155 - Was Zions Camp a Success or Failure? With Matt Godfrey - E38C September 15-21

Summary

Church History Matters Podcast – Episode 155:

Was Zion’s Camp a Success or Failure? With Matt Godfrey

Podcast: Church History Matters
Host: Scripture Central (Scott & Casey)
Guest: Matt Godfrey (Senior Managing Historian, Church History Department)
Date: September 11, 2025
Episode theme: An in-depth exploration of Zion’s Camp (1834) in Latter-day Saint history, examining whether the expedition was a success or failure, its misunderstood aspects, firsthand accounts, and its long-term impact on church leadership.

---

Overview of Episode

This episode tackles the enduring question: Was Zion’s Camp a failure or a success? Hosts Scott and Casey are joined by Church historian Matt Godfrey for a rich, source-based discussion. The episode moves beyond simplistic "success or failure" terms to analyze the expedition’s complexities, personal accounts, lasting influence, and the spiritual as well as organizational lessons learned.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: What Was Zion's Camp? (06:12–13:38)

• Misunderstood Purpose:
  Many Latter-day Saints and even scholars misinterpret Zion’s Camp as an offensive military expedition. In reality, Joseph Smith saw it as a protective force intended to escort Saints back into Jackson County and provide ongoing security. (08:17)

• Governor Dunklin’s Role:
  The Latter-day Saints hoped Missouri Governor Dunklin would call out the state militia to help them reclaim their land. However, his intentions and motives remain unclear in the historical record, with possible factors including political concerns, personal prejudice, and the ongoing local negotiations. (08:33–10:17)

"But that really wasn't what Joseph Smith had in mind from the beginning of Zion's camp. He saw the members of Zion's camp as serving more as a protective force for the Latter Day Saints." – Matt Godfrey [08:05]

2. Recruitment, Sacrifice, and Women’s Contributions (14:04–22:16)

• Difficult Recruitment:
  God’s revelation called for 500 men; only about 120 initially set out, with numbers eventually growing to about 230—far below the original intent. Reasons include the significant sacrifice required: time, money, and particularly the timing during critical farming months. (14:20)

"It was kind of a hard thing that the Lord was asking them to do. ... It was easier to say no than to say yes." – Matt Godfrey [15:34]

• Women in Zion’s Camp:
  About 12–13 women participated, usually accompanying their husbands and handling traditional domestic tasks. Some, like Nancy and Eunice Holbrook, insisted on marching the entire way, and some, like Polly Vos and Sophia Howe, contributed financially. (17:12–21:55)

“They wanted to be just as much of a part of the camp as the men were. … I think one other interesting aspect about the women is there were also a few women who donated money for Zion's Camp.” – Matt Godfrey [18:48]

3. Organization, Leadership, and Legacy (25:06–29:40)

• Key Figures:
  Zion’s Camp proved to be a “who’s who” of early LDS leadership. Eight of the original Twelve Apostles and all initial Seventy had been on Zion’s Camp. (25:32)
• Leadership Pipeline:
  The expedition gave Joseph Smith a chance to observe individuals’ faith, character, and leadership in adversity, directly informing subsequent appointments to leadership roles. (27:13)

“He was able to spend a lot of time with individual people. ... So I'm sure as Joseph was doing that, he was starting to get an idea in his mind of who some of the future leaders in the church would be and some of the roles that they might play.” – Matt Godfrey [27:13]

4. Cholera Outbreak and Adversity (29:40–51:29)

• Cholera Epidemic:
  Near the expedition’s end, a devastating cholera epidemic struck, killing 13 members. Participants and Joseph Smith himself saw this as divine chastisement for internal dissension and murmuring, reflecting a worldview that interpreted adversity as spiritual correction. (49:07–51:29)

5. Narratives, Memories & Myths (30:08–33:95)

• Scripture and Folklore:
  The seminary video depiction of Zion's Camp is critiqued for dramatization and inaccuracies (e.g., Joseph Smith miraculously digging a well). Many details come from much later recollections, which can blur facts. (30:31–33:95)
• Authenticating the Record:
  Matt Godfrey stresses that while some drama is true, others are either less certain or simply not as Joseph-focused as folklore suggests (like digging for water or the “rancid ham” story).

6. Planning and Criticisms of Joseph Smith’s Leadership (33:57–36:20)

• Resource Limits and Support:
  Joseph Smith had limited resources, experience, and church-wide financial support. Critiques about poor planning often overlook these obstacles and the general lack of backing from broader membership. (34:19)

“He doesn't have any experience organizing anything like that. He's kind of doing the best that he could do at the time.” – Matt Godfrey [34:19]

7. Fishing River Storm: Miracle or Natural Cause? (36:20–38:52)

• Miraculous Rescue:
  When threatened by a mob, the camp was saved by a sudden, intense storm, widely interpreted at the time as an act of divine intervention. Only one contemporary source documents the storm; later accounts add miraculous details.

“...there's this gigantic storm that springs up... it causes the river to rise... so there's no attack that night because of the storm.” – Matt Godfrey [36:37]

8. Was Zion’s Camp a Success or Failure? (38:52–53:20)

Competing Perspectives:

• Success through Spiritual Growth (Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff):
  Many participants saw Zion’s Camp as a transformative, faith-building experience—an opportunity to know God and Joseph Smith, preparing them for leadership.
• Failure to Redeem Zion (David Whitmer, Critics):
  Some, like David Whitmer, saw the failure to reclaim land as evidence against Joseph Smith’s prophetic role.

“The vast majority of people who left accounts of their time on Zion's camp did not see Zion's camp as a failure. ... They focused instead on what did I learn from this expedition.” – Matt Godfrey [39:55]

“If you're seeing Zion's camp as something that was supposed to help the Saints get their land back ... then it was a failure. ... But ... on a very personal level ... that's where I truly came to know God.” – Matt Godfrey [41:16]

• Parallel to Handcart Companies:
  Like the handcart narrative, whether Zion’s Camp was a disaster or a faith-affirming experience depends on the perspective and interpretation of those who lived it. (43:11)

9. Delayed Redemption and Theological Questions (51:29–57:56)

• Theological Complexity:
  The Lord’s promises to redeem Zion appear unfulfilled, leading to doubts among some believers and branches that later rejected Joseph Smith’s continued leadership.

“How long can we postpone God's will? ... It seems like it was because of the failures of humans that Zion is not redeemed.” – Scott [53:20]

• God’s Timing and Expectations:
  Matt Godfrey shares personal insights about how God’s timetable and definition of “success” may differ from our expectations, encouraging faith in the face of apparent setbacks.

“Maybe my expectation was wrong and the Lord's definition of success was different from how I was defining it.” – Matt Godfrey [56:36]

10. Long-Term Impact on Church Leadership (57:56–59:06)

• Enduring Leadership Model:
  Zion’s Camp’s greatest legacy is the pipeline it established for future church leadership, shaping both individuals’ spiritual development and the institutional structure of the church well into the 20th century.

