Church History Matters – Episode 160

D&C 111-112: How God Works With Our Mistakes
Hosts: Scott and Casey (Scripture Central)
Episode Date: September 30, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Doctrine and Covenants sections 111 and 112, exploring pivotal and tumultuous moments in Latter-day Saint Church history: the mounting financial crisis in Kirtland, the failed quest for monetary relief in Salem, Massachusetts, and the spiritual fallout resulting in the Kirtland apostasy. Through historical analysis and discussion, Scott and Casey illuminate how God can work through human mistakes, the complexities of early Church leadership, and lessons about faith, humility, and resilience in the face of disappointment.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Financial Crisis and Kirtland Apostasy

• Background Context
  • Kirtland faces enormous debts (over $13,000 due to the Temple, Missouri assistance, and influx of impoverished converts [03:30]).
  • Joseph Smith’s desperate “Hail Mary” journey to Salem is motivated by the urgent need to find funds to rescue the Church from insolvency.
  • The Kirtland Safety Society (a church-sponsored financial institution) subsequently fails, contributing to widespread disillusionment and apostasy ([03:00], [31:25]).
• Magnitude of the Kirtland Apostasy
  • The most dramatic event in early LDS history outside the martyrdom, with a third of leaders and 10–15% of members leaving ([04:14], [05:08]).
  • "By the time the smoke settles, all three of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon have been excommunicated or disaffiliated. Five apostles, one member of the First Presidency." – Casey [04:18]
  • Leadership is proportionally more affected than general membership.

2. D&C 111: Joseph Smith’s Journey to Salem

• Historical Context: Why Salem?
  • The trip’s purpose is debated—most likely motivated by a rumor about hidden treasure that could resolve Church debts ([05:56]).
  • Primary historical sources are secondhand and sometimes hostile; no contemporary document states the precise purpose ([08:27]).
  • Hostile and late sources (James Brewster, Ebenezer Robinson) allege pursuit of lost treasure, but are corroborated in part by Joseph’s own letters and financial notes ([08:34], [11:01]).
  • Regardless of shaky sources, the revelation itself references “treasure” and the Lord’s feelings about the journey ([13:11]).
• Divine Response to Human Folly
  • God is “not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies” ([13:11]).
  • The Lord emphasizes spiritual over monetary treasure, hints at future missionary successes in Salem, and encourages learning from the city and its history ([17:24]).
  • Quote: “The Lord has a way of taking our mistakes and turning them into instructive experiences.” – Casey [18:39]
  • The revelation reframes what could be seen as a blunder into a moment for growth and deepened perspective.
• Consequences and Long-Term Lessons
  • No financial relief is found, but Joseph and companions develop a deeper appreciation for American religious freedom and the perils of intolerance ([22:45]–[25:44]).
  • Visits to Bunker Hill and the ruins of a recently destroyed Catholic convent leave lasting impressions, influencing Joseph’s later fierce advocacy for religious liberty (Council of 50 minutes, Nauvoo period) ([27:32]).
  • The Lord’s promise of gathering converts in Salem is eventually fulfilled when Erastus Snow and Benjamin Winchester baptize 90 people there in 1842 ([25:44]).
• Takeaway:
  • Church leaders took a “big swing” that didn’t connect financially, but the Lord used it for lasting good ([21:32]).

3. D&C 112: Leadership, Humility, and Fallout in Kirtland

• Immediate Context
  • Given to Thomas B. Marsh, original president of the Quorum of the Twelve, in the middle of Kirtland’s dissent and confusion over lines of Church authority ([28:53]).
  • Discontent over overseas missions (Heber C. Kimball sent to England without Quorum input), and the Kirtland Safety Society’s collapse spark tensions between Joseph Smith and leading apostles (especially Marsh).
• Revelatory Guidance to Marsh and the 12
  • The Lord acknowledges Marsh’s sincere prayers but chastises some personal attitudes ([35:56]).
    • “There have been some few things in thine heart and with thee, with which I the Lord was not well pleased. Nevertheless, inasmuch as thou hast abased thyself, thou shalt be exalted. Therefore all thy sins are forgiven thee.” ([35:56])
  • The Lord calls Marsh and the apostles to humility as the path to spiritual recovery ([39:22], [74:18]).
  • Clarifies relationships among First Presidency, Twelve, and Church government ([53:25], [54:18]).
  • Predicts that “from my house shall [judgment] go forth” – i.e., disciplinary fallout will affect leaders before the world ([54:18], [56:34]).
• Memorable Apostasy Stories
  • Thomas B. Marsh:
    • Deeply involved in disputes, including the possibly overblown “cream strippings” incident; later says real cause was jealousy and pride ([41:41], [44:31]).
    • Marsh’s own later reflection:
      • “I became jealous of the prophet…then I saw double and overlooked everything that was right and spent all my time in looking for the evil… The carnal mind rose up—which is anger, jealousy, and wrath…” ([41:41])
    • He returns to the Church two decades later in 1857, expressing regret and humility ([73:33]).
  • Parley P. Pratt:
    • Nearly lost his testimony due to financial ruin and personal hardship, but was called back by convert John Taylor:
      • “If the work was true six months ago…it's true today. And if Joseph Smith was then a prophet, he's now a prophet. Booyah.” – John Taylor ([47:55])
    • Parley repents, reconciles with Joseph Smith, and learns compassion for future strugglers ([47:55]).
  • Brigham Young:
    • Recalls his faith being momentarily shaken, but chooses to “repent of [his] unbelief,” emphasizing humility and mental flexibility as keys to survival ([65:46]).
    • “It was not for me to question whether Joseph was dictated by the Lord at all times and under all circumstances or not… He’s God’s servant, not mine.” ([65:46])

