Church History Matters Podcast – Episode 155:

Was Zion’s Camp a Success or Failure? With Matt Godfrey

Podcast: Church History Matters
Host: Scripture Central (Scott & Casey)
Guest: Matt Godfrey (Senior Managing Historian, Church History Department)
Date: September 11, 2025
Episode theme: An in-depth exploration of Zion’s Camp (1834) in Latter-day Saint history, examining whether the expedition was a success or failure, its misunderstood aspects, firsthand accounts, and its long-term impact on church leadership.

Overview of Episode

This episode tackles the enduring question: Was Zion’s Camp a failure or a success? Hosts Scott and Casey are joined by Church historian Matt Godfrey for a rich, source-based discussion. The episode moves beyond simplistic "success or failure" terms to analyze the expedition’s complexities, personal accounts, lasting influence, and the spiritual as well as organizational lessons learned.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: What Was Zion's Camp? (06:12–13:38)

• Misunderstood Purpose:
  Many Latter-day Saints and even scholars misinterpret Zion’s Camp as an offensive military expedition. In reality, Joseph Smith saw it as a protective force intended to escort Saints back into Jackson County and provide ongoing security. (08:17)

• Governor Dunklin’s Role:
  The Latter-day Saints hoped Missouri Governor Dunklin would call out the state militia to help them reclaim their land. However, his intentions and motives remain unclear in the historical record, with possible factors including political concerns, personal prejudice, and the ongoing local negotiations. (08:33–10:17)

"But that really wasn't what Joseph Smith had in mind from the beginning of Zion's camp. He saw the members of Zion's camp as serving more as a protective force for the Latter Day Saints." – Matt Godfrey [08:05]

2. Recruitment, Sacrifice, and Women’s Contributions (14:04–22:16)

• Difficult Recruitment:
  God’s revelation called for 500 men; only about 120 initially set out, with numbers eventually growing to about 230—far below the original intent. Reasons include the significant sacrifice required: time, money, and particularly the timing during critical farming months. (14:20)

"It was kind of a hard thing that the Lord was asking them to do. ... It was easier to say no than to say yes." – Matt Godfrey [15:34]

• Women in Zion’s Camp:
  About 12–13 women participated, usually accompanying their husbands and handling traditional domestic tasks. Some, like Nancy and Eunice Holbrook, insisted on marching the entire way, and some, like Polly Vos and Sophia Howe, contributed financially. (17:12–21:55)

“They wanted to be just as much of a part of the camp as the men were. … I think one other interesting aspect about the women is there were also a few women who donated money for Zion's Camp.” – Matt Godfrey [18:48]

3. Organization, Leadership, and Legacy (25:06–29:40)

• Key Figures:
  Zion’s Camp proved to be a “who’s who” of early LDS leadership. Eight of the original Twelve Apostles and all initial Seventy had been on Zion’s Camp. (25:32)
• Leadership Pipeline:
  The expedition gave Joseph Smith a chance to observe individuals’ faith, character, and leadership in adversity, directly informing subsequent appointments to leadership roles. (27:13)

“He was able to spend a lot of time with individual people. ... So I'm sure as Joseph was doing that, he was starting to get an idea in his mind of who some of the future leaders in the church would be and some of the roles that they might play.” – Matt Godfrey [27:13]

4. Cholera Outbreak and Adversity (29:40–51:29)

• Cholera Epidemic:
  Near the expedition’s end, a devastating cholera epidemic struck, killing 13 members. Participants and Joseph Smith himself saw this as divine chastisement for internal dissension and murmuring, reflecting a worldview that interpreted adversity as spiritual correction. (49:07–51:29)

5. Narratives, Memories & Myths (30:08–33:95)

• Scripture and Folklore:
  The seminary video depiction of Zion's Camp is critiqued for dramatization and inaccuracies (e.g., Joseph Smith miraculously digging a well). Many details come from much later recollections, which can blur facts. (30:31–33:95)
• Authenticating the Record:
  Matt Godfrey stresses that while some drama is true, others are either less certain or simply not as Joseph-focused as folklore suggests (like digging for water or the “rancid ham” story).

6. Planning and Criticisms of Joseph Smith’s Leadership (33:57–36:20)

• Resource Limits and Support:
  Joseph Smith had limited resources, experience, and church-wide financial support. Critiques about poor planning often overlook these obstacles and the general lack of backing from broader membership. (34:19)

“He doesn't have any experience organizing anything like that. He's kind of doing the best that he could do at the time.” – Matt Godfrey [34:19]

7. Fishing River Storm: Miracle or Natural Cause? (36:20–38:52)

• Miraculous Rescue:
  When threatened by a mob, the camp was saved by a sudden, intense storm, widely interpreted at the time as an act of divine intervention. Only one contemporary source documents the storm; later accounts add miraculous details.