“I think definitely the leadership ... I don't think it's any coincidence that after Zion's Camp, that's when you get the 12 apostles and the 71st called.” – Matt Godfrey [58:08]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Zion’s Camp as a success:

  “I learned that God really was with me, that he was with this camp, that he is involved in my life, that he cares about me, that he wants me to be safe and protected. And I saw evidence after evidence of this on Zion's Camp.” – Matt Godfrey [41:37]

• On leadership observation:

  “As Joseph was doing that, he was starting to get an idea in his mind of who some of the future leaders in the church would be and kind of some of the roles that they might play.” – Matt Godfrey [27:13]

• On interpreting adversity:

  “I think they really did see God as a being who could be merciful but could also inflict punishment and chastisement when he needed to. ... I think that's kind of the mindset they got from the Book of Mormon, from the Bible, from these books of Scripture.” – Matt Godfrey [50:22]

• On redefining success:

  “It is something that I think can plague a lot of people ... where they might think that God's told them that something's going to happen and then it doesn't happen. ... And then they wonder, well, you know, was I really feeling the spirit? Or why didn't it happen?” – Matt Godfrey [53:20]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Zion’s Camp Background and Purpose: 06:12–13:38
• Recruitment Sacrifices & Women’s Role: 14:04–22:16
• Finances & Organization: 22:16–25:06
• Participants and Leadership: 25:06–29:40
• Cholera Outbreak: 49:07–51:29
• Seminary Video Accuracy: 30:08–33:95
• Evaluating Zion's Camp: Success or Failure: 38:52–43:30
• Governor Dunklin’s Role: 43:30–47:47
• Long-Term Consequences: 57:56–59:06

---

Tone and Style

The discussion is respectful, approachable, and deeply engaged with historical evidence, while also allowing for devotional reflection and humor. The hosts balance insider insights and personal anecdotes with clear explanations—making the episode both accessible and enriching for listeners at any level.

---

Concluding Reflection

Matt Godfrey closes by sharing how studying church history—warts and all—has increased his charity both for historical figures and himself, providing hope that God can work through imperfect people, in any era:

“When you study Joseph Smith or you study the lives of these other early ... saints, they're not perfect. ... But they really are doing the best they can ... And even with their weaknesses and their imperfections, the Lord's able to do a great work in them. And so that's given me a lot more hope that with my many weaknesses and imperfections, that maybe the Lord ... can still do some good things through me.” – Matt Godfrey [59:48]

---

For further reading, Matt Godfrey’s work on Zion’s Camp can be found in both scholarly and free online resources, including Gospel Library and BYU Studies.

Transcript

[A]

Let's get to the hardest question, I think in my mind. Was Zion's Camp a failure or was it a success?

[B]

The vast majority of people who left accounts of their time on Zion's Camp did not see Zion's Camp as a failure. And they didn't focus on this notion of did we get the lands back or not. They focused instead on what did I learn from this expedition.

[C]

A lot of it is what they chose to gain from the experience.

[B]

Maybe my expectation was wrong and the Lord's definition of success was different from how I was defining it.

[A]

Hello, Casey.

[C]

Hello, Scott.

[A]

Welcome to our special edition. What do we call these? The Voices of the Restoration.

[C]

Voices of the Restoration. And it feels like we've had kind of a drought. We haven't done one since section 76. There's a lot coming up with the Kirtland Temple and Nauvoo and a bunch of important topics. And we are fortunate today to have here with us probably the. Well, one of the leading experts for sure on Zion's Camp, Matthew Godfrey. So say hi, Matt.

[B]

Hello. It's great to be here. Happy to be with you and excited to talk a little bit about Zion's Camp today.

[C]

You and I were talking, but if you Google Zion's Camp, your name comes up quite a bit. You've done articles and chapters, and there's even a book. The book is called Zion's Camp.

[B]

Yeah, Zion's Camp, March of Faith.

[C]

And you were the general editor. You wrote a lot of the material in the book. But who were some of the other contributors?

[B]

Brent Rogers wrote an article in there, as did Alex Baugh and Andrea Radke. Moss also contributed. It's a fun book. I think it tells the story of Zion's Camp.

[C]

Well, very good. So you can go and buy the book, but there's also a lot of stuff that's free. Like, I think you wrote your. Was it your master's or your PhD on Zion's camp?

[B]

No, not on Zion's Camp. So I did edit. I was the lead historian on Documents Volume four and the Joseph SM Papers that includes all the Zion's Camp documents. And then I wrote a couple of articles that were published in BYU Studies on Zion's Camp after that.

[A]

Suffice it to say we have literally, like, one of the leading experts on Earth on the topic of Zion's Camp with us. And so buckle up. This is going to be a fun ride. We want to talk about details that a lot of us miss. And we especially want to make sure we dig into some of the controversies with Zion's Camp, such as? I mean, there's different people on different sides of this question. Was Zion's Camp a success or of failure? So much to talk about. We're so excited to have you with us.

[C]

Well, let me share a short bio and then we'll just dive in. Matthew Godfrey is a senior managing historian in the Church history department. From 2013 to 2021, he was the managing historian of the Joseph Smith Papers. He also served as the lead historian on Documents, Volume four, which includes documents pertaining to Zion's Camp. He's the author of several books, including the recently published God Knows Getting Real about Spiritual Challenges and a book called no Brother Jose Perspectives on Joseph Smith's Life and Character in his spare time. Matt loves 80s alternative music, sports and reading, in that order. And he's married to Carrie Huber and has four wonderful children. And I was a teacher of one of your children, and I can attest that she's pretty wonderful. So good job. That's the most important thing, is how your family's doing.

[B]

That's right. Thank you.

[C]

Well, Matt, tell us a little bit about your background as a historian and how you got into this. And in particular, you mentioned you were an editor on a volume of the Joseph Smith PA Includes a lot of documents on Zion's Camp. Just tell us about your path towards becoming really focused on this particular episode in church history.

[B]

So I have a PhD in history that I got from Washington State University many, many years ago. When I got done with my PhD, I actually worked for about eight and a half years up in Missoula, Montana. I was a historical consultant up there with a private firm. We did a lot of work for the federal government when they were getting sued over issues that had a historical background. So that that was kind of fun to work on. And then in 2010, I was hired on on the Joseph Smith Papers, and so we moved to Utah and I began working on that project and was lucky enough to be able to work on, I think, five different volumes in the document series, one of which, as we've mentioned, is documents, volume four, covering the years, I think it's April of 1834 through September of 1835. So right, right in the middle of what we're working on here. Before I came to the Joseph Smith Papers, my focus was on sugar beets and the beet sugar industry in Utah.

[C]

Idaho, which is way more interesting than it sounds like the history of the I've got your book on the Utah Idaho Sugar Company and It's interesting stuff that.

[B]

No one's going to believe you, Casey, when you say that.

[C]

No, it really is good. But, yes, that's one of the most delightful things about you is, you know, your sugar beets.

[B]

I do, I do, yeah.

[A]

In your book, do you have anything behind why the Jordan High School mascot is a Beat Digger? I mean, is that in. Is that in your bio? Not your bio.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Is that in your book?

[B]

You know, I do mention in the book about Jordan High School being the Beat Diggers because it shows just how influential the industry was in Utah and Idaho for so many years.

[C]

I taught at Jordan High, and in the opening assembly every year, the student body officers would cut open and eat a sugar beet. I've lived the history. I feel like, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't in the past. For me, it was very, very much the present.

