153 - D&C 102-103 CFM - God’s Stance on Violence & Organizing Councils - E38 September 15-21

Summary

Church History Matters – Episode 153

D&C 102–103 CFM: God’s Stance on Violence & Organizing Councils

Podcast Date: September 9, 2025
Hosts: Scott and Casey
Main Theme:
In this episode, Scott and Casey deeply explore Doctrine & Covenants Sections 102 and 103, discussing the historical context and ongoing impact of church governance through councils (with a special focus on membership councils/courts), God’s prescribed approach to violence, and the organization and objectives of Zion’s Camp in the early Latter-day Saint movement.

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Overview of the Episode's Main Theme

Scott and Casey center their discussion on how the early Latter-day Saint church organized itself administratively (especially via councils), how God counsels the church to respond to violence and persecution, and what happens when hard choices—such as church membership removal—must be made. The episode is split between an in-depth look at D&C 102 (procedures and principles of church councils) and D&C 103 (response to the crisis in Missouri and the organizing of Zion’s Camp), weaving in insights, practical applications, historical details, and comedic anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Pattern and Power of Councils (Sections 102)

• [00:42–03:37] The Origin of Church Councils:

  • Section 102 consists of meeting minutes—not direct revelation, but minutes documenting procedures Joseph Smith based on revelation about ancient councils.
  • As the church grew, organizational structures were required beyond a presidency—leading to the establishment of high councils.
  • Casey: “One of the reasons why our church endured, was there were these councils set up. So when Joseph Smith was killed, a council, the quorum of the 12, step forward and there’s councils going all the way down…” [08:40]

• [04:36–07:38] Ancient Patterns and Modern Application:

  • Joseph Smith attempted to model church governance on ancient councils, emphasizing presence, focus, propriety, and the record-keeping of actions for future accountability.
  • Everyone in the church participates in councils—formal (high/ward councils) or informal (families), reflecting longstanding scriptural precedent (e.g., Acts 15).

• [11:19–18:36] Terminology – Standing vs. Traveling Councils; General vs. Local Authorities:

  • The first high council was the “standing council” (governing a set area), with the Apostles as “traveling high council” (serving where no stakes were organized).
  • The system bred cross-training and organizational continuity.
  • Scott: “The genius of our church government is government through councils… by counseling together, they can arrive at an accord. It is amazing. It is powerful.” [18:36] (Quoting Stephen L. Richards)

• [20:43–30:27] Membership Councils: Rationale and Process

  • Councils address transgression too serious to be handled by a bishop alone.
  • Three main purposes of membership councils (per the Handbook; [22:31]):
    1. Protect others (from physical/spiritual threat)
    2. Help an individual access repentance and healing
    3. Protect church integrity by addressing actions that damage trust
  • Casey: “I was genuinely blown away at how much love was shown in these councils for the individual, that it was not the Spanish Inquisition. It was very… carefully acted out, so that we could help somebody… work through those issues…” [23:58]
  • Rich procedural details: drawing lots for impartiality, a focus on equity, and the guarantee of the accused’s right to speak and appeal.
  • Scott: “It’s not 12 against one… six max can speak against the accused… the other six are there to make sure no insult or injustice is done...” [27:56]
  • Joseph Smith: “It was not the order of heaven in ancient councils to plead for and against the guilty, as in our judicial courts…” [29:02]

• [31:52–35:24] Outcomes of Membership Councils

  • Three broad possible results: remain in good standing, formal membership restrictions (used to be called disfellowshipment), or withdrawal of membership (formerly “excommunication”).
  • None are intended as punishment; rather, they're measures to protect the vulnerable, church integrity, and support repentance and return.

• [36:24–46:06] Real-World Example and Controversy

  • First disciplinary case: Brother Curtis Hodges on trial for “preaching too loudly”—council listens, rebukes, he repents, case closes tenderly.
  • Scott: “He sums all the evidence up… Joseph Smith... gave his decision, which was that the charges had been fairly sustained by good witnesses… Brother Hodges then rose and said… he had learned more during this trial than he had since he came into the church. He confessed freely his error and said he would attend to overcoming that evil, the Lord being his helper.” [44:58]
  • Casey: “Every time I participated in one [a council] I have just come away with such amazing, immense respect for the local leaders… and for how kind and caring and Christlike they were.” [44:58]
  • Membership councils may cause pain, but, as Casey observes, church officers are held to a higher standard, and trust requires rigorous accountability.
  • Casey: “Membership in the church has to mean something, or it doesn’t really have a point.” [41:45, 46:06]

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The Crisis in Missouri and Zion’s Camp (Section 103)

• [46:07–50:04] Historical Context:

  • In late 1833, Saints are violently expelled from Jackson County, Missouri—Parley P. Pratt and Lyman Wight relay the horrifying aftermath to Joseph Smith in Kirtland.
  • Governor Dunklin offers state military escort for a return but not for continued protection.

• [51:17–56:18] The Lord’s Perspective on Suffering and Chastening

  • Section 103 gives context: the Saints’ suffering is allowed both so that the “wicked” can fill the measure of their iniquity, and so the Saints are chastened for past disobedience.
  • Scott: “The Lord says… they did not hearken altogether… and so they need to be chastened… The Lord is merciful and he has more for them to do.” [54:15]
  • The narrative aligns the Missouri Saints with ancient Israel—paralleling their plight and eventual redemption.

• [56:18–62:37] Instructions for Redeeming Zion

  • Redemption is conditional: “If they pollute their inheritances, they shall be thrown down…” (v. 14)
  • The Lord affirms Joseph Smith’s leadership and commands gathering, continued land purchases, and peaceful legal means for reclaiming land, while only fighting in self-defense if necessary—“power” does not necessarily mean violence.
  • Casey: “A quick review of the Revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants shows that the Saints were continually instructed to purchase the lands at Zion and obtain the land through peaceful and legal means…” [61:25]

• [62:37–68:55] The Lord’s Stance on Violence and Actual Zion’s Camp Plans

  • “Peacekeeper” model: The Saints are to reclaim their lands peacefully and only defend if attacked.
  • Casey: “The model isn’t that they’re going to fight. The model is they’re going to present themselves as representatives of God, and if it comes to violence, God is going to fight for them.” [63:45]
  • Dramatic account of the “Battle” of Fishing River: an approaching mob is repelled by a miraculous storm, interpreted by Joseph Smith and others as God’s intervention (“God is in this storm.” [64:10]).

• [68:55–79:57] Organizing Zion’s Camp: Recruitment and Outcomes

  • The Lord gives specific recruitment instructions: seek at least 100 men, up to 500 if possible, to join Zion’s Camp.
  • Minimum requirement is set; recruiting begins with leaders sent out in companionships.
  • In reality, about 205 men and 20–25 women and children make up the Camp, revealing the gap between command and actual turnout.
  • Joseph Smith’s personal doubts run parallel to his faith—recognizes both their small numbers and trusts God may yet enable success.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “As I conceive it, the genius of our church government is government through councils…” – Stephen L. Richards, quoted by Scott ([18:36])

• “It was not the order of heaven in ancient councils to plead for and against the guilty, as in our judicial courts... [every counselor] should speak precisely according to the evidence and according to the teaching of the Spirit of the Lord.” – Joseph Smith ([29:02])

• On the spirit of membership councils:
  “I was genuinely blown away at how much love was shown in these councils for the individual, that it was not the Spanish Inquisition…” – Casey ([23:58])

• On accountability:
  “Membership in the church has to mean something… or it doesn’t really have a point.” – Casey ([41:45])

• On the first disciplinary case:
  “Brother Hodges then rose and said… he had learned more during this trial than he had since he came into the church. He confessed freely his error and said he would attend to overcoming that evil, the Lord being his helper.” – Scott ([44:58])

• On God’s stance on violence and Zion’s Camp:
  “The model isn’t that they’re going to fight. The model is they’re going to present themselves as representatives of God, and if it comes to violence, God is going to fight for them.” – Casey ([63:45])
  “In the Moses and the Red Sea example, the Israelites don’t fight. They follow the Savior’s instructions, and the Savior engages with the enemy, which is the same thing happens here [at Fishing River].” – Scott ([64:10])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–11:19 — Introduction; Transition of council patterns from ancient to modern LDS experience
• 11:19–31:52 — Types of councils, rationale and practical organization, real-world application
• 31:52–35:24 — Outcomes and case studies for church membership councils
• 36:24–46:06 — Controversy and necessity of membership councils; First case study (Curtis Hodges)
• 46:07–56:18 — The Missouri crisis and revelation of Section 103; suffering, chastening, and hope
• 56:18–68:55 — Instructions for “Redeeming Zion”; recruitment of Zion’s Camp; Lord’s stance on violence and justice
• 68:55–79:57 — Recruitment logistics and emotional realities of organizing Zion’s Camp, intended vs. actual outcomes
• 79:57–80:56 — Recap and preview of next episode

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Tone and Language

The episode blends earnest doctrinal exploration with accessible, down-to-earth humor (“high councilmen sound like they’re from another planet…” [07:38]), personal anecdotes, and a spirit of transparency and accountability. The hosts stress compassion, institutional integrity, and following God’s will—even in ambiguity.

