Church History Matters Podcast: Episode 142 - D&C 87 CFM - The Revelation on War - E32B August 4-10 (Released July 30, 2025)

Hosted by Scripture Central, Scott and Casey delve into the depths of Latter-day Saint Church History, exploring both its challenges and beauty. In Episode 142, they focus on Doctrine and Covenants Section 87, known as "The Revelation on War." This detailed summary captures the essence of their in-depth conversation, highlighting key discussions, insights, and conclusions.

Introduction to Section 87: The Revelation on War

[00:00] Scott: Introduces the topic by referencing a sequence of wars leading up to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

[00:04] Casey: Expresses hope that humanity may be past the worst of these prophetic wars but acknowledges uncertainty. Highlights the Lord’s warning and emphasizes the assurance found in the gospel amidst dark times.

Key Quote:

“If you have an assurance that the gospel is true, that Jesus Christ lives, that there's a plan of salvation and resurrection, you have something to hope for, no matter how dark it gets out there.” – Casey [00:04]

Contextual Background of Section 87

[00:42] Scott: Welcomes listeners to part two of the Come Follow Me study, transitioning into Section 87 after completing Sections 85 and 86.

[00:57] Casey: Justifies dedicating an entire episode to the brief eight verses of Section 87 due to their profound meaning.

[01:19] Scott: Clarifies that Section 87, the Revelation on War, addresses multiple wars and sets an ominous tone.

[01:41] Casey: Details the historical context of the revelation received on December 25, 1832, amidst global turmoil, including cholera outbreaks and the U.S. facing potential dissolution due to the nullification crisis in South Carolina.

Key Quote:

“Joseph Smith is just reading the newspaper, right, which he openly says that he's doing.” – Casey [03:21]

Prophecy Fulfillment: The American Civil War

[04:04] Scott: Recalls learning about the nullification crisis in history classes.

[04:07] Casey: Explains the nullification crisis, where South Carolina threatened to nullify federal laws, hinting at a possible civil war—a prophecy Joseph Smith later confirmed.

[05:57] Scott: Questions why Section 87 was omitted from the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835.

[06:01] Casey: Speculates on potential reasons for the omission, linking it to early Church sentiments and later mentions by Brigham Young. Notes that Section 87 was eventually published in the Pearl of Great Price in 1851 and added to the Doctrine and Covenants in 1876.

[07:49] Scott: Highlights the accurate prediction of the Civil War as the prophecy unfolds.

Key Quote:

“Joseph was eventually proven correct right on. On April 12, 1861, the American Civil War officially begins when Confederate forces fired upon Fort Sumter.” – Casey [09:50]

Analysis:

• The hosts discuss how Section 87 accurately predicted the Civil War, which began in South Carolina as Joseph Smith prophesied.
• They compare casualty numbers of the Civil War to other U.S. wars, emphasizing its unprecedented scale.

Expanding the Prophecy: Beyond the Civil War

[11:27] Casey: Provides casualty figures for the Civil War, contrasting them with other major U.S. conflicts to underscore its bloodiness.

[12:07] Scott: Moves to verse three of Section 87, discussing the prophecy's scope beyond the Civil War to international conflicts.

[14:25] Casey: Analyzes verses two and three, suggesting that the prophecy extends to global wars post-Civil War, including both World Wars. Highlights how Southern states sought help from European nations, aligning with the prophecy.

Key Quote:

“War shall be poured out upon all nations... These verses as a prophecy of not just the American Civil War, but also the world wars of the 20th century, this revelation becomes even more remarkable.” – Casey [14:25]

Analysis:

• The hosts explore the dual interpretation of Section 87: as a prophecy of the American Civil War and as a broader prediction of global conflicts.
• They discuss how events like World War I and II can be seen as fulfillments of the prophecy, with wars impacting nations worldwide.

Deep Dive into Subsequent Verses

Verse 4: Slaves Rising Against Masters

[17:21] Scott: Discusses verse four, which mentions slaves rising against masters—interpreted as fulfilled during the American Civil War when enslaved individuals fought for the Union.

[20:38] Casey: Considers the broader implications, suggesting that the prophecy might also relate to global shifts in self-determination and the overthrow of colonial systems.