[B]

You know, they. They ate sugar beets on Science camp. Actually, no, they really didn't. But that was my primary background before I came on the Joseph Smith papers. But then I was able to kind of immerse myself with Joseph Smith, with the history of the church. When we did Documents, Volume four, I was kind of fascinated by the Zion's Camp expedition and just kind of the. The whole story behind it. And so that's what kind of piqued my. And led me to do some. Some further research and writing on it.

[A]

Love it. Let's talk Zion's Camp. So right out the shoot here, Matt, what do we need to know about the historical background of Zion's Camp? And maybe more specifically, like, what do most people miss when we talk about the historical background of Zion's Camp? Like, what should we know for sure?

[B]

Great question. You know, some of it you've. You've covered already on your podcast. You have the whole persecutions that occur in Jackson County, Missouri, when the Saints are kicked out. That's. That's the primary motivation for Zion's Camp, is to help those Saints there. For me, I think sometimes the purpose of Zion's Camp is sometimes misunderstood by church members and by scholars as well. And I can understand why, because when you read section 101 in the doctrine and Covenants with the parable of the nobleman whose lands overrun by his enemies, he tells the servant to call up the strength of the Lord's house to go and redeem his land. And if you read that and then you read some of the language that's in section 103, it really does seem like the Lord wants them to form this Military expedition that's going to march into Jackson county and retake the land that the Saints had lost. But that really wasn't what Joseph Smith had in mind from the beginning of Zion's camp. He saw the members of Zion's camp as serving more as a protective force for the Latter Day Saints. So the idea was that they would get people to march to Missouri. When they got to Missouri, they would talk to Governor Daniel Dunklin, and they would ask him to call out the state militia. And the state militia would then escort the Saints back to their lands in Jackson County. And then once the militia had stood down, then the members of Zion's camp would remain in Jackson county to protect the Saints from being driven off their lands again. So it was really seen as more of a defensive thing rather than an offensive thing. And I think that's something that we do misunderstand quite a bit when we're talking about Zion's camp.

[A]

And this is something Governor Dunclan had signed off on. Right. He had made the suggestion that his militia would escort the Saints back in, didn't he? And then the only problem was they couldn't keep their forces there, so the Saints would have to protect themselves somehow. Right?

[B]

Yeah. They had had communications with Governor Dunklan's administration, some of the officials in it, back in around February of 1834, there was going to be a trial of people who had, you know, accused of kicking the Saints out of Jackson County. But the problem was not a lot of Latter Day Saints were interested in going back into Jackson county at that time and actually testifying in the trial. And so Governor Dunklund had intimated that he'd be willing to call up the militia to escort some of these witnesses into the county for that trial. Nobody really kind of took him up on the. On the offer, but that offer was there. And so based on that and based on some other communications with officials, Joseph Smith did believe that Governor Dunklan was willing to call up the militia if the Saints got there. And it gets kind of confused as to why Governor Dunklam didn't call up the militia. There's some indication that he perhaps was wanting to see how negotiations were going to turn out between people in Jackson county and the Saints in Clay county, because there were ongoing negotiations that were occurring as Zion's camp was marching to Missouri. And so he may have wanted to see how that was going to play out before doing something so drastic as calling up the state militia. It could have been, too. I mean, he didn't like the Latter Day Saints. He wasn't super vocal about that, but we have some correspondence where he calls them fanatics and other things. And so it could be that he just wasn't that interested in helping the Latter Day Saints. But that's all kind of murky in the historical record. It's not entirely clear what happened there.

[C]

You mentioned that Joseph Smith probably didn't envision this as a violent act, as a more protective act. I wanted to point out there's a wonderful article you wrote that's available in Gospel Library for free. It's called the Acceptable Offering of Zion's Camp. And a lot of it's written from the perspective of a guy named Nathan Baldwin, who is, what, 22 years old when the expedition happens? And he mentions that some of the men were disappointed when they didn't get to fight. Were there some people in Zion's camp that didn't have that idea in mind that it was protective? They thought it would be a retribution, that they were going to go in and kick butt and take names or anything like that?

[B]

Yeah, I think there was probably some members of Zion's camp that were hoping for a fight with people in Jackson County. As you mentioned, when Joseph receives section 105, that tells the Saints that it's not yet required of them to redeem Zion or that it's no longer required of them to redeem Zion at that time. There are some men who are quite angry about it, I think. William Cahoon, in one of his reminiscences, talks about men taking out their wrath on a pawpaw bush because they were angry that they weren't going to be able to fight anybody. But Nathan Baldwin, you know, in his account, he talks about how relieved he was that they weren't going to have to fight anybody. So for him, it was really a relief when the Lord said, okay, it's not required of me to go into Jackson County.

[C]

Yeah. When the revelations received telling them not to fight. I remember in your article, Nathan Baldwin says something like, it was the truest revelation that I've ever seen in my life. Or I'm trying to think of the exact wording that he used. Oh, Nathan Baldwin. Nathan Baldwin said this revelation was the most acceptable to him of anything he had ever heard before, the gospel being the exception. So it seems like he was pretty happy to not fight. But there were people that wanted to get in there.

[B]

Yeah, I think so. But, you know, sometimes people say, well, you know, if they weren't supposed to be a force that's going to go in and retake the land, then why are they carrying all these weapons with them? Because they were armed and they would do some military drills. And I think the reason why they were doing that was one, because they really believed that they were going to get attacked as they were marching to Missouri. There were all kinds of threats that were being levied against them in newspapers and other fashion. They'd have people come into camp and tell them that they were going to get attacked. And so I think Joseph realized they had to have some kind of protection as they're marching into Missouri. And then again, once they get into Missouri, if everything would have gone the way that it was supposed to, they needed a way to protect the Saints from being driven off their lands again. So I think that's the reason why they're carrying weapons, why they're doing military drills is to kind of prepare them for being left in Jackson county and protecting the Saints there later.

[C]

One of the things that maybe is misunderstood about Zion's camp is section 105, which is the revelation that tells them they're not going to fight. Essentially is one of the most peace focused revelations in the entire Doctrine and Covenants where they're told to raise up an ensign of peace to their enemies, that they're told to obtain the lands through peaceful means. That really does kind of underline the fact that Zion's camp wasn't intended to be divine retribution on the Missourians. It was always intended to have a different purpose, which was to resolve these issues without using violence.

[B]

Yeah. And that revelation even tells them to make a proclamation of peace, which they actually do. They write up this proclamation about the necessity of peace and they publish it in the evening, in the morning star. And so, yeah, like you're saying there, there's a lot in there of they wanted to maintain the peace. They weren't trying to go in there and pick a fight with, with people. That's. That's not what they were intending to do.

[C]

Were the threats of violence a factor in the fact that they had trouble recruiting enough people to go on Zion's camp? In the Revelation, the Lord kind of gives them several benchmarks. Recruit this much. And if you can't recruit this much, this much, how come they had trouble filling the ranks of Zion's camp?