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Conclusion

This episode richly contextualizes D&C 102 and 103, showing their significance for both church government and the Saints’ lived experience. Scott and Casey make clear that the legacy of church councils is vital, humane, and divinely inspired, and that the events surrounding Zion’s Camp are best understood through the lens of peaceful self-defense, faith, and learning—rather than as simplistic tales of vengeance or martial violence. This foundational episode offers listeners clarity about both the letter and the spirit of these formative sections in LDS church history.

Transcript

[Casey]

I walked into a church membership council, and we were drawing lots, and I was like, this is what we do in section 102.

[Scott]

Are church membership councils necessary?

[Casey]

Membership in the church has to mean something or it doesn't really have a point. I want to be part of an organization that works to maintain its integrity, that strives to do what it says, to walk the walk and talk the talk.

[Scott]

The integrity of the church is not protected, but by concealing or minimizing serious sins.

[Casey]

Would it surprise you if I told you a president of the church was brought before a membership council?

[Scott]

We get the very first case brought to the High Council, and it just makes me chuckle every time I read it.

[Casey]

Hello, Scott.

[Scott]

Hello, Casey. How we doing?

[Casey]

Pretty good. These are some of my favorite sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, you know, where we start seeing the church as we know it today come into form. Most of these sections are about the crisis that's going on in Missouri and. And the March of Zion's camp. But there's one little section here that sometimes gets overlooked because it's kind of an oddball in the Doctrine and Covenants. It's not really a revelation, but it's based on revelation. It's minutes from a council meeting. And usually the idea of minutes don't get people really excited, but I guess I'm just that kind of person that likes the minutia of church government.

[Scott]

Casey, how many times this year have you said these are my favorite sections of the Doctrine and Covenants?

[Casey]

I. I know, I know, but it's like asking, like, which one of my kids is my favorite? You know, I genuinely do love all of them. I like teaching section 102, for instance, because it seems like it comes out of nowhere for most people. Most people aren't aware of what it's saying or what the message is. So it's new material for most people, which is kind of fun.

[Scott]

Yeah. Literally, like, section 102 is one of those sections where it's not a revelation. It's minutes of a meeting that was held in Kirtland that made it into our Doctrine and Covenants. And the subject. Subject matter. Lean in a little bit here. The subject matter is the establishment of the High Council. This is not the stuff that gets people really excited, generally speaking, Casey. And yet you say this is among your favorite sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. That's so awesome.

[Casey]

I like it. And let me tell you, one of the reasons why I like it is I served on a Stake High Council, and it was one of those moments when what was in the Doctrine and Covenants directly connected with what we were doing. Like, I remember walking into a meeting and they were passing out lots, just like they explained in section 102. And I stopped and said, oh my goodness, are we going to do section 102 today? And they were like, we don't know what you're talking about. This is how we do things. And I was like, this is section 102. And it's just kind of neat to see fidelity to the revelations. And so I can't say that when I was growing up, section102 really fired my imagination. But now that I'm old and I'm kind of a church Nerd, Section 102 is one of those things that is given practical that still happens in the church today. So I think it's neat.

[Scott]

It is neat. Okay, so let's. Let's set the framework. So in this episode, we're going to cover section 102 and 103. That's probably going to fill up enough time for one episode. Then we're going to do another episode this week for sections 104 and 105. And so this week is another two episode week as we cover these sections of. Come follow me. So with that said, let's dive into section 102. Foreign. Casey. So what is the context behind this exhilarating revelation about high councils? That is the meeting minutes.

[Casey]

The minutes, yeah. The most exciting minutes. There's a lot of minutes in church history, by the way, and I love them all, but these ones made it into the Doctrine and Covenant. So the context here is it's 1834 and church is four years old, and it's starting to get a little bit larger. There's two stakes, one in Ohio, one in Missouri, and there's starting to be a greater need for more organization. Like, we've already seen them organize a presidency. So we've got three people running the church. Now they're realizing, ah, we need more people to help run the church too, and a kind of hierarchy. So the decisions are made in an orderly fashion. Like I said, the minutes themselves in section 102 are not a revelation. But the whole record from the meeting which you can access on the Joseph Smith paper site, reveals that Joseph Smith taught principles here that were based on a revelation.

[Scott]

Okay, so this section itself, the minutes are not the revelation, but it's based on a meeting that was based on revelation.

[Casey]

Yeah, yeah. The principles are based on revelation. For instance, they have a council meeting on February 12, and Joseph Smith gets up and says he's a little bit concerned about the way councils are being conducted. And then he tells them this. This is what the minutes say, the parts that weren't canonized in ancient days. Councils were conducted with such strict propriety that no one was allowed to whisper, be we leave the room or get uneasy in the least until the voice of the Lord by revelation or by the voice of the council by the Spirit was obtained. And then he chastises them a little bit because he notes, generally one would be uneasy, another asleep, one praying, another not one's mind on the business of the council and another thinking on something else. This makes me think if Joseph Smith came to church today, he would not be thrilled. He'd probably be like, one's on their phone, one's doing wordle and all this stuff. He's saying, hey, when you're in a meeting, be there, be present, be focused. He then emphasized the importance of counsels. And he says this. Our acts are recorded and at a future day they will be laid before us. And if we fail to judge right and injure our fellow beings, they may there perhaps condemn us. So he's saying, if you're sloppy in your meetings, you might end up hurting somebody because you haven't been paying attention.

[Scott]

Especially in meetings where you're meant to cast some judgment on a member's membership or their ability to participate in the church. Right? Like, let's make sure we get. That's important.

[Casey]

If we don't do it right, we might injure somebody. So this is coming from a place of concern. He's seeing that sloppiness in these councils could wind up hurting people. Then five days later, on February 17, the council met again. This time was presided over by the first presidency of the church, who were also the stake presidency in Kirtland. And Joseph told the group of priesthood leaders there that he would, quote, show them the order of councils in ancient days as shown to him by vision. That's where the revelation comes in. So he's saying, I'm explaining to you how councils worked anciently, as it was shown to me in vision, meaning there was a revelation that prompted section102. Just section102 isn't the revelation. Section102 is the minutes of their discussion of these principles. It was written down by Orson Hyde and Oliver Cowdery, though Joseph Smith does get a chance to look at them and he does revise them on February 19, a couple days after the meeting. Several months later, after traveling to Missouri, Wisconsin's Camp, because that's the major story in these sections today. The prophet organized another hike council in Missouri on July 3, 1834. The stake presidency of the church in Missouri presided over this high council. And remember, at the time, there's only two stakes in the church. One in Ohio, one in Missouri. And as the church grew and new stakes were created, High council serving under stake presidencies were organized according to this pattern. So the high council might be something that most members of the church are just familiar with as those people that come and talk to you, what is it usually like the third Sunday of every month and bring a message from the stake. But they do a lot.

[Scott]

I remember John, by the way, I was on their show for this four years ago for these sections, and he made the joke that high councilmen sound like they're from another planet. Right. They come and say, we bring you greetings from our supreme leader, the stake president. Very funny.

[Casey]

Anyway, it seems like, well, once a month we're concerned about the high council. But no, they are doing a lot of stuff behind the scenes. And on a personal level, my dad was on the high council and his solution for his talking assignment every month was to usually bring my whole family. And so this was sort of my initiation into speaking in church and being involved in church. And I'm grateful to my dad for it. Like today I look back and say, hey, that's good that he did that. Maybe I should have kicked my kids in the butt a little bit and gotten them to do a few things.

[Scott]

So you're saying like the high councils that we're super familiar with now in every stake ultimately finds its origin right here in section 102. And the first one was set up in Kirtland, Ohio, with Joseph Smith as the stake president.

[Casey]

Yeah. And when you think of that idea of 12 presiding high priests, you can see that's going to play out in other places. One of the real genius innovations of the early church was councils. Because a lot of movements are trying to do the same thing as us and they usually have a charismatic leader. But once the charismatic leader dies, the movement dissolves. The reason, or at least one of the main reasons why our church endured, was there were these councils set up. So when Joseph Smith was killed, a council, the quorum of the 12, step forward and there's councils going all the way down to. My 12 year old just got put into a council. She is a presidency member in the Young Women's and she's learning the art of church governance right now. As a young Woman So again, this section is not a formal revelation, but the patterns and procedures explained in it are based on revelation given to Joseph Smith when he was talking to the council. He explained, these are his words, the order of councils in ancient days, as shown to him by vision, the law by which to govern the council of the church of Christ. He then explains, Jerusalem was the seat of the church council in ancient days. The Apostle Peter was the president of the council and held the keys of the kingdom of God on the earth and was appointed to this office by the voice of the Savior and acknowledged in it by the voice of the church. So he's saying, I've seen in ancient days how these councils were conducted. He cites Peter specifically. There's precedence for this in Scripture, in Acts, when they have a big issue over whether or not circumcision should be required for a person to join the church. It talks about them getting together in Jerusalem and holding a council and discussing the circumstances surrounding this, and then the council makes a decision to move forward. We sometimes ignore the fact that this is one of the main ways revelation comes to the church. It can come directly to the presence of the church. For instance, Peter gets a revelation in Acts 10 that allows them to start spreading the gospel among all nations, not just members of the house of Israel. Or it can come through a council, like the way it does in Acts 15, where meet together and discuss this issue surrounding circumcision. So the minutes here organize the first high council, but they sort of set the pattern for how all councils should operate in the church. And just about everybody in the church is part of a council. I mean, if you're not part of a formal church council like the high council or the ward council, you're a member of a family council. And so this pattern for councils affects everybody in the church because everybody in the church is part of a council. And we even take the idea of council so seriously that we believe before God initiates the plan of salvation. He held a council. Councils are a big deal.