“...there's this gigantic storm that springs up... it causes the river to rise... so there's no attack that night because of the storm.” – Matt Godfrey [36:37]

8. Was Zion’s Camp a Success or Failure? (38:52–53:20)

Competing Perspectives:

• Success through Spiritual Growth (Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff):
  Many participants saw Zion’s Camp as a transformative, faith-building experience—an opportunity to know God and Joseph Smith, preparing them for leadership.
• Failure to Redeem Zion (David Whitmer, Critics):
  Some, like David Whitmer, saw the failure to reclaim land as evidence against Joseph Smith’s prophetic role.

“The vast majority of people who left accounts of their time on Zion's camp did not see Zion's camp as a failure. ... They focused instead on what did I learn from this expedition.” – Matt Godfrey [39:55]

“If you're seeing Zion's camp as something that was supposed to help the Saints get their land back ... then it was a failure. ... But ... on a very personal level ... that's where I truly came to know God.” – Matt Godfrey [41:16]

• Parallel to Handcart Companies:
  Like the handcart narrative, whether Zion’s Camp was a disaster or a faith-affirming experience depends on the perspective and interpretation of those who lived it. (43:11)

9. Delayed Redemption and Theological Questions (51:29–57:56)

• Theological Complexity:
  The Lord’s promises to redeem Zion appear unfulfilled, leading to doubts among some believers and branches that later rejected Joseph Smith’s continued leadership.

“How long can we postpone God's will? ... It seems like it was because of the failures of humans that Zion is not redeemed.” – Scott [53:20]

• God’s Timing and Expectations:
  Matt Godfrey shares personal insights about how God’s timetable and definition of “success” may differ from our expectations, encouraging faith in the face of apparent setbacks.

“Maybe my expectation was wrong and the Lord's definition of success was different from how I was defining it.” – Matt Godfrey [56:36]

10. Long-Term Impact on Church Leadership (57:56–59:06)

• Enduring Leadership Model:
  Zion’s Camp’s greatest legacy is the pipeline it established for future church leadership, shaping both individuals’ spiritual development and the institutional structure of the church well into the 20th century.

“I think definitely the leadership ... I don't think it's any coincidence that after Zion's Camp, that's when you get the 12 apostles and the 71st called.” – Matt Godfrey [58:08]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Zion’s Camp as a success:

  “I learned that God really was with me, that he was with this camp, that he is involved in my life, that he cares about me, that he wants me to be safe and protected. And I saw evidence after evidence of this on Zion's Camp.” – Matt Godfrey [41:37]

• On leadership observation:

  “As Joseph was doing that, he was starting to get an idea in his mind of who some of the future leaders in the church would be and kind of some of the roles that they might play.” – Matt Godfrey [27:13]

• On interpreting adversity:

  “I think they really did see God as a being who could be merciful but could also inflict punishment and chastisement when he needed to. ... I think that's kind of the mindset they got from the Book of Mormon, from the Bible, from these books of Scripture.” – Matt Godfrey [50:22]

• On redefining success:

  “It is something that I think can plague a lot of people ... where they might think that God's told them that something's going to happen and then it doesn't happen. ... And then they wonder, well, you know, was I really feeling the spirit? Or why didn't it happen?” – Matt Godfrey [53:20]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Zion’s Camp Background and Purpose: 06:12–13:38
• Recruitment Sacrifices & Women’s Role: 14:04–22:16
• Finances & Organization: 22:16–25:06
• Participants and Leadership: 25:06–29:40
• Cholera Outbreak: 49:07–51:29
• Seminary Video Accuracy: 30:08–33:95
• Evaluating Zion's Camp: Success or Failure: 38:52–43:30
• Governor Dunklin’s Role: 43:30–47:47
• Long-Term Consequences: 57:56–59:06

Tone and Style

The discussion is respectful, approachable, and deeply engaged with historical evidence, while also allowing for devotional reflection and humor. The hosts balance insider insights and personal anecdotes with clear explanations—making the episode both accessible and enriching for listeners at any level.

Concluding Reflection

Matt Godfrey closes by sharing how studying church history—warts and all—has increased his charity both for historical figures and himself, providing hope that God can work through imperfect people, in any era:

“When you study Joseph Smith or you study the lives of these other early ... saints, they're not perfect. ... But they really are doing the best they can ... And even with their weaknesses and their imperfections, the Lord's able to do a great work in them. And so that's given me a lot more hope that with my many weaknesses and imperfections, that maybe the Lord ... can still do some good things through me.” – Matt Godfrey [59:48]

For further reading, Matt Godfrey’s work on Zion’s Camp can be found in both scholarly and free online resources, including Gospel Library and BYU Studies.