A (4:14)

There's probably no more dramatic event in the history of the church, except for maybe the martyrdom, than the Kirtland apostasy, where I think estimates are around one third of the church apostatizes. We're talking by the time the smoke settles, all three of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon have been excommunicated or disaffiliated. Five apostles, one member of the First Presidency. Now, I should mention, a lot of them come back. It takes years for some. Some return really quickly. Some just have a brief flirtation with apostasy and never actually leave. Brigham Young said, for instance, what did he have, like two seconds or something like that? In your mental timeline of church history, this is a major event. We are ending the Kirtland period. Section 112 is the last section received in Kirtland, Ohio. And we're starting a new brief period in Missouri. And then we're going to get into Nauvoo, where major, major stuff happens.

B (5:08)

And I've heard statistically that it was a third of church leadership that apostatizes, but only 10% of JE general church membership, which is super fascinating. It seemed to affect those in the highest leadership positions more than the general church membership. So again, we're going to get into all of that today, so buckle up. Our first episode will be sections 111 to 112. And then I think we'll. We'll wrap that into one. And then our second episode this week will be section 113 and 114. So with that as our introduction, let's now dive deep into section 111. Casey, what was going on in the background right before section 111? Like, drill a little deeper there for us.

A (5:52)

There's probably no greater contrast between sections in the Doctrine and covenants than section 110, where Jesus Christ, Moses, Elias, and Elijah are appearing in the temple. Then you flip the page and we're in Salem, Massachusetts. It's several months later. It's late in the summer of the same year. The appearance of Christ takes place in early April. This was received in late summer, 1836. And it's in Salem, home to the famous Salem witch trials. Also the movie Hocus Pocus, if you're keeping track. It's received by a group that travels there that consists of Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and Sidney Rigdon. They travel to the eastern states. They visit New York City, Boston and Salem. Salem is where the Revelation is received before they go back to Kirtland in September. Joseph smith received Section 111 on August 6, 1836, while they were in Salem. But I'm going to level with you. Like, we don't have as much information about what was going on here as we would like. And the story that I'm about to put together doesn't always come from the most religious, reliable sources. So we're doing the best we can here. Okay, so what we basically have to start with is a letter that Oliver Cowdery wrote to his brother Warren, who we mentioned a couple episodes ago, and a letter that Joseph Smith wrote to Emma during their time in Salem. Other than that, there's no contemporary documents. There's no documents from the time that state the reason for this trip to Salem. And it has been subject to several paths of speculation. Here's the most common one. Okay. It's believed that the trip was at least partially and might be completely motivated by concerns about deaths of the church. So you mentioned massive debt after the Kirtland Temple. People are gathering to Kirtland, and they're on the poor end of the spectrum. The cost of finishing the temple in Kirtland and the persecution suffered in Missouri and the number of new converts joining just increased the financial burden of the church to almost unbearable levels. The context that links this to church finance comes from two individuals who were not directly involved in the journey, but later explained the trip was connected to a search for lost treasure. So that adds to the intrigue. Right? We're in Salem, there's lost treasure. Here's the sources. And again, they're a little shaky, but best we got in an 1843 pamphlet written by James Brewster, he briefly spoke of, these are his words, a house that was rented in the city of Boston with the expectation of finding a large sum of money buried in or near the cellar. This is a little troubling because Brewster, the guy who wrote this, James Brewster, was disfellowshipped from the church in 1837, and he was only 16 years old when he was disfellowshipped. So he wasn't in the higher circles. And he does kind of have an axe to grind with this. He wrote the pamphlet accusing church leaders of treasure seeking.

B (8:27)

So Brewster was neither on the trip nor associated with the details. Why would we even care about his account just because it exists?

A (8:34)

It's what we have. It doesn't contradict any of the contemporary sources. And there is some language in section 111 that talks about treasure and things like that that might confirm at least part of his story. But this is coming from a guy who wasn't really involved in the higher leadership of the church, who's disgruntled and who writes it seven years later. And so we're not saying he's lying. We're saying be cautious. He has an axe to grind, I guess, is what we would say. The other source is shaky, too. It's written in 1889. So 53 years after the trip, Ebenezer Robinson wrote a more detailed account of what happened. Robinson had worked closely with Joseph Smith while Joseph was living in Kirtland. But he also left the church after Joseph Smith's death. So Robinson wrote his account as the editor of the Return, which was a publication associated with David Whitmer's Church of Christ. So Robinson's writing much later, but he does have closer connections to Joseph Smith. But he's working with David Whitmer, who, at the time Robinson writes his history, was very sour on Joseph Smith. So I'm just saying sometimes we present section 111 like it's absolutely known that they were in Salem seeking treasure in a house or anything like that. But it's a little bit shakier than some people would claim it is. Now, again, it's what we got, and so we're going to go with it. This is what Ebenezer Robinson wrote. He wrote a brother in the church by the name of Burgess had come to Kirtland and stated that a large amount of money had been secreted in the cellar of a certain house in Salem, Massachusetts, which belonged to a widow. And he thought he was the only person now living who had knowledge of it or to the location of the house. We saw the brother Burgess, but Don Carlos Smith told us with regard to the hidden treasure. So Burgess tells him about the house. Apparently Don Carlos Smith is involved, tells him about the treasure. His statement was credited by the brethren and steps were taken to try and secur the treasure. I should emphasize Robinson's story fits some documents from the time. There's a promissory note to Jonathan Burgess dated August 17, 1836. Around the same time it was published as part of the Joseph Smith Papers. You can find it there. And Joseph Smith mentions, in his words, very luckily and providentially finding the house of a brother Burgess. He spells it Burgess differently here in a letter he wrote to Emma from Salem. So there is some contemporary evidence that corroborates Robinson's story.

B (11:01)

Parts of Robinson's account are question and should be read with care. For instance, Robinson stated that Joseph rented the house in question and failed to find any treasure. But in Joseph Smith's letter to Emma, Joseph indicated that he was unable to rent or even gain access to the house. The letter was written two weeks after the group arrived in Salem, and they left shortly after the letter was sent, indicating that the group never actually gained access to the house the way that Robinson is asserting. And so if we just back up, I know this kind of sounds a little nitpicky, but these are the kind of historical problems you get when an account like this is written so many years after the events took place. And the fact that Robinson eventually left the church in part over temporal concerns further kind of muddies the historical waters. With all of that said, the revelation itself also offers some clues which I think is maybe our best source if we're. If we're talking. If we're weighing sources out here. Right. Like the revelation itself does confirm that they were in back seeking some type of treasure in salem. That's verse 10. Yet neither Joseph Smith or his associates ever follow up on any prospect of finding monetary treasure in any home in Salem. Although Joseph did write Emma that he believed they could access the house in a few months, whatever that means. So whatever their full motivations for the journey may have been, the prophet and his companions return to Kirtland soon after this revelation is given. And they are facing a growing financial and spiritual crisis in the church in Kirtland. That's not as much context as we like to typically have for sections, Casey. But that's the best we got, isn't it?

A (12:43)

We're just trying to be cautious with the sources as we go. They're in Salem. Obviously. Going all the way to Salem is something they wouldn't have done unless they had a good motivation to do so. But the record isn't complete. We don't have a slam dunk. We know absolutely why they were here. Like we do with most other sections of the doctrine and Coven, just a little caution before you give your witchcraft themed lesson. Because they're in Salem or anything like that.