[Scott]

Yeah. And specifically, section 102 sets the pattern for what we've called in the church, variously, like a church court, a church disciplinary council, and now we call them membership councils. Correct?

[Casey]

Correct.

[Scott]

It's what do we do when somebody, a member of the church, has transgressed to a degree that there might need to be some local leadership or stake leadership to make a judgment upon their membership? And that's specifically here. So you're saying the general pattern of councils, it's going to apply on all the different levels. But Section 102 specifically is about what we call membership councils today. Is that a fair distinction?

[Casey]

That's a fair distinction. At the same time, too. I mean, the wording in section 102 is that they settle important difficulties in the church. And of course, the most important difficulty is a person's individual salvation and membership and God's church. But councils are used to solve all kinds of issues. And again, I think the real genius of our church is the way we're set up and organized into councils. Because as as chaotic as church sometimes seemed, we do get stuff done, and we get it done with involvement of a lot of gifted people that bring a lot to the table.

[Scott]

Yeah, 100%. Okay, very good context. Let's dive into the content. So verse one from the minutes of this meeting says this day a general council of 24 high priests assembled at the house of Joseph Smith Jr. By revelation and proceeded to organize the High Council of the Church of Christ, which was to consist of 12 high priests and one or three presidents, as the case might require. Verse two now tells us the why the High Council was appointed by Revelation for the purpose of settling important difficulties which might arise in the Church which could not be settled by the church or the bishop council to the satisfaction of the parties. Today we might have a paradigm of a ward bishop where maybe the bishop, someone, a member comes to the bishop, has some real intense difficulties that the bishop says, you know what? This probably needs to be escalated to the stake High Council. Right. That's how it would probably look today. In verse three, it tells us the names of those original 12, and they're. An important phrase at the end of verse three is that they were chosen to be a standing council for the church. So the high council in Kirtland is. Well, it's unique among all councils because the first presidency presided over it as the stake presidency. It's the only time in the history of the Church where the first presidency has been the stake presidency. And yet that now becomes the pattern for all stakes. But I want to highlight the phrase the standing council. So standing council means that they're responsible for a specific geographical area that's designated as a stake, as opposed to the phrase like general council or other phrases we're more used to are local authorities versus general authorities. Right. We're about to get a quorum of the Twelve Apostles by section 107 that we'll talk about next week. And they're going to be called a traveling high council as opposed to this standing High council. So this is where we're starting to be introduced to these kinds of terms of general versus local. Local authorities, general authorities, local councils, traveling councils. All right, just getting the terminology down.

[Casey]

And this is all kind of wonky stuff, right? Sometimes we just take for granted the words that we use in the church. I remember when I was a seminary teacher, I had like a spotlight form that I would have kids fill out. And one of them, one of the questions was, who's your favorite general authority? And I had a kid come to me who came from a semi active family and he was like, what's a general authority? And I hadn't even thought about the words that there are local authorities which have geographical limitations, and then there are general authorities that don't have geographic limitations, that just authorities in general that go everywhere and do everything that they're supposed to do. Like the General Relief Society president doesn't have a geographical stewardship. She can travel around and set an order, Relief societies throughout the church, so on and so forth. So again, this is a little bit wonky, but standing versus general. And then the quorum of the 12 is originally introduced as a traveling high council. So they go to places where there's no organized stakes, where there's just branches, and they act as the high council there. And that's what they really do for the first couple of years until the church grows and the quorum of the 12 is needed to sort of fill in the role that the first presidency originally played, which is govern the church, generally speaking.

[Scott]

Yeah, that's something that I didn't recognize that for the first. I don't know, like 30 years of my life, Casey, that the Quorum of the twelve Apostles originally did not have jurisdiction within stakes. Today, that's not how it is. But yeah, they were the high council. Wherever there wasn't a standing high council, they were the traveling one. Which that's going to come into play when we get into the succession crisis and there's going to be a stake president, William Marks, who will exert his authority in saying that he has the right to lead the church, whereas the 12 as traveling counselors do anyway. He tries to make an argument against the 12 because he has stake local jurisdiction. Anyway, it gets complicated. But just know that these things are in development and they're going to start to work themselves out over the next decade or so. So good times. Stay tuned for some succession crisis stuff later. But for now, let's stick to section 102.

[Casey]

Back to section 102, verse four, just procedural thing. The counselors were Asked if they accepted their appointments, and then a couple standards, whether they would act in that office according to the law of heaven. To which they all answered that they accepted their appointments and would fill their offices according to the grace of God bestowed upon them. Then they lay down a couple rules that are still followed, like verse six. The high council cannot have power to act without seven of the above named counselors. So you have to have a majority or a quorum in order to act. I've seen instances where a meeting of a stake high council was held and, and some of the high counselors were missing. And so they asked people say from a bishopric to come in and fill in. That happened a lot in my stake when I served on the high Council. We'd have brother so and so, who's the second counselor in the ninth ward, come in to fill in this gap. Gives him a little training, also allows them to have a full quorum so that they can make decisions.

[Scott]

And that's verse seven, right?

[Casey]

That's verse seven, yeah. They have power to appoint other high priests whom they consider worthy and capable to act in the place of absent counselors. So again, it's just kind of neat that I saw all this stuff actually followed in the modern church that we don't just pay lip service to the scriptures, we actually do the stuff that's in the scriptures. It was kind of thrilling for me, to be honest with you. And then it says, whenever vacancy shall occur by death, removal from office for transgression, or removal from the bounds of this church government of any of the one of the above named counselors, it shall be filled by the nomination of the president or presidents sanctioned by the voice of a general council of high priests convened for that purpose to act in the name of the church. So again, this is just basically us establishing councils, right? The councils are called by inspiration, but we don't believe inspiration just comes to the highest levels of the church. It can come to the mid levels of the church, to the grassroots levels. This is this idea that divine power is kind of saturated throughout the church and councils are operating at all levels of the church to receive revelation for what they're supposed to do in their area.

[Scott]

Can I back you up in your exuberance for the genius of high councils with a power quote, I think from a member of the first presidency. This is Stephen L. Richards. He was, remember the first presidency under David O. McKay. He said this, and I think it's such a great quote. He said, as I conceive it, the genius of our church Government is government through councils. The Council of the Presidency, the council of the 12, the Council of the Stake Presidency, the Council of the Bishopric. I have had enough experience to know the value of councils. He says, I see the wisdom, God's wisdom, in creating councils to govern his kingdom. And then he says, in the spirit under which we labor men can get together with seemingly divergent views and far different backgrounds, and under the operation of that spirit, by counseling together, they can arrive at an accord. It is amazing. It is powerful. You and I have seen this over and over again. I agree with that. I like his phrase. This is the genius of our church governance. This really kind of mundane thing where we get people together to counsel together about really important matters. And it just works, Casey. It just works.

[Casey]

It works. And one of the, I guess, fallacies that sometimes people use when they look at early churches, church history is with any history, we want to just boil it down to one or two amazing people. And in the early church, sometimes people just say, Joseph Smith, you know, Joseph Smith was amazing, or Emma, or any of the other significant figures. And we sometimes need to back up and say, Joseph Smith was an incredible person, but he acted within a council and he acted with support. And the reason why our church survived was because when Joseph Smith was killed, a council was there to take over. And the council system is really what's kept us going, because you're not just having amazing leaders, you're training the next person that's going to come in and take over and continue the story as we go. So again, we want to highlight that this section gives us a feel for the importance of councils and is important because it's really the beginning of this extended council system that works in the church today.

[Scott]

Okay, let's get into the nitty gritty here. Verses 9 through 12 explain the procedures for holding a church membership council, as we call it to today. Again, in the past, it's been called a disciplinary council. It's been called a church court. We call it church membership council. Today, as noted in verse two, these councils convene to deal with difficult cases that can't be resolved by a bishop's council. Okay, this is really when we're talking about people who are either trying to repent or needing to repent. We know that in most cases, repentance is just handled between an individual and the Lord and sometimes by those who they have affected. Right. Their individual sins. You might need to go and confess or ask forgiveness of people that you have hurt or offended. And so some way more serious Sins we know are resolved with the assistance of a bishop who holds the keys to act as a judge in Israel and to help them work through the process of repentance, which is still between them and the Lord. But the bishop kind of helps and counsels and assesses whether or not the repentance is sufficient. Church membership councils that are escalated to the stake level today usually involve a person who has made temple covenants or who holds an important position of trust in the church. Church. All right, so this is like our most serious cases. Church membership councils are generally held for one of three reasons. First, they're meant to help protect others. Right. As our general handbook states today, it says sometimes a person poses a physical or spiritual threat. Right. Predatory behavior. The church handbook mentions physical harm, sexual abuse, substance abuse, fraud, and apostasy are some of the ways that this can occur. With inspiration, a bishop or stake president then acts to protect others from that person. Right. When someone poses a threat in these and other serious ways. All right, so that's reason number one, why we might hold a council.