[B]

Yeah, you know, the Lord kind of sets the limit as. Or he says you should recruit at least 500 men. If you can't do that, then you need to have at least 100. And if you can't get 100, then don't go. You know, it's not worthy going. And they barely made make that, that minimum amount. When the expedition leaves Kirtland in May of 1834, there's 120 people in that expedition. And they gradually get more and more people. There's also another contingent from Michigan that comes down. And once they reunite and as they're gaining more people on the way, they end up with about 230. So it's not even half of what the Lord really wanted to have in this. And in terms of why it was difficult to get people, I think, you know, it really was a great sacrifice for people to go on science camp. They had to sacrifice time, they had to sacrifice money. They were asked to do this, you know, in the spring and summer of the year. And if you're a farmer and you're, you know, growing crops, that's kind of a critical time to be able to supervise your crops. And so I think a large part of it was just, it was kind of a hard thing that the Lord was asking them to do. And I kind of look at myself if, you know, sometimes if I'm asked by my elders, quorum president, to go do something at our cannery or at the bishop's storehouse or to go help clean the temple, I mean, that's nothing like giving up two or three months of my life to march to Missouri and back. And yet I frequently am like, eh, I don't know. I don't know if I have the time to do that. So I think a lot of it was just human nature that they were being asked to do something hard and it was easier to say no than to say yes.

[A]

So next time somebody asks you in your ward listeners, whether or not you'd be willing to do a service project, just think, at least we're not being asked to march to Missouri.

[C]

That's my go to response for whenever my kids complain about a church assignment. Now I'm going to be like, you weren't asked to go to Missouri and act as a protecting army to escort the saints back. So just be quiet and go do the fast offerings or whatever you have to do. I never realized until you made that connection just now that they are gone during kind of the key farming months of the year. This is a summer expedition. And so if you're a farmer, yeah, you might be giving up your harvest if you go on Zion's camp. And everybody was sort of a farmer back then. So it's a big sacrifice.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's Wilford Woodruff, who agrees to go. And he tries to persuade his brother to go. And his brother just is like, I just can't do it. I can't get away and leave these things here to kind of have my family fend for themselves and whatever else. And Wilford tries really hard to convince them to come with him, but he can't get his brother to go with them. So it's interesting.

[C]

This is Asmon, his brother?

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Now, Matt, it's. It's often overlooked. We don't really talk about it a lot or shine a light on it, but there were women, right, who also marched in Zion's Camp. What do we know about these. About these women? Like, what was their role? Why were they there? What were their experiences like?

[B]

Yeah, I'd like to give a shout out to Andrea Radke Moss, who is really the one who has written about the women of Zion's Camp. She published an article, I think, way back in 2000 in BYU studies about women of Zion's Camp and really kind of shine the light on them. In that article, there was probably around 12 or 13 women that went on the expedition as well. I think all of them came because they were accompanying their husbands on the expedition. There were a few men who wanted to bring their whole families along on the expedition, and so their wives and their children came along as well. And so a lot of the women's responsibilities in Zion's Camp were taking care of their children, taking care their family, cooking, doing laundry, those types of tasks. In fact, there's a funny story that Heber C. Kimball tells about how on the expedition, right, kind of when they first start out, he needs to wash some of his clothes. And so he observes some of the women and the way that they're washing clothes. And then he goes down and he's noticed that they boil their laundry. And so he takes his laundry and he starts. Starts. He throws, you know, gets a fire going, gets water boiling, and he sticks his dirty shirts in there. And then he pulls them out of the laundry and he's scrubbing them and nothing's coming out. None of the dirt's coming out. And he said the women were laughing at him because you were supposed to scrub the laundry first before you boiled it, because if you boiled it first, then it just cooked the dirt into the clothes. He talked about how they thought that was very funny, that he didn't really know how to do his laundry. There's another good story, too, that's told, I think Joseph Holbrook is the one that talks about this. His wife Nancy, and then his brother and his brother's wife Eunice were all on Zion's Camp. And he talks about how once they got into Missouri, that Joseph Smith came and he kind of made a declaration that he didn't want the women to go with the men into Clay County. He wanted them to stay behind because he was worried about what was going to happen. But Nancy and Eunice didn't like this and they said, no, we want to accompany our husbands. We want to go the distance and be there the whole way for them. And so Joseph listened to them. He listened to their concerns. He said, again, this is according to Joseph Holbrook, if the sisters were willing to undergo a siege with the camp, they could go along with it. And then the women said, well, they would like to go. Joseph said, okay, that's fine. And then Joseph Holbrooke commented, the women liked Brother Joseph better than before for the privilege he gave them of continuing in the camp. They wanted to be just as much of a part of the camp as the men were. And, you know, at least in that case, Joseph allowed us it. And I think one other interesting aspect about the women is there were also a few women who donated money for Zion's Camp. They didn't go on the expedition, but they donated money so that they could buy goods along the way. One of these was a Sister Mary. She went by the name of Polly Vos, who was a 54 year old single sister in Boston. And she sent $150 to Joseph Smith for Zion's Camp camp. And it came at a time when Joseph was a little bit concerned about having enough money to fund the expedition. So he was very grateful for Paulie's donation there. And then, interestingly enough, another woman who donated to Zion's Camp was Sophia Hull Howe, who was married to Eber Howe. If you're familiar with Eber Howe, he is the anti Mormon editor of the Painesville Telegraph who writes Mormonism Unveiled. So his wife had converted to the church, which may have been part of the reason why he didn't like the church very much and didn't like Joseph Smith. But Sophia donated $7.60 to Zion's camp. When Eber published Mormonism Unveiled, he made a comment in there denouncing the, quote, poor fanatical females who could save no more than a shilling per day and still threw in all they could raise for Zion's Camp. So he's kind of taken a shot at his wife there. Like, I can't believe she donated money to this. But. But I think that's one of the interesting stories with women in Zion's Camp.

[C]

Go, Sophia. Wow, that is really. And I want to point out the document you're using here is we don't have a lot of contemporary documents from Zion's Camp, but we have financial documents from Zion's Camp. That's what one of your articles kind of focused on. Are there any other insights from these financial documents about Zion's Camp that you were able to glean?

[B]

It's actually a great document. It's like a ledger that they put together. In August of 1834, Frederick G. Williams was appointed as the historian of the camp. And so he kept records throughout the expedition, but unfortunately, we don't have any of his records. They were lost or destroyed somewhere along the lines, if you're familiar with Zion's Camp, you know, kind of difficulties that Joseph Smith and Sylvester Smith had throughout the expedition. And when they got back to Kirtland, Sylvester actually accused Joseph of financial misbeats with Zion's Camp, that Joseph was like taking money for himself and whatever else. So Orson Hyde actually prepared this ledger based off of Frederick G. Williams financial records that he had been keeping. And this financial record shows all the money that members of Zion's Camp donated because they were all supposed to consecrate money into a general fund to outfit the expedition. So there's about, I think, $1,600 that they end up donating. And so it shows the amounts that each person donated. Some people, it just shows zero by their names because either they didn't have any money to donate or they had their families with them. And if you had your family, you were just supposed to take care of your family. You didn't have to concentrate money into the general fund. I think the one who contributed the most was John Tanner, who your listeners are probably familiar with, who also donated a large sum of money that helped in the construction of the Kirtland Temple. So he consecrated another large sum, I think it was over $100, into the general fund of Zion's Camp. And then this financial ledger shows that kind of the organization of the camp was that it consisted of companies of between 10 and 12 men in each company. And each company had a captain. And so from this general fund, each captain would receive money to purchase goods and food and other things for their company. And so it has the allocation of money to each individual captain throughout the expedition. So it's probably the best source that we have. In terms of actually knowing who went on science camp, there's been a lot of debate over time about who actually participated. This at least shows you, I think about 170 men who participated. It doesn't get you all the way to the approximately 230 people that were on it, but it gets you pretty close. And so that's one thing that you can glean from that is who actually participated and then just the sacrifice they made of money in order to outfit the expedition.