B (13:11)

Good call. Awesome. So that's the context. Let's now head into the content of this revelation. So, verse one, here's what the Lord says. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies. Now, the folly mentioned here, we don't know exactly what he's referring to. This may have come less from the trip to Salem to find treasure and more from a lack of faith in the Lord's power to help the church overcome its temporal Concerns like just recently in section 104, the Lord counseled Joseph and other church leaders that they would be able to pay their debts if they would, quote, humble yourselves before me and obtain this blessing by your diligence and humility and the prayer of faith. Close quote. By the way, this is confirmed in verse five of this Revelation, where the Lord says, concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them. What the folly of verse one is exactly, we're not sure. It could be that they took some guy's advice to go find buried treasure in the basement of some house in Salem. That could be it. But it could also be this idea that they had not enough faith in the Lord's promises that he would help them overcome their debts. And they ought not, as verse 5 says, concern themselves themselves about their debts the way that they're obviously displaying here. So something like that is going on in verse one, verse two. I have much treasure in this city for you, the Lord says, using the treasure word for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion through your instrumentality. Therefore it's expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city as you shall be led and as it shall be given you. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, and that you shall have power over it insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts, and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. What does he mean when he says, they shall not discover your secret parts? That's likely likely referring to a Hebrew idiom for being publicly humiliated. Like if you check out Isaiah 3, verse 17. Like, public humiliation is the discovery of your secret parts. So the brethren in this context may have been worried about the embarrassment linked to the failure of their plan to find treasure in Salem. Something like that.

A (15:36)

Well, it's clear that they're dealing with anxiety on a number of levels. Like, the church is unsettled in Missouri. The church is starting to really struggle in Kirtland. If you pick it up in verse six, that's the next thing that he actually says, Concern not yourselves about Zion, for I will deal mercifully with her. And that's a direct reference to Missouri. Missouri and Zion were synonymous during this time. Then he tells them, tarry in this place and in the regions round about, and the place where it is my will that ye should tarry, for the main shall be signalized unto you by the Peace and power of my spirit that shall flow unto you this place you may obtain by hire. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city, for there are more treasures than one for you in this city. He does kind of say, notwithstanding your folly, there's things that you can do here that will eventually work for good. This might be a reference to Salem and Massachusetts role in the early founding of the United States. There were in Salem's history, for example, war heroes, religious and cultural figures that date all the way back to the 17th century when the Salem witch trials happened, and a lot of literary and intellectual figures. And from Joseph Smith's assessment of the trip, what he writes about it, it appears that the Lord wanted them to learn many of the valuable and relevant historical lessons that Salem had to offer about political and religious freedom. And we're going to talk a little bit more about this in the consequences section. But he does kind of turn lemons into lemonade by saying there are things that you can learn here that will be really helpful. And they do become really helpful, especially later on in Joseph Smith's ministry. He ends by saying, therefore be ye as wise as serpents, and yet without sin, and I will order all things for your good as fast as you are able to receive them. Amen. So just a short little section, but the context here is really compelling.

B (17:24)

The revelation itself is our best historical artifact, you say? And from that we try to make sense of these other piecemeal historical contextual clues. So financial concerns, definitely. Did they get what they thought they were going to get when they went there? Apparently not. They feel a little embarrassed about that. It sounds like it. And yet the Lord says there's much here, other kinds of treasures too, that you can, that you can get from this place. So stay here a little while until you've gotten some of those treasures and then head back home. So there we go.

A (18:00)

Some of the controversies in this section are historical. Anything else, Scott, that stands out to you? Controversies about Section 111?

B (18:06)

Maybe it's not controversial, maybe it's just illustrative of something we've talked about this year as we've studied the Doctrine and Covenant, something that we've seen ever since section one, when the Lord says that he's invested in working with weak and simple and sometimes error prone servants. And he calls it a folly here in verse one. But I guess a question we could ask with this section is, were church leaders misguided when they traveled to Salem? And if so, like, why would the Lord just let his church leaders like make a mistake like this, you know, something like that.

A (18:39)

I don't know if I'd classify it as a mistake. Even if we buy full into the narrative that they were going to Salem to find buried treasure. These are people of faith, they've already witnessed it. Extraordinary events like the finding of the gold plates and angels administrations. And it would be perfectly reasonable if they saw this as like the shining salvation of the church financially. Like if everything Ebenezer Robinson said turns out to be true, I'm totally okay with it. At the same time too, the Lord has a way of taking our mistakes and turning them into instructive experiences, I guess I'd say where he can teach us a lesson. Or in the case of so many stories like this, the Lost manuscript, Zion's Camp. This trip where they were expecting one thing, but they got another, and they just really didn't quite understand exactly what they were supposed to do. But I don't think there was any ill intent on the trip. Like I don't think, for instance, they went to seek treasure so that they could personally enrich themselves. Everything we know, even from the hostile sources, seems like they were concerned about the church and the temporal well being of the church. So I don't see any negative motives here. It's a little strange for us in the 21st century that they were seeking treasure, but in the 19th century seems like that thing was fairly common, especially in the cultural regions where these men came from.

B (20:00)

Yeah, and it's clear from verse one that the Lord is not angry with them. He's not even disappointed. He says, I'm not displeased that you came here notwithstanding your folly. And I, I think that's a cool little glimpse into the character of Christ. I also think there's this other element where it's like, you know, Back to section 58, where the Lord said, I don't have to command you in all things, right? Like be anxiously engaged in a good cause and do many things of your own free will and choice. Because those who I have to command in all things the same are, how does he call them? Like unwise and slothful servants. Like, I think the Lord likes it when we take initiative and use our own brains and try to solve problems like the Lord doesn't. Again, he's not sad that they're trying to figure out like a solution to their problems. But once they get there and kind of realize their own folly and are able to learn from this experience, the Lord comforts them in verse 5 and says, don't be concerned about your debts, like, I'm going to help you through this, I promise. And verse 11, how it ends there, when he says, I will order all things for your good as fast as you're able to receive them. I'm not sad you came here. There was something for you to learn here. In fact, there's more about the history of this place you should learn before you go home. I never see the Lord, like, getting after the saints in Scripture for doing things like from a really good motive to try to move the work along, even if the Lord didn't directly inspire them to do that thing. Sometimes those efforts are work, sometimes they don't work. I don't see the Lord being disappointed here. Prophets, church leaders can do that. Like in absence of a revelation, like, do your best to build the kingdom or to solve a problem. You know, sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't, but that's okay.

A (21:32)

They took a big swing and it didn't connect, unfortunately. And that's all I see is really controversial about this section.

B (21:38)

A great little episode to, I think, instruct us, especially if we have the assumption that church leaders are always inspired in like, everything they do. Who? It's like, well, section 111 tells you no, but again, the Lord's okay with that. Like, that's not what he expects. Some really cool things do happen, which takes us to our fourth C. Consequences.

A (21:57)

The best thing this section does is really highlight the growing financial crisis that's existing in the church. In context, them going all the way to Salem kind of demonstrates the sincere desire, like we mentioned, of Joseph Smith and other leaders to try and follow the Lord's commands in order to pay their debts. Remember in section 104, 78, he tells them that they need to pay their debts and to deal justly with their creditors. So while the mission failed to locate funds to help the church, the journey to Salem does bring about some really important outcomes. And most importantly, the time that is spent in the Salem area caused Joseph Smith to begin to think deeply about the need for greater religious freedom and also the dangers of intolerance towards people of other faiths.