[Casey]

Yeah. And we're pulling straight from the church handbook here, so you can access these. And I'll just say, in my experience serving on a stake high council, reason number two was the reason we held every church membership council that I attended. We never held one for reason one or reason three, which we're going to bring up. Second, it says a church membership council may be held to help a person access the redeeming powers of Jesus Christ through repentance. Through this process, he or she may again become clean and worthy to receive all of God's blessings when serious sin has occurred. These counsels can help an individual come to terms with what's occurred, reconcile with Jesus Christ, to overcome their sins and to repair the damage done to themselves and the important relationships in their lives. And these councils are conducted in the spirit of love. Every involved individual seeks to do what is best for the individual who's fallen into transgression. And I will mention here, too, these councils are, are kept confidential unless there's a really compelling reason, like someone is making a public display of this. I have occasionally seen them release information from them. But everyone that I participated in, I'm not gonna name names or say anything, but involved personal transgression, something like infidelity within a marriage. They were handled, at least what I saw. And my stake president was incredible. Like, I learned so much from him during my service. They were handled with such care and sensitivity and caution for the. So everyone that I participated in was for the second reason, just to help somebody repent. And I was genuinely blown away at how much love was shown in these councils for the individual, that it was not the Spanish Inquisition. It was very, very, very carefully acted out and worked out so that we could help somebody that had caused major damage to their life and their relationships work through those issues and get back to a good place with their spouse and with the Lord.

[Scott]

I think that's really important hear you say that, Kasey, because this is something that most church members have not seen, have not experienced. And so sometimes our imagination can run wild. Right. Like what happens when a transgressor goes into this council. These are councils of love with the 100% motive to try to help this person repent and reconcile with the Lord. Right. If that, if possible. Like that's the goal. Okay? Now, the third reason why a church corporation court or a disciplinary council, or today we call it a membership council, may be held is to protect the integrity of the church. Here's what the church handbook says today. It says restricting or withdrawing a person's church membership may be necessary if his or her conduct significantly harms the church. What does that mean? They go on. The integrity of the church is not protected by concealing or minimizing serious sins, but by addressing when it comes to the point where whether the church is harmed or that person is taken out of the church, when that decision needs to be made, at that point, the person would be removed.

[Casey]

We're not pointing a finger at any specific religion out there, but I think everybody listening or watching this is aware of the immense damage that has been done to trust in religious institutions, because there isn't this kind of. Or there's been neglect of this kind of regulation. Like, let's say a state clerk is embezzling funds or something like that could seriously harm a person's trust when they're giving tithing to the church. Or let's say a church leader acts in an abusive way that can undermine the trust that a person feels when they have to go in and talk about details of their life or sins that they've committed. And so the necessity of these councils is there because abuse does happen. And if you want to go into the handbook and see some of the things that necessitate the holding of church membership council, it's not a pretty list, I'll be honest with you. But that's the world that we live in. And the church has to react to that world and keep itself as an institution of integrity. Like it says here. We just don't really help the Church if we ignore these things or sweep them under the rug, we got to deal with them. And membership councils are one way that we do that.

[Scott]

And so then section 102 then just talks about exactly how this is conducted. So step one, if you pick it up in verse 13, it says, whenever this council convenes to act upon any given case, the 12 counselors shall. Here's the first thing they do. They consider whether it's a difficult one or not. Okay? How serious is this? How complicated is this? How egregious is the accusation? Right? If it's not very difficult, then two only of the counselors need to speak upon it according to the form above written. If it's difficult, verse 14 says, then four should be appointed. And if it's super difficult, six will be appointed to speak. In no case shall there be more than six appointed to speak. The accused, verse 15 says, in all cases has a right to one half of the council to prevent insult or injustice. This is important, right? It's not 12 against one, right? There's going to be those that are making sure six max can speak against the accused. The other six are there to make sure no insult or injustice is done to that person. I think that's a beautiful safeguard. Then they do that. Verse 16, the counselor is appointed to speak before the council, Present the case after the evidence is examined in its true light before the council Counsel. Every man is to speak according to equity and justice. And the way you decide whether or not you are one that gets to speak or one that is there to prevent insult or injustice is literally by the drawing of numbers. Verse 17 outlines those who draw even numbers. 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 12 are the individuals who stand up in behalf of the accused. And those who are the odd numbers are those who bring the case against them. So it's literally right random. By drawing a number one through 12 out of a hat like you've been there, Casey, this is how it's done.

[Casey]

This was what I got really excited about. I walked into a church membership council and we were drawing lots and I was like, this is what we do in section 102. I am participating in something outlined in the Scriptures, which I guess we do all the time. I mean, I should get this excited when we pass the sacrament, we just don't act out section 102 every day. And I got a little carried away.

[Scott]

Now, this, this doesn't mean, okay, that those who draw even lots act as, like, defense attorneys. And those who draw odd Number lots act as like prosecutors. It's not like that in these councils. All who are present are simply seeking for the truth and for the best way forward for this person who's being accused. Okay, this is another important example that we still follow today that section 102 is laying out.

[Casey]

Here's one of the ways Joseph Smith explained it. So Joseph Smith said this. He said it was not the order of heaven in ancient councils to plead for and against the guilty, as in our judicial courts. Then there's a little parenthetical so called, but that every counselor, when he arose to speak, should speak precisely according to the evidence and according to the teaching of the Spirit of the Lord. And no counselor should attempt to screen the guilty when his guilt was manifest. The person accused before the high council had the right to one half of the members of the council to plead his cause in order that his case might be fairly presented before the president, that a decision might be rendered according to truth and righteousness. And then when it came to the rights of the person that had been accused, Joseph, Joseph Smith explained in all cases, the accuser and the accused have a perfect right to speak for themselves before the council. So when individuals appear before a church membership council, they've usually already spoken with a bishop and a stake president. And the council is there to kind of allow a full accounting of their sins, to allow council members to use their collective wisdom to assist in finding the best way forward for the individual. And sometimes these don't go all the way up to a stake high council. Often they're held by what's called the bishop's council, which is the bishop and his two counselors. In fact, that's increasingly common in the church because appearing before a full high council can be pretty overwhelming for a person. So it's usually reserved for the most serious sins.

[Scott]

Yeah, and that phrase bishop's counsel is right here in verse two, isn't it? That's from the very beginning. There's bishop's counsels, and then for the more serious things, there are the high councils. Now verse 19 goes on to say, after the evidences are heard, the counselors, accuser and accused have spoken. Which by the way, the, the accused gets to speak. Verse 18 says, Then the president of the council, that's the stake president, shall give a decision according to the understanding which he shall have of the case, and call upon the 12 counselors to sanction the same by their vote. So after all the evidence has been heard, decision is made. If any of them discover an error later on they can retry the case. The verses go on to say, there can be a rehearing, et cetera. And so we want to make sure we get it right. So if it wasn't right the first first time, we can do it again. By the way, the accused can appeal and it can go up to the highest councils of the Church. These verses go on to say, and the highest council of the Church is the first presidency of the Church. And that's still the case today. That can happen. The Quorum of the twelve Apostles was not. It didn't exist yet here in this setting, but it will shortly in about a year. And then from then on, it can be appealed to the 12, and it can be appealed all the way to the first presidency. So let's talk about the outcome. So once a decision is made by the president of the High Council, Casey, what are the possible outcomes, the possible conclusions that can come out of a council like this? Like, what are the options?

[Casey]

There's a number of different outcomes that could possibly happen, but it basically boils down to about three things. One, they can hold the council and individuals remain in good standing with the church. And this happened a lot in the early church. I usually ask my classes, would it surprise you if I told you a president of the church was brought before a membership council? And they gasp, and then I say, who? And they usually say Brigham Young for some reason, but actually Joseph Smith appeared before a membership council because he'd been accused of unchristian like conduct by a guy named Sylvester Smith who accompanied him on Zion's camp and isn't related to him. When the council was over, both were basically found of engaging in a little unchristian like conduct. They were asked to forgive each other and they remained members and God good standing with the church. Another option is that formal membership restrictions can be placed on them. We used to use words like disfellowshipped to describe this. The 2020 handbook asked us to stop using the word disfellowship. I think mostly because it doesn't really accurately describe what we do. Disfellowshipment makes it sound like you can't be engaged in fellowship, but you can't come to church. When disfellowship members attend all the time. They might have restrictions on what callings they can hold, or they might be asked not to exercise priesthood or things like that, but they're not disfellowshipped from the church. They just have formal membership restrictions. And by the way, there's informal membership restrictions too. For Instance, sometimes a bishop will say to a person, don't take the sacrament for a little while. That's an informal restriction. A formal restriction happens with a council and there's a record kept of it. So again, if you've ever been asked by your bishop not to take the sacrament, that's not the same thing as this either. It was just you and the bishop working together. Then finally, and this is sort of the furthest option we have to employ their membership be withdrawn, which used to be described using a word like excommunication. But again, the word and the connotations of excommunication don't quite capture what we do. If a person's not dangerous, if they're excommunicated, they can still come to church, they can still be a part of a congregation, but it means that they're not a member of the church. And they're essentially released from the covenants they made when they became a member of the church. If you want to get into the nitty gritty, in the most serious cases when a person's been membership is withdrawn, the outcome usually centers around something extreme, like murder or plural marriage or incest. When a person is judged to be a danger to others or has committed a really serious sin, or when they don't demonstrate repentance or an attitude of repentance towards serious sins, they can have their membership withdrawn. And those who've had their membership withdrawn can be considered for baptism and readmission of the church after one year, after a church membership council is met to consider their repentance. And again, this is one of the things that happens. Withdrawing a person's church membership isn't intended to be a punishment, but a measure to protect the vulnerable and to withdraw the expectations of sacred covenants from a person who's not able to keep them. In fact, if I may, the very first person I baptized on my mission was an excommunicated member, was a person who'd had their membership withdrawn. It had happened a number of years before. He was in a much better place. Bringing him back into the church was just an incredible and amazing experience for me as a young missionary. It was as pure and as wonderful wonderful as helping any person join the church. And he went on to serve in a number of capacities. Great, great person. And I'm honored to have played a part of bringing him back into the church.