[C]

Speaking of who participated, I've sometimes seen Zion's Camp presented as like a dream team from early church history that at least two prophets, you know, Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff were there, but Parley P. Pratt and Heber C. Kimball and a bunch of figures that go on to become really important. Something like 8 of the future quorum of the 12 are part of Zion's Camp. Tell us a little bit about the makeup of the camp and who the important figures were that participated in it.

[B]

Yeah, like you said, eight out of the original 12 apostles who were called in February of 1835 were members of Zion's Camp camp. So they were not apostles yet when they went on Zion's Camp. Joseph hadn't designated apostles at the time of the expedition. Around the same time that Joseph called the 12 apostles, he also called the initial members of the 70. And so there were 56 individuals who were called as 70s in 1835. And all 56 of them participated in Zion's Camp as well. And so you had these people who would become well known leaders in the church. Church you mentioned as well. Wilford Woodruff is on this expedition. He was baptized the end of 1833. So this was kind of his initial chance to really get to know Joseph Smith and other members of the church. George A. Smith, who will go on to be called as an apostle and a member of the First Presidency, he was Joseph Smith's cousin. He was on the expedition. He was only 16 years old at the time that he was. That he went on the expedition. Jedediah Grant, who will also become a member of the First Presidency, is on the Zion's Camp expedition as well. So you have quite a few people that will become fairly well known in church history that participate in Zion's Camp.

[C]

When you line up the timeline, Zion's Camp happens the summer of 1834. And then it feels like it's the winter of 1835. They have this Zion's Camp reunion. And that's where Joseph Smith announces the call of the 12. And the 70. Did Zion's camp make Joseph start thinking about succession or that there should be more of a diffusion of leadership within the church? Was it impactful on his thinking in that matter?

[B]

Yeah, I think it probably had an impact. He was able to kind of observe people in difficult circumstances and kind of see how they would react in those circumstances. He was able to spend a lot of time with individual people. You know, they're walking as much as 40 miles per day, according to. To some accounts. And so they're pretty much just walking the entire day. And if you've ever been on a hike with anyone, it's a great time to get to know people that you're hiking with and you talk and talk about your lives and your families and whatever else. So I'm sure as Joseph was doing that, he was starting to get an idea in his mind of who some of the future leaders in the church would be and kind of some of the roles that they might play.

[A]

Yeah, And I was just reading David Whitmer's history about all this, and he said that it was at Fishing river that. That Joseph actually designated him to be his successor as the president of the church in Missouri, which is really fascinating. Right. So succession is, at least by July of 1834, is on Joseph's mind. Case, as you just said that. I just pinged that in my brain. I was like, oh, yeah, that's July of 1834. And then, yeah, February of 1835, we get the quorum of the 12. We're going to get section 107, which also has some thinking about succession in there as well, in terms of equality of the quorum of 12 with the First Presidency, et cetera.

[C]

So it probably doesn't hurt that Joseph almost dies on Zion's Camp. Right. He gets cholera and becomes very ill. And he might be thinking, what if I had died? Who would continue the work?

[B]

Very well. Could be. You know, he had ideas of leadership kind of going through his mind. He just set up the Kirtland High Council in February of 1834. So a couple months before he leaves and after he gets to Missouri, he sets up a high council in Missouri as well, with a presidency for that High council. And the. That's David Whitmer's the president of the Missouri High Council and of the Missouri Church out there. And that's where Joseph says essentially that if he should pass on now, he has someone who could succeed him in the presidency. As you both know, throughout Joseph's life, he kind of, at different times, had different Ideas about how succession would go. Here we have David Whitmer. At other times he's thinking about the quorum of the twelve Apostles succeeding him. But I think as he learns more from the Lord as he kind of has that line upon line, precept upon precept revelation on succession, his ideas change over time.

[A]

When was the cholera outbreak? Was that before or after he had designated David Whitmer in July as the president of the church in Missouri?

[B]

Yeah, so it was before they started getting cholera. Around the time that Joseph's disbanding the camp. And so it's really kind of around mid to late June, the cholera epidemic is breaking out. And then, then it's that first week in July that he sets up the Missouri High Council on Missouri Presidency.

[C]

I'm going to throw you a curveball, Matt. When Scott and I were going through the sections, I think we both realized that about 90% of our understanding of Zion's Camp comes from that one seminary video that's really epic and tells the story and to our audience, is in Gospel Library and is available on YouTube and you should go and watch it. You're familiar with the video?

[B]

I am ye.

[C]

The historical accuracy of the seminary Zions camp video.

[B]

Well, I mean, I don't want to disparage anyone who worked on that video. I'm sure they did the best they could with what they have. But there are some inaccuracies in it. I just barely. I did a paper that should be getting published, I think next year on Sylvester Smith, who I mentioned before. He was kind of the malcontent on the Zion's Camp expedition. And that video really does portray him as a real pain in Joseph's side throughout the expedition, which he was, to be fair. But I think sometimes he gets a bad rap because it's hard to judge someone based on seven weeks of their life. He lives into his 70s and was a decent man otherwise for the most part. But the one thing that really sticks out in my mind with that video is there's a depiction in there of. I think it has Joseph Smith. Everybody's suffering. There's not enough water. They don't know what they're going to do to get water. And then it pictures Joseph Smith digging in the ground and he finds water. You know, it kind of, kind of saves the camp. There is a little bit of truth to that in that there apparently was an occasion where somebody dug into the ground to find water and they were able to find water. Levi Hancock was kind of the first one to talk about this and some reminiscences that he put together about his life, his autobiography. And in that autobiography, he doesn't even identify who it was that dug into the ground. He just said, somebody dug into the ground and they found water. You're thinking, if it was Joseph Smith, he probably would have mentioned that, but maybe he had just forgotten, I don't know. George A. Smith also mentions it in his history of Zion's Camp, which he wrote many years later. And in that history, George A. Says that he was the one that dug into the grave ground and found the water. And it's really not until the 1880s, Oliver Huntington, who wasn't on the expedition, but he says that a couple people told him that it was Joseph Smith who dug the well. And so I guess with that video, they decided to go with Joseph Smith. But from other histories of Zion's Camp, it seems to me that it probably wasn't Joseph that did that. It was probably somebody else in the camp who, who. Who actually dug that well. That's a little bit nitpicky, I think. But there are some things in there that I think probably would benefit from, you know, redoing it. Based on stuff we were able to find in the Joseph Smith papers. I think it's George A. Smith that talks about this. He talks about how they had, like, rancid ham for dinner and some of the men didn't like it, so they took the ham and threw it against Joseph Smith's tent and kind of protest, protests. And I can confirm as well that Joseph, I think, really did throw the camp bugle at Sylvester Smith. At one point. We have an account of that in some minutes of a meeting in August of 1834, where they're talking about, you know, kind of the difficulties between Sylvester and Joseph. And I think one person in there said, well, he didn't really throw it at Sylvester. He threw it on the ground in frustration, and then it bounced up and hit Sylvester. But I kind of think he threw it at Sylvester because he had enough of them.