B (22:45)

Yeah. In fact, they were careful to follow the Lord's Command in verse 9 to inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city. Joseph and other church leaders actually spend about three weeks in the area learning about the local culture. In fact, in a letter to his brother, Oliver Cowdery shared what he had learned about the history of the Puritans in Salem, including the famous witch trials. And they also learned more about the history of the American Revolution. And they reflected on its meaning. Like after they visited Bunker Hill, the site of one of the earliest battles of the Revolution. Revolution. Here's what Oliver Cowdery wrote to his brother reflecting on this. He said, quote from this, we went to Bunker Hill, viewed the ground which on the 17th June, 1775, was drenched with blood for the liberty I enjoy. The history of this battle is so familiar in the minds of the readers of this. Of the messenger, that's a newspaper, that it would be occupying space unnecessarily to give even a detail. But judge of the feelings of my heart, when I viewed from the top of the monument, the entire theater on which was fought one of the most important battles ever recorded in history. So got them thinking about the Revolution and what that meant for where they got to be at that time.

A (23:56)

And it's kind of delightful that it's a phenomenon among church leadership and missionaries that they kind of soak in the culture of the areas they go to. And this is them connecting with their roots. And I've been to Bunker Hill, and it is powerful to go there and kind of think of the sacrifices made so that we have the freedoms that we enjoy. There's one more experience that Joseph Smith records that was maybe even more powerful on his mind, and that was when the group toured the ruins of a recently destroyed convent. It was called the Catholic Ursuline Convent. And it seems like this experience really makes an impression on Joseph Smith. This compound included a school, a chapel, other worship spaces. But anti Catholic agitators, a Protestant mobile had burned the convent to the ground. On August 11, 1834, just two years before Joseph Smith and his companions arrived in Salem, the convent was completely destroyed, despite the fact that most of the students in the school actually came from Protestant families. And the scene of the wreckage was really moving to the men who themselves had been victims of religious persecution. For instance, Oliver Cowdery writes this. He says it was a religious persecution. A disgraceful, shameful religious persecution. One or more religious societies rising up against another. Is this religion. The good people here, being very tenacious of right as well as the tradition of their ancestors, thought it doing God service to burn a Catholic convent because the Catholic religion was different from their own. I confess, I retired from the scene of Bobbery with a heavier heart than from the far famed Bunker Hill. So Oliver actually says visiting this destroyed convent affected him more than visiting the Bunker Hill battlefield.

B (25:44)

Yeah. Joseph Smith himself wrote about his reflections when he was looking at the ruins of that convent. Here's what he later wrote. Quote. Well, did the Savior say concerning such by their fruits you shall know them. And if the wicked mob who destroyed the Charleston convent and the cool calculation guiding religious lookers on who inspired their hearts with deeds of infamy do not arise and redress the wrong and restore the injured fourfold, they in turn will receive of the measure they have meted out till the just indignation of a righteous God is satisfied. When will man cease to war with man and wrest from him his sacred right of worshipping his God, according as his conscience does dictates? Holy Father, he says, hasten the day. So it's clear that Joseph and his companions gained a greater understanding and appreciation for their American heritage and religious tolerance in general. Yet they were unsuccessful at that time in preaching the Gospel in Salem. Remember that the Lord had promised them back in verse two, that there were many people in this city whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of of Zion. So they were unsuccessful in gathering anybody out. But that promise seems to have been fulfilled In September of 1841, when elders Erastus Snow and Benjamin Winchester were called to preach the Gospel in Salem. And just under a year later, like the elders, had succeeded in baptizing 90 people into the church, the local newspaper noted with alarm that, quote, mormonism is advancing with a perfect rush in the city. Close quote. So elements of this revelation began to be fulfilled right away and then other elements that took a couple years and I think we could continue to say are ongoing in that way.

A (27:32)

A few years ago, the council of 50 minutes were published. And these are minutes that contain a lot of political thinking. The Council of 50 was a deliberative body that Joseph Smith used during his run for president in 1844. There is one theme that stands out really strongly, and that was that Joseph Smith was upset, and so were the Saints, by the way, religious freedom had failed to be protected in the United States. I can see this what happens in section 111 as a seed, where Joseph Smith starts to say, hey, it's not just us. It's any group that's othered and persecuted and harmed because of their religious beliefs. Because in the council of 50 minutes he says stuff like, I'm willing to stand up and give my life for not just a Latter Day Saint, but a Catholic or a Protestant. He mentions a whole bunch of religions. And I got to imagine, imagine that seeing what he saw during this Trip probably affected him deeply.

B (28:26)

I haven't made that connection before with section 111. I like that a lot. I think that's true. He will be a fierce defender of religious freedom by the time we get to Nauvoo. Well, that is section 111 in a nutshell. So with that, let's move on to section 112. So, Casey, drop us into the immediate context of section 112. What do we need to know about this?

A (28:53)

So if section 111 is sort of a prelude to the Kirtland crisis, where we see the first danger inching in, Section 112 is probably the best section to illustrate what happened in Kirtland, the apostasy that causes it to be abandoned as a meaningful church Center. Section 112 is a revelation given to Thomas B. Marsh, who is the original president of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. Apostles, we've talked about this at length. But yeah, Brigham Young wasn't the original president of the Quorum of the twelve. Thomas B. Marsh was. This section was given at a time when there was growing dissent in Kirtland, and even Thomas B. Marsh, this leader of the quorum of the 12, was struggling. So Thomas B. Marsh, along with other apostles David W. Patton and William Smith, had journeyed from Far West Missouri to Kirtland to address concerns among members of the 12th. And when Thomas B. Martin Marsh and everybody else traveling with him makes it to Kirtland, they found that Joseph Smith had sent Heber C. Kimball and Orson Hyde to other members of the 12 across the Atlantic to open Great Britain to the preaching of the gospel. And this really upsets Thomas B. Marsh because he believed it was his responsibility to direct the 12 and taking the Gospel to other nations. And he seems to have been frustrated, frustrated over Joseph Smith's decision to send missionaries to England without consulting with them first. Here's a little backstory to the backstory. Contrary to Marsh's expectations, a month earlier, Joseph Smith had felt inspired to call Heber C. Kimball on a mission to England. And Heber C. Kimball later writes, On Sunday, the 4th day of June, 1837, the Prophet Joseph Smith came to me while I was seated in the front of the stand above the sacrament table on the Melchizedek side side of the temple in Kirtland. And whispering to me, said brother Heber, the Spirit of the Lord has whispered to me, let my servant Heber go to England and proclaim my gospel and open the door of salvation to that nation. Part of the revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 1:12 addresses this issue, which is the relationship between the 12 in the First Presidency and how they work in the church. And I'll just add, this mission that Heber C. Kimball, the Morrison Hyde, go on is huge, hugely consequential. The British influence on the church is big in the 19th century and right down till today. We've done a couple videos on scripture central that you can go see where we visited some of the places Heber went on this mission. But that's part of the issue is okay, who's in charge of the 12? The first presidency or the president of the 12? Which seems weird to us today, but remember, these organizations were less than 2 years old at this time and a lot of this stuff hadn't been worked out yet.