Key Quote:

“This is fulfilled during the American Civil War... but there's still plenty of that going on today.” – Casey [20:38]

Understanding the "Remnant" and Ongoing Prophecies

Verses 5-6: The Remnant and Global Conflict

[18:17] Casey: Raises questions about the identity of the "remnant" mentioned in the prophecy, debating whether it refers to Native Americans, the House of Israel, or a broader group.

[37:52] Scott: Acknowledges the complexity in identifying the remnant and discusses varying interpretations, including their role in bringing about the end of nations.

Key Quote:

“The Lord of the Sabaoth... refers to human and angelic armies.” – Casey [17:21]

Analysis:

• The hosts explore the ambiguity surrounding the term "remnant," considering both national and global perspectives.
• They connect the prophecy to ongoing and future conflicts, emphasizing the uncertainty of its complete fulfillment.

Controversies and Criticisms

[35:22] Scott: Introduces potential criticisms, such as the prophecy being a result of Joseph Smith's awareness of contemporary events rather than divine revelation.

[27:07] Casey: Acknowledges that while Joseph Smith's prediction aligns with historical events, some might attribute it to luck or keen observation.

Key Quote:

“The prophecy that Joseph Smith gives is that the war would terminate in the death and misery of many souls. And to this day, there is no war in the history of the United States that even comes close to the Civil War.” – Casey [09:50]

Discussion Points:

• Accuracy vs. Speculation: The prophecy's accurate prediction of the Civil War is presented as evidence of its prophetic nature, while skeptics argue it could be a well-informed guess.
• Scope of Prophecy: Critics question whether subsequent global wars truly align with the prophecy or if interpretations are retrofitted to match historical events.
• Flexibility in Interpretation: The hosts debate whether the prophecy’s language is too vague, allowing for flexible interpretations that fit various historical contexts.

Key Quote:

“Maybe 1843 is the more remarkable prophecy because the whole nullification crisis context was gone.” – Scott [28:57]

Consequences and Hope Amidst Prophecy

[40:09] Casey: Summarizes the discussion, emphasizing the prophecy's long-term implications and its role in encouraging spiritual preparedness for the Second Coming.

[42:07] Scott: Reflects on how the prophecy influenced early Church leaders during the Civil War, seeing it as vindication of Joseph Smith's role and a divine consequence for national sins like slavery.

Key Quote:

“If it's not okay yet, then that means it's not the end.” – Scott [00:26]

Conclusion:

• Spiritual Preparedness: The prophecy serves as a reminder for believers to maintain faith and stand in "holy places," trusting in God's oversight during tumultuous times.
• Balanced Perspective: While acknowledging the prophecy's grim predictions, the hosts highlight the subsequent revelation of peace in Section 88, offering hope and balance.

Outro: Casey underscores that the Doctrine and Covenants, while containing prophecies like Section 87, is not a book of doom and gloom. She previews the next episode, which will discuss Section 88, "The Olive Leaf," a message of peace following the Revelation on War.

[43:03] Scott: Signs off, encouraging listeners to join the next week's discussion.

Final Reflections

[38:30] Casey: Notes the balance between specific and vague elements within the prophecy, acknowledging both its remarkable predictions and the areas open to interpretation.

[40:22] Scott: Emphasizes the enduring relevance of the prophecy, urging believers to prepare spiritually while contributing to building Zion.

[25:58] Scott: Recalls a personal experience from September 11, 2001, where Church leadership provided comfort and perspective amidst national turmoil, reflecting the prophecy’s message of peace.

Key Takeaway: Section 87 of the Doctrine and Covenants serves as a profound prophetic guide, forecasting significant conflicts from the American Civil War to potential global wars leading up to the Second Coming. While the prophecy's specific predictions about the Civil War are historically validated, its broader applications invite ongoing interpretation and reflection. The hosts encourage believers to remain steadfast in faith, finding hope and purpose amidst predicted adversities.

Stay Tuned: Next week, Scott and Casey will explore Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants, delving into "The Olive Leaf" and the Lord’s message of peace, offering a hopeful counterbalance to the war prophecies discussed in this episode.

For listeners seeking a comprehensive understanding of Latter-day Saint prophecies and their historical contexts, Episode 142 provides an insightful exploration of Doctrine and Covenants Section 87, blending scriptural analysis with historical events to illuminate its enduring significance.