[Scott]

I love it. So that's the upshot of section 102. There's a couple other things that maybe are of note. It goes on to talk about what if someone, it's a church member that's not within the stake boundaries, what do you do then? And then verses 30 through 32 are going to be added later once we get a quorum of the twelve Apostles, a traveling high council. Those verses talk about how the quorum of the 12 is distinct from the high council or the local, the standing high council, they are now a traveling council. Right. And then it makes this distinction. Verse 31, from the decision of the former, that is a local standing high council, there can be an appeal. But from the decision of the latter, the Quorum of the twelve traveling high council, there cannot. The latter can only be called in question by the general authorities of the church in case of transgression. So it now puts a hierarchy right between the quorum of the 12's decisions and those of the local high council, which today that seems like a no brainer to us. Obviously the 12 would trump a local stake high council. But in this day, all those details are being worked out, which we're watching that kind of play out here in real time.

[Casey]

That's something that we sometimes overlook, is that the church is a lot smaller back then, like we're talking the entire church being about the size of the average stake in the church. And so your affiliation with the Prophet was probably much greater than it is today, just by the nature of things. And, and these councils sometimes mediated, well, smaller matters, I guess than they do now. They, they handled a lot of things and sort of acted as a community government in the early church.

[Scott]

So there you go. That's the content of section 102. All right, Casey, controversies with section 102. Let me ask it like this. Our church membership councils. Necessary. Necessary or could removing a person's membership do more harm than good?

[Casey]

It's tough to say. It can vary as much as individuals vary. Right. But the general idea that we hold membership councils and we sometimes remove someone's membership or restrict it I think is important in the church. And I brought up these controversies as we were talking about this section, partially because of an experience I had when I first became a religion professor. I went to the Society for Biblical Literature Conference and I was talking to a person from another church church there. And he raised the objection. He said, I don't like that you excommunicate people. And that totally surprised me. I would have thought he would have brought up, you guys have extra scripture, you guys, you know, a lot of stuff that other religions have concerns with us about. This one I didn't see coming. And his Reasoning was that that was harmful to the individual to excommunicate them from the church to remove their church membership. Whatever term we're using. This was a minister from a Protestant church and. And a good man, by the way. But I just sort of explained to him that our church operates differently, that one of the main differences and the reasons why we do this is that essentially almost every adult member of the church is an officer of the church. And officers of the church, any church, have a higher standard of behavior than congregants do. In his church, you'd have a priest or a minister that was over a congregation. Then everybody just kind of comes and goes. In our church, almost everybody's an officer. And the analogy I used was, hey, if the minister in your church was doing something inappropriate, you might have to take actions. You might have to remove their priesthood. You might have to fire them, essentially, because they have hired clergy. In our church, if a person is acting as an officer of the church and they do something inappropriate, we have to take steps there as well. And that can mean removing their church membership because everybody in the church is an unfortunate officer, essentially. And as we talked about before, and we don't want to exacerbate the point, a lot of harm has been done to trust in religious institutions because these institutions haven't acted when something inappropriate was happening. And so, yes, I recognize that having a person's church membership removed can be extremely difficult for them. And I'm not saying that we have a perfect record of it always being carried out in the right way, in the most sensitive way possible. We don't. But I'm glad that the system's there because, like, the reasons are given. It protects people that are innocent sometimes from being abused. It helps people repent, and it helps us have trust and faith in the integrity of the church. So, I mean, I'm okay with the idea that, you know, even though I'm not a bishop or a stake president right now, I am an officer of the church, and if I'm violating the church standards, I might need to be removed from my calling first, which is probably the first thing we do, and then maybe from my membership in the church, because as an officer of the church, there's a higher level of expectation for me. Now, there are people in the church that don't hold high offices, and generally we don't take action against them. Like, it's really rare to see a teenager be excommunicated or anything like that. But against people that hold positions of trust. Yeah, I think the System needs to be. Be there, even if it can sometimes cause harm for somebody. And when the harm happens, My experience, too, has been that the leaders of the church have tried as much as they can to limit the impact of that. Like, I remember being in one of these church membership councils, and it was one of the only times in the five years I served where we had to remove a person's church membership immediately after the decision was announced. The stake president said, but I want you to know that we still love you, we care about you, and we want to help you get through this. And there was no abandonment of the individual. There was no shunning. In fact, he kept meeting with the stake president and his bishop. I can't break it down by strict numbers, but most of the ones I went to, we weren't removing a person's church membership. We were bringing someone back into the church that had lost their church membership. And those meetings were beautiful and powerful. And some of the most special meetings I got to attend while I was serving in that capacity. So I came away absolutely convinced that this wasn't the Spanish Inquisition position. It wasn't meant to be cruel. It was a necessary thing because people sometimes engage in big transgressions, and membership in the church has to mean something. It has to mean something, or it doesn't really have a point.

[Scott]

Great answer, Casey. Love it.

[Casey]

Okay, should we talk consequences?

[Scott]

We've been talking about how this set the standard for councils in the church, particularly membership councils going forward, and it still is applied today. So in that sense, this has had great consequences throughout the church. I want to just tell the story of the very first time the principles in section 102 were applied. It happened actually on the 19th of February, Casey's. Two days after this High Council was formed, we get the very first case brought to the High Council. And it just makes me chuckle every time I read it. And here is what happened. Okay. It was the case of one brother Curtis Hodges. All right, this is in the meeting minutes. The witcher. So great. The accuser was a brother named Ezra Thayer. We've talked about him in the past. He brought the following charges against Brother Hodges. That in essence, when he preached, when Brother Hodges preached, he talked loudly and incoherently. And then when people tried to correct him, he insisted that his behavior was inspired by a good and proper spirit. But the truth was, his behavior was hurting the work of God. That's the accusation. Brother Hodges preaches too loudly. He starts talking incoherently as he preaches. So the council Convenes. Evidence was heard, and several people were brought to give evidence. They agreed that when Brother Hodges preaches, he totally yells so loudly that he cannot be understood. One person said that one time he was yelling so loudly that some neighbors were alarmed and they came out to see if someone was hurt. Another agreed and said that his preaching brings, quote, a damper on. On the meeting and is not edifying. One member of the council tried to speak on behalf of Brother Hodges. Right. There's that group that's supposed to, like, be the. The defense, if you will. And the. The meeting minutes say, quote, he could say but a few words.

[Casey]

Done. Done. I. I keep thinking like the law and order. Clang, clang.

[Scott]

So then at the end, Joseph Smith, right, The president is supposed to sum this up and then make a decision. So just Joseph Smith sums all the evidence up, and then according to the minute, says, quote, he gave his decision, which was that the charges had been fairly sustained by good witnesses. Also that Brother Hodges ought to have confessed when he was rebuked by Brother Thayer, that if he had the spirit of the Lord at the meetings when he hallowed, he must have abused it and grieved it away. And all the council agreed with that decision. Brother Hodges then rose and said, here's. Here's the tender part. I like this. Brother Hodges arose and said that he then said, saw his wrong, but he never saw it before, and he appeared to feel thankful that he saw it. He said he had learned more during this trial than he had since he came into the church. He confessed freely his error and said he would attend to overcoming that evil, the Lord being his helper. Casey, that is a unique challenge. I don't know that I have seen anyone struggle with the same challenge where they preach too loudly, but I love the tenderness that it ends with. He's like, you know what? You. You guys are right. I've never seen that before. I will work on getting better at that. So that was the very first church court or disciplinary council or membership council that was held in our church following section 102's principles. And it ended beautifully.

[Casey]

Yeah. And, I mean, that's a humorous example, right? But I understand that not everybody in the church has had the opportunity to see one of these councils, and that might raise suspicions. But all I can tell you is every time I participated in one, I have just come away with such amazing, immense respect for the local leaders that I worked with and for how kind and caring and Christ like they were. You wouldn't think that a church membership Council would be one of the most spiritual meetings you get to attend, but especially the ones when someone was coming back into the church. The spirit was strong in those meetings. And you just got this really, really profound feeling that the Savior loves people and loves when repentant sinners come back into the fold and make positive changes in their lives. Like that was such a testimony builder for me. So it's a section with minutes. But the things that it sets up and the way that people are handled in the church is so beautiful to me, and I'm so grateful for it. I know it's not perfect. I'm sorry if anybody out there feels like they've been hurt by this system. But I'm glad it's there because I want to be part of an organization that works to maintain its integrity, that strives to do what it says, to walk the walk and talk the talk.

[Scott]

Well said.

[Casey]

All right, so moving to section 103.

[Scott]

Our first of our four C's for this section. Casey, what is the context? What's going on behind section 103?

