Church History Matters Podcast Summary
Episode: 130 - D&C 65-66 CFM - Sign Seeking VS Seeking a Witness - E25B Jun 16-22
Release Date: June 11, 2025
Host/Authors: Scott and Casey, Scripture Central

Introduction

In Episode 130 of the Church History Matters podcast, hosts Scott and Casey delve into Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) sections 65 and 66. They explore the nuanced themes of sign seeking versus seeking a witness, the historical context of these revelations, and their implications for faith and church history. The discussion is enriched with scriptural analysis, historical anecdotes, and personal reflections, making it both informative and engaging for listeners and newcomers alike.

Contextual Background of D&C Sections 65-66

Scott and Casey begin by setting the stage for D&C sections 65 and 66, highlighting their significance in church history.

Casey (00:36):
"Section 65 is the first section, I believe, that's received at John Johnson's home in Hiram, Ohio. And this is going to be a place that is hugely consequential for the church. This is where the Doctrine and Covenants is born."

They explain that Hiram, Ohio, became a pivotal location where Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon resided, focusing on translating the Bible and receiving significant revelations, including the vision of the degrees of glory (D&C 76). This period also marked challenging events, such as Joseph Smith's attack by a mob in March 1832.

Deep Dive into Section 65

Section 65, though brief with only six verses, is rich in biblical references and doctrinal insights.

Scott (05:06):
"An initial and striking feature of section 65 is how biblically drenched the language is. Casey like this is only six verses long, but it contains these really rich, unmistakable biblical phrases."

Biblical References and Themes

Scott highlights the numerous biblical allusions within Section 65, drawing connections to:

• Isaiah 40
• Matthew 16
• Daniel 2
• Revelation 19
• Matthew 25
• Psalm 107
• Daniel 7
• Hebrews 1
• Matthew 6

These references collectively underscore the centrality of the Kingdom of God in Jesus Christ's mission.

The Keys of the Kingdom

A significant focus is placed on the "keys of the kingdom of God," a concept introduced in this section.

Casey (14:31):
"The Latter Day Saints, particularly the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, emphasize that not many other churches do. And that is the concept or idea or the phrase the keys of the kingdom of God..."

These keys, first mentioned in Section 65 and previously referenced in Section 27, are seen as the authority to direct the establishment and regulation of God's kingdom on earth. Scott emphasizes the unique LDS perspective on priesthood keys compared to other Christian denominations.

The Kingdom of God: Spiritual vs. Political

The hosts discuss the distinction between the spiritual kingdom (the church) and the political kingdom of God.

Scott (24:57):
"There is a thing right now called the Kingdom of God on earth, but it's a preparatory thing for the kingdom of heaven to come and to be fused together with this kingdom."

They reference historical efforts like the Council of 50, established by Joseph Smith, aimed at creating a literal political kingdom to safeguard the saints. The Council's minutes reveal intentions for a pluralistic and tolerant government that respects individual religious freedoms.

Casey (28:44):
"The principles of intolerance and bigotry never had a place in this kingdom... in all governments or political transactions, a man's religious opinions should never be called into question."

Analysis of Section 66: William E. McClellan's Revelation

Section 66 recounts a revelation given to William E. McClellan, a significant yet controversial figure in early church history.

Background of William E. McClellan

Casey (37:19):
"William E. McClellan was a new convert from Paris, Illinois. He meets Joseph Smith at a conference held October 25, 26th, 1831, at Orange, Ohio."

McClellan sought personal revelation by posing five secret questions to God, hoping for direct answers through Joseph Smith. While the exact questions remain unknown, scholars like Jack Welsh have speculated based on the revelation's content.

Content of the Revelation

Scott (42:06):
"Behold, thus saith the Lord unto my servant William E. McClellan. Blessed are you... your redeemer, the savior of the world..."

The revelation addresses McClellan's spiritual standing, his mission to preach the gospel, the gift of healing, and admonitions against unrighteousness and adultery. Notably, McClellan is encouraged to seek the gospel in unproclaimed regions and is promised divine assistance in his endeavors.

Casey (53:40):
"We have the Doctrine and Covenants and other biblical scripture is really clear. We're not going to heaven. We're creating heaven here, and the kingdom is coming here."

Controversies Surrounding Section 66

Scott (55:51):
"Is he with his little test here that he rigged up. I'm going to ask five questions to the Lord privately... is this science seeking?"

Both hosts concur that McClellan's actions exemplify sign seeking, contrasting with genuine witness seeking. McClellan's subsequent excommunication in 1838, despite his initial faith and the revelation, underscores the dangers of dependency on signs for lasting faith.

Casey (59:10):
"He does stop keeping the commandments, he stops praying. He indulges his lustful desires, whatever that entailed... We can learn from his example."

Distinguishing Sign Seeking from Seeking a Witness

A central theme is differentiating between sign seeking (demanding signs to validate faith) and seeking a witness (genuinely seeking confirmation to strengthen existing faith).

Scott (62:10):
"How can you distinguish between these two? How do you know when you're seeking a witness versus seeking a sign?"

They suggest that the intention and response to receiving signs are crucial. Seeking a witness is rooted in existing faith and openness to signs as affirmations, whereas sign seeking often stems from doubt and demands immediate validation.

Casey (63:53):
"What a person brings to this matters a lot more."

Consequences and Takeaways

The episode concludes with key takeaways from Sections 65 and 66:

1. Preparation for the Kingdom:
   Both sections emphasize the ongoing preparation for the Kingdom of God to manifest on earth, aligning with the millennial reign of Jesus Christ.

2. Authority of the Keys:
   The keys of the kingdom play a pivotal role in directing the spread of the gospel and establishing God's kingdom under divine authority.

3. Personal Spirituality:
   McClellan's story serves as a cautionary tale about the pitfalls of sign seeking and highlights the importance of a strong, enduring faith.

4. Prayer and Revelation:
   The hosts encourage listeners to approach God with sincere questions and seek answers through faith and scripture rather than demanding signs.

Casey (66:14):
"We don't want to be too hard on the guy... We can learn from his example. How's that? Can we say it like that?"

Conclusion

Scott and Casey wrap up the episode by reflecting on the complexities of faith, authority, and personal revelation. They emphasize the importance of seeking genuine spiritual growth and cautions against the transient nature of sign seeking. The episode serves as both a historical exploration and a theological discussion, offering listeners profound insights into the early days of the Latter-day Saint movement and enduring lessons for modern faith practices.

Notable Quotes:

• Casey (00:36):
  "Section 65 is the first section... where the Doctrine and Covenants is born."

• Scott (05:06):
  "An initial and striking feature of section 65 is how biblically drenched the language is."

• Scott (14:55):
  "Section 27 and Section 65, what's their chronological relationship?"

• Casey (28:44):
  "It is my will that you should proclaim my gospel from land to land..."

• Scott (41:26):
  "The Lord is illustrating with William E. McClellan here what he does for those who approach him."

• Casey (63:53):
  "What a person brings to this matters a lot more."

This comprehensive summary captures the depth of the discussion in Episode 130, providing listeners with a clear and structured understanding of the key themes and historical insights related to D&C sections 65 and 66.