or young women's or wherever. Right. And I think the spirit of that right is we will do our best if it's in our influence to do so, to help you succeed in what you've been called by the Lord to do. Something like that.
- [86:57]
Casey
Any controversies with this section that we want to cover? Yeah.
- [87:02]
Scott
Sustain. What does it mean to sustain? Well, more. More on the other side of the question, is it ever okay to disagree with a church leader? I hear this in the circles I run with. Right. Other religious educators. And we're teaching college kids who are thinking for themselves and doing lots of important development right now. And the question comes up, I mean, not every day, but kind of regularly, like, is it okay to disagree? What I'd say is just be careful to never undermine the influence of the prophets. Right. Be patient. History has taught us, the history of our church. Church that if there are errors in any current policies, if there's a false doctrine that's currently being taught and there have been bad policies and there have been false doctrines, these things have a way of working themselves out without us picketing, without us doing anything that would cause embarrassment to church leaders. Right. If we've learned anything from our history, we know that these things have a way of working out and of being smoothed over, of being identified by those whose calling it is to identify them and to course. Correct. That's not our position as those that are not called to be their peers or to be over them. Right. So just say, yeah, of course it's okay to think for yourself. It's of course it's okay to come to your own opinions. But if you feel like you're clashing with something that's officially taught or clashing with an official policy, just be mature and careful and kind and patient about that. Just don't do anything that would embarrass the prophets or undermine their influence.
- [88:27]
Casey
There were a few times several years ago when they were doing sustainings in general conference, and I remember someone shouting their opposition, or one case, you know, someone like shouting a slogan. Right. And it was difficult to hear them. I was watching it on tv. It became common practice for the leaders of the church to say, if you have concerns, please share them with your local bishop or stake president. And that's one thing I would say is, yeah, if you felt like there was something inappropriate happening or you felt like wasn't worthy to serve in a calling, maybe that would be a time when it would be appropriate to raise your hand in opposition. But if it's just I don't think they're the best person for the job or I don't like them personally, that's probably not the time to raise your hand. You know, the Lord calls all kinds of people to different callings and sometimes really unexpected ones. But I've always been amazed at how those callings seem to sort of bring out the best in a person and help them. So I was on a high council with Scott and I was doing the sustaining and. And when I said, any opposed? I remember this like 10 year old kid raised his hand and I had to pause and say, well maybe you can come and speak with us after the meeting then. And so I took the kid aside after the meeting and said, hey, so why did you raise your hand? And he just said, I just wanted to see what would happen if I did.
- [89:49]
Scott
Just testing the waters.
- [89:50]
Casey
Just testing the waters. He was a bold young man and that's okay. But I would say don't do that. Sustain people when you can. But if you have a really good reason, if there was something like that the leaders needed to be aware of, that might be an appropriate time to express opposition. But again, we're not voting. The Lord's already called these people by revelation, we're sustaining, which means we're upholding them, we're supporting them, we're saying, yeah, I'll help them out, I'll help them be successful.
- [90:16]
Scott
Consequences from section 26 I think just again jst he is starting to happen here. Joseph Smith Translation and law of common consent.
- [90:26]
Casey
Yeah, which let's don't undersell the law of common consent. You know, there's a general conference coming up and the law of common consent will be on full display there and we see it every Sunday and it's not something that we should just take for granted. You've heard that old J. Golden Kimball story where he was doing sustainings in a conference in Nephi, Utah, and he noticed that everybody was just kind of raising their hands without any thought or forethought. So he got up and said, it is proposed that we move Mount Nebo to where Utah Lake is and Utah Lake to where Mount Nebo is. All those in favor? And the crowd sustained him and he paused and said, well, you moved it there. Now what the are you going to do with it? So I would say don't sleep through this part of church and don't miss this part of church because I've been there when those hands have been raised. And it really was a powerful moment for me to say, yeah, everybody here saying that they've got my back and they're going to help me to try and be successful.
- [91:21]
Scott
Love it. Well, thank you, Casey. That was a fun run through sections 23 through 26 next week. Section 27 and 28 got some high drama ahead.
- [91:31]
Casey
Definitely something to look forward to. The first ecclesiastical crisis in the church. And so I'm looking forward to that.
- [91:36]
Scott
Okay, see you then.
- [91:38]
Casey
Until then.
- [91:41]
Scott
Thank you for joining us on this episode of Church History Matters. Our new episodes drop every Tuesday. So please join us next week as we continue to dig into the context, content, controversies and consequences of the revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants. If you're enjoying or gaining value from Church History matters, we would love it if you could pay it forward by telling your friends about it or by taking a moment to subscribe, rate, review and comment on the podcast that makes us easier to find. For more resources to enhance your Gospel study, go to scripturecentral.org where everything is available for free because people like you donate to make it possible. So if you're in a position where you're both willing and able to make a one time or ongoing donation, be assured that your contribution will help us at Scripture Central produce and disseminate more quality content to combat faults and faith eroding material out there in the digital marketplace of ideas. Today's episode was produced by Zander Sturgel and edited by Trason Fitzpatrick, Scott Woodward and Nick Galetti with show notes and transcript by Gabe Davis. While Casey and I try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast, please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of Scripture Central or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Thank you so much for being a part of this with.