4. Key Themes & Lessons

• God's Work Through Mistakes
  • God does not expect perfection—even from prophets. Initiative, even if flawed, can serve a holy purpose, and humility is more important than flawless choices ([20:00]).
  • “I think the Lord likes it when we take initiative and use our own brains and try to solve problems… sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't, but that's okay.” – Scott [20:00]
• The Actual Pattern of Apostasy
  • Failed expectations and violated assumptions about prophetic infallibility or temporal guarantees are often the real triggers for disillusionment ([63:10]).
  • Financial hardship acts as a crucible—testing not only loyalty but the depth and flexibility of one’s faith.
  • The enduring solution is humility, prayer, and willingness to update assumptions rather than harden one’s heart ([65:46], [74:18]).
  • “Ask the Lord to help you as you work through modifying your assumptions in light of this new experience that you're having that has hurt your faith.” – Scott [00:13], [65:46]
• Redemption, Return, and Reconciliation
  • About half of those who left eventually return. Church culture is encouraged to welcome and forgive the returning, as Brigham Young did for Marsh ([73:33]).
  • “If we're staying faithful and are on the path, we can rejoice when anybody comes back to the church.” – Casey [21:21], [73:33]
• Historical Nuance and Human Complexity
  • Do not reduce historical figures to caricatures or single stories; acknowledge layered motives, pressures, and the capacity for growth ([44:31], [45:20]).
  • “Let's let people be complicated…that are a lot like us.” – Scott [45:20]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The Lord has a way of taking our mistakes and turning them into instructive experiences.” – Casey [18:39]
• “I think that's a cool little glimpse into the character of Christ.” – Scott [00:06]; regarding God’s response to honest human effort
• “Ask the Lord to help you as you work through modifying your assumptions in light of this new experience that you're having that has hurt your faith.” – Scott [00:13]
• “Back to section 58, where the Lord said, I don't have to command you in all things…The Lord likes it when we take initiative and use our own brains and try to solve problems…sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't, but that's okay.” – Scott [20:00]
• “If the work was true six months ago, it's true today. And if Joseph Smith was then a prophet, he's now a prophet. Booyah." – John Taylor [47:55]
• “It is not for me to question whether Joseph was dictated by the Lord at all times…He’s God’s servant, not mine.” – Brigham Young [65:46]
• “Let's let people be complicated. Let's let people be complex that are a lot like us.” – Scott [45:20]
• “If we're staying faithful and are on the path, we can rejoice when anybody comes back to the church.” – Casey [21:21]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:00–06:00] – Kirtland’s financial crisis, church debt, setting up context for D&C 111
• [08:30–12:43] – Debating the treasure story: analyzing the motives for the Salem trip, sources discussed
• [13:11–18:39] – The Lord’s response to the Salem journey; reframing “folly” as instructive, modern application
• [22:45–28:26] – Experiential and historical lessons from Salem, impressions on Joseph Smith
• [31:25–35:56] – Kirtland Safety Society failure, spiritual fallout, Thomas B. Marsh’s struggle
• [39:22–44:31] – The “cream strippings” story and Marsh’s admission of jealousy as the real cause of apostasy
• [47:55] – Parley P. Pratt and John Taylor: friendship and faith amid crisis
• [53:25–54:18] – Clarifying authority between First Presidency and the Twelve
• [56:34–58:11] – Brigham Young confronts anti-Joseph sentiment, keys of the dispensation restated
• [65:46–70:58] – Brigham Young’s attitude towards prophetic imperfection, humility as a survival skill in crisis
• [73:33–74:18] – Reconciliation: Thomas B. Marsh returns, Church’s posture towards repentance

Tone and Style

• Engaged, warm, historically rigorous but approachable
• Willingness to tackle controversy and complexity with candor
• Encouragement for listeners to retain faith through uncertainty and to embrace human imperfection

For Listeners New to the Episode

This episode of Church History Matters provides rich, candid insight into a vulnerable and defining moment in Latter-day Saint history. Whether you’re curious about how early Church leaders navigated financial disaster, want to understand the psychological roots of apostasy, or hope to glean faith-promoting lessons about repentance and resilience, this conversation offers accessible context, relevant quotes, and practical wisdom for modern challenges. The message—God’s work can move forward even through mistakes, and humility is the anchor of faith—is as timely now as it was in Kirtland.