[Casey]

This is continuing the crisis that's happening in Missouri. Just to catch you up, you probably still remember, but remember In November of 1833, the saints in Jackson County, Missouri, were driven out of of their homes. And most of the Saints had to escape to Clay county, which is just to the north, where they were sort of struggling to find adequate shelter and sustenance before the winter came. Parley P. Pratt, who's there, describes this in vivid detail. He says it this way. He says hundreds of people were seen in every direction, some intense, some in the open air around their fires while the rain descended in torrents. Husbands were inquiring for their wives, wives for their husbands, parents for their for children, children for parents. The scene was indescribable and I am sure would have melted the hearts of any people on the earth except our blind oppressors and a blind and ignorant community. And Lyman White, who's also there, says, I saw 190 women and children driven 30 miles across the prairie with three decrepit men only in their company in the month of November on ground thinly crusted with sleet. And I could easily follow on their trail by the blood that flowed from their laceration. Feet on the stubble of the burnt prairie. So ugly scene, the Saints try to regroup. They hold a conference and they send Parley P. Pratt and Lyman White to Kirtland to inform church leadership of what's happened in Missouri. Joseph received section 103, the same day, the two men report on the crisis to the High Council in Kirtland. And during that High Council meeting, Parley P. Pratt and Lyman White asked how and by what means Zion was to be redeemed of our enemies.

[Scott]

And it's important background also to remember that Governor Daniel Duncan of Missouri had actually agreed to help the Saints get their lands back. And I think his offer helped shape the solution that formulates here. Like church leaders actually described Governor Daniel Duncan as, quote, willing to send a guard to conduct our families back to their possessions, but he is not authorized to direct a military force to be stationed for any length of time. So military escort back to their lands, yes, the governor could provide that. But a standing army in Jackson county to continue to protect them? No, that he could not provide. And Governor Duncan also said, quote, under the protection of this state sponsored guard, your people can, if they think proper, return to their homes in Jackson county and be protected in them during the progress of the trial trials in question, meaning legal trials against their aggressors. By which time he continues, facts will be developed upon which I can act more definitely. Close quote. So it sounds like he's saying my military escort can take you in while the trials are going on and we get all the evidence against your aggressors. But you know, when that's all done, like I gotta pull out. And so that plays in here. So I think that's a really important little piece of information I think is also swirling in the background here. Like the. They do have the backing of the governor, at least temporarily, for escort into Jackson County.

[Casey]

And the minutes of the meeting show that this is what it says. It says, brother Joseph arose and said that he was going to Zion to assist in redeeming it. Joseph calls for volunteers to go with him and around 30 or 40 of the people present offer to go. The council then nominates Joseph to serve as. Here's the wording in the minute. The commander in chief of the armies of Israel and the leader of those who volunteered to go and assist in the redemption of Zion. We don't really know if section 103 was given before, during or after the High Council meeting. Joseph Smith volunteered to travel to Zion. But this is essentially the call of what we today call Zion's camp.

[Scott]

And it seems like Joseph had the information that Governor Duncan was willing to escort the men. Otherwise, you know, his actions don't make a lot of sense. Right. So from the saint's perspective, once the governor's troops withdraw, they need a group to, to Protect themselves. Right. And so essentially, that is what Zion's camp is all about. Right? Let's go in and be the standing army to protect the Saints from further aggressions by our aggressors, by the Missourians there. And I think this is an important point, Kasey, because I think I grew up most of my life hearing about Zion's camp thinking that they were going to go into Jackson county, guns blazing, take down their enemies, like, overthrow them, and like, by military means. Means like redeem Zion. This little backstory with the governor pledging his support and help, and the Saints needing to form their own standing army, I think is a much better picture and a much more clear and accurate description of what's really happening. Boots on the ground here. So when they talk about going in and redeeming Zion, this is. This is what they mean. No intention here to fire shots and mow down their enemies or anything like that. Like, I don't know why that was in my head as a teenager or in a 20 something, but this backstory is, I think, really important.

[Casey]

They're going into peacekeepers, I guess, and not as avenging angels. But Joseph is also being influenced, I think, by section 101, which has that parable that talks about people going to Zion and breaking down the borders of the enemy. So there may have been some thoughts that, you know, we don't. We're not going to fight, but if it comes to a fight, we'll be ready for it.

[Scott]

So that's the context of section 103.

[Casey]

So let's dive into the content of section 100 all three.

[Scott]

So, verse one, here's what the Lord says. Verily I say unto you, my friends, behold, I will give unto you a revelation and commandment that you may know how to act in the discharge of your duties concerning the salvation and redemption of your brethren, who have been scattered on the land of Zion, being driven and smitten by the hands of mine enemies, on whom I will pour out my wrath without measure in mine own due time. For I have suffered them, meaning the Missourians, thus far, that they might fill up the measure of their iniquities, that their cup might be full, and that those who call themselves after my name might be chastened for a little season with a sore and grievous chastisement, because they did not hearken altogether unto the precepts and commandments which I gave unto them. So interesting. The Lord here is providing two reasons why the Saints in Jackson county were allowed, allowed to be persecuted. Do we Catch that. So first the Lord allowed the wicked to, he says, fill up the measure of their iniquities. Which by the way, this is not the first time this concept of the Lord waiting for his enemies to fill up the measure of their their own iniquity has happened like Recall in the Book of Mormon where Alma and Amulek are forced to watch the cold blooded murder of innocent men, women and children at the hands of the wicked. When Amulek actually asks Alma to use the power of God to end the bloodshed, Alma says, I can't. I'm concerned. Constrained by the Spirit, he then taught Alma the following Remember when he said, quote the Lord doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just, and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day. So that same principle is operative at this time in Missouri. The Lord said says the Saints have been allowed to be persecuted because the Lord says they didn't hearken altogether into the precepts and commandments which I gave them, and so they need to be chastened. His Word so the Lord here is simply emphasizing what he said in another revelation. Remember back in section 101, he said that the Saints had polluted their inheritances because of jarrings and contentions and envyings and strifes and lustful and covetous desires among them. But although the Saints in Jackson county were guilty of transgression, they were not cast off. They just needed chastening, he says. So the Lord is merciful and he has more for them to do. Now the primary purpose of section 103 is not to dwell on this, but to rally the rest of the Church to come and help the suffering Saints in Missouri. And that's where he goes next in this Revelation.

[Casey]

He starts talking directly to the Church. Verily I say unto you, this is verse 5 I have decreed a decree which my people shall realize, inasmuch as they hearken from this very hour unto the counsel which I, the Lord Lord their God, shall give unto them. Behold, they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour, and by hearkening to observe all the words which I, the Lord their God, shall speak unto them, they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of this world are subdued under my feet and the earth is given unto the saints to possess it forever and ever. But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of this world shall be prevail against them. For they were set to be a light to the world and to be the saviors of men. And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under feet. He's setting the conditions for the redemption of Zion, which is if they do what he tells them to do, they'll start to prevail. If not, they will fail. So even in this immense time of suffering, the Lord's extending his hand toward them. He says, if they'll hearkened, they're going to prevail against their enemies. And the Lord also emphasizes that he has higher expectations for the saints when he calls them a light of the world and the Saviors of men. Note that the saints are given the title Saviors with a lowercase S. They're not on the same level as the Savior capital S Jesus Christ. But the title Saviors is linked to the prophecy in the book of Obadiah and the Old Testament that Saviors shall come upon Mount Zion. That's verse 20 in Obadiah. This prophecy and the concept of the saints becoming saviors gains greater importance as the theology of the restoration, specifically the role of temple ordinances, is revealed to Joseph Smith. So the tribulation of the saints in Ohio and Missouri were difficult. They're soul rending. But they helped refine the saints and bring them closer towards being a people who could truly act as saviors on Mount Zion to the rest of the human race.

[Scott]

The Lord continues in verse 11 he says, but verily I say unto you, I have decreed that your brethren which have been scattered, shall return to the lands of their inheritances and shall build up the waste places of Zion. For after much tribulation, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, cometh the blessing. Behold, this is the blessing which I have promised after your tribulations and the tribulations of your brethren, your redemption and the redemption of your your brethren, even their restoration to the land of Zion to be established, no more to be thrown down. Nevertheless, here's the warning. If they pollute their inheritances, they shall be thrown down, for I will not spare them if they pollute their inheritances. Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power Therefore I will raise up unto my people a man who shall lead them, like as Moses led the children of Israel. For ye are the children of Israel and the seed of, of Abraham, and you must needs be led out of bondage by power and with a stretched out arm. And as your fathers were led at first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be. Therefore let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you, as I said unto your fathers, mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence. Because I say unto you, my angel shall go up before you, and also my presence. And in time ye shall possess the goodly land. So the Lord is embedding this squarely in the redemption narrative of the house of Israel, anciently with Moses from their Egyptian bondage. Right. Which is a very cool motif here. And notice that the Lord is putting conditional promises upon their redemption. Like what we're talking about here about the Lord promising to redeem Zion has actually caused a lot of people's faith to weaken in the prophet Joseph Smith, or to conclude even that Joseph Smith is a fallen prophet. In fact, David Whitmer, the beginning of his loss of confidence in the prophet Joseph Smith will come because Zion will not be redeemed. These beautiful promises the Lord is laying out here are not realized. And some have said that's evidence that Joseph Smith's a fallen prophet. Well, I would just humbly recommend that we look back at these verses and notice that the Lord is making them conditional. Right. Verse 14. If they pollute their inheritances, then they will be thrown down. So it's just interesting. We got to make sure we see the conditions here and notice that that was all built in. We know this is not going to work, Casey. This is the sad truth. We know from our perspective, they will not come in and redeem Zion, not like any of them thought. And we're going to lose it. We're going to lose Missouri and we're going to go to Nauvoo and end up in Utah. And like, we know how the story is going to go. Reading these passages is, on the one hand, inspiring. On the other hand, it's kind of painful because we know how it ends. But what adds to the pain for me is knowing that some people will lose their faith in the prophet because these prophecies are not not fulfilled. Again, I just say notice the conditional nature of the prophecy.