[C]

He had it coming, I'm sure.

[A]

Talk to us about that. Because some of the criticism that is leveled against Joseph during this time is that there was poor planning, that this was hasty, that Joseph didn't know what he was doing, that the leadership of Joseph Smith was lacking. How much truth is there to that, you know, from the historical record? What could you say about the planning, the preparation, as is Joseph's fault? I mean, what's your take on it?

[B]

When I look at it, I don't think I necessarily blame Joseph. I mean, it probably could have been organized better. But remember, at this time, he's still in his late 20s. He doesn't have any experience organizing anything like that. He's kind of doing the best that he could do at the time. And the other thing is he really didn't have a lot of resources to draw. I mean, the whole reason why the people of Zion's Camp, those who were participating, had to consecrate money into a fund is that when Joseph and other church leaders went out to recruit for the camp, they were also trying to get donations from people to help them and the entire church. They got $300, which wasn't nearly enough to be able to buy all of the supplies and everything that this expedition would need. And so really, it's the members of Zion's Camp that have come up with the money to fund it. They come up with $1600. So they have close to $2000 for the entire camp. You know, that's for what eventually becomes 230 people. That's not a lot of money to buy food. There are times on the journey where they probably suffered a bit from the lack of food. But we also have other documents. You know, Heber Seek Kimball, I think, talks about the most of the time that they ate fine. And Joseph, in a letter to Emma, talks about that they had the necessities that they needed to proceed. So they probably weren't eating well. But I think for the most part, they had sufficient food and sufficient supplies for the expedition. So I don't know that you could really criticize Joseph himself in terms of how the expedition was supplied with goods. I think, again, a lot of it was that the church members didn't really support the expedition, which the Lord gets after him for. In section 105, you know, he tells the branches of the church, you needed to support this more and you didn't.

[C]

Let me ask you, Matt, about the battle of Fishing River. That seems to be the climactic moment of Zion's Camp. It's kind of the climax of the old seminary video. Is that portrayed accurately in that video or how did people. People describe that? Because that seems to be the only combat that Zion's Camp is involved in, if you can call it that.

[B]

Yeah, so just a little bit of background for that in case people don't know what that is. So as the expedition got closer to Clay county, they were camped by Fishing River. They had, I think, five men who came into their camp and told them that they Were going to see hell before morning. They said, we have a large group, an armed group, group that's just across the Fishing River. And when night comes, we're going to come across the river. We're going to attack you. We're going to kill everybody. And then the men kind of ride out of camp after giving them this warning. After they ride out of camp, there's this gigantic storm that springs up in the area, this huge thunderstorm. There's hail, there's lightning, there's thunder. There's a ton of rain that falls. It causes the river to rise to a level where it's not safe. Safe for these men to cross. And so there's no attack that. That night because of the storm. So when you're talking about how accurate portrayals of that are, one of the difficult things about this is there's really only one contemporary source that deals with the Fishing river storm. And it's from Charles C. Rich's journal. And he says in there something like, big storm, storm, lightning and thunder, threat of an attack, but no attack. And that's all his entry says on that. And then when Heber C. Kimball writes his kind of autobiography, which he starts putting together in 1840, so about six years after science Camp, he fleshes out the story of what happens at Fishing River. And he talks about how when the men rode out of the camp, he said, we notice there's this black speck in the sky that just gradually got bigger and bigger and bigger until this huge thunderstorm was unleashed. Everybody else, you know, who remembers the storm, later accounts that came after Heber C. Kimballs, they kind of follow this same description that Heber gives, that there was this huge storm, that there was a lot of rain and hail, that it prevented the attack. And they all almost universally attributed to God's protection, that it was really God protecting them from the attack of these men.

[A]

Let's get to the hardest question I think in my mind. You ready for this? Was Zion's Camp a failure or was it a success? We have different accounts of different people saying different things. Even people that were on Zion's Camp. Some are in one camp, pun intended, some are in the other, saying it was a, you know, some say it was success, some failure. Like, I'm thinking of Brigham Young who says, like, you know, we got exactly what we went for. You know, we. We, like the Lord was trying us and preparing us and refining us to be future leaders. Like, that's what this was really about. And then people like David Whitmer, who He. He cites that as one of the first moments that his confidence started to wane in Joseph Smith's prophetic leadership. Like, he saw it as a failure. He saw it as Joseph speaking for himself and pretending to speak for the Lord. And like, you get really faithful people, people who are seeing the same events, and they're interpreting it very differently. We know where David Whitmer ends up, and we also know where Brigham Young ends up. How can we be objective about this? With. With.

[B]

You know, that really is one of the key questions about Zion's camp. Right. Some of it depends on what your definition is of success. If you're seeing Zion's camp as something that was supposed to help the Saints get their land back in Jackson county, county, then it was a failure because the Saints didn't get their land back in Jackson County. You know, they didn't get any money for their land in Jackson County. Nothing resulted from that. And so I think, again, because a lot of times we think that Zion's camp was supposed to be this measure for the Saints to go into Jackson county. And reclaim their land. Then, you know, if you have that point of view, yes, it was a failure. But I think there's another way of looking at. At it. And one of the things that I've studied with Zion's Camp is just how people who actually participated in the expedition, how they viewed the camp. Now, certainly you have some people who believed that it was a failure, that I think it perhaps harmed their testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet because they thought, well, if he's a prophet, then why did we even come this whole way just for the Lord to tell him, no, you don't need to redeem Zion at this time. But the vast majority of people who left accounts of their time on Zion's camp did not see Zion's camp as a failure. And they didn't focus on this notion of did we get the lands back or not. They focused instead on what did I learn from this expedition. And with that focus almost to a T, they say, I learned that God really was with me, that he was with this camp, that he is involved in my life, that he cares about me, that he wants me to be safe and protected. And I saw evidence after evidence of this on Zion's Camp. That's really what you get out of most of the reminiscences about Zion's Camp. And so, on a very personal level, I think most people who participated in the camp would say, no, it wasn't a felon failure, because that's where I truly came to know God. And that's where my testimony really increased. And like you mentioned, you have people like Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff and others who said they wouldn't trade anything for the time they got to spend with Joseph Smith on Zion's Camp because it taught them about leadership, and they were able to gain a lot of lessons from Joseph Smith about leadership. And it's interesting to me, too, that when you think about this, in 1846, when Brigham Young has to orchestrate the Saints exodus from Nauvoo and going over to the Great Basin, he basically uses the same organization that Joseph Smith used for Zion's Camp. And in fact, when Zion's Camp occurred, they called it the Camp of Israel. That was the contemporary name of Zion's Camp. And what name does Brigham use when the Saints depart Nauvoo? Camp of Israel. And that's really when they started calling this earlier one Zion's Camp so they wouldn't get the two confused. So I think it really is interesting to me to kind of see how people who actually participated in it viewed it and how most of them viewed it as a personal success and a personal time of great spiritual development.