B (31:25)

And this revelation is also going to address the growing dissension in the church in Kirtland, especially among among the upper echelons of church leadership. Like in late 1836, the Prophet and other church leaders had another idea of how to help the church get out of debt. That's when they launched what's called the Kirtland Safety Society, which was a church owned financial institution, kind of like a bank that they hoped would alleviate some of the financial anxieties of the saints. Instead, what happens is a perfect storm of organized opposition, inexperienced mismanagement of bonds, and to top it all off, a nationwide financial panic that leads to the failure of the Safety Society in just a few months after it opens. Let me just run you through a quick timeline. So it opens really officially January 1837. Okay. Shortly after it opens, this guy named Grandison Newell, who's an anti LDS agitator, he starts hoarding banknotes from the Safety System Society. And then he'll bring his, his stack of notes and demand cash in return. Like they call this doing runs on the bank. Right. He starts doing these runs on the bank. Add to that the fact that several stockholders had neglected to make payments on their shares to try to help the bank maintain its gold and silver reserves. Add to that the fact that local newspapers were starting to write articles casting doubt on the bank's legitimacy and that many workers and businesses in and around Kirtland are refusing to accept Safety Society notes. The bills. Right. With that you can see that this poor start is going to start to erode confidence in the bank and it actually starts to shake the faith of some that they had in the spiritual leadership of Joseph Smith, which had spurred on their investment in the first place. Right. That Joseph had encouraged people to invest in his bank Add to all of that the Panic of 1837. This was a nationwide panic out. Out of 850 banks in the United States, like 343 closed entirely, 62 failed partially, and the system of state banks receives a shock from which it never fully recovers. All of this financial strain is happening in 1837. And the financial losses and losses of confidence in Joseph Smith's spiritual leadership among some of the leaders of the church, even members of the 12, caused serious problems. Problems I'm talking about members of the 12 like John F. Boynton, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, even Parley P. Pratt and others are going to struggle during this time. They're even going to start speaking out against the Prophet Joseph Smith. Vilate Kimball, who's the wife of Heber C. Kimball, who's the one that was sent on the mission, she writes a letter to her husband about what's going on in Kirtland, and she recognizes the validity of some of the concerns of the dissenters. But she does question their methods. Like, here's what she writes. It's just written so perfectly. She says to her husband, Heber, quote, now after all that I have said about this dissenting party, there are some of them that I love and have great feeling and pity for them. I know they've been tried to the very quick. And what grieves me the most of all is that many things which they tell, I have no doubt. But what they are too true. Still, I do not think they are justifiable in the course course they have taken. So we'll talk more about the course they had taken. But it includes rebellion against the Prophet.

A (34:41)

Well done, by the way. A relatively brief breakdown on how this was like the perfect storm. Everything on a national, on a local, on an individual level kind of came together to cause major strife in Kirtland. We could geek out and maybe do an entire series on just the Kirtland and apostasy. There's so much interesting stuff that happens here. But keeping our focus on section 112, those are the circumstances. That's what happens when Thomas B. Marsh approaches Joseph Smith directly to try and work through some of these challenges. So in the midst of their discussion, section 112 is received. In fact, this revelation was originally written down by Thomas B. Marsh himself. Though that copy was lost, the revelation was considered so important that it was hand copied, copied by several members of the 12, including Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff, and it was first put into the 1844 edition of the Doctrine Covenants. So this is especially important to the apostles. This is a revelation that they take very seriously, and that has big implications for them, too. So let's talk content. Scott, walk us through the content content of section 112, verse 1.

B (35:56)

Here's how the Lord begins. To Thomas B. Marsh. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant, Thomas. I have heard thy prayers, and thine alms have come up as a memorial before me in behalf of those thy brethren who were chosen to bear testimony of my name and to send it abroad among all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and ordained through the instrumentality of my servants. That's a really long way of saying the 12 apostles, right? I have heard your prayers. As you've been praying for your brethren in the 12 who are struggling, I've heard your prayers, Thomas, verse 2. Verily I say unto you, there have been some few things in thine heart and with thee, with which I the Lord was not well pleased. This might be a reference to his angst against Joseph Smith for sending apostles on missions without consulting him that rubbed him. Imran, verse 3. Nevertheless, inasmuch as thou hast abased thyself, thou shalt be exalted. Therefore all thy sins are forgiven thee. Wow. So in the midst of this storm, like Thomas was humbling himself, which, by the way, is a crucial spiritual survival strategy. He could have reacted so pridefully and so harsh at this time, but he humbles himself and the Lord forgives him his sins for that. Verse 4. Let thy heart be of good cheer before my face, and thou shalt bear record of mine name not only unto the Gentiles, but also unto the Jews. And thou shalt send forth my word unto the ends of the earth. That's the role of the president of the quorum of the 12, right to oversee the 12 and sending them out, and sending the word of God out to the ends of the earth. Now, verse 5. Contend thou, therefore, morning by morning and day after day, let thy warning voice go forth. And when the night cometh, let not the inhabitants of the earth slumber because of the thy speech. Keep people up at night because of the sermons that you give. That's a cool verse. Verse 6. Let thy habitation be known in Zion and remove not thy house, for I, the Lord, have a great work for thee to do in publishing my name among the children of men. So the Lord's really leaning in here on the mission that Thomas B. Marsh has as the president of the quorum of the 12.

A (37:59)

Yeah. In fact, he states these things, and then he gives them several promises. Pick it up in verse 7. Therefore gird up thy loins for the work. Let thy feet be shod also, for thou art chapter chosen, and thy path lieth among the mountains and among many nations. By thy word many high ones shall be brought low, and by thy word many low ones shall be exalted. Thy voice shall be a rebuke unto the transgressor. And at thy rebuke let the tongue of the slanderer cease its perverseness. And what's going to be the key to his success? Verse 10. Be thou humble, and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand and give thee answer to thy prayers. I almost started to sing the song when that came in, but let's look at the stakes. All right. Thomas B. Marsh is the original president of the quorum of the 12. In this dispensation, if everything had gone according to plan, if he had remained in that position, it is fairly likely that he would have succeeded Joseph Smith as the president of the church. And had this happened, his name would probably be as well known as Brad Brigham Young as Brigham Young's is today. In fact, his gradual slide into apostasy is kind of best captured by the Lord saying to him, be thou humble. And if you remember, there's an earlier section, section 31, where Thomas was just considering joining the church, where the Lord tells him, be patient in your afflictions and revile not against those that revile.

B (39:22)

He kind of had a tendency, it sounds like, huh. He had a tendency to maybe be a little prideful, to be a little. Little peppy and pushing back against people who he disagreed with.

A (39:32)

Thomas B. Marsh mentions this when he comes back into the church almost two decades later. Just a little bit more background. After Joseph received section 112, Marsh took these instructions from the Lord seriously. In fact, Heber C. Kimball later remembered that Marsh read this revelation to him and Brigham Young remembering this is Heber's words. In it, God told him what to do, and that was to sustain Brother Joseph and to believe that what Brother Joseph said was true. In the months following this revelation, Thomas B. Marsh does make a genuine effort to increase the unity in his Quorum and to support the Prophet. However, there's a series of events that sort of eventually lead to his estrangement from the Church. Again, spoiler. If he does apostatize, he doesn't take Joseph Smith's place. One story that's told often and maybe is a little overblown, but is perhaps illustrative is the famous cream stripping story. It gets told in General Conference every now and then and probably takes place later around August or September 1838. So let's put this in. In context. Around a year after all this stuff has happened. According to the story, Marsh's wife Elizabeth got embroiled in a controversy with Lucinda Harris, who was the wife of George W. Harris. The two women had an agreement to share milk from their cows for making cheese. Lucinda accused Elizabeth Marsh of keeping the cream strippings considered the best part of the milk for her stuff herself. And the argument was mediated by a series of church officials, with Marsh even appealing to the First Presidency, who then sustained the early rulings that Elizabeth Marsh was in the wrong. And Thomas B. Marsh was apparently so infuriated that he was said to have stated, quote, that he would sustain the character of his wife even if he had to go to hell for it. Now, I want to emphasize Thomas B. Marsh's apostle apostasy is way more complex than just this story. And this story, which is told later on by George A. Smith, becomes kind of the reason given why he apostatized. But his pride is evident in the statement he makes in the story. The story isn't the only reason, but it's often told and was told by the early leaders of the church because it was illustrative of what the guy was actually like. Like how he reacted, generally speaking.