[Casey]

We know how the story turns out. So it can be difficult to go back in time and sort of do the work to say, well, did they know and what were they thinking would happen. And again, the question I was sitting here thinking while you were going through this was, what does it mean to redeem Zion? Like, does it mean they have to get Jackson county back? Because in a sense, you know, there's Latter Day Saints there now. There's a temple not too far away. It's technically in Clay County. But does that count as redemption in their mind? If we're putting ourselves in their mindset, it was getting the land that they owned back, which they don't, unfortunately, in that generation. But the Lord probably has a bigger picture and a broader idea of what Zion is than they do at this current moment. Let's pick it up. 21 all right. Verily I say unto you that my servant Joseph Smith Jr. Is the man who I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the Vineyard spake the parable which I have given unto you. Therefore let my servant Joseph Smith Jr say unto the strength of my house, my young men and the middle aged, gather yourselves together upon the land of Zion, upon the land which has been bought with the money that was consecrated unto me. And let all churches send up wise men with their moneys and purchase lands even as I have commanded them. And inasmuch as my enemies come against you to drive you from my goodly land which I have consecrated to be the land of Zion, even from your own lands, after these testimonies which have brought before me against them, ye shall curse them. And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies, and my presence shall be with you even in avenging me and my enemies unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. Let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake. For whoso layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again. And whoso is not willing to lay down his life for my sake is not my disciple. This plays into the idea Idea of what does he mean when he says Zion is going to be redeemed by power? That reference he makes back in verse 15. But you could read this two ways. One, it's going to be redeemed by power in the Old Testament sense, and that we're going to go in and lay waste to our enemies. But it seems also, if you put this in the context of the entire Doctrine and Covenants, that violence is probably not what he's calling for. A quick review of the Revelations and the Doctrine, Doctrine and Covenants shows that the saints were continually instructed to purchase the lands at Zion and obtain the land through peaceful and legal means. And when I say throughout the Doctrine and Covenants, this instruction is given in section 42, in section 45, in section 48, in section 57, in section 58, in section 63, in section 101, in section 105, that they're going to do this peacefully. It seems like they may have missed this message initially, but that the Lord is telling them they shouldn't go in there with violence in their hearts and the intent that they're going to take it back through force that buy power might mean something different.

[Scott]

Yeah. And there it is again in verse 22, the land which I have bought with money, that's been consecrated. Verse 23, Let all the churches send up wise men with their money and purchase the lands. And then you get the standing army idea again. This is what I feel like I missed for decades of my life. Verse 24, Inasmuch as my enemies come against you to drive you from my goodly land, well then you should curse your enemies then, right? And the Lord says, I'll avenge you of my enemies. But the idea is that they are positioned there in the land. They didn't come in guns ablazing, they just went and possessed the land that they had already purchased with their money. And if their enemies come again against you, then you are justified in self defense and I will curse your enemies, enemies, etc. This kind of paints a different picture, more peaceful picture as you're emphasizing than sometimes it's depicted.

[Casey]

Again, they're coming as peacekeepers, not warriors, with the Lord saying, if there is to be a fight, I will fight. And that's sort of what happens actually. Like maybe we're jumping ahead in the story a little bit, but the story that gets told mainly about Zion's Camp. And maybe this is where you got the idea that Zion's camp was going in guns blazing is the story of the Battle of Fish Fishing River. What happens? The most significant conflict of the Zion's Camp expedition happens at Fishing river, which is just about 10 miles away from the Saints of Missouri. As the members of Zion's camp pitched their tents, five men rode into the camp. This is the way the story is told. The visitors waved their weapons and they announced that more than 300 men were coming to destroy the Saints. Zion's camp is about 200 men, give or take a few. So alarmed by this visit, Joseph Smith post guards and the area. And one member of the camp actually begged Joseph to attack the mob first. Instead, Joseph Smith stands up and this is one of the Coolest moments. And I can't help but picture the seminary video that shows this. But Joseph Smith says, stand still and see the salvation of God.

[Scott]

Which, by the way, is exactly the words that Moses spoke when Pharaoh's army was coming down to destroy them and their backs were against. Against the Red Sea. He literally says that, stand still and see the salvation of God. And we know what happens in the Moses story. So I can't help but to shake this metaphor, this embedding in the narrative of the bondage of Israel in Egypt. And Joseph is playing the role of Moses right here, even saying that phrase, which is so cool.

[Casey]

Yeah, and I'm glad you brought up that example, because in the Moses and the Red Sea example, the Israelites don't fight. They follow the Savior's instructions, and the Savior engages with the enemy, which is the same thing happens here. So Nathan Baldwin, who's a member of the camp, recalled it this way. He said a small black cloud appeared in the west and increased in size until shortly the whole blue arch was draped in black, presenting a vengeful appearance. While the rain descended in torrents, the winds bellowed, and such vivid flashes of lightning and such peals of thunder are seldom seen and heard. So a rainstorm of almost overwhelming fury just comes out of nowhere, bursts upon the camp. It actually drives the members of Zion's camp from their tents in search of better shelter. A lot of them wind up huddling in a church that's nearby. And after they huddle inside the building, Joseph Smith comes in, shakes the water from his hat, looks around, and exclaims with some exuberance, boys, there is some meaning to this. God is in this storm. So awesome. I'm sorry. As the storm continues to rage, the men remain huddled in the church, singing hymns throughout the night. Nathan Baldwin later says the Lord had previously said he would fight the battles of the Saints, and it seemed as though the mandate had gone forth from his presence to ply the artillery of heaven in defense of his servants. When they emerge in the morning and the storm's over, the camp members found that their belongings were scattered, but nothing was really damaged beyond repair. In addition, the river that separated them from their enemies had risen dramatically overnight, cutting them off from a possible attack. In fact, in later history, Joseph Smith recalls that their enemies, these are his words, declared that if that was the way God fought for the Mormons, they might as well go about their business. So the model isn't that they're going to fight. The model is they're going to present themselves as representative of God. And if it comes to violence, God is going to fight for them. That's what happens with Moses, and that's what happens with Joseph Smith. The parallels, like you said here, are really compelling.

[Scott]

Yeah, like verse 25 Again, whomsoever ye curse, I will curse. And ye shall avenge me of mine enemies, and my presence shall be with you even in avenging me of mine enemies. What does it mean to avenge the Lord of his enemies like? Well, it could look a lot of different ways, but the Lord seems to be saying, I got you, I will help you fight, and I will fight your battles. I think that's a phrase he said in previous revelations. And so one cool example of how played out right here. Okay, now let's talk about recruiting. Verse 29 begins the recruitment commandments. So here's what the Lord says. It is my will that my servant Sidney Rigdon shall lift up his voice in the congregations in the Eastern countries, meaning Eastern United States, in preparing the churches to keep the commandments which I have given unto them concerning the restoration and redemption of Zion. Verse 30. It's my will that my servant Parley P. Pratt and my servant Lyman White should not return to the land land of their brethren until they have obtained companies to go up unto the land of Zion by tens or by twenties, or by fifties, or by a hundred, until they have obtained to the number of 500 of the strength of mine house. Behold, this is my will. Ask and ye shall receive. But then he says, with a twinge of sadness, I read it. But men do not always do my will. Therefore, if you cannot obtain 500, seek diligently that per adventure you may obtain, obtain 300. And if you cannot obtain 300, seek diligently that per adventure you May obtain 100. But verily I say unto you a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall not go up unto the land of Zion until you've obtained a hundred of the strength of my house to go up with you unto the land of Zion. So, minimum requirement, a hundred. Possible five hundred. But since not everyone in the church always does what the Lord wants, we might not get 500. He says, but let's not go with anything less than 100. Therefore, verse 35, as I said unto you, ask and ye shall receive. Pray earnestly that peradventure, my servant Joseph Smith Jr. May go with you and preside in the midst of my people and organize my kingdom upon the consecrated land and establish the church of Zion upon the laws and commandments which have been and which shall be given unto you. And then verse 36 is like this beautiful verse that you could just print it out, put it on your wall. You can make it your screensaver. It's just so good. It just says, all victory and glory is brought to pass and unto you through your diligence, faithfulness, and prayers of faith. So good. And then he makes some companionship assignments for the recruiting mission, verse 37, 38, 39, and 40, saying that they are to go out in these companionships which he's designated in obtaining the fulfillment of these commandments which I have given unto you, and leave the residue in my hands. Even so. Amen. So the recruiting mission for Zion, Zion's camp, is to begin with this Revelation.

[Casey]

Yeah, the plan to redeem Zion is launched here, and it's going to have huge consequences, not just for Zion, but.

[Scott]

For the church in general in some unexpected ways, as we'll see. Okay, Casey, controversies with section 103. Here's a topic we've brought up again and again, and we've already mentioned it in this revelation already, but let's just put a fine point on this. Was Zion's camp intended to use violence to bring the Saints back to their homes in Missouri? And the broader question that's kind of embedded in is, is the Lord okay with violence, His Saints ever engaging in violence against their enemies?