[C]

It seems like it's like the handcarts, where a lot of people say, well, that handcart experiment was a total disaster. And then there's people that actually participated in it and said, we suffered, but we came close to God and are suffering, too. Like, a lot of it is what they chose to gain from the experience.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. I think that's a. That's a great parallel.

[A]

Could we back up a little bit to the moment where. So Zion's Camp is rolling in, we're getting close to Jackson county, and then the word comes from Governor Duncan that he is not going to call out the militia. He's not going to escort the Saints into Jackson county so that Zion's Camp can then become that protector, active army. And it seems like if we're going to point a finger of blame anywhere, we're going to point it to Governor Duncan and say he didn't keep his word. Like, one of the reasons we even have this group coming all the way almost a thousand miles from Ohio to participate is because he said that he would help the Saints go back into Jackson county, get their land. What happened with Governor Duncan? Like, why did he renege on his. I'm going to call it a promise, or his. I don't know what you want to call it, but his. His statement that. That he would do that. Am I getting that right? Is that. Would you say the number one reason Zion's camp failed in the sense of going back into Jackson county, that it was Governor Dunklin's fault?

[B]

Yeah, I think for sure. When Governor Dunklin refused to call it the state militia, I mean, that throws a wrench into the entire process because that really kind of was the key aspect of the this. And Joseph realized, because he had many people tell him, that if he took Zion's camp across the Missouri river into Jackson county, there was going to be a war, there was going to be bloodshed. And I don't think Joseph wanted to do that. So they really needed the state militia to be able to do this peacefully. And so when Governor Dunklin says, no, I'm not going to do that, then there's not a whole lot that the Saints could do. But even with that, that Charles C. Rich in his journal says that even after they received word that Governor Dunklan wasn't going to call out the militia, that they decided, well, we're going to keep marching and we'll see how the Lord helps us to be able to accomplish what he wants us to accomplish. And then it's a few days after that that Joseph gets the revelation saying that it's no longer required of this group to redeem Zion. I wish we had a clearer sense, too, of what happened happen when Orson Hyde and Parley P. Pratt go and visit Governor Duncan, because we don't have a real clear sense of what happened. I think according to Parley P. Pratt, Norson Hyde, you know, they said, well, he's not willing to call out the militia. And they don't really give much detail about why and kind of what that conversation looked like.

[A]

Can you give us the timeline on that? So when does Orson Hyde and Parley go to the governor relative to where Zion's camp is, when they're marching?

[B]

Yeah. So it's after they get into Missouri and they join up at Salt river with the Michigan contingent that comes down. I think it's right around that time. I think it's off the top of my head. I want to say it's around June 12th that they send Orson Height and Parley P. Pratt to consult with the governor. And then the revelation that ends Zion's camp, that comes on June 22nd. So, you know, it's roughly a week and a half or so before that revelation comes. The thing that makes the most sense to me as to what happened there was that Governor Dunklan wanted to see how negotiations were going to play out between Jackson county citizens and church leaders in Clay county before he called up the militia. But even that. I mean, those negotiations break down not long after Zion's camp ends, and he still doesn't call up the state militia. So it's difficult to kind of know what was going on in his mind and why he decided not to. But I. I think it's safe to say he probably saw it as something that might escalate conflicts between the people of Jackson county and the Latter Day Saints. And he probably didn't want to have that escalation. And he probably also realized, too, that it may have been political suicide to call up the state militia to help the Latter Day Saints, or at least something that wouldn't have been seen as favorable by a large number of Missourians. And so that all could have played into his decision as well.

[A]

Interesting. So he pulls the plug. And now with the Saints not having any other, you know, recourse to help get Jackson county back, Joseph, Praise received, section 105. And the Lord says, now is not the time. Turn around, go home.

[B]

And I. I think it's also worthwhile to point out, too, that it. It's not Joseph making a unilateral decision, as Joseph did frequently throughout his life. He called a council, and it's in that council that he receives section 105 in the doctrine and Covenants. So he's trying to get the feeling of other people in Zion's camp, of other church leaders about what they think they should do, and they're trying to get that information before they go to the Lord in prayer. It kind of reminds me of, you know, in President Nelson, Wilson talked about putting together the first presidency when he was called as prophet, and how he met with each member of the quorum of the 12 and got their input and their information about who they thought would. Would be good counselors to him. And then I think he said something like, good information precedes revelation. And I think you see Joseph acting in this same way that he's trying to collect information both from, you know, people in Jackson county and Lafayette county, because there's a contingent that comes in on June 21, the day before he gets the revelation, and kind of tells them what's going on in Jackson county and how there's a large force of men there just waiting to attack the saints. So he's trying to gather information before he gets the revelation that ensigns camp. So I think that's an important principle, too.

[C]

Matt, what about the cholera outbreak that happens sometimes, that's depicted as know, punishment upon the camp. I know about 13 people passed away. There's a little monument at the Zion's Camp in Missouri. How did they see that at the time? Did they see the cholera outbreak as God showing his disfavor on the men of Zion's camp or how was it seen by them?

[B]

Yeah, I think most people did see it as a sign of God's punishment at the time. So Heber C. Kimball talks about how at a moment on the expedition whether where there had been some disunities, some murmuring and complaining with, by people that Joseph Smith called the camp together and he said, because of your disunity, because of your murmuring, the Lord has shown me that he's going to unleash a scourge upon you to kind of try to correct you and to chastise you for this disunity. And George A. Smith talks about how when Joseph said that, George A thought he was talking about, oh, that means, you know, some of these groups that have been threatening us are going to come in and they're going to attack us. But then when cholera breaks out, I think almost universally the people in Zion's camp saw that as the scourge that Joseph had prophesied was going to come upon the camp. And so like you mentioned, it ends up killing 13 members of the camp as well as two other church members living in Clay county at the time. So, so they did see it as kind of a devastating thing. And I think that kind of highlights their worldview at the time. I think they really did see God as a being who could be merciful but could also inflict punishment and chastisement when he needed to. I think that's kind of the mindset they got from the Book of Mormon, from the Bible, from these books of Scripture. And I don't know necessarily today if we had something like that happen, if we would necessarily think that it's God punishing us, maybe we would. But I think sometimes, you know, we, we might just think, well, it's just something natural that happened because cholera spread through water and if you drink water that's contaminated with it, then it's going to afflict you. But for the people back then, they really did see it as God's punishment for their disun.

[A]

So from section 101 and section 103 especially, it, it really seems, it really seems like the Lord intended for Zion to be redeemed around that time. He even said, there's enough already in the church to redeem Zion. I think at that point he was talking about money and fundraising to try to help buy and purchase all the lands in the area from their enemies. You know, he says in section 101, Zion will not be moved out of its place. Like, there's all this momentum going into Zion's camp and these promises. Like, it really seems like from. From the reading of the text that the Lord intended Zion to be redeemed, like pretty soon, like early on, but then it doesn't happen. And a couple reasons we can point to, right? Governor Dunkland's reneging, maybe murmuring in the camp, I don't know. But I guess the question, and I'm curious on your reflections on this, your thoughts. I won't expect you to give the answer, Matt, but how long can man and our weakness and our foibles, how long can we postpone God's will? You know, it seems like it was because of the failures of humans that Zion is not redeemed. This has been a cause of a lot of erosion. In testimony, Casey and I were with a group of branches from our church in Missouri a couple of years ago, and I asked some of them point blank, like, why don't you accept Nauvoo? Joseph Smith, you seem to stop at, like, Kirtland, you know, and one of them said, well, Joseph had three missions. Number one was to translate the Book of Mormon. Number two was to establish the church. And number three was to redeem Zion. And when he failed to redeem Zion, that was evidence that the Lord had pulled away. Right. The Lord was no longer with Joseph or whatever. And there's just so much theological complexity with the Lord seeming to promise the redemption of Zion and that doesn't happen because of human weakness. And I'm just curious what your reflections are on that.