B (41:41)

Yeah. And shortly after that incident, like, Marsh will leave Far west with his family and he'll start speaking out publicly against the church. This is where it gets really bad. Like, at the time, the Saints were in the midst of a rising series of conflicts with other settlers in Northern Missouri. That's going to culminate what we call the. The Mormon Missouri War. It's going to lead to Joseph being betrayed and put into liberty jail and, you know, upload all of that church history that's coming up here on the horizon. Well, Marsh actually contributed to some of that. He actually swore out an affidavit against the church leaders in that area in which he accused them of instigating violence. He claimed that church leaders said, and I quote him, all the Mormons who refused to take up arms, if necessary, in difficulties with the citizens should be shot or otherwise put to death. And he charged that, quote, no Mormon dissenter should leave Caldwell county alive. That's what church leaders were saying. They're threatening the lives of church dissenters at, etc. So the accusations made by Thomas B. Marsh actually contribute to the horrific persecutions that the church Will suffer in Missouri in 1838. 39 contributes to Joseph Smith and some of his companions being put in liberty jail for like five months. Like Marsh hurt the church deeply here, he turns against the church at the most vulnerable time for the prophet and the saints there. And needless to say, it wounds the church dead deeply. Now, after making those accusations, Marsh will leave. He becomes estranged from the church for nearly 20 years. But when he. When he finally comes back to the church in 1857, he comes out to Utah and Brigham Young actually invites him to speak in general conference. And this is when he stands up and explains why he really left the church. Listen carefully to his words. He said, quote, I became jealous of the prophet, he said, and then I saw double and overlooked everything that was right and spent all my time in looking for the evil. He says, and then when the devil began to lead me, it was easy for the carnal mind to rise up, which is anger, jealousy, and wrath. I could feel it within me. He said, I felt angry and wrathful. I got mad and I wanted everybody else to be mad. This is what was happening underneath the surface, right? So the reason that we often give is this milk stripping story. That's not the whole story, not even most of the story. That's like symptomatic of something much deeper. In fact, he said in that conference talk, he said, I talked with brother Brigham and Brother Heber and I wanted them to be mad like myself. And I saw they were not mad, and I got madder still because they were not. Brother Brigham, with a cautious look, said to me, are you the leader of the church, Brother Thomas? I answered, no. Well then, said he, why do you not let that all alone, Close quote. So we see this real issue that's happening is this jealousy, anger, wrath that really turned him against the prophet.

A (44:31)

I just feel so bad sometimes that we oversimplify a complicated person. So the most common reason given is the cream strippings incident, which makes him look really petty and probably is just illustrative of him being a little prideful generally at the time he leaves the church. His stated reason is his concerns over rising violence in the church, which, if we look at the entire historical record, are kind of valid. Like, Sidney Rigdon was making pretty broad threats against other people. We've had it up to here. But then when he comes back in his own words, his assessment of his apostasy is that he was jealous of Joseph Smith. And it sort of spiraled into him being critical. So I don't want to turn him into a caricature. He's a really important figure in church history, and maybe we owe him a little, little bit more than just to tell the cream stripping story, which is admittedly really fun, and move on.

B (45:20)

Let's let people be complicated. Let's let people be complex that are a lot like us.

A (45:25)

Absolutely. So let's don't oversimplify, even if it is kind of fun to do so. Picking it up in verse 11 I know thy heart. I have heard thy prayers concerning thy brethren. Be not partial towards them in love above many others, but let thy love be for them as for thyself, and let thy love abound unto all, all men, and unto all who love my name and pray for thy brethren of the 12. Admonish them sharply for my name's sake, and let them be admonished for all their sins, and be ye faithful before me, unto my name, and after their temptations and much tribulation. Behold, I the Lord will feel after them, and if they harden not their hearts and stiffen not their necks against me, they shall be converted, and I will heal them. Then he adds, now I say unto you, and what I say unto you, I say unto all the 12. So this part is going not just to him, but all the the 12 arise and gird up your loins, take up your cross, follow me and feed my sheep. Exalt not yourselves. Rebel not against my servant Joseph. For verily I say unto you, I am with him, and my hand will be over him, and the keys which I have given unto him also to youward shall not be taken from him until I come. This is a prelude that there's not only going to be problems with Thomas B. Marsh, but problems with the 12. In fact, the strife that infects the Church during the curse apostasy during 1837 came particularly from members of the Twelve. So the Lord's asking Thomas B. Marsh, as president of the 12, to admonish the other apostles for their sins and to try and help them find the proper path to repentance. So just to illustrate one of my Church history heroes I love this guy Parley P. Pratt nearly apostatizes from the Church, and he writes a pretty detailed autobiography where he goes into detail about his process of apostasy. Let me read an excerpt from this. So Parley P. Pratt just recently come back from Canada. He says, after I'd returned from Canada, there were jarrings and discords in the church at Kirtland, and many fell away and became enemies and apostates. There were Also envyings, lying, strife and divisions, which caused much trouble and sorrow. And at this time, I also was overcome by the same spirit in a great measure. And it seemed as if the very powers of d darkness, which war against the Saints, were let loose upon me. So he's saying, even I got caught up in this stuff. And this is another figure, Parley P. Pratt, who we don't want to oversimplify. I think his story, more than anything, kind of illustrates. Oof. There was real reason for some people to be upset during the apostasy in Kirtland.

B (47:55)

Yeah. And the specifics of what happened, as far as we can tell, dealt with, again, the financial issues going on in Kirtland. Like, apparently, Parley had had previously borrowed $2,000 from the Kirtland bank to buy land and to build his home. And Joseph Smith had apparently assured Parley that he would not get hurt in this deal. But then Joseph Smith sold his loan to the bank, and now Sidney Rigdon came knocking on his door and said that the loan was now due. So when Parley said he didn't have the money, Sidney apparently suggested that he would need to give up his land and house to pay that $2,000 back. That's when Parley kind of went berserk. He wrote an open letter to Joseph and Sidney in his own words, quote, in great severity and harshness, censuring them both in regard to certain business transactions. But to his credit, during the time of his greatest darkness, he was pulled back from the brink of apostasy when he interacts with one of his recent converts, a British convert. We know this man's name. His name is John Taylor. Not that Parley had gone to England. It's that John Taylor had moved to Canada, and Parley had been up to Canada and taught a group of people there called the Seekers. John Taylor was one of this group, another familiar name. A guy named Joseph Fielding and other British converts had converted. And now here comes John Taylor down to Kirtland to come in and visit the Saints and see what's going on. And visit Parley P. Pratt as Michigan missionarian. And he catches Parley in the midst of Parley's turmoil about all this. And Parley starts to criticize Joseph Smith and starts to just air out all of his laundry about Joseph and John Taylor. I love this. He spoke to Parley very directly. And this shows you the character of John Taylor, future third president of the church, but convert of six months at this point. Here's what he says. Quote, I'm surprised to Hear you speak so, Brother Parley, before you left Canyon, Canada, you bore a strong testimony to Joseph Smith being a prophet of God and to the truth of the work he has inaugurated. And you say you knew these things by revelation and the gift of the Holy Ghost. You gave to me a strict charge to the effect that though you or an angel from heaven was to declare anything else, I was not to believe it. Now, Brother Parley, it is not man that I am following, but the Lord. And then he says, the principles you taught me led me to. To him. And I now have the same testimony that you then rejoiced in. If the work was true six months ago, he said, it's true today. And if Joseph Smith was then a prophet, he's now a prophet. Booyah. Those words caused Parley some pause, and it actually brought him to repentance. And Parley humbled himself and went and talked to Joseph Smith directly. In fact, his own words were, quote, I went to brother Joseph Smith in tears. Tears and with a broken heart and contrite spirit confessed wherein I had erred in spirit, murmured or done or said amiss. And then he said, joseph frankly forgave me, prayed for me, and blessed me. Thus by experience I learned more fully to discern and to contrast the two spirits and to resist the one and cleave to the other. And being tempted in all points even as others, I learned how to bear with and excuse and succor those who are tempted. Close quote. What a mature conclusion.