[Casey]

Both you and I grew up in the church, and, you know, seminary grads went to institute, went to one of the BYU's. Right. And it seems like both of us gained that. That impression. And maybe it's because there's a really awesome seminary video that describes Zayan's camp and kind of uses, like, martial music. Like, I think they stole the soundtrack from the Civil War movie Glory to the Trumpet.

[Scott]

That music is so good. I can still hear it.

[Casey]

It's so good. And I think that that video has so shaped our perception of what Zion camp is that we haven't read the Revelations really closely. Now, that said, it seems like some of the early Saints thought that violence was the method they were going to use to redeem Zion's camp. And maybe some of it just comes from this sort of, I don't know, immature tendency to see violence as awesome and not destructive. It's the whole tendency where, you know, your favorite passage of the Book of Mormon is when coriantumr chops off the head of shiz or something like that. There's a level of maturity here, right, where you're sometimes attracted to the gospel because it's awesome and it's powerful and you don't see the Savior as the Prince of Peace and you don't take seriously how concerned he is with it. Now, when it comes to the question of is the Lord okay with using violence, it seems like, yes, in some cases. You know, we can't discount the entire Old Testament or the sometimes frightening prophecies about how the world would be cleansed in the last days, but it seems like he is the person who metes out that retribution. It's difficult to find examples where he asks people to engage in violence deliberately when it's not defensive, when it's not done for some kind of protective reason. Does that make sense? Am I missing it? Are there examples? I guess there's like the Book of Joshua and stuff like that. What do you think?

[Scott]

Last week we went through a delay. Lord said in section 98, when he talks about defensive measures, right, when your enemy comes against you once and you forgive him, you'll be blessed. When he comes against you twice and you don't react, but you forgive him, you'll be blessed even more. He goes three times before he says, all right, after three times, like, if you need to do something in defense of your family, especially if they're coming after your life, then you're justified. And then Joseph Smith wrote a letter to the saint saying, remember, defensive action only. Defensive action, never be the aggressors, I think was his phrase. Right. So there's always that posture of non aggressive, yes, protect your loved ones, but it's in a non aggressive way. And as Ian's camp specifically, as we've mentioned several times, just to go be that standing army, not the aggressors. Just come and protect. Go be the protectors in case future aggression should come. Then you can protect the saints in Zion. So, yeah, it's a yes, yes, but with a lot of explanation, isn't it?

[Casey]

I guess you can find the passage here and there where the Lord commands, say, especially the ancient Israelites to go and engage in violence, but it seems like that's the exception, not the rule. Especially in the Book of Mormon and in the Doctrine and Covenants in Restoration, Scripture is commanding them to try and resolve things through peaceful means, to withdraw, to use money to purchase land, hands and try and figure out ways to resolve it without violence happening. Because at a certain stage, especially, you know, in my experience as a church leader, I had to work with some people that had, you know, fought in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. And man, it's tough, it's tough. It's corrosive to a person's soul. And again, I'm not going to judge the ancient Israelites in the situation they were in. The Book of Mormon says, you know, that the people in the land of Canaan were engaged in some pretty serious sins. And so there may have been some strong measures required to remediate that. But it seems like the Lord's message on the whole has been towards peace and nonviolence. And when you read closely section 105, he's saying, you purchase the land. Purchase the land. If that doesn't work, I'll avenge you. I'll carry out the retribution. But it doesn't seem like he's instructing them to engage in violence.

[Scott]

And we got to remember, this is how the Lord counsels his Saints in the United States of America with a constitution and laws the way that we have it now that allow for purchasing land and allow for this maybe, hopefully peaceful resolution if things don't escalate like there are legal things in place to help you. Let's not judge the ancients as if they lived in America with the United States Constitution. Right. Like that. Context. Right. Basic civilization, civil and religious liberties we take for granted today were not there. That's a pretty relatively modern development, not widely codified or observed by those before the 18th, 19th, 20th century.

[Casey]

That's a really excellent point. The times in the Old Testament when they're asked to engage in violence, there's not a legal means of obtaining what they want. And again, there's just a huge cultural gap there too. Right.

[Scott]

So what we're reading in the Doctrine and Covenants is how the Lord deals with saints who are in these kinds of situations in a political environment and context where they can appeal to government leaders, where they can purchase land and then make legal cases against those who are trying to steal their stuff. Context, context. Have we ever harped on context, Casey? Are we big on context? Yeah, I think we are. I think we are. And this is a big one to keep in. Keep in mind as you navigate that question. Question about violence, for sure.

[Casey]

All right, let's talk consequences of section 103.

[Scott]

So in response to Governor Duncan's offer to escort the Saints back to their homes in Jackson county, and now with Section 103 as authorization to do so, church leaders decided to organize their standing army and to march to miss. So just two days after Parley P. Pratt and Lyman White came in to report on Missouri, and two days after Section 103 was received, they began to recruit volunteers to go to Missouri. Parley leaves, Lyman leaves these different companionships the Lord had set up there. They begin to go out in the following weeks. Orson Pratt, Orson Hyde, Hyrum Smith, Frederick G. Williams, they all join in these recruiting efforts. Parley will later know in his history quote, Our mission resulted in the assemblage of about 200 men at Kirtland with teams, baggage, provisions, arms, etc, for a march of 1000 miles. He says, for the purpose of carrying some supplies to the afflicted and persecuted saints in Missouri and to reinforce and strengthen them. Notice his explanation of the reason here. And if possible, to influence the governor of the state to call out sufficient additional force to cooperate in restoring them to their rights. This little army, he says, was led by president Joseph Smith in person. As you mentioned today, we like to call this group Zion's camp. But in Joseph Smith's time, this little group was referred to as the camp of Israel. Again, a reference to the Moses story, right. This is the camp of Israel. And in a later letter that they wrote to the governor, church leaders in Missouri told the governor what the they had heard from church leaders in Kirtland. Here's what they said. We have deemed it expedient to inform your excellency, referring to the governor that way, that we have received communications from our friends at the east church leaders in Ohio informing us that a number of brethren, perhaps 2 or 300, would come to Jackson county in the course of the ensuing season. And we are satisfied that when the Jackson mob get the intelligence that a large number of our people are about to remove into the that county, they will raise a great hue and cry and circulate many bugbears or rumors through the medium of their favorite press. But we think your excellency is well aware that our object is purely to defend ourselves and our possessions against another unparalleled attack from that mob. Inasmuch as the executive of this state cannot keep a military force to protect our people in that county without transcending his powers. As you've said, we want therefore the privilege of defending ourselves and the constitution of our country while God is willing that we should live on this earth. They said, close quote. So that's their stated motivations here. This is what's happening.

[Casey]

And the documents are so helpful here because it becomes abundantly clear in their communication to the governor, in their communications amongst themselves that violence isn't the aim here. They're trying as hard as they can to restore their homes and lands people peacefully, but in order for it to happen peacefully, they're following the governor's instructions, and he basically told them that there would need to be an accompanying force to keep the peace. So the other result is. Section 103 instructs them to recruit. In verse 30, the Lord instructed church leaders that they could recruit as many as 500 men for the expedition to Zion. But in the end, Zion's camp numbers about 205 men and approximately 20, 25 women and children. And we don't talk a lot about the women and children. We're going to have Matt Godfrey on in a couple days, and he'll give us some background on that, too. So on May 3, 1834, Joseph Smith led the main party from Kirtland and a smaller group left from Michigan. On May 5, under the leadership of Lyman White and Hyrum Smith, Joseph Smith leaves Kirtland having faith in the Lord and the charge given to him to lead the camp. But he also worries about the size of the group. In fact, a month into the expedition, he writes to Emma. He says, all the camp is in as good a situation as could be expected, but our numbers and means are altogether too small for the accomplishment of such a great enterprise. He's still maintaining hope for a miracle that can redeem Zion. He said, we believe the hand of the Lord is in it. Writing to Emma, now is the time for the church abroad to come to Zion. It is our prayer day and night that God will open the heart of the churches to pour in men and means to assist us for the redemption and upbuilding of Zion. So right there, his doubts and his faith are contrasted in the same letter where he's saying, I don't know if we have enough people to carry this out, but I have faith that the Lord will open the doors. And this is a classic example of them expecting one thing. But the Lord may be having something different in mind, as we'll explain when we get to section 1, 105, which is received when they get to Missouri.

[Scott]

There you go. There's the consequences of section 103. Well done, Casey. Section 102 and 103 quite different sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. One about how to put together a high council so that you can deal with the difficulties that happen in the church from time to time. And another about recruiting a group to go and help redeem Zion. Both really important sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. Very, very different. So. So we'll land episode one here this week. How about that? And then catch us again in episode two, where we will cover sections 104 and 105 of the doctrine and Covenants. Yeah.

[Casey]

So join us again for the thrilling conclusion of the story of Zion's Camp, which we'll cover in the second episode.

[Scott]

And by the way, Casey, you teased that we're also going to have on brother Matt Godfrey to talk a lot about Zion's Camp. Way more detail than you and I shared. That's exciting, too. So look for that. That as well this week.

[Casey]

So three parts this week. We're really kind of putting it all out there, but this is one of the most important stories of the early Restoration.

[Scott]

Okay, so we'll see you in our next episode.

[Casey]

Okay, see you in the next one.