[B]

Yeah, it's a great question. I don't know that I have a great answer answer for that. It is something that I think can plague a lot of people and not just with Zion's camp. I think you see people that are troubled by the same kind of thing in their own life where they might think that God's told them that something's going to happen and then it doesn't happen. And then they wonder, well, you know, was I really feeling the spirit? Or why didn't it happen? Is it because I'm not, you know, did I not have enough faith? Did, did I mess something up? And. And those can be hard things to deal with. And I guess a couple of things that I would mention. I don't know how helpful they are, but they help me. When I'm looking at this question, one is just everything happens along the Lord's timetable and according to the Lord's timing. And it does seem like in this instance he was telling them, you'll get your lands back. But then perhaps because of disunity, perhaps because of the lack of support of church branches for Zion's camp, this doesn't happen. But that doesn't mean that the work of Zion is thwarted at that time. It means maybe it's delayed or it's postponed for a time. And so I think the Lord gives us opportunities to do things, but I think when he gives us those opportunities, he knows how it's going to turn out. And I think the Lord always has a backup plan because he knows whether we're going to succeed or whether we're going to fail at something. And so in this instance, you know, yes, maybe they didn't get their lands back in Jackson county, and maybe eventually they're forced out of Missouri. And maybe we're sitting here still in 2025 thinking that, you know, we still need to build the new Jerusalem in Jackson county before Jesus Christ can, can return. And maybe all of that is true. But, you know, the restoration hasn't ended. The Lord hasn't returned yet to the earth. And so all of those things can still happen. And I think about how with the Lord, you know, for, for me, because I'm living here and I have to deal with time, you know, four years seems like a long time to me. But for the Lord, that really isn't very long. And even 160 years or 170 years or 180 years isn't that long to the Lord when you think about eternity and everything else. And so for me, I might think back seven years ago when I was praying. I really had a strong impression that this was going to happen. And here we are seven years later, and it hasn't happened. For me, that almost makes me want to give up and say, I guess it's not going to happen. But for the Lord, he's probably like, just give it some more time. It hasn't been that long in the larger scheme of things. And so I think that's. That's one thing that I would say, and I think the other thing too is just our expectations. A lot of times when we read the Scriptures or when we experience things in our own lives, we have expectations of how it's supposed to turn out. And Then if it doesn't turn out that way, then we think something must have gone wrong. The best example I have of this is just when I went on my mission, you know, I had something very specific in my patriarchal blessing talking about how I would have success on my mission. And that's all it said. It didn't say I would baptize a lot of people, it said I would have success. But I interpreted that as I would baptize a lot of people. And then on my mission I saw one guy that I taught get baptized. And that was, was it. You know, if I'm thinking that success means baptisms, then I'm thinking, well, this promise wasn't re. Wasn't fulfilled in my patriarchal blessing. And so why wasn't it fulfilled? Was the patriarch wrong? Was I just not a good missionary? You know, why didn't that happen? And it's taken me a lot of time thinking about this to really kind of determine that maybe my expectation was wrong. And the Lord's definition of success, success was different from how I was defining it because there was a lot of things that I learned on my mission and a lot of experiences I've had that have blessed my life. And I think if I look at it from that perspective, yeah, my mission was a success. It was a success in building up my testimony and in helping solidify me in the gospel. So I think we need to realize that what we think the Lord means by something or what we expect may not be what the Lord was thinking at the time.

[C]

Zion's Camp seems to be one of those brief but pivotal moments in the history of the church. In your mind, what are the biggest long term effects of the march of Zion's Camp that it has on the church?

[B]

Well, I think definitely the leadership as we've already talked about, I don't think it's any coincidence that after Zion's Camp, that's when you get the 12 apostles and the 71st called. Because again, I think the expedition gave Joseph the opportunity to observe people, to understand who people were. And I think all of that went into who he called as members of the 12 apostles and of the 70. And again, like we talked about earlier, you know, there's even people who weren't called as those original members who go on to serve key positions in church leaders, leadership. And so really I think it has a long lasting effect on how the church is led. I mean, you could argue almost into the 20th century because Wilford Woodruff goes on science camp and he doesn't pass away until the 1890s. And so it really has that impact on church leadership. And I think that really is kind of the biggest impact that it has.

[A]

On the church, the development of the future leaders of the church on whom back the the kingdom would roll on. Yeah. Okay. Well, Matt, this has been just so delightful to have you with us. So fun to have one of the world's experts on this topic for. For an hour to chat with as we kind of land the plane here on this episode. I just have one more question for you. Kind of a devotional question, but we're just curious, like, how has studying the history of the church deeply, as one of the Joseph Smith paper scholars and really digging into original sources and all of this, like, how has that strengthened your testimony? How has it helped you become a better discipline disciple of Christ? You're still a believer. Like, how has your research and your scholarship really deepened all of that for you?

[B]

I think for me, it really comes down to it's helped me develop more charity for people in the past, which has then helped me develop more charity for myself. And what I mean about that is that when you study Joseph Smith or you study the lives of these other early holy saints, they're not perfect. You know, they have faults and weaknesses just like all of us do. But they really are doing the best they can to do what the Lord has commanded them to do. And even with their weaknesses and their imperfections, the Lord's able to do a great work in them. And so that's given me a lot more hope that with my many weaknesses and imperfections, that maybe the Lord, Lord can still do some good things through me. Maybe he can bless somebody else's life through me if I'm just willing to do what he asked me to do. And I think it's given me especially a lot more admiration for Joseph Smith as a prophet, because when you think about everything that he was going through at the same time that he's trying to lead the church, you know, he's dealing with the deaths of many of his children, children, he's dealing with family issues. He doesn't know where he's going to get money, how he's going to take care of his family much of the time. And he's dealing with all of those stresses at the same time that he's trying to lead this church and trying to implement what the Lord wants him to implement. And it just gives me a whole lot of admiration for how he's able to do that in his life. And again, it's given me a lot more charity I think when I think about Joseph and his life and just helped me to see more how the Lord can operate in my own life.

[C]

Well said. Well Matt, thanks for joining us and like Scott said this has been a pleasure. We commend everybody to your work, your book and the materials that are easily available online to go and check it out and learn a little bit more about this great group of people that marched all the way to Missouri to try and redeem Zion. So thanks for shining a spotlight on this them Matt.

[B]

Yeah thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed this and I I always love talking about science camp so whenever anybody wants to talk about that or Sugar Beats I'm I'm there.

[A]

Yeah okay.

[C]

The Sugar Beat episode is coming so we're going to get there one of these.

[A]

Got to get there somehow. Somehow. Awesome. Well thanks Matt. Appreciate you sir.

[B]

Yeah thank you.

[C]

Sa.