A (51:17)

I love that story. And we should state that Parley P. Pratt and John Taylor are like best friends. For the rest of their lives. They go on a mission to England. Together they write each other poems on their 50th birthdays, which, you know, not a lot of men write. Write poetry to other men. We need to bring that back. Scott, when you turn 50, I'm going to write you a. A poem. Just like John Taylor did for Parliament. Let's jump back into the verses. Verse 16. Verily I say unto you, my servant Thomas. So directing it back towards Thomas B. Marsh. Thou art the man whom I have chosen to hold the keys of my kingdom as pertaining to the 12 abroad among all nations, that thou mayest be my servant to unlock the door of the kingdom in all places where my servant Joseph and my servant Sidney and my servant Hyrum cannot come. For on them have I laid the burden of all the churches for a little season. Wherefore whithersoever they shall send you. Go ye, and I will be with you. And whatsoever place ye shall proclaim my name, an effectual door shall be opened unto you that they may receive my word. Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me and whosoever receiveth me receiveth those the First Presidency whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name's sake unto you. So after he addresses the quorum of the 12, he goes back and affirms firms Thomas P. Marsh's role as the leader of the quorum of the 12, as the holder of the keys of the kingdom, and his responsibility to direct the work of the quorum. You can see that in verse 16. But the Lord also affirmed that the Quorum, and by extension all organizations in the church, act under the direction of the First Presidency, who in turn act under the lord's direct supervision. That's in verse 20. This clarification was an important addition to understand quorum responsibilities, because earlier in section 107 it said that the first presidency and the 12 were equal in authority and power. That's in section 107. 24 so Thomas wasn't totally going off the reservation today. It seems like you'd have to be so audacious to go in and rebuke the President of the church. But not all this was clear. It hadn't been completely worked out. Section 112 therefore affirms that that direction to the Church comes through the First Presidency and that the Quorum of the Twelfth serve under their direction. It was kind of an important clarification, and as President of the Twelve, Thomas B. Marsh was expected to direct his Quorum. But the First Presidency also had the right to do things that they were led to by Revelation, like call Heber C. Kimball and Orson Hyde and other missionaries to go to Great Britain or to give the apostles counsel on how they can carry out the work. For example, in the next few verses he outlines Thomas roles in a Little bit further he says, and again I say unto you that whosoever ye shall send in my name by the voice of your brethren, the 12 duly recommended and authorized by you, shall have power to open the door of my kingdom unto any nation whithersoever ye shall send them, inasmuch as they humble themselves before me and abide in my word and hearken to the voice of my Spirit. So important clarifications that we sometimes just take for granted in the Church today, but hadn't quite been spelled out yet.

B (54:18)

By the way, verse 21 is the justification for why our mission calls today are extended by members of the quorum of the 12 and then signed off by the President of the Church. That's the prerogative of the President of the Twelve and the Quorum of the Twelve under his direction, which we see that played out all the time, as missionaries are called throughout the world. Next verse is verse 23. Verily, verily I say unto you, darkness covereth the the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people and all flesh has become corrupt before my face. Paraphrasing biblical passages here, verse 24. Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth. A day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, of lamentation, and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord. Again, an affirmation that he has brought up ever since section one of the Doctrines, Doctrine and Covenants. There is calamity coming upon the inhabitants of the earth. Therefore I need to send my servants out throughout the world to prepare a people. The little twist that happens here is in verse 25, he says, and upon my house shall it, meaning the calamity here begin. And from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord. First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. What's he talking about here? This is. This is definitely historically relevant to this time when he says, there are some of you who have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house. So, for example, for the backstory. So rewind just a little bit. Before the Kirtland Safety Society failed, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon had temporarily shut it down and traveled to Michigan in order to obtain what they called the Monroe Charter, which would allow them essentially to partner with an established bank there and give them more legitimacy so that people were confident in using Kirtland banknotes. But while Joseph Smith was gone in Michigan, a meeting was held in the Kirtland Temple to put David Whitmer as the president of the church and to kick Joseph smith out. And three of the members of the quorum of the 12 were in on this meeting. They were the ones that started it. But they made a big mistake, Casey. They made a huge mistake. And that was they invited Brigham Young Young to an anti Joseph Smith meeting.

A (56:34)

Big mistake.

B (56:35)

Don't invite Brigham Young to anti Joseph Smith meetings. It just will never work. As they started to make their case as to why David Whitmer should lead us now and that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet. In the midst of that, Brigham Young, he couldn't stand it anymore. In his own words that he told us about later, he said something close to this quote. He rose up and in a plain and forcible manner, told them that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that Brigham knew it. He. He said. And that they might rail and slander Joseph as much as they please, but they could not destroy the appointment of the prophet of God. They could only destroy their own authority, he said, cut the thread that bound them to the prophet and to God and sink themselves to hell. And then he said, this meeting was broken up without the apostates being able to unite on any decided measures of opposition. This was a crisis, he said, when earth and hell seemed leagued to overthrow the prophet and church of God, the knees of many of the strongest men in the church faltered. During this siege of darkness, I stood close by Joseph and with all the wisdom and power God bestowed upon me, put forth my utmost energies to sustain the servant of God and unite the quorums of the church. So this may be what verse 26 is referring to. To this. This moment when they blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. They have professed to know my name, but they have not known me. These members of the 12 right, who were supposed to be special witnesses of the name of the Lord, but instead, they're in the Lord's house, blaspheming that name. So pretty. Pretty brutal here.

A (58:11)

That's got to be the classic Brigham Young story, right? And there's so many little details. Like, he says that a man who was a. An old pugilist, which was like a retired boxer, jumped up and tried to fight him and everything like that, too. All right, so picking it up in verse 27, therefore see to it that you trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord. Thomas B. Marsh's stewardship, based on the rules in section 107, weren't to tell Joseph Smith how to run the church in Kirtland. The 12 were a traveling high council that operated where there were no other stakes. Where there weren't stakes, basically. So the Lord's gently stuck, saying, this really isn't your business, but purify your hearts before me and go ye into all the world and preach the gospel unto every creature that has not received it. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. And he that Believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. For unto you the 12 and those the first presidency who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders is the power of priesthood given for the last days and for the last time in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of time times which power you hold in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation. For verily I say unto you, the keys of the dispensation which ye have received have come down from the fathers, and last of all, being sent down from heaven unto you. Verily I say unto you, how great is your calling. Cleanse your hearts and your garments, lest the blood of this generation be required at your hands. Be faithful until I come, for I come quickly. And my reward is with me to recompense every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega.

B (59:49)

Amen.

A (59:50)

So lands the plane by emphasizing what the role of the 12 is supposed to be and then assuring them that their calling is great, that Thomas B. Marsh is doing an important thing, but that he needs to operate within the responsibilities that the Lord has given him. So, Scott, let's talk controversies with section 112. Why was the Kirland apostasy so severe? So what caused it? The apostasy in Kirtland, and why was it so bad?

B (60:22)

Okay, I want you to imagine. All right, next General Conference, President Russell M. Nelson stands up and says, brothers and sisters, we are pleased to announce that the church is going to sponsor a bank. And we encourage you, brothers and sisters, to invest your money in this bank. Like, how many people do you think would actually do that if President Nelson asked him to?

A (60:42)

You know, a fair number. I would venture to say it would be shocking if President Nelson did that, probably for some of the reasons we're going to discuss today. But I mean, I, I'd be intrigued.

B (60:55)

Yeah, I, I think most members of the church would be like, okay, yeah, I mean, the prophet's asking us to do this and so let's, let's do it. And then suppose that there is a national like recession or depression and banks fell all over the country, including this church sponsored bank, and church members lose a ton of money. Do you think members of the church would be mad at President Nelson for inviting them to invest in that bank? I think so. And that is exactly the scenario that played out Kirtland. That's it. So Joseph Smith did not stand up and say, hey, if you invest in this Bank. I promise you're going to make a ton of money. I promise that you're going to be financially secure. I promise that you'll never lose any money. I promise that the economy is going to be great. He didn't do any of that. But there is this underlying assumption that church members have. I think I have it too, Casey. As I look at my heart, this assumption is that true prophets don't endorse banks that fail. Nobody taught us that. That in, like, Sunday school or. There's never been a general conference talk that says that. But there's these assumptions that we have about prophets that seem to like, shore up that idea that a prophet wouldn't ask us to do something that would end up like, not ending well, you know, but that's what happened in Kirtland. So why was the Kirtland apostasy so severe? Well, a lot of people got affected by the loss of money. And more importantly, like, the more fundamental, like, thing that's happening in internally, psychologically, is that assumptions about the prophet were severely violated, shattered. Right. Like their expectations of what should have happened didn't occur. And therefore, I think it's. It's sent a lot of people reeling. And many of those were leaders in the church who had invested money. And by the way, Joseph Smith lost a ton of money as well. Like everyone lost money in this. And a lot of the factors were out of his control. And it's not the prophet making some failed prophecies prophecy, but there's just this assumption that the prophet invited us and encouraged us to invest and we did, and then we got hurt. So maybe he's not a true prophet. Right. It started to SAP confidence in the prophet. So at a fundamental level, I would, I would, I would highlight failed expectations, failed assumptions about the prophet as like, the fundamental reason. I don't know. What would you say to respond to that question?

A (63:10)

It's challenging, right? Money can really make things go sour. And sometimes the most famous faithful person can be tested when things financially don't work out their way. Now, I am not defending those who apostatized in Kirtland, but there are sources that indicate, for example, in December 1836, and I'm drawing from the wonderful article in the Kirtland Safety Society that's on church history topics in the Gospel Library. Sidney Rigdon wrote an editorial where he discussed the wealth that the saints would need to take the gospel throughout the world to fulfill the prophecy about the beauty of Zion and argued that the Lord would bless the saints industry with prosperity. That was in the messenger and Advocate, Volume 3, Number 3, Pages 4, 1723. And also at a conference held in the Kirtland Temple, April 6, 1837, Joseph Smith described a prosperous, growing future for Kirtland. And here's the words as it was given him by vision. And both Hyrum Smith and Sidney Rigdon taught that if the Saints would be faithful and work hard, Kirtland would become a safe and secure place. So on the one hand, I mean there's, there's always this. Prophets foresee the future, but promises can be conditional. Like I've seen some people point to section 101 where the Lord told them, I need you to gather, but don't gather in haste and don't gather before you're ready to gather. And that might be the cause of the problems that happened in Kirtland is that they didn't really follow that counsel. At the same time too, I think there may have been some over promising by the leaders of the church, in particular the First Presidency. And again, someone like Parley P. Pratt. We talked about his, his apostasy. We didn't mention things like, not only did he lose a lot of money, but his wife had died in childbirth and he was very ill too. He was going through some serious stuff when all this occurred. So I don't have a desire to judge anybody too harshly when we talk about this. I think we need to do the work to try and understand it and why it was so severe. At the same time too, there were some people like Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball who came through through this relatively unscathed. And others like, well, I mean, the first apostles to follow here are the Johnson brothers, Luke and Lyman Johnson. Unfortunately, John Johnson, that wonderful man who put up Joseph Smith in his home for a year, apostatizes during this time too. And then others like William McClellan who not only leave the church but become antagonists towards the church that turn into anti Mormons. So as you and I have looked at this, I, I think we can say it was a tough trial for many members of the church. And like you mentioned, especially for the leadership of the church, not just the members of the church.

B (65:46)

Yeah. And I think what's most instructive about this whole episode is like if you kind of strip all the particulars out, you see this interesting pattern that plays out still today in apostasy when people leave the church. It's that we have assumptions, right. Like I thought X was true, but then something happened where I found out that X is not true. And now I feel frustrated. I feel disoriented. I feel like maybe I can't trust the sources I used to trust. Right? And then you come to this moment of, like, decision, this, like, choice that you have to go one way or the other. Like, I can be angry and deflated and give up. I can callously mournfully throw out everything that I thought I believed. Or on the other hand, you could be a seeker. You know, you could go back to the best sources and try to work on your assumptions again. Like, is that really true? Can prophets not make mistakes like that? Let me go to the Scriptures. Like, oh, my gosh, they make mistakes a lot. Like, Jesus is often rebuking Peter and the 12 and, like, trying to help him to, like, get their act together and. Or to do a section 112 is saying in verse 10, like, you can humble yourself. You can be really, really prayerful to ask the Lord to help you as you work through modifying your assumptions in light of this new experience that you're having that has hurt your faith. Right. Like, I want to. I want to highlight Brigham Young here. I think he's such a good example of this. He went through the same stuff, but he didn't turn out to be an apostate. Why not? Well, because he had this going on. He had humility, and he had this ability to update his assumptions quickly. Like, for instance, later on in Salt Lake, he's going to reflect back back on this time period, and he's going to say this. He says, quote, I can tell the people that once in my life, I felt a want of confidence in Brother Joseph Smith. He said it wasn't concerning religious matters. It wasn't about his revelations. It was in relation to his financiering, to his managing the temporal affairs which he undertook, like, financially. Right. He said. He said a feeling came over me that Joseph was not right in his financial management. Though I presume the feeling did not last 60 seconds and perhaps not 30. But that feeling came on me once and once only, from the time I first knew him to the day of his death. Now watch what he says happened. He said, I repented of my unbelief, and that too very suddenly. I repented about as quickly as I committed the error. And watch, watch his mental moves. He said it was not for me to question whether Joseph was dictated by the Lord at all times and under all circumstances or not. He was called of God. God dictated him. And if God had a mind to leave Joseph to himself and let him commit an error that was no business of mine. He said, it's not my prerogative to call him in question with regard to any act of his life. He's God's servant, not mine. So that's interesting, right? Because Brigham Young had the same assumption, right? True prophets don't make financial errors. But then the reality was he saw Joseph making financial errors, Errors. And then he had a choice to make. He could ditch everything that he believed about the prophet, or he could update his understanding. That's what he did, right? He said, basically this, oh, looks like my assumption was wrong. I will recalibrate. And he did. And Brigham Young was fine. But by the way, in the background, he also said that during this time, he was praying intensely. He said, let me quote one more from him. He said, quote, during this siege of darkness, I stood close by Joseph, and with all the wisdom and power God bestowed upon me, I put forth my utmost energy to sustain the servant of God. I could not sleep those days. I spent many a night, all night, without sleeping at all. I prayed a good deal. Close quote. So there's that combination of the humility that comes from prayer and this, like, mental flexibility to be able to, like, adjust your assumptions in light of new information that I think saved Brigham Young. I think it saved Hebrews Kimball. I think it helped parley P. Pratt. Even though he kind of started going down that dark rabbit hole, like, it helped bring him back as John Taylor is. Like, if he was a prophet then, isn't he a prophet now? Like, can't prophets make some mistakes? And I think that's what's most valuable for me, Casey, is. As I look at this, it's like, wow. I see people leave the church today. You do, too. We see friends, we see loved ones. We see students. Sometimes not as many as sometimes people think is happening, but it happens still. And. And I see the same pattern. I thought X, though. Then X didn't happen. Right? There's kind of this, like, callousness, this hardness, kind of the Thomas B. Marsh, the anger or the wrath. Right? And instead of updating their assumptions and adjusting it, they instead, you know, become wrathful, and they throw out everything that they used to hold so dear. And so it's really a choice. It's how you handle information. It's the state of your heart, your ability to be humble in the midst of difficult things and to allow the Lord to help you work through that, to allow robust sources, like solid history sources, solid scripture, to help you work through some of these assumptions that you may have had. Those are my thoughts on, like, the. The lessons of this. They're so valuable. That's why I think it's so worth talking about. Like, because apostasy is not going away, people are still going to leave the church. And it almost always follows this pattern. I thought X, then I learned X wasn't true. Something violated that assumption. And therefore, in some ways, this has.

A (70:58)

Become the classic apostasy episode. And again, it can be about examining your assumptions and gaining a mature testimony of the gospel, which means you do see the church leaders as human, as people that can make mistakes. And I don't know if the Kirtland bank was a mistake, but definitely there were negative outcomes that happened there, there. And it's okay for us to look at that today and say, yeah, they may have made some mistakes.

B (71:23)

Okay, what were the consequences or the outcomes of section 112?

A (71:33)

Section 112 ends with a plea for the 12 to accept the leadership of the First Presidency as their counselors and leaders. That's verse 30. It's really difficult then as well as now to document House of apostasy is. But if we're looking at kind of the numbers here, the apostasy in Kirtland becomes so severe that Joseph Smith and most of the faithful members of the church who live in Kirtland are forced to leave. One estimate said that about 2 or 300 members of the church apostatized. That represents about 10 to 15% of the total membership in Kirtland. And like you mentioned earlier, the toll was even higher among the general authorities of the church. About one third of the general authorities of the church were excommunicated. They were disfellowshipped, or they were removed from their callings during this apostasy. And if you're counting the months following Joseph Smith's departure from Kirtland, we're talking Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris, the three witnesses, four apostles. That's John F. Boynton, Lyman E. Johnson, Luke s. Johnson, William McClellan, and one member of the first presidency, that was Frederick G. Williams. Now, if we're following further down the road, about half of those who were excommunicated, disfellowshipped, or removed from the records of the church do come back later on. Some like David Whitmer and Lyman Johnson and William McClellan never come back. Others like Thomas B. Marsh. Thomas B. Marsh spent 20 years outside the church, but returned in 1857 after the death of his wife. So Elizabeth passes away. He's also in ill health. He comes back, and we quoted this earlier, but he addresses the own cause of his apostasy, where he just basically says he became jealous of Joseph Smith. That's in the end, his diagnosis of why he left. Tying this Back to section 112, imagine that after Thomas B. Marsh comes back to the church, Brigham Young is there. Brigham Young's on the stand. Brigham Young is the president of the church. During this time, Brigham Young also rises and asks for a vote from the congregation to accept Brother Marsh back into full fellowship among the Saints. And not a single person raised a hand in opposition. And let me just add one more thing. There's also, according to the records of Thomas B. Marsh's return, some ribbing that happens here. Brigham Young, for instance, talks about the physical effects of apostasy and notes that he's hale and hearty. But there is a beautiful note that Brigham Young and Thomas B. Marsh later set down in his office and reminisced about old times and sang a hymn together. So there is reconciliation. I hope that when a person comes back to the church, we don't do anything to exacerbate old wounds. But if we're staying faithful and are on the path, we can rejoice when anybody comes back to the church.

B (74:18)

I am struck, Casey, by how simple the Lord's solution is to the challenge of pride that Thomas B. Marsh was facing and that so many apostates face and that so many people face today. The challenge of, you know how that manifests with anger and wrath and jealousy and whatever. Back to verse 10. The Lord said, be thou humble, and the Lord thy God will lead thee by the hand and give the answer to thy prayers. I'm struck by how when Jesus visited the Nephites and Lamanites in. In the book of Mormon, third Nephi 18, he calls 12. And to the 12 he says this. He says, verily I say unto you, you must watch and pray always, lest you be tempted by the devil and ye be led away captive. He's like warning his 12. And then after he warns the 12, he turns to the congregation and says, you too. You must watch and pray always, lest ye enter into temptation. For Satan desires to have you that he may sift you as wheat. I'm just struck like how the Lord says, please remember to pray. Watch and pray. Watch yourself. Sure. Watch your thoughts. Yes. Watch your assumptions for sure. And pray. Watch and pray. That's what you he tells. Tells. That's what he tells Thomas. I know that's not an answer that anyone who's struggling. Ever wants to hear, right? Nobody wants to hear, like, well, are you still saying your prayers? You know, it's like. It feels condescending. It feels like, oh, don't give me church answers. Don't give me church words. But underneath prayer, like, just think about, like, there's. There's a humility, right? There's a humility there. That's what the Lord's really after. I think with prayer is humble yourself. It's only when you're humble that you're going to have the clarity to be able to work through this issue in a way that you'll never look back and regret. Like Thomas B. Marsh regretted his course of action. He regretted his rejection of verse 10, his rejection of a couple other verses about sustaining the prophet Joseph in section 112. And that was 20 years, right? Almost. It's like 19 years and something. Months of regret, of loss. He came back. He didn't try to become the president of the 12 again. He just said, I just want to be a member of the this church. Like, that'll be enough for me. And we're grateful. We're grateful that he came back. But just think about what we lost. Think about what we lost because Thomas B. Marsh did not apply the principles of Section 1 12. May we be wiser than Thomas B. Marsh.

A (76:29)

Well said. I think that was our first episode. We'll come back and cover sections 113 and 114 and what might be a little shorter episode. But we do want to give them their due because there's some very, very good stuff in those sections as well. So until next time, Scott, we'll see you then.

B (76:45)

All right, see you over in episode two. Thanks